Heineken Cup Round 1 (Pool 4): Ulster v Castres - Friday 12th 8pm

First topic message reminder :

Initial squad announced from Ulster, and Ruan is back! I would have thought he required resting, will he really play a part? Williams hasn't yet been ruled out so there is hope yet.

FORWARDS (16):
Rob Herring, Rory Best, Nigel Brady, Neil McComb, John Afoa, Tom Court, Adam Macklin, Callum Black, Johann Muller, Dan Tuohy, Lewis Stevenson, Stephen Ferris, Mike McComish, Iain Henderson, Chris Henry, Nick Williams.

BACKS (11):
Ruan Pienaar, Paul Marshall, Michael Heaney, Paddy Jackson, Paddy Wallace, Darren Cave, Luke Marshall, Andrew Trimble, Tommy Bowe, Craig Gilroy, Jared Payne.

Has Trimble really done enough to warrant a place at the expense of Gilroy?


Castres are sitting at 6th in Top14, only winning half their games so far.

Pedrie might not play on Ravenhill again. I'm not sure of his status, but he did not feature in their squad last week. injured?

By the way, Castres just beat Clermont! Were Clermont resting players?

We SHOULD win this based on form.

SUFTUM

HAHA!! I'll take that back. Pienaar in with the winning BP try in the 82nd minute.

41 - 17 FT

Lovely try at the death there Ulster, bit suprised about those second half tactics, but it all worked out well in the end

So two games down with French teams playing in them and both have had quite a lot of...niggle. Very old school ethos in the T14 clubs

Artful_Dodger wrote:Sorry nathan I thought your post was insinuating he'd done nothing wrong.

no probs, was that a mood swing in effect. before and after the last try! lol

Congrats Ulster!

Stand Up For The Scrumhalf Men!

Well done O's and Ulster - both get BP wins

Very frustrating second half, but I was jumping for joy there at the end.

The Castres defence just gave up there at the end from the looks of things, Pienaar basically jogged through the middle of two defenders.

Cari wrote:Well done O's and Ulster - both get BP wins

Thanks Cari - congrats to you and the Ospreys too!

Jared Payne... great signing

Jared Payne needs a kick up the arse for his mistiming.

Bit of a thrashing dished out, good work Ulster. Defintely one of my favourite teams to watch this season when they play this style of rugby. Would be great for Irish rugby for a 3rd team to win the Heineken Cup and Ulster can certainly go out and do that.

Ladies and gents my voice is horse from those dying minutes!!!!!

Morgannwg wrote:Bit of a thrashing dished out, good work Ulster. Defintely one of my favourite teams to watch this season when they play this style of rugby. Would be great for Irish rugby for a 3rd team to win the Heineken Cup and Ulster can certainly go out and do that.

Eh sorry? Leinster were the third team. I think you mean Connacht. Not sure if they're gonna get out of their group though....

Morgannwg wrote:Bit of a thrashing dished out, good work Ulster. Defintely one of my favourite teams to watch this season when they play this style of rugby. Would be great for Irish rugby for a 3rd team to win the Heineken Cup and Ulster can certainly go out and do that.

Ulster were the first Irish province to win the HC Morgan.

No, I won't.

Oh alright then.

Henderson was utterly brilliant tonight. Not really fussed where he plays just so long as we let him settle and don't throw him about all over the pack.

Just watched the game again on the telly this time as MrP hadn't got to see it. I was a bit mean and didn't let him know that we got the TBP in the end.

Great match. Fantastic atmosphere at Ravenhill tonight.

Really chuffed that we got the 5 points. I think we will need all of them to get through.



Lovely to see Pedrie back at Ravenhill even though he was wearing the wrong shirt! And, what terrible shirts! At the ground it looked like they had no numbers on them. Infact, it looked like they had all forgotten to put their shirts on and had come out in just their body armour stuff.

And...

How funny was it listening to Dewi Morris trying to pronounce Mike McComish's name?

