Heineken Cup Round 1 (Pool 4): Ulster v Castres - Friday 12th 8pm

First topic message reminder :

Initial squad announced from Ulster, and Ruan is back! I would have thought he required resting, will he really play a part? Williams hasn't yet been ruled out so there is hope yet.

FORWARDS (16):
Rob Herring, Rory Best, Nigel Brady, Neil McComb, John Afoa, Tom Court, Adam Macklin, Callum Black, Johann Muller, Dan Tuohy, Lewis Stevenson, Stephen Ferris, Mike McComish, Iain Henderson, Chris Henry, Nick Williams.

BACKS (11):
Ruan Pienaar, Paul Marshall, Michael Heaney, Paddy Jackson, Paddy Wallace, Darren Cave, Luke Marshall, Andrew Trimble, Tommy Bowe, Craig Gilroy, Jared Payne.

Has Trimble really done enough to warrant a place at the expense of Gilroy?


Castres are sitting at 6th in Top14, only winning half their games so far.

Pedrie might not play on Ravenhill again. I'm not sure of his status, but he did not feature in their squad last week. injured?

By the way, Castres just beat Clermont! Were Clermont resting players?

We SHOULD win this based on form.

SUFTUM

Artful_Dodger wrote:

gelodge wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

gelodge wrote:I'm sorry, but that just isn't the case, Castres rested a large chunk of their first choice side for this game, particularly in key positions.

I don't want to detract from what was a decisive win by Ulster (personally I reckon they'll top the group), but Castres' management don't seem to be concentrating on this competition, at least not their away games.

gelodge wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:This thing about the French club being disinterested has gone beyond a parody. Any time they don't play well it is because they target the Top 14. Could it not be that actually French rugby is in a bad old shape right now?

Given that Castres changed 10 of the starting 15 from the side that beat Clermont last week, I think in this case it is very much them concentrating on the Top 14.

Sorry, you are completely inaccurate here. Castres makes changes for every match- a lot of changes. They haven't won a single match on the road this season and the match against Ulster was no different.

Just to take the last handful of matches. They played Biarritz on 15 September and made 9 changes to the previous games against Stade. On the 22 against Toulon they made 8 changes. The following week they played Montpellier and made 13 changes to the previous week. They then made another 11 changes against Clermont. So no, this has nothing to do with the European Cup and everything to do with having a very average squad. If you watched them at all you would know that the only real changes for the Ulster match where quality players were changed was Tekori and Kockott who is their top scorer I think. That said he missed something like six penalties against Clermont so if it was a French league match he may have been dropped anyway.

Lawyered.

Wow, that last point was really quite a childish turn of phrase. I think that's a cue to just ignore your posts from here on in.

The fact of the matter is that that wasn't Castres' best side out yesterday, anyone picking a 15 from their squad more likely to challenge Ulster would have selected a number of different players. They hadn't prioritised the game.

Sorry but having read the above your argument has just been s**t canned mate.

That's quite alright, you're welcome to your opinion. I'd point you to the comment from the French poster above:

whocares wrote:Castres didnt throw away this game but at the same time didnt target it as a must-win one. They thought they had little chance to get away with anything and decided they might as well rotate a bit

I'm sure you and Hookisms are both dedicated Top 14 followers and have a far better insight into Castres' squad though.

Well, it's true that a lot of those changes didn't weaken them much. But it's also true that they left their two best players on the bench.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

gelodge wrote:I'm sorry, but that just isn't the case, Castres rested a large chunk of their first choice side for this game, particularly in key positions.

I don't want to detract from what was a decisive win by Ulster (personally I reckon they'll top the group), but Castres' management don't seem to be concentrating on this competition, at least not their away games.

gelodge wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:This thing about the French club being disinterested has gone beyond a parody. Any time they don't play well it is because they target the Top 14. Could it not be that actually French rugby is in a bad old shape right now?

Given that Castres changed 10 of the starting 15 from the side that beat Clermont last week, I think in this case it is very much them concentrating on the Top 14.

Sorry, you are completely inaccurate here. Castres makes changes for every match- a lot of changes. They haven't won a single match on the road this season and the match against Ulster was no different.

Just to take the last handful of matches. They played Biarritz on 15 September and made 9 changes to the previous games against Stade. On the 22 against Toulon they made 8 changes. The following week they played Montpellier and made 13 changes to the previous week. They then made another 11 changes against Clermont. So no, this has nothing to do with the European Cup and everything to do with having a very average squad. If you watched them at all you would know that the only real changes for the Ulster match where quality players were changed was Tekori and Kockott who is their top scorer I think. That said he missed something like six penalties against Clermont so if it was a French league match he may have been dropped anyway.

