Englands EPS form

First topic message reminder :

Props
Dan Cole - Has firmly established himself as Tigers first choice ahead of Castro. gone well this season and was strong against Toulouse, though not as prominent at the breakdown as he often is. Form good.
Joe Marler - Receiving less comments about his loose play. while in part this is because he has been less prominent here this season (sensible hair cut making him less obvious?) is is also a reflection on how strong his scrummaging has been. form very good.
Alex Corbisiero - still injured.
David Wilson - Decent form for Bath, deserved his promotion following Stevens retirement.

Hookers
Dylan Hartley - Has been in very good form. The eye injury gave him a valuable rest - was excellent against Glasgow.
Rob Webber - Injured

Second Row
Courtney Lawes - coming back from injury well, initially at 6 but in the second row at the weekend. His lineout went well and the big tackles are again in evidence. Still needs to improve his ball carrying - Good form.
Geoff Parling - constantly being outshone by Kitchener at Tigers. One outstanding match this season - otherwise form pretty poor.
Mouritz Botha - form has not been great, Borthwick has been better for Sarries.
Tom Palmer - form has not been great, Wentzel and Launchbury have been better for Wasps.

Back Row
Chris Robshaw - good form, but in danger of being overplayed. Will need some downtime between the AIs and New Year.
Tom Johnson - in very good form for Exeter.
Phil Dowson - not sure, certainly has not shone.
Tom Wood - coming back from injury his form is not great.
Tom Croft - Injured
Thomas Waldrom - Decent from, but arguably second choice No8 at club.
Ben Morgan - I don't know. Has not been prominent when I have seen Glaws.


Half Backs
Danny Care - In very good form, though (as with most SHs) struggled a little when quins were on the back foot against Sarries.
Lee Dickson - Very good form. Very different style of SH to Care.
Ben Youngs - Coming back from injury, was ok against Sale but looked short of match fitness against Toulouse. Needs games.
Toby Flood - Form has fluctuated a little but overall has been decent. Goal kicking has been v good.
Owen Farrell - A thigh injury has disrupted the start to the season. Sarries look better with Hodgson at 10.

Centres
Brad Barritt - Was excellent against Edinburgh. Has been decent/good so far this season in AP
Jordan Turner Hall - Has not really imposed himself on games this year.
Anthony Allen - form is poor, one good game apart.
Manu Tuilagi - started the season with a bang. Form has been OK since, but a couple of games missed with a shoulder injury.
Jonathan Joseph - started the season rather anonymously in a struggling LI side. Form has improved as LI have improved.

Back 3
Chris Ashton - Good form
Charlie Sharples - injured again?
Ben Foden - Injured
alex goode - Very good form
Mike Brown - very good form.


Nailed on Starters for AIs: (IMO)
Marler, Hartley, Cole
Lawes
Robshaw
Care
Ashton


Probable Starters
Johnson, Morgan
Flood, Barritt


Areas for Debate
Second row - 3 of the EPS members out of form. A real chance to look at a different option, but one Lancaster is unlikely to take.
Back Row - I have outlined the back row I expect Lancaster to select - plenty would be upset with Johnson starting - not me though.
Centre - I reckon Barritt is almost certain to play so between Joseph and tuilagi for OC spot. The unlucky one may be moved to the wing?
Wing - Just two wingers in the squad (plus foden). Just one fit winger in the squad. Unless he selects Joseph or Tuilagi, time to see what a Saxon can offer.
Full Back - Brown likely to get the nod - but a position of strength.

Lawes gives you a lineout option that judging from the weekends Saints game is catching up with Parling.

If thats the case..then suddenly Lawes becomes a huge player for us...hes tough, tackles like a monster and can scale the heights. Playing Attwood or Garvey beside him adds oomf...which then you can play Wood at 6 who can lead the lineout.
Or if the oppositions lineout is not so strong go with say Fearns for a more brute force option at 6.

Id like to see Fearns having a few games at 8 aswell...to give Morgan and Crane some serious competition.

Yeh, Lawes has shown some excellent line out form.

Great call on Fearns GF, I always keepo forgetting at least one of our backrow contenders when I think of the EPS squad! I think he's got to get some game time this Autumn. He's been playing like a man possessed. Have to admit, I prefer him at 6 rather than 8, but wouoldn't mind where he featured as long as he got some game time.

Crane was very poor on Sunday against Toulouse in my view. Granted, it was tough to look good against them because they performed excellently and we were just simply outclassed. He needs to prove some consistency.

Chjw131 wrote: A balanced pack on form so far this season would be:

1. J Marler
2. D Hartley
3. D Cole
4. M Garvey
5. G Parling
6. C Fearns
7. C Robshaw
8. B Morgan

16. T Youngs 17. M Vunipola 18. D Wilson 19. C Lawes 20. T Johnson

That is a seriously tantalising looking pack. Lots of physciality, and good lineout options too.