McCumbash????

Thought small was fairly poor re. the cards. How we got binned in the castres 22 beggars belief. Right result in the end even if we made hard work of it. Bonus points/trys not required next week, just 4 points. We have that in us. In fairness I applaud the decision making at the end. Previously we would have Ballsed that up. Over to you , munster, Leinster, Connacht.. Eire Abu!

Pot Hale wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Bit of a thrashing dished out, good work Ulster. Defintely one of my favourite teams to watch this season when they play this style of rugby. Would be great for Irish rugby for a 3rd team to win the Heineken Cup and Ulster can certainly go out and do that.

Eh sorry? Leinster were the third team. I think you mean Connacht. Not sure if they're gonna get out of their group though....

Big error by me... Meant to say the third Irish team to win two Heineken cups didn't I!

I feel like we have a long way to go as a team. We ended up playing Castres at their own game tonight in the second half, pick and gos, taking a lot of contact. We never got the offloading game going and we struggle to break down organised defences. Even when we get into good positions we are too prone to turning the ball over cheaply. Castres' ball retention was outstanding in our 22 by way of contrast.

I'm not too worried about this if we keep winning, although I would have been incredibly frustrated had we missed out on the BP, because I genuinely do believe we can improve about 30 to 40%. And if we can do that we will become an incredibly tough side to beat. We're kind of going along playing below our potential right now. I feel like we haven't gotten out of third gear yet this season.

I really enjoyed the match, Castres looked shell shocked in the first 20 but they came back very strongly. They have a wonderful pack of forwards, it was a colossally physical match, and they really defended very well and put us under a lot of pressure when they had the ball in the red zone. Both of their tries were very well constructed. They'll be a very tough proposition at home, glad we have them in Round 6. Castres vs Saints is going to be tasty. Really big battle up front in store for next week. I would back Castres at home based on that!

I agree and disagree notch. I am slightly more optimistic in that I feel they got so Many phases as. Resu,t of the scoreline but. I agree we should have been much more clinical.

Here's a call........

I wouldn't start Pienaar next week. In fairness to marshall he earned the start and Marshalls kicking sS sublime. Big shout to Henderson, Marshall L and jackson. All made significant contributions

We have a lot to work on, a lot. The good news is we are winning whilst playing well below what we are capable of.

It's there for us. Much more to come notch!

I do think having Ferris and Williams in our backrow would have made a big difference in terms of carrying. How could it not? Those two are big lads. And both should be fit for next week.

Oh and Iain Henderson... that'll do for a home debut! He's going to be some player.

Agreed!

I wouldn't start Pienaar next week. In fairness to marshall he earned the start

He deserved his man of the match award. I think Pienaar actually slowed the tempo down to much and that benefited Castres. With Jackson nailing his kicks I see no advantage for you guys in bringing Pienaar back in at 9 unless Marshall's form drops.

Questions would have to be asked of why Castres played on beyond the 80 minutes as they had no chance of any form of BP. The only possible beneficiary could be Ulster. What was going on? Was there not a clock on display or was the ref being given a separate feed?

Good result for Ulster all the same as they played all the creative stuff.
But I was left getting splinters behind my nails with the noddle scratching.

Anyone have a link to highlights? I missed the game, we were out getting our assess handed to us by Lansdowne...

Thought young Henderson was fantastic in the junior world cup, and he was fantastic again last night - fantastic prospect. Marshall also excellent - himself and Reddan are the two best SH's in the country but will Kidney even notice?

greytiger wrote:Questions would have to be asked of why Castres played on beyond the 80 minutes as they had no chance of any form of BP. The only possible beneficiary could be Ulster. What was going on? Was there not a clock on display or was the ref being given a separate feed?

Good result for Ulster all the same as they played all the creative stuff.
But I was left getting splinters behind my nails with the noddle scratching.

I totally agree. There was a proper "game" clock so no excuse for Castre.

