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England Saxons to play in February

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Post by Cumbrian Thu 18 Oct 2012, 11:35 am

Couldn't see this covered anywhere. They are playing Scotland A in Newcastle on February the first. Falcons are playing a Tongan fifteen too.


England Saxons will meet Scotland A at Newcastle Falcons’ Kingston Park on Friday, February 1, the second of two internationals taking place in the North East this winter.

After the Falcons have played a Tonga VX on Tuesday, November 13 – part of the Pacific Islanders’ four-game European tour this November – England’s second-string will have the chance to impress in their only home game of the season.

Rob Andrew, former director of rugby at the club and now professional rugby director at the RFU, is excited about the prospect of top-class rugby in Newcastle and pointed to the important developmental aspect of these games.

Andrew, who won 71 England caps, said: “The Saxons play an important role in our player development and this, our only home game, will be a good gauge of where the next level of players below the seniors are at.

“Kingston Park is a fantastic ground with passionate supporters and I’m sure they will come out in force.”

The match, which kicks-off at 8pm, is on the eve of the RBS 6 Nations opener between England and Scotland at Twickenham, with a string of high profile names in the Saxons Elite Player Squad looking to stake their claim for involvement later in the tournament.

The announcement of the two internationals comes on the back of the Falcons’ blistering start to their RFU Championship campaign, spearheaded by director of rugby Dean Richards. Winning all of their first seven games in all competitions, there is a real feel good factor for rugby in the North East and Cumbria at present.

And with the homecoming of former Falcons player and current Chairman and President of the Tongan Rugby Union Epi Taione providing a fitting backdrop to the fixture, Richards said: “It is fantastic that Kingston Park will be staging two high profile internationals and I am very much looking forward to both occasions.

“It will be great to welcome Epi back to the North East with Tonga next month, and it is the perfect opportunity for families to come to Kingston Park and enjoy top class rugby.

“Tonga will provide us with a strong challenge as we look to continue our momentum in the RFU Championship.”
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Post by TrailApe Thu 18 Oct 2012, 11:50 am

Yes, what with KP starting to sell Real Ale, things are looking up.

I'll be there - although I have my reservations about the name 'Saxons' when applied to an English team

With reference to the Tongan game, there is a hell of a lot of bitching on the Championship board about this game as Deano was less than enthusiastic over the Championship XV vs Maoris game.

Of couse there are a few bitter individuals on that board that seem to hate anything about the former Premiership sides (especially when they keep winning the games)
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Post by Geordie Thu 18 Oct 2012, 12:07 pm

Ill definately be there for those..

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Post by Effervescing Elephant Thu 18 Oct 2012, 12:58 pm

Would you prefer they were called England Angles instead or perhaps Jutes takes your fancy?
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Post by Geordie Thu 18 Oct 2012, 1:35 pm

I dont care as long as some of them run better angles and lines than the seniors are at present Wink

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Post by sickofwendy Thu 18 Oct 2012, 2:08 pm

They should try and set up more games against the crap ....sorry I mean the second tier nations.good for us and good for them.on a side note Scotland A destroyed the salons last year in awful conditions,be nice to turn the tables on them.

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Post by Geordie Thu 18 Oct 2012, 2:22 pm

It'll be interesting to see what team he puts out.....by then after the AIs' and more club games...many of the senior EPS members might have been replaced...and how long does someone like Gaskell get to remain in the Saxons...

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Post by Cumbrian Thu 18 Oct 2012, 2:28 pm

sickofwendy wrote:They should try and set up more games against the crap ....sorry I mean the second tier nations.good for us and good for them.on a side note Scotland A destroyed the salons last year in awful conditions,be nice to turn the tables on them.

You're looking for good conditions in the North East in February? Laugh

I wish they would play more Saxons games against touring opposition like Maori and emerging Springboks, it would be a good chance to see our emerging talent test their mettle. Don't know when they would be able to find the time to do it though.
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Post by TrailApe Thu 18 Oct 2012, 4:31 pm

Would you prefer they were called England Angles instead or perhaps Jutes takes your fancy?.

Well if we look at it from a politically correct angle, a modern team from a multicultural and ethnically diverse country has no relevance to a tribe that inhabited the South of England over 900 years ago.

And if we look at if from a historic viewpoint, the Saxons were just one of the various peoples that lived on this part of the Island that was to become England, and if you look at the name of the country, the name of our nation and the language that a lot of people use in this land, Saxon influence seems to be minimal. Now the fact that they inhabited the area that the Old Farts of the RFU probably come from is no reason to use that name.