Lawyered.

I don't think this takes into account injuries and how Castres and other similar less affluent French teams approach away games. Most of the games highlighted in this post are changing between home and away games. Castres rotate a fair bit, but with their comparitive lesser means (to the top French teams) concentrate on home games, which is where you will see the favoured side put out.

As with everyone else, I don't think a 'prime' Castres side would have faired any better. Ulster were always going to win this games, and with the bonus point did so well.

monwy wrote: I don't think this takes into account injuries and how Castres and other similar less affluent French teams approach away games. Most of the games highlighted in this post are changing between home and away games. Castres rotate a fair bit, but with their comparitive lesser means (to the top French teams) concentrate on home games, which is where you will see the favoured side put out.

As with everyone else, I don't think a 'prime' Castres side would have faired any better. Ulster were always going to win this games, and with the bonus point did so well.

Indeed you are right of course. My point was merely that the number of changes themselves mean nothing- its the quality of the changes that are vital. You can't just come out and say 'Oh, they made ten changes, they didn't target this match'. This could be true. As far as I could understand from my pretty average French the coaching staff actually said this group presented a real chance to get to the knock out stages, so why just throw away a match away from home quite so easily. The french disinterest is a parody. Its one of those things lazy fans and even lazier journalists trot out when they can't explain things simply. We have it here in Ireland. Five or six years ago it was that Munster players gave more in red than they do in green. Now its the Leinster players. Some fans point to this as an easy explanation as to why we constantly underachieve. Its laziness and doesn't address core problems.

As I said they only real surprised for anyone who has watched Castres this season would have been leaving out Tekori and Kockott. Tekori I don't really understand, they must have been resting him pure and simple as he was on the bench. Kockott is their top scorer and I would have expected him to start but he was pretty poor agains Clermont and missed so many points in that match.

They played Toulon away and then Montpellier away back to back before the played Clermont. They changed 13 players between the two away matches and 11 for Clermont. So you might say that they targeted the home match against Clermont. You would expect their teams for the home matches against Clermont and Biarritz to be similar therefore as two home matches they 'targeted'. They really aren't. Maybe we have to assume the same selection criteria we have in UK & Ireland is simply different in France and we shouldn't judge them accordingly.

Standulstermen wrote:I agree and disagree notch. I am slightly more optimistic in that I feel they got so Many phases as. Resu,t of the scoreline but. I agree we should have been much more clinical.

Here's a call........

I wouldn't start Pienaar next week. In fairness to marshall he earned the start and Marshalls kicking sS sublime. Big shout to Henderson, Marshall L and jackson. All made significant contributions

Seconded, and your other 2 posts too. Spot on big man . Big performances from Trimble, Touhy, Bowe and Payne too.

Plenty to improve on but just the result to keep the wagon rumbling on.

SUFTUM!

P.S. Great to see Pedre back at Ravenhill and getting a great reception. He spent ages signing autographs after the match too. Class act .

I though you said he spent 'apes signing autographs' Rodders. You have no idea how many monkey puns I had lined up. Gutted

Did anyone else notice the guy in the Castre pitch side crew who ran on at pretty much every stoppage?

He had a "Medic" bib on but he was not tending to injured players or even bring on water. Everytime the whistle went he sprinted on to the pitch and talked on a Castre player and then made he way back to the technical area till the whistle went again. T'was the oddest thing!

Watched the hilights last night and by jeebus the 1st try and 4th try were belters.

Also I was sure it was Henry who was binned for taking down the maul but it was indeed Court. Time to pay specsavers a visit I think .

rodders wrote:Watched the hilights last night and by jeebus the 1st try and 4th try were belters.

Also I was sure it was Henry who was binned for taking down the maul but it was indeed Court. Time to pay specsavers a visit I think .

Were you not kinda confused when Callum Black came on and Mike McComish went off for the next scrum?



I reckon Chris Henry might be a bit offended!

Speaking of Chris Henry, I thought he was excellent on friday.

Lovely stepping from Luke Marshall and Ruan Pienaar in the fourth try. Luke Marshall did brilliantly. Castres were out on their feet though.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Speaking of Chris Henry, I thought he was excellent on friday.

Outstanding game from him. He needed to be the go-to man in the absence of Ferris, Williams and Wilson and he was in terms of ball carrying whilst doing his usual stint at the breakdown.

He deserves to start for Ireland in the AIs.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:He deserves to start for Ireland in the AIs.