I said the same thing the other day when, was it Leinster v Munster? Munster got away with it whereas Castre did not. At the time several supporters thought it was a good idea from a "pride" point of view to keep on playing after the 80 with no chance of a LBP and every chance of the other team getting a TBP.

I think it was madness but I won't complain unless Ulster do the same thing some day!!!!

MrsP wrote:

greytiger wrote:Questions would have to be asked of why Castres played on beyond the 80 minutes as they had no chance of any form of BP. The only possible beneficiary could be Ulster. What was going on? Was there not a clock on display or was the ref being given a separate feed?

Good result for Ulster all the same as they played all the creative stuff.
But I was left getting splinters behind my nails with the noddle scratching.

I totally agree. There was a proper "game" clock so no excuse for Castre.

I said the same thing the other day when, was it Leinster v Munster? Munster got away with it whereas Castre did not. At the time several supporters thought it was a good idea from a "pride" point of view to keep on playing after the 80 with no chance of a LBP and every chance of the other team getting a TBP.

I think it was madness but I won't complain unless Ulster do the same thing some day!!!!

Thanks for the clarification MrsP.
Sounds then that Castres were thoroughly unprofessional in their game management. That BP could be decisive and it's a free gift to Ulster.

Well done Ulster,they are really turning into a very good team.I don't think they're yet good enough to win the HC but with the rate of improvement they've shown this year they could easily be at that level come April.

Castres just wanted to show some pride in the jersey. We were very lucky they did. But they had nothing to lose- I get the sense they are targeting the Top14 and don't expect to be in the running in this group- and they wanted to fight. It's a natural instinct.

The same thing actually did happen to Ulster. A game at Thomond Park a few seasons ago, we kept the ball alive after 80 minutes got turned over and conceded a fourth try.

I thought Castres would be disinterested last night, but they were anything but. Very committed performance from that big pack.

This thing about the French club being disinterested has gone beyond a parody. Any time they don't play well it is because they target the Top 14. Could it not be that actually French rugby is in a bad old shape right now? Apart from maybe four French sides the rest are very, very average and have been for the past five years or so. One only needs to look at the shape of the national team to see the standard of French rugby is nowhere near where it is in the minds of the press and some supporters. France of course got to the World Cup final, but so did England in 2007 so that is not a good indicator of where they are right now.

I was at the game and had two thoughts I wonder if anyone shares them. Firstly we will need to be a hell of a lot more clinical if we want to get out of the group. The bonus point should have been wrapped up about 10-15 minutes before it was. Some very poor backline play and bad throws at the lineouts.
Secondly I cannot remember the last time I saw as poor a referee at the breakdown. It was an absolutely appalling performance from the ref.

You really have to question how Kidney can continue to judge Paul Marshall as being behind Murray, Boss and Redden.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:This thing about the French club being disinterested has gone beyond a parody. Any time they don't play well it is because they target the Top 14. Could it not be that actually French rugby is in a bad old shape right now?

Given that Castres changed 10 of the starting 15 from the side that beat Clermont last week, I think in this case it is very much them concentrating on the Top 14.

The number of changes is utterly irrelevant- it's the quality of change that is important. Castres changed a lot of average players for average players. On the other hand didn't Clermont and Toulouse rest players for the first round of matches? French disinterest is exaggerated.

I'm sorry, but that just isn't the case, Castres rested a large chunk of their first choice side for this game, particularly in key positions.

I don't want to detract from what was a decisive win by Ulster (personally I reckon they'll top the group), but Castres' management don't seem to be concentrating on this competition, at least not their away games.

Castres didnt throw away this game but at the same time didnt target it as a must-win one. They thought they had little chance to get away with anything and decided they might as well rotate a bit (at 9 and 8 mainly). happens only at away games and quite common in the T14. what they seem to forgot is that there is only 6 games in the HC groups and any BP is crucial. so imo you are both right...aint it nice

gelodge wrote:I'm sorry, but that just isn't the case, Castres rested a large chunk of their first choice side for this game, particularly in key positions..