What's wrong with England A? - or if you want a Ye Olde name, what about Anglecynn?
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Post by Effervescing Elephant Thu 18 Oct 2012, 4:50 pm

TrailApe wrote:
Would you prefer they were called England Angles instead or perhaps Jutes takes your fancy?.

Well if we look at it from a politically correct angle, a modern team from a multicultural and ethnically diverse country has no relevance to a tribe that inhabited the South of England over 900 years ago.

And if we look at if from a historic viewpoint, the Saxons were just one of the various peoples that lived on this part of the Island that was to become England, and if you look at the name of the country, the name of our nation and the language that a lot of people use in this land, Saxon influence seems to be minimal. Now the fact that they inhabited the area that the Old Farts of the RFU probably come from is no reason to use that name.

What's wrong with England A? - or if you want a Ye Olde name, what about Anglecynn?

The Irish aint dogs either but they're called the Wolfhounds. It's just a name that makes them look a bit hard. I can confirm that there are no Native American tribal leaders in Exeter either.
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Post by Geordie Thu 18 Oct 2012, 4:52 pm

We've got loads of vicious birds up here though boxing

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Post by Effervescing Elephant Thu 18 Oct 2012, 4:53 pm

Laugh
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Post by yappysnap Thu 18 Oct 2012, 10:30 pm

Surely while the LV is on we could have two or three Saxons matches happening. After all we have enough youngsters that none of them need to be overplayed in all the games, maybe we.could even find a replacement for Gaskell...

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Post by DaveM Thu 18 Oct 2012, 11:34 pm

So, who could we be seeing?

Vunipola
Youngs
Harden
Savage
Kitchener
Craig
Kvesic
Vunipola
Spencer
Ford
Yarde
Burrell
Trinder
Wade
Miller

Now one problem with this is that lots of these players aren't currently in the Saxons (I think the Saxons squad is slightly disappointing at present, with some players clearly on their way down). Another issue is the backline may not find ideal conditions. Still, I quite like the look of this side.

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Post by niwatts Fri 19 Oct 2012, 12:26 am

DaveM wrote:So, who could we be seeing?

Vunipola
Youngs
Harden
Savage
Kitchener
Craig
Kvesic
Vunipola
Spencer
Ford
Yarde
Burrell
Trinder
Wade
Miller

Now one problem with this is that lots of these players aren't currently in the Saxons (I think the Saxons squad is slightly disappointing at present, with some players clearly on their way down). Another issue is the backline may not find ideal conditions. Still, I quite like the look of this side.

I don't really agree with that. There are a few names missing based on current form, but then the squad was selected before the season began and they started to make a case for themselves. Injuries and players going up to the EPS means there is plenty of scope for many of them to come in though. Nonetheless, from the current squad you could select:


Mullan
Youngs
Thomas
Launchbury
Kitchener
Haskell
Kvesic
Fearns

Simpson
Burns
May
Twelvetrees
Lowe
Wade
Miller

Catt, PDJ, Paice, Robson, Gibson, Wigglesworth, Ford, Abendanon


Personally, I think that's more than competitive in comparison with the side you selected and better in a few areas. Not sure why you selected Craig, he hasn't played for Saints this season, having been injured for most of it. And Spencer has played all of 6 mins for Saracens so far.

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Post by Geordie Fri 19 Oct 2012, 9:22 am

Watts... i think a number of those will be invovled in the senior team to be honest...certainly the likes of Launchbury, Youngs..possibly Fearns Twelvetrees?

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Post by Cumbrian Fri 19 Oct 2012, 9:34 am

Current Saxons side:


Props

Mak Vunipola
Nathan Catt
Matt Mullan

Paul Doran-Jones
Henry Thomas

Hooker:

David Paice
Joe Gray
Tom Youngs

Second Row:

Louis Deacon
George Robson
Joe Launchbury
Graham Kitchener
James Gaskell

Back row

Calum Clarke
Carl Fearns
James Haskell
Jamie Gibson
Matt Kvesic

Scrum Half:

Richard Wigglesworth
Joe Simpson

Fly Half:

George Ford
Freddie Burns

Centres:

Billy Twelvetrees
George Lowe

Wings:

Tom Biggs
Miles Benjamin
Christian Wade
Jonny May
David Strettle
Ugo Monye

Fullbacks

Nick Abendanon
Rob Miller


Players I think could be called up to the main England squad by February
Players I think will be unavailable due to injury, retirement or suspension.

