British and Irish Lions Watch 2012-13

First topic message reminder :

This thread started many months back and has been a gradual examination of who is picking who for the impending Lions Tour.

Now the Six Nations is over and all we have left to judge is the HEC and the various national leagues.

Wood for Ferris. Seriously dont make me laugh.

Guns,

Im a big fan of Ferris...but dont underestimate Wood...he is a seriously quality player....

He is obviously very good and may well travel but I cant see anyone other that Ferris taking the 6 test berth if he is fit.

GunsGerms wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Then there still the likes of SOB, Ferris, Morgan, Robshaw, Woods, Denton, Rennie all who will be in the mix.

Ferris if fit will be starting 6. There is no one better than him at what he does. He terrorised the Aussies all day in Eden park in the world cup.

Guns,

I wouldn't argue if Ferris started, my choice would be Lydiate but again some of these top class players mentioned are going to miss out.

Lydiate was exceptionally good during the 6N but has since struggled a bit I think you will agree. I wouldnt be too disapointed at all if the 6N Dan Lydiate played however, Ferris I can honestly say has been consistently brilliant for Ireland any time he plays. I think he has been Irelands best player for a while now.

Lydiates been out of action since end of September but had started the season where he left off and I think his absence was really felt during the AIs.

The big question as with a few others is how much game time they will get prior to the tour, Lydiate is unlikely to play much part in the 6 Nations so that will hamper his chances.

yappysnap wrote:How can you rule out Denton and Rennie for not being impressive lately but then choose Lydiate (injured) and Warburton (horribly off form).

I think the backrow selection will probably surprise and shock most of us and it's probably the one area of the team that could see players from any country feature in it, which is great.

From the AI's i'd be playing:

6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Heaslip

But that's only going by the AI's and could change a heck of a lot.

Yes i agree with you on that. They are the best three players in their positions for the Lions by a country mile.

But like you say it could change a heck of a lot by the end of the 6ns.

Mike Ross can safely book his summer holiday following yesterday's horror show from the Leinster front row and Ross in particular.

Exiledinborders wrote:Mike Ross can safely book his summer holiday following yesterday's horror show from the Leinster front row and Ross in particular.

Rory Best did not have a great game either yesterday.

Exiledinborders wrote:Mike Ross can safely book his summer holiday following yesterday's horror show from the Leinster front row and Ross in particular.

He's behind Adam Jones and Dan Cole anyway.

majesticimperialman wrote:

yappysnap wrote:How can you rule out Denton and Rennie for not being impressive lately but then choose Lydiate (injured) and Warburton (horribly off form).

I think the backrow selection will probably surprise and shock most of us and it's probably the one area of the team that could see players from any country feature in it, which is great.

From the AI's i'd be playing:

6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Heaslip

But that's only going by the AI's and could change a heck of a lot.

Yes i agree with you on that. They are the best three players in their positions for the Lions by a country mile.

But like you say it could change a heck of a lot by the end of the 6ns.

Seriously?

No ...!

Robshaw was being slated by England pundits and fans prior to the game against the all blacks, and since that match England have more to prove than ever before. Tom Wood is definitely in the running but as has been pointed out by many on this thread already, there are plenty of good blindside flankers around, many have played a lot better than Wood since his year off injured.

http://www.skysports.com/video/inline/0,,12610_8337714,00.html

Sky Sports pundits discuss their Lions selections

Robshaw was being slated for his captaincy/decision-making. Not his play which was actually bloody good vs SA and aspects vs Aus, better than his 7-shirt rivals on show!

ChequeredJersey wrote:Robshaw was being slated for his captaincy/decision-making. Not his play which was actually bloody good vs SA and aspects vs Aus, better than his 7-shirt rivals on show!

Though you all seemed to want Steffan Armitage to take the seven shirt from Robshaw...!

Well not me personally. Some good reasons to playSteffon but I'm biased and I'd keep Robshaw

The people calling for Armitage were the same ones calling for him before the AI, and before the summer tour and before the 6 nations. The one's who said we need a 'proper' 7, whatever that means. Back row is all about balance. Gatland will pick a group that compliment each other, so whichever are certain picks will give rise to the rest.