Picking players in form for the Irish team? It'll never catch on.

U referring to Marshall Rory?

Any highlights online????

PM for Pete!

LEGEND

valjester wrote:

Rava wrote:

So are you saying we are unbeaten this season in spite of him?

No, read the rest of the sentence, if we want to compete with the best and win the Hec, we need Pienaar fit and firing at 9, Marshall won't be good enough in the tight games.

Val. pint for you mate.

Always helps when you have to eat your words

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:U referring to Marshall Rory?

Any highlights online????

Nah mate I was talking about Henry. Though Marshall deserves a look at as well, especially when Murray and Reddan play that poorly.

Notch wrote:Lovely stepping from Luke Marshall and Ruan Pienaar in the fourth try. Luke Marshall did brilliantly. Castres were out on their feet though.

This! a young man with very little top flight experience made the break, drew the man and gave the pass at the right time. Its easy to get into the Heineken mode and constantly pick our first XV with little gametime but anscombe seems content to trust these guys. We need to see him get a few more starts during the AI's. I genuinely dont know where Paddy will be and im not being down on him but its about succession planning now as well.

The culture of competition that seems to be growing in the squad is so important. Much more like the Leinster of last season when their '2nd string' were tearing up the rabo.

Standulstermen wrote:

Notch wrote:Lovely stepping from Luke Marshall and Ruan Pienaar in the fourth try. Luke Marshall did brilliantly. Castres were out on their feet though.

This! a young man with very little top flight experience made the break, drew the man and gave the pass at the right time. Its easy to get into the Heineken mode and constantly pick our first XV with little gametime but anscombe seems content to trust these guys. We need to see him get a few more starts during the AI's. I genuinely dont know where Paddy will be and im not being down on him but its about succession planning now as well.

The culture of competition that seems to be growing in the squad is so important. Much more like the Leinster of last season when their '2nd string' were tearing up the rabo.

Marshall is looking really good, I don't think he should be starting for Ulster as Paddy is pretty damn good but I like the idea of him coming off the bench with 25 to go or so and showing us what he is made of.

For the record ever since that first game in the Aviva I have felt Luke Marshall will be a long term holder of the Irish 12 jersey.

Speaking of Marshalls and Ireland.

Surely Kidney can't go on believeing Paul Marshall is behind Redden , Boss, and Murray.

Murray might be the best of the bunch, but i will always find it hard to like players who do what he did on saturday. Very cynical and seriously poor sports-manship.

clivemcl wrote:Speaking of Marshalls and Ireland.

Surely Kidney can't go on believeing Paul Marshall is behind Redden , Boss, and Murray.

Murray might be the best of the bunch, but i will always find it hard to like players who do what he did on saturday. Very cynical and seriously poor sports-manship.

Clive, he can and probably will

Looks like the Ravens are set to mirror the senior teams form this season. Our depth is just a thing of beauty all of a sudden!

Good times!

So Ravens beat the Ravens, sure there's only one Ravens team.

Rava wrote:

clivemcl wrote:Speaking of Marshalls and Ireland.

Surely Kidney can't go on believeing Paul Marshall is behind Redden , Boss, and Murray.

Murray might be the best of the bunch, but i will always find it hard to like players who do what he did on saturday. Very cynical and seriously poor sports-manship.

Clive, he can and probably will

Ah, come on, Clive. You know how it works. It's the same as Darcy.

Murray is the Irish Scrumhalf Elect. So if he is in poor form, he gets as many games as he needs to "play himself back into form". He will eventually, if nothing else but by the law of averages, have a good/very good/great game. He will then be declared "back to his old self" or "back to his best". The decision to keep him playing, according to the Irish management, will have been vindicated. In the interim, no new 9s (Marshall, Marmion) will get an opportunity - this lack of experience will then be used further down the line to keep selecting the same old same old.

I'm sceptical about Marshall at international level - I'm not convinced it will work. But he has absolutely earned the right to show what he can do.

Marshall, if he keeps this form should start for Ireland, but a lot can happen before the 10th November

Murray was lucky not to be Yellowed carded twice ( and Irish indpentant blamed him for Munster losing the game), Redden and most of the Leinster team failed to impress so far, Boss not playing at moment, only one i'm not sure about is O'Leary and I think hes been doing ok for london Irish, but they haven't been going to well.

With Marshall getting Man of the Match, I don't think Pienaar will start next week, how can you build a guys performances if he knows no matter how well he does he'll be dropped for a fit Pienaar, he's earned the start next week.