What I meant was the team that took the pitch did not look disinterested. They showed a lot of commitment and fight. This level of rotation isn't unusual at all. Will only become more common because our season is about 10-12 games too long at club level.

gelodge wrote:I'm sorry, but that just isn't the case, Castres rested a large chunk of their first choice side for this game, particularly in key positions.

I don't want to detract from what was a decisive win by Ulster (personally I reckon they'll top the group), but Castres' management don't seem to be concentrating on this competition, at least not their away games.

Castres and Racing rotated this many players in the competition last year. They have enormous squads so not sure how you can put it down to rotation losing them the game. It didn't seem to have a big effect last season. I agree with Hookisms. Only Toulouse look like the exception, and perhaps Toulon.

Ulster were the better team, but I thought the score-line flattered them. Castre must have thought it was Christmas the way they gifted them that 4th try.

5pts is a great start though - and looking at the performances of Leinster (so far) and Munster today, Ulster have re-affirmed their position as the form province. I wonder though how many of their players will be selected by Kidney?

gelodge wrote:I'm sorry, but that just isn't the case, Castres rested a large chunk of their first choice side for this game, particularly in key positions.

I don't want to detract from what was a decisive win by Ulster (personally I reckon they'll top the group), but Castres' management don't seem to be concentrating on this competition, at least not their away games.

gelodge wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:This thing about the French club being disinterested has gone beyond a parody. Any time they don't play well it is because they target the Top 14. Could it not be that actually French rugby is in a bad old shape right now?

Given that Castres changed 10 of the starting 15 from the side that beat Clermont last week, I think in this case it is very much them concentrating on the Top 14.

Sorry, you are completely inaccurate here. Castres makes changes for every match- a lot of changes. They haven't won a single match on the road this season and the match against Ulster was no different.

Just to take the last handful of matches. They played Biarritz on 15 September and made 9 changes to the previous games against Stade. On the 22 against Toulon they made 8 changes. The following week they played Montpellier and made 13 changes to the previous week. They then made another 11 changes against Clermont. So no, this has nothing to do with the European Cup and everything to do with having a very average squad. If you watched them at all you would know that the only real changes for the Ulster match where quality players were changed was Tekori and Kockott who is their top scorer I think. That said he missed something like six penalties against Clermont so if it was a French league match he may have been dropped anyway.

Lawyered.

Morgannwg wrote:

gelodge wrote:I'm sorry, but that just isn't the case, Castres rested a large chunk of their first choice side for this game, particularly in key positions.

I don't want to detract from what was a decisive win by Ulster (personally I reckon they'll top the group), but Castres' management don't seem to be concentrating on this competition, at least not their away games.

Castres and Racing rotated this many players in the competition last year. They have enormous squads so not sure how you can put it down to rotation losing them the game. It didn't seem to have a big effect last season. I agree with Hookisms. Only Toulouse look like the exception, and perhaps Toulon.

I didn't say that all, just that they had prioritised the Top 14 over this game (and maybe the competition with Ulster & Northampton in their group), so had rested key players accordingly. I would have backed Ulster to win this game at home whatever side Castres turned out, something I think Castres thought as well, hence their decision.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

gelodge wrote:I'm sorry, but that just isn't the case, Castres rested a large chunk of their first choice side for this game, particularly in key positions.

I don't want to detract from what was a decisive win by Ulster (personally I reckon they'll top the group), but Castres' management don't seem to be concentrating on this competition, at least not their away games.

gelodge wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:This thing about the French club being disinterested has gone beyond a parody. Any time they don't play well it is because they target the Top 14. Could it not be that actually French rugby is in a bad old shape right now?

Given that Castres changed 10 of the starting 15 from the side that beat Clermont last week, I think in this case it is very much them concentrating on the Top 14.