SOB is 3 games back from a long injury and is already playing brilliantly. He's ine to watch out for.

Any further news on Tommy Bowe? I saw comments suggesting he might be out for the whole of the Six Nations, which would certainly be a blow to his Lions chances.

Ligament damage, operation this week.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20748451

ESPN


15. Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)

It was an assured performance by the England back against Ulster as he fielded their box kicks and managed to get some solid yards with ball in hand.

14. Shane Monahan (Gloucester)

Yes his tries came in the Amlin Challenge Cup but when you get four - against another Aviva Premiership side - then you have to earn a place in the XV. Munster's Simon Zebo warrants an honourable mention.

13. Brad Barritt (Saracens)

The England centre was solid in defence against Munster and made some good yards with ball in hand - a real contender for a place on the Lions tour.

12. Tom May (Northampton Saints)

The versatile back was a calm head in the Saints backline and was a key cog in their win over Ulster. Although he squandered a good try-scoring opportunity, May kept the team moving around with his accurate distribution.

11. Eli Walker (Ospreys)

He scored a superb try against Toulouse and kept the French team's defence peddling back whenever he attacked the space in front of him. Could yet be a Lions bolter.

10. Dan Biggar (Ospreys)

It was an immensely measured performance by the man tipped by many to be the right choice to replace the injured Rhys Priestland at fly-half for Wales. He slotted 12 points against Toulouse and was accurate from the boot when required.

9. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)

The scrum-half kept the backs moving around and constantly shifted the point of attack. A really good performance from the England international.


1. Matt Stevens (Saracens)

Stevens is retired from Test rugby but he had the better of the Munster front-row and won a key penalty in the last few minutes of the match to ease the pressure on their tryline.

2. Richard Hibbard (Ospreys)

Hibbard hit every lineout against Toulouse and also put in a good showing in the loose making eight tackles.

3. Will Collier (Harlequins)

The Premiership champions never had to get out of second gear against Zebre and eventually ran in a half-century of points. While they cantered through the match, Collier's performance was impressive against a physical Italian front-row.

4. Louis Deacon (Leicester Tigers)

Leicester managed to grasp victory from the jaws of defeat against Treviso and it was a match dominated by the pack. Deacon, seemingly out of the England set-up, shone in the Tigers' second-row.

5. Nathan Hines (Clermont Auvergne)

Former Leinster lock Hines dismantled the Irish province's second-row and helped the Top 14 club to their memorable win in the Aviva Stadium. He has formed a superb partnership with Jamie Cudmore and could well take his spot on the plane to Australia next summer.

6. George Kruis (Saracens)

Although he is predominantly a lock, Kruis lined up at blindside against Munster and put in a huge performance.

7. James Scaysbrook (Exeter Chiefs)

One of Europe's most underrated flankers, Scaysbrook was superb against the Scarlets. He scored a late try for the Chiefs and was a constant presence around the breakdown. Toulon's Steffon Armitage also put in an impressive performance against Sale.

8. Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier)

Scotland's forgotten No.8 destroyed the Blues from the back of the scrum on Saturday evening and even managed to cross for a try.

Once you get beyond picking the Lions squad based on last year's Six Nations form, your choices really could go anywhere at this juncture. Everyone from old warhorses to bright, shiny new talents seems to have been named as an outside bet.

I suspect Gatland and Co will be using the Six Nations, and remaining top league and Cup matches, to take a lot of names off the table, not to add them. In other words, players have more chance now of damaging their chances by playing badly than they do of improving them by doing well.

Good Call there...

I think there is a hell of a lot more up for grabs than in the many previous tour selections I can remember.

Certainly a lot more than in the last 20 years where there was one team more dominant than others.

Its great for young lads like Kruis to get recognition for their performances...we have actually been discussing him on another thread for an England squad spot...another tough athletic young SR coming through.

I doubt very much he'll goto Oz but i wouldnt be surprised to see him on the England plane to Argentina...

Aye GF

He played a blinder on the weekend, and against a very good Munster back row too... Unearthed a gem there.

No 10:
Criteria:
in great playing form, and be called 'Jonny'.
I guess that is two + Flood.

gregortree wrote:No 10:
Criteria:
in great playing form, and be called 'Jonny'.
I guess that is two + Flood.