Currently there is no other Irish scrum half that is playing at a level to keep Pienaar out of the team, if he keep this up he should be starting for Ireland.

12 for Ireland is another thing, will we see D'arcy back? or Wallace? Marshall? Mcfadden? Aut Internations are times to experiment, ready for the 6 nations, so I'd expect Ireland to try the 2 Marshalls, Gilroy etc, but don't really expect Kidney to.

Rava wrote:

clivemcl wrote:Speaking of Marshalls and Ireland.

Surely Kidney can't go on believeing Paul Marshall is behind Redden , Boss, and Murray.

Murray might be the best of the bunch, but i will always find it hard to like players who do what he did on saturday. Very cynical and seriously poor sports-manship.

Clive, he can and probably will

I think you forgot to add O'Leary in there in front of Marshall as well.

As is Tony Buckley, probably.

Don Alfonso wrote:As is Tony Buckley, probably.

Buckley could probably whip the ball away from the breakdown quicker than O'Leary and Murray.

http://kidneyclock.net/

Not long now lads!

Would Kidney be snapped up by an English club? I'd say his record at club level would land him a good job.
But Woodward and EOS haven't had the clubs calling out for them.

Think EOS is in line for Connacht, and will be able to carry on a good job there.

But who next for the Ireland job?

Connor O'Shea?
Would Josef Schmidt want to step up?

Schmidt would be fantastic but he has just agreed to stay at the third best Irish province till the end of next season.

Ulster heve now climbed to 5th in the unofficial European Rankings. We started this season in 14th place. 5th is the lowest we have been since 2006. Our lowese ever position was in 2003/04.

http://www.eurorugby.com/index.php

Could it be that bad giving Paul Marshall a shot this Autum, he has matured well and upped his game. Should he not be rewarded for his performance so far and see if he maintains it. Or are we just going to go with the same old same old. Don't get me wrong if his performance did not justify it I would not be on here asking for him to be gien a shot.

I completely agree Exile. Marshall, Henry and dare I say it once again Paddy Wallace are putting their hands up for selection. Not many scrumhalves in the world could say they put Ruan Pienaar on the bench, on form alone (we'll ignore SA as Meyer and PdV seemed to think he wasn't worth their time for a while). Henry has been outstanding in every game he's played in and Wallace has found his verve and form, and is probably playing the best rugby of his career... He's certainly the form 12 in Ireland, and Griffen is probably the form 13...

I have a feeling Paul marshal will play but it will most likely be fore the Ireland XV against Fiji, I don't think kidney has the capacity to pick marshal as that is just too experimental, although he did do this with conor Murray. Kidney probably feels he is under scrutiny, as well he should, he will want wins and in his mind that means picking the old boys who he has trusted in the past.

Kidney won't pick Wallace, for the simple reason that he'll get bad press. This is a man trying desperately to hold onto his job. He'll pick the team that helps him do that

Besides, there's no point picking Wallace. He just doesn't fit into the Ireland backline. There's no real gameplan in the backs to speak of other than give it to someone and hope they do something with it without any support. Wallace isn't big enough to make major line breaks on his own in test rugby and he thrives on bringing other players into the game, which is redundant in a side where nobody runs support lines. Defences are more organised at international level and his footwork doesn't work the magic it works for Ulster. I don't even care who is picked from 11 to 15. It's a moot point.

Chris Henry should be starting at 7 for Ireland. Simple as that. A selection on form with a few on reputation would be something like;

1. Tom Court
2. Richardt Strauss
3. Mike Ross
4. Donnacha Ryan
5. Dan Tuohy
6. Stephen Ferris
7. Chris Henry
8. Jamie Heaslip
9. Paul Marshall
10. Jonathon Sexton
11. Simon Zebo
12. Fergus McFadden
13. Brian O'Driscoll (c)
14. Tommy Bowe
15. Rob Kearney

16. Rory Best 17. Cian Healy 18. Declan Fitzpatrick 19. Paul O'Connell 20. Peter O'Mahony 21. Eoin Reddan 22. Ian Madigan 23. Andrew Trimble

Also I see Robbie Diack, Declan Fitzpatrick and Michael Allen are back to "light" training again, this is good as Williams and ferris are looking good for this weekend as well has having roger Wilson back in contention, our back row is looking very strong again. That said McComish had a much better game that I though he was going to, it's wasn't fantastic but good. And with Declan back our front row is bolstered further.

Notch I'd almost be tempted by O'Callaghan in there... He's really adapted well to the Penney philosophy and has been in great form by all accounts.