Wouldn't mind seeing that at all!

I always rated Fearns since his emergence at sale....but seeing him in SA he just looked so unconditioned.

Gold has rejuvenated him Attwood and Wilson...possibly its just simply down to getting them fit!

I just think Fearns power and aggression is too much to ignore...

But we have some serious options in the back row.
Haskell
Wood,
Croft,
Robshaw
Johnson
Armitage
Fearns
Morgan
Crane
Waldrom

And there are more....if we cant get a fearsome alround back row to match the very best from that lot...we are doing something seriously wrong.

Don't gorget Gaskell GF.....his form has seen him consistently selected to the Saxons and his quality cannot be ignored

GeordieFalcon wrote:I always rated Fearns since his emergence at sale....but seeing him in SA he just looked so unconditioned.

Gold has rejuvenated him Attwood and Wilson...possibly its just simply down to getting them fit!

I just think Fearns power and aggression is too much to ignore...

But we have some serious options in the back row.
Haskell
Wood,
Croft,
Robshaw
Johnson
Armitage
Fearns
Morgan
Crane
Waldrom

And there are more....if we cant get a fearsome alround back row to match the very best from that lot...we are doing something seriously wrong.

Geordiefalcon you say how good these backrow options are but how would you compare them to the potential first choice backrows of other countries?

Would you take Robshaw over Dusatoir for example or Fearns over SOB?, Morgan over Parisse or Harinorduquy Johnson over Lydiate? etc.

This is talking just about the 6 nations. Let alone the tri nations.

I think that's not the right question beshocked. The back row is all about balance. Parisse is a regular contender for best 8 in the world, but the Italian back row isn't that great as a unit.

Croft has a lot of aspects that are world class, but has blown hot and cold at international level. I don't think it's a coincidence that his better performances have generally been when he's had a real grafter alongside him.

If Lancaster can perm the right 3 from his available options, we may look back on them in 2015 as all-time greats. The problem is, it's not clear what that combination is yet.

bluestonevedder wrote:Don't gorget Gaskell GF.....his form has seen him consistently selected to the Saxons and his quality cannot be ignored

Gaskell is a god among insects and you'd do well to remember that

I'd take Johnson over Lydiate!

Tge other thing, Beshocked is that te players you have mentioned have had more time to make a mark at international level

Just to recap, then, various members of this board would like to see the following back five forwards given game time:

Johnson
Fearns
Morgan
Crane
Waldrom
Haskell
Wood
Robshaw
Easter
Armitage
Gaskell
Lawes
Parling
Atwood
Botha

This list doesn't even include EPS and Saxons names like Croft, Dowson, Robson, Kitchener, Clark, Launchbury, Kvesic, Palmer and Deacon. Or newcomers like Vunipola and recently-qualified Joubert.

There's no way - outside of a hefty injury toll - that all these players will get a chance to play for England this season. We've got four Autumn Internationals and five Six Nations matches.

The Fiji game doesn't really offer a lot of scope for experimentation. It's the first run of the season before we meet Australia, South Africa and New Zealand. You probably want the Fiji game to be an opportunity for the frontrunners to get a chance to settle into their combinations with that challenge ahead.

The onus really is on Lancaster getting the right mix straight off the bat. If we do start winning, then I'd rather see that team given a bit of a run than switching players out to see what someone else can do. If we start losing, it's trickier still. Drop too many players and you start looking as fickle as Andy Robinson.

If even half of the players mentioned above really have what it takes at Test level, then we probably have two classy back rows and perhaps a couple of good lock pairings. If we do happen to find one of each of them, then the other just isn't going to get a look-in.

beshocked wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I always rated Fearns since his emergence at sale....but seeing him in SA he just looked so unconditioned.

Gold has rejuvenated him Attwood and Wilson...possibly its just simply down to getting them fit!

I just think Fearns power and aggression is too much to ignore...

But we have some serious options in the back row.
Haskell
Wood,
Croft,
Robshaw
Johnson
Armitage
Fearns
Morgan
Crane
Waldrom

And there are more....if we cant get a fearsome alround back row to match the very best from that lot...we are doing something seriously wrong.

Geordiefalcon you say how good these backrow options are but how would you compare them to the potential first choice backrows of other countries?

Would you take Robshaw over Dusatoir for example or Fearns over SOB?, Morgan over Parisse or Harinorduquy Johnson over Lydiate? etc.

This is talking just about the 6 nations. Let alone the tri nations.