But he is in awful form, think RWC 2011 form, not RWC 2003. Michelak showed what a decent flyhalf can do with that Toulouse team last weekend

maestegmafia wrote:
Robshaw was being slated by England pundits and fans prior to the game against the all blacks, and since that match England have more to prove than ever before. Tom Wood is definitely in the running but as has been pointed out by many on this thread already, there are plenty of good blindside flankers around, many have played a lot better than Wood since his year off injured.

What do you mean by the "England have more to prove than ever before" comment? I don't really see how Robshaw can win if that's the reaction when he plays well. Damned if you do etc. Also, blanket statements like 'you all wanted Armitage etc' are only helpful if they're aimed at the right person. Not everyone wanted Robshaw dropped, and his actual play vs South Africa in particular was very good. Only his decision making was really in question.

On Wood - I would say that Ferris and Lydiate are going to be incredibly tough competition for him if/when they get fit and in form this season, but I'm not sure who you are saying has played a lot better than Wood since his return, given that they both missed the series through injury and he got MOTM vs New Zealand. He was probably England's best player in the 2011 Six Nations win as well.

maestegmafia wrote:

gregortree wrote:No 10:
Criteria:
in great playing form, and be called 'Jonny'.
I guess that is two + Flood.

But he is in awful form, think RWC 2011 form, not RWC 2003. Michelak showed what a decent flyhalf can do with that Toulouse team last weekend

You are wrong. He can fully open the backrow, almost at will, has a cast iron boot and great leadership skills. If you think otherwise you haven't watch his games this year. This isn't the shadow of the player we saw in the RWC2011. Nothing will change your mind though, you've always had a stone in your boot about Wilko.

Maybe Warren should check Michalak's grandpere et grandmamma, and try and fast-track him to B or I citizenship for the tour.

greg if he was going to go down that road he would find the majority of the Aussie side has Brirish grandparents and could just select them for the Lions tour

Peter, too true.
I think Maes has mentioned Michalak a couple of times now.
Back to your point, yes most of the ANZACS and quite a few SAs have GB&I parentage. What pickings we could have there We need to leave a few of them alone though to give the Lions a match.

Just thinking out loud here but if you name the top 3 players in each position, being hopeful on fitness, it really does highlight Scotland's struggles currently. Obviously this is very subjective to opinion though!

1.Healy, Sheridan, Jenkins
2.Best, Hartley, Ford
3.Cole, Jones, Murray
4.Gray, Charteris, Ryan
5.Parling, POC, Evans
6.Ferris, Wood, Lydiate (Harsh on Croft but it's going to be harsh on one of them if they're somehow all fit)
7.Robshaw, Warburton, Rennie
8.Heaslip, Denton, Faletau

9.Youngs, Care, Murray
10.Sexton, Flood, Farrell

11.North, Visser, Trimble
12.Roberts, Barritt, Scott
13.Tuilagi, BOD, Davies
14.Bowe, Cuthbert, Ashton
15.Halfpenny, Kearney, Foden/Goode/Brown - all of the last 3 are on even pegging at the moment in my mind

That's 7 Scottish players there I count out of 45. To be fair some of the guys to miss out like Brown, Barclay, Beattie and Hamilton are in very competitive positions. Also if Laidlaw moved back to SH he may well get in there.

But still even the guys in there you see a lot of debate about with Murray not getting much game time, Ford out of form, Denton seen as one dimensional by many and Visser struggling in defence this autumn.

2013 British & Irish Lions

Lions Watch: Team of the Week
ESPN Staff
December 24, 2012


15. Mike Brown (Harlequins)

The Harlequins fullback was in sensational form in the wet at Franklin's Gardens, fielding every high ball and counter-attacking with verve and intelligence.

14. Niall Morris (Leicester)

The Irish winger's burgeoning reputation took another boost with two well-taken tries for Leicester Tigers against London Irish.

13.Manu Tuilagi (Leicester)

With all the winter rain about, it was hardly a great weekend for outside centres. But Tuilagi was in good form again for the Tigers and his mere presence created opportunities for others, namely Morris.