Sorry, you are completely inaccurate here. Castres makes changes for every match- a lot of changes. They haven't won a single match on the road this season and the match against Ulster was no different.

Just to take the last handful of matches. They played Biarritz on 15 September and made 9 changes to the previous games against Stade. On the 22 against Toulon they made 8 changes. The following week they played Montpellier and made 13 changes to the previous week. They then made another 11 changes against Clermont. So no, this has nothing to do with the European Cup and everything to do with having a very average squad. If you watched them at all you would know that the only real changes for the Ulster match where quality players were changed was Tekori and Kockott who is their top scorer I think. That said he missed something like six penalties against Clermont so if it was a French league match he may have been dropped anyway.

Lawyered.

Wow, that last point was really quite a childish turn of phrase. I think that's a cue to just ignore your posts from here on in.

The fact of the matter is that that wasn't Castres' best side out yesterday, anyone picking a 15 from their squad more likely to challenge Ulster would have selected a number of different players. They hadn't prioritised the game.

MrsP wrote:And, what terrible shirts! At the ground it looked like they had no numbers on them. In fact, it looked like they had all forgotten to put their shirts on and had come out in just their body armour stuff.

Totally agree with the poor shirts MrsP. Even the commentators said it was difficult to see the numbers on the back. As you can tell from my updates on here, they were no better on the telly either (and I had a decent stream!).

gelodge wrote:Wow, that last point was really quite a childish turn of phrase. I think that's a cue to just ignore your posts from here on in.

The fact of the matter is that that wasn't Castres' best side out yesterday, anyone picking a 15 from their squad more likely to challenge Ulster would have selected a number of different players. They hadn't prioritised the game.

I know you are but what I am? And my dad is better than your dad.

If you want to ignore facts by all means go ahead. You seem to know what Castres best side is even though it is quite clear the Castres coaching staff haven't a clue themselves considering they make so many changes every single week. You actually don't have a shred of evidence to suggest they did or didn't prioritise the match. They are a mid table side without a win away from home in any competition for a reason. They are a hugely average side throughout the squad, and the numbers of changes made are irrelevant when they swap one average player for another. They make a high number of changes every week because they have a large squad of players on a relatively level skill set.

But by all means, pick whatever argument suits you.

gelodge wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

gelodge wrote:I'm sorry, but that just isn't the case, Castres rested a large chunk of their first choice side for this game, particularly in key positions.

I don't want to detract from what was a decisive win by Ulster (personally I reckon they'll top the group), but Castres' management don't seem to be concentrating on this competition, at least not their away games.

gelodge wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:This thing about the French club being disinterested has gone beyond a parody. Any time they don't play well it is because they target the Top 14. Could it not be that actually French rugby is in a bad old shape right now?

Given that Castres changed 10 of the starting 15 from the side that beat Clermont last week, I think in this case it is very much them concentrating on the Top 14.

Sorry, you are completely inaccurate here. Castres makes changes for every match- a lot of changes. They haven't won a single match on the road this season and the match against Ulster was no different.

Just to take the last handful of matches. They played Biarritz on 15 September and made 9 changes to the previous games against Stade. On the 22 against Toulon they made 8 changes. The following week they played Montpellier and made 13 changes to the previous week. They then made another 11 changes against Clermont. So no, this has nothing to do with the European Cup and everything to do with having a very average squad. If you watched them at all you would know that the only real changes for the Ulster match where quality players were changed was Tekori and Kockott who is their top scorer I think. That said he missed something like six penalties against Clermont so if it was a French league match he may have been dropped anyway.

Lawyered.

Wow, that last point was really quite a childish turn of phrase. I think that's a cue to just ignore your posts from here on in.

The fact of the matter is that that wasn't Castres' best side out yesterday, anyone picking a 15 from their squad more likely to challenge Ulster would have selected a number of different players. They hadn't prioritised the game.

Sorry but having read the above your argument has just been s**t canned mate.