Actually Beshocked i think some of these could be very good indeed yes. Robshaw is another that doesnt get the recognition he deserves. The guy is a tremendous rugby player...who is getting better and better...and i think over the AI's and 6n we will see just how good he is. If he can replicate his first SA test performance consistantly...he will be right up there. Maybe not world class but a very good international player...who does the hard graft needed.

Likewise Tom Wood at full fitness and form is a very impressive player....and in time could become genuinely world class.
Fearns is still coming through...but he looks one that brings the physicality we're lookng for.

Dont forget quite a number of those havent played much due to injury or coming into the England squad...so they are a work in progress.

There are positions in our team and squad that i think we are WAY behind many of the top teams...but im actually confident that we have back rowers that can be a serious proposition.

yappysnap wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Don't gorget Gaskell GF.....his form has seen him consistently selected to the Saxons and his quality cannot be ignored

Gaskell is a god among insects and you'd do well to remember that

His interview with David Attenborough during the 'Life in the Undergrowth' documentary was excellent.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

beshocked wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I always rated Fearns since his emergence at sale....but seeing him in SA he just looked so unconditioned.

Gold has rejuvenated him Attwood and Wilson...possibly its just simply down to getting them fit!

I just think Fearns power and aggression is too much to ignore...

But we have some serious options in the back row.
Haskell
Wood,
Croft,
Robshaw
Johnson
Armitage
Fearns
Morgan
Crane
Waldrom

And there are more....if we cant get a fearsome alround back row to match the very best from that lot...we are doing something seriously wrong.

Geordiefalcon you say how good these backrow options are but how would you compare them to the potential first choice backrows of other countries?

Would you take Robshaw over Dusatoir for example or Fearns over SOB?, Morgan over Parisse or Harinorduquy Johnson over Lydiate? etc.

This is talking just about the 6 nations. Let alone the tri nations.

Actually Beshocked i think some of these could be very good indeed yes. Robshaw is another that doesnt get the recognition he deserves. The guy is a tremendous rugby player...who is getting better and better...and i think over the AI's and 6n we will see just how good he is. If he can replicate his first SA test performance consistantly...he will be right up there. Maybe not world class but a very good international player...who does the hard graft needed.

Likewise Tom Wood at full fitness and form is a very impressive player....and in time could become genuinely world class.
Fearns is still coming through...but he looks one that brings the physicality we're lookng for.

Dont forget quite a number of those havent played much due to injury or coming into the England squad...so they are a work in progress.

There are positions in our team and squad that i think we are WAY behind many of the top teams...but im actually confident that we have back rowers that can be a serious proposition.

Sure there is the potential but it's just that.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves though.

Most of these guys are industrious ball carriers but do you genuinely think most have what it takes to be world class?

Armitage has been tearing it up in the top 14 but is largely unproven at international level. Fearns - can't say I know enough about him. He's unproven though.

The likes of Johnson and Waldrom are guys who I am sure won't let England down but will they ever be world class? I doubt it.

Croft and Wood are enigmas. You could say Haskell is another. He's got the physique but is he well rounded enough?

Will Crane ever cut it at international level?

Robshaw and Morgan could make it IMO.

Yes actually i do mate. whilst i agree some like Johnson, Waldrom etc will not let England down, I genuinely think we have a cluster of back row players coming through that can take it to the next level.

An example being Tom Wood who should have been nailed on....and showing just how good he is...aside from a torrid run of injuries.
Croft was outstanding in the last 6n...but he is also injured. Robshaw is that player that doesnt get the credit for what he gives. Hes that player that does the stuff that allows others like Croft etc to play their game to their best. Add in players like Fearns, Morgan etc and yes i believe we should be able to put out a very impresseive back row...and an impressive pack.

I'm a bit late with this, but I have finally watched the Wasps vs, NG Dragons game and I thought that Joe Launchbury was brilliant. His work rate and carrying were impressive. He is powerful and always makes yards in the tight ( a scary prospect considering he is only 21!). He is also very quick in the loose and a good enough ball player not to be a hindrance out in the open spaces. However, it was offloading that stood out. He just has great hands ( very reminiscent of Shaw).

I really hope he gets a chance for England in either the AI's or the Six Nations, some people just look 'born to it' and IMO he has one of those sort of auras about him. I'm guess what I'm saying is that I'm setting up the Joe Launchbury fan club, right now!

Given the English coaches' obvious like of him I'd be pretty surprised if Launchbury didn't get a chance to show his worth in test rugby sooner rather than later. I'd back our test selection in a couple of years to be Lawes, Kitchener & Launchbury.

Cumbrian

I think your spot on...he is a serious talent. The fact he was in SA and probably only missed out on a game in the final test was due to injury...i suspect he will definately feature in the AI's.

Id like to see him and Lawes as a combo for a few minutes at some point.