12. Tom Cassons (Harlequins)

The 22-year-old was selected ahead of Jordan Turner-Hall for Harlequins and repaid Conor O'Shea with a superb display for the table-toppers, especially in defence.

11. Andrew Trimble (Ulster)

The Ireland winger was on the scoresheet once again for Ulster and his domestic form could put him in line for a central role for Ireland in the Six Nations.

10. Charlie Hodgson (Saracens)

All the talk is about whether Jonny Wilkinson can force his way into the Lions squad, but on current form Hodgson is only player up there with Ireland's Jonny Sexton.

9. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)

A second appearance in a row in the Team of the Week for the Sarries scrum-half who scored a try and revelled in the tactical and technical challenge of a wet day in Bath.

1. Tom Court (Ulster)

The Ireland international was the cornerstone to Ulster's impressive scrummaging power as they returned to winning ways against Leinster.

2. Rory Best (Ulster)

Ulster's setpiece was bang on against Leinster with Best enjoying another impressive performance. Currently in pole position to go as Lions No.1 hooker.

3. Matt Stevens (Saracens)

Against his former club, Stevens put in a forceful performance on the tight-head and was notable in the loose as the Sarries pack outmuscled their opponents.

4. George Robson (Harlequins)

Against physical and technically proficient opponents, Robson controlled the lineout for Harlequins and was a force to be reckoned with around the park.

5. Steve Borthwick (Saracens)

The ex-England captain led Sarries to a convincing win over his former side Bath at The Rec, masterminding their destruction of the Bath lineout while safeguarding theirs.

6. Robbie Diack (Ulster)

The Irish flanker drew fulsome praise from coach Mark Anscombe as Ulster's pack dominated Leinster in Belfast.

7. Aaron Shingler (Scarlets)

The Wales international shone for the Scarlets on his return from injury with his energy and workrate ensured he eclipsed his national skipper Sam Warburton.

8. Billy Vunipola (Wasps)

Nick Easter maintained his terrific form for Harlequins but Vunipola had a barnstorming game for Wasps. If England have consigned Easter to the past, Vunipola may well be part of their future.

AlastairW wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

gregortree wrote:No 10:
Criteria:
in great playing form, and be called 'Jonny'.
I guess that is two + Flood.

But he is in awful form, think RWC 2011 form, not RWC 2003. Michelak showed what a decent flyhalf can do with that Toulouse team last weekend

You are wrong. He can fully open the backrow, almost at will, has a cast iron boot and great leadership skills. If you think otherwise you haven't watch his games this year. This isn't the shadow of the player we saw in the RWC2011. Nothing will change your mind though, you've always had a stone in your boot about Wilko.

I have seen many games this year that he has played. HEC and a few t14. He has played better than that first round against Sale, but he is no where near as a good a player as the younger candidates. He fluffs kicks has no pace, his goal kicking average is about 70% and reads the game poorly. Still tackles well but so do most flyhalfs.

gregortree wrote:Peter, too true.
I think Maes has mentioned Michalak a couple of times now.
Back to your point, yes most of the ANZACS and quite a few SAs have GB&I parentage. What pickings we could have there We need to leave a few of them alone though to give the Lions a match.

In reference to good flyhalf play I have mentioned Michelak.

Was impressed with Patchell and Biggar this weekend. Will be interesting to see if either of them get the Welsh shirt this six nations and do well.

At the moment it's Flood, Sexton and Biggar who are the best flyhalf candidates.

maestegmafia wrote:

gregortree wrote:Peter, too true.
I think Maes has mentioned Michalak a couple of times now.
Back to your point, yes most of the ANZACS and quite a few SAs have GB&I parentage. What pickings we could have there We need to leave a few of them alone though to give the Lions a match.

In reference to good flyhalf play I have mentioned Michelak.

Was impressed with Patchell and Biggar this weekend. Will be interesting to see if either of them get the Welsh shirt this six nations and do well.

At the moment it's Flood, Sexton and Biggar who are the best flyhalf candidates.