And I get what you mean by Wallace not fitting into the Kidney gameplan... Similarly the same could be said about Madigan. He likes to run and pass, not kick and plays to bring in the others around him. But imagine if Ireland did play like that in the AI's???

Could Kidney change his tune and look at the style of rugby that has brought Leinster and Ulster up the ranks of European rugby and the style that his own province of Munster and even Connacht are trying to bring in... It would be a miracle but jesus we need one now more than ever...

But thats what he's been trying to do since 2010. He just can't. He doesn't understand how to do it.

I think the transformation at Ulster under Anscombe shows us two things.

You can't simply say that a player is of a certain level of quality and that is pre-defined. Look at how many players have upped their game. Players who were squad filler are suddenly more than decent.

Secondly you have to say that players abilities are in someway linked with the coach. Unless its a coincidence that many players at Ulster have just decided to be better players at the same time we got a new coach? I doubt it.

What does this lesson mean for Ireland?

A) A player playing below par in a below par club under a below par coach won't necessarily be below par internationally. And vice-verca.

B) If players don't perform for the international team, the coach HAS SOME PART IN THAT.

Personally speaking I think the Ireland team's problem is relational. I think some players don't get on well with kidney or with each other.

For example I always deduced (from on-field bust ups) that Trimble and BOD rubbed each other the wrong way, and recently I've had that theory validated by a friend of a friend.

A coach has to be a people manager, and create a healthy atmosphere. I don't think Kidney is doing this, and perhaps never did.

Possibly (and i hope not) Anscombe has not been here long enough to have had his bust ups yet.
Ali Birch has sank without a trace since getting a yellow in preseason

I tend to agree with Notch on the Ireland team, especially on Wallace. He has been the best 12 in Irish rugby for the better part of three seasons now because he helps to dictate how Ulster play. His distribution and reading of the game is what makes him effective for us. For Ireland Kidney deploys him as practically a crash ball merchant. Really the back row selection policy and the centres have shown the limitations of Kidney's coaching policy- his game plan might be fine when he picks the full side he wants, but when there are injuries he simply sticks with the plan and brings in new players regardless of whether they have the skill set to bring it in. The decision to bring in Paddy Wallace in the third test against New Zealand off the beach was one of the worst examples of team management and selection I have perhaps ever seen by an Irish coaching setup.

However, on Notch's team a) Fergus McFadden is nowhere near international standard b) O'Mahony is a long way from being international standard and was relatively poor in New Zealand c) Zebo is nowhere near international standard. I get it with Zebo, I really do. His try was glorious as Racing and he could be a world class winger in the future. Right now his defence is poor, his positional play is dreadful at times, and when the ball is kicked over his head his tracking back is poor. He needs to learn these basic skills for Munster before throwing him to the wolves in the international arena.

I'm going to be 'that guy' here that calls for Downey to play. Yes, yes, I know. He is a very limited player. Yes Rodders I preemptively hear you there- he isn't that great a player either. But if we pick the players for Kidney's tactics then he should be in the side. We may as well pick limited players to do a job effectively than better players not capable of doing it.

clivemcl wrote:
For example I always deduced (from on-field bust ups) that Trimble and BOD rubbed each other the wrong way, and recently I've had that theory validated by a friend of a friend.

Clive I know for an absolute money back guarantee fact that this is true. That's not to say they don't necessarily like each other, but they certainly get on. From what I have heard O'Driscoll rubs alot of players up the wrong way.

Clive - I was actually going to start a new topic on that. It’s well worth discussion.

I was really concerned about Ulster's backrow coming into the new season. Now, I am delighted with our talent and depth. Nick Williams has been much better than I dared hope for. Doyle seems solid, Wilson is a proven performer. Henderson has gone from Academy player to genuine. HEC option.

But the real reason we can now live comfortably with a multitude of injuries is that McComish will now do a solid job. He just started in a HEC backrow where we got a TBP against French opposition. Diack I can't wait to see back - his start to the season was a revelation. All those skills he has always possessed, but with an aggressive edge that we haven’t seen before. Handing off, tackling like a demon. Complete change of attitude.

The backrow is the most acute example, but the same goes for McComb and Black. If they started an important Rabo12 game, I’d be delighted to see them get meaningful game time, as opposed to fearing a tanking.

Everyone seems motivated. Everyone seems engaged.

toml wrote:Possibly (and i hope not) Anscombe has not been here long enough to have had his bust ups yet.
Ali Birch has sank without a trace since getting a yellow in preseason

Ali Birch has been injured and made his comeback for the Ravens at the weekend.