Biggar had a solid game with a totally dominant pack but I thought Patchell looked a bit flaky & indecisive albeit in bad conditions. He dithered at one point when he should & could have cleared his lines in the 22 got tackled & conceded a penalty. I still have doubts about Biggars personality though. He always appears a bit aloof & angry. I maybe doing him a disservice there but just my impression.

The form fly half by a distance is Charlie Hodgson.

My Lions squad

Healy-Sheridan-Jenkins
Best-Ford-Strauss
Jones-Cole-Murray
Gray-Ryan-Palmer-Wyn Jones-McCarthy
O'Brien-Heaslip-Armitage-Denton-Tuirpric-Ferris

Care-Murray-Youngs
Sexton-Flood-Laidlaw
North-Gilroy-Hogg
Roberts-Marshall
Tuilagi-BOD-Davies
Visser-Cuthbert
Kearney-Halfpenny-Brown

40man squad for me with a few bolters and left wing selections. Few big name lads getting left out also (Foden, Ashton, Lawes, POC, ROG, Warbs)

Few things worth saying.

1) I think the Lions while wanting to be physically dominant will need to be mobile. We don't have the level of mobility in the backs that they do but we can match it in the forwards.

2) I don't think this will resort to a kicking competition and the lineout will be fairly even but I think the scrum will be more frequent and work in our favour.

3) Bolters
Strauss I think is much better than Hartley and should show as much if he hasn't already. Also I don't think Hartley would be the most popular guy on tour from the other nations.

Armitage is one that I am surprised more don't have in their teams. He's unreal. Much better than all the other high profile 7's (Robshaw/Warbs)

Laidlaw has got the game changing ability and can move the ball better than the likes of Farrell who is a kicking/tackling 10.

Bowe out by the looks of it but Hogg in who is an unreal talent and can play 11-14, also Visser is worth a shout out too in terms of sheer finishing, could be very handy to have on the bench if we are down a score or two. Ashton is not a good winger at all and should not be considered where as Brown and Halfpenny must be considered wing options if Kearney gets 15.

Marshall I believe will be starting Irish 12 during the 6Nations and starting for an Ulster team that will make it to the HCup final again so I believe he has every right to be in there.

My team:

Healy-Best-Jones
Gray-Ryan
O'Brien-Denton-Armitage
Care-Sexton
Marshall-O'Driscoll
North-Kearney-Cuthbert

Ford-Sheridan-Cole-Palmer-Heaslip-Murray-Flood-Visser

For what it is worth, Armitage can also play at 8 as shown recently in the toulon-sale game. with his low centre of gravity and ability to break tackles, it's certainly interesting to see him at the back of the scrum.

whocares wrote:For what it is worth, Armitage can also play at 8 as shown recently in the toulon-sale game. with his low centre of gravity and ability to break tackles, it's certainly interesting to see him at the back of the scrum.

I don't think he gets anywhere near enough credit and Tuirpric also. Also just looked at Evans and Owen's teams on Rugbydump and neither had Healy starting, this I could not understand myself

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

gregortree wrote:Peter, too true.
I think Maes has mentioned Michalak a couple of times now.
Back to your point, yes most of the ANZACS and quite a few SAs have GB&I parentage. What pickings we could have there We need to leave a few of them alone though to give the Lions a match.

In reference to good flyhalf play I have mentioned Michelak.

Was impressed with Patchell and Biggar this weekend. Will be interesting to see if either of them get the Welsh shirt this six nations and do well.

At the moment it's Flood, Sexton and Biggar who are the best flyhalf candidates.

Biggar had a solid game with a totally dominant pack but I thought Patchell looked a bit flaky & indecisive albeit in bad conditions. He dithered at one point when he should & could have cleared his lines in the 22 got tackled & conceded a penalty. I still have doubts about Biggars personality though. He always appears a bit aloof & angry. I maybe doing him a disservice there but just my impression.

The form fly half by a distance is Charlie Hodgson.

Charlie Hodgson cant get his backline moving though can he...! he is one of those players like Wilkinson, Dan Parks or O'Gara who just kick everything they get their hands on.

Armitage was mediocre internationally though he deserves a second chance alla Brown if he comes back to the UK. However, looking very good playing a flair game for Toulon, with one of the most dominant packs I've seen in years, is probably misleading as to how good he is. He could very easily tour though and my brother who lives in France this year and watches t14 regularly says he has been excellent

Maesteg, that's the opposite to what Charlie does, even at Sarries he can get his bcks going. At Sale he was one of the most attacking 10s the NH had seen in yonks

ChequeredJersey wrote:Armitage was mediocre internationally though he deserves a second chance alla Brown if he comes back to the UK. However, looking very good playing a flair game for Toulon, with one of the most dominant packs I've seen in years, is probably misleading as to how good he is. He could very easily tour though and my brother who lives in France this year and watches t14 regularly says he has been excellent

Sorry, what!?

Just because he is part of (not behind) a good pack doesn't make him any worse eg: Picamoles, Reid

ChequeredJersey wrote:Maesteg, that's the opposite to what Charlie does, even at Sarries he can get his bcks going. At Sale he was one of the most attacking 10s the NH had seen in yonks

He didn't get the backs moving against Munster. Farrell (who is poor at this) did a better job the week after in awful conditions

To play for England which was why I was referring to, he is going to have to return to England. This has been made pretty clear. As for the lions, that's a different question, but as I said he could well tour

ChequeredJersey wrote:To play for England which was why I was referring to, he is going to have to return to England. This has been made pretty clear. As for the lions, that's a different question, but as I said he could well tour

He was awful for England too mate...! You almost lost to Italy and Scotland last year with Hodgson at the helm and only won because a clearance kick hit him in the face and he fell on the ball, in both games.

flood is bar far the best flyhalf in England. Behind him Burns looks good and Ford will be in time to I'm sure.

maestegmafia wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:To play for England which was why I was referring to, he is going to have to return to England. This has been made pretty clear. As for the lions, that's a different question, but as I said he could well tour

He was awful for England too mate...! You almost lost to Italy and Scotland last year with Hodgson at the helm and only won because a clearance kick hit him in the face and he fell on the ball, in both games.

flood is bar far the best flyhalf in England. Behind him Burns looks good and Ford will be in time to I'm sure.

Aaahh there it is.

No Pete it doesn't but it does make a certain style of play, which I called flair, by which I mean big carries and hits, highlight reel stuff, much easier and makes it show up more. If we can't replicate the same level of support for the Lions then he may not be nearly as effective . He might be, but from what I've seen of him in the past in similar circumstances, I am unconvinced

Charlie Hodgson has not shone at International level and I wouldn't pick him for England or the Lions but he is an attacking flyhalf not a kicking one even though his style has been tempered since moving to Sarries. Saying Farrell is better at moving a backline than Hodgson based on two games, in which the key difference was the quality of the pack's performance (Farrell didn't get Sarries moving at all except via his overused grubber-pass to the wing) isn't a compelling argument

ChequeredJersey wrote:No Pete it doesn't but it does make a certain style of play, which I called flair, by which I mean big carries and hits, highlight reel stuff, much easier and makes it show up more. If we can't replicate the same level of support for the Lions then he may not be nearly as effective . He might be, but from what I've seen of him in the past in similar circumstances, I am unconvinced

Momentum is entirely cyclical though.

An effective carry --> easier for supporting players to run forward on to the ruck creating clean ball --> quick ball for the 9 to feed the outside players
--> quick ball gives the defence less time to get organised --> less organised defence promotes an effective carry

An effective carry = making yards with good ball retention

You need guys like Picamoles, Armitage, Morgan, O'Brien as ball carriers to make it easier on the guys who are doing the dirty work just as much as you need guys like Thorn, Best, Palmer, Alyn Wyn Jones who set up the platform for the carriers.

One does not promote the other without itself being promoted (badly formed sentence but you get the idea)

I'd love to see Armitage tour but won't he miss some of the Lions if Toulon make the T14 playoffs? He offers a very different style to most other players and the arguments against him remind me of the ones levelled against Picamoles which he's now proved were all hot air.

Hodgson has been meh for the last season now, luckily he's Stu Barnes favourite son so gets MASSIVELY over hyped by him, especially if he manages to throw a flat pass!

Pete I thought BOD had ruled himself out of the Lions? And Tuilagi will push him close anyhows