Team I would personally pick:

01. Mako Vunipola (I think he has already overtaken Nathan Catt. Matt Mullan may get called up)
02. Tom Lindsay (Youngs and Gray potentially away with England)
03. Shaun Knight (Henry Thomas is getting no game time and PDJ could be with England)
04. Graham Kitchener
05. George Robson
06. Tom Savage
07. Jamie Gibson/ Matt Kvesic
08. Billy Vunipola (Others will be called up)

09. Joe Simpson
10. Freddie Burns

11. Jonny May
12. Luther Burrell/ Dom Waldouck (Only cot one 12 and he is likely to be called up!)
13. George Lowe
14. Christian Wade
15. Rob Miller



Last edited by Cumbrian on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 9:49 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : ahem)
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Post by Cumbrian Fri 19 Oct 2012, 9:35 am

It also seems to me that Knight has already overtaken Harden at Gloucester too.
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Post by yappysnap Fri 19 Oct 2012, 9:42 am

Ignore!!


Last edited by yappysnap on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 9:46 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Repeat post)

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Post by yappysnap Fri 19 Oct 2012, 9:43 am

Beat me to it Cumbrian!!

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Post by yappysnap Fri 19 Oct 2012, 9:46 am

Cumbrian I like that team, think it would beast anything it came up against.

I would mention that you probably wouldn't want George Robson the Quins lock at 13 though (as good as his offloads are...) and you can almost guarantee that Gaskell will be in there somewhere. Wink

Like those wings, there's usually a fair bit of space in Saxons level games so May and Wade should be deadly.

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Post by Cumbrian Fri 19 Oct 2012, 9:48 am

AH Poopie, changed. Whistle
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Post by beshocked Fri 19 Oct 2012, 9:57 am

Why does the Saxon squad have 6 wingers?

Would love to see the Vunipola bros in the same XV.

I can see Will Fraser getting a call up for the Saxons as he's been in good form for Sarries.

What's happened with Elliot Daly for Wasps?

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Post by Cumbrian Fri 19 Oct 2012, 9:58 am

I am hoping Gaskell isn't anywhere near the Saxons at the moment. He is a bit part player for Sale at the moment and there are plenty of better options about at the moment.

I've always liked the thought of playing Wade and May together, but throw in Miller too who is a deadly broken field runner. The opposition wouldn't want to be kicking too much ball to them.
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Post by Cumbrian Fri 19 Oct 2012, 10:01 am

beshocked wrote:Why does the Saxon squad have 6 wingers?

Would love to see the Vunipola bros in the same XV.

I can see Will Fraser getting a call up for the Saxons as he's been in good form for Sarries.

What's happened with Elliot Daly for Wasps?

Don't know, I guess some of them were supposed to be able to cover centre as well (like Jonny May)

Fraser is a good call, he's been playing well this season and we lack genuine openside options.

Daly is playing pretty well for Wasps, but if I recall he was called up to train with the main squad towards the end of the SN.
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Post by yappysnap Fri 19 Oct 2012, 2:26 pm

With wade and May on either wings (I love that idea btw) i'd really want a very secure full back like Brown or Armitage to cover for them under the high ball and in defence, is Miller that man?

Beshocked Fraser is a good shout he's been playing very well so far, do you think he'll be better then Saull?

Daly is good but seems to be a utility option for Wasps, his defence is also horrific at times.

With Wade and May out wide we want centres that can give them the ball in space often.

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Post by yappysnap Fri 19 Oct 2012, 2:28 pm

Potentially could see Britton and/or Sinckler coming straight from the U20's to the Saxons. They don't get much first team time at the moment but are such talents that they need to be in the system.

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Post by DaveM Fri 19 Oct 2012, 6:30 pm

Cumbrian wrote:
Team I would personally pick:

01. Mako Vunipola (I think he has already overtaken Nathan Catt. Matt Mullan may get called up)
02. Tom Lindsay (Youngs and Gray potentially away with England)
03. Shaun Knight (Henry Thomas is getting no game time and PDJ could be with England)
04. Graham Kitchener
05. George Robson
06. Tom Savage
07. Jamie Gibson/ Matt Kvesic
08. Billy Vunipola (Others will be called up)

09. Joe Simpson
10. Freddie Burns

11. Jonny May
12. Luther Burrell/ Dom Waldouck (Only cot one 12 and he is likely to be called up!)
13. George Lowe
14. Christian Wade
15. Rob Miller


Simpson is a fair call, and the choice between Burns and Ford will be a tight one. I'm not sure what the poijt of playing Robson is, he'll never be a regular international where-as Savage might be so I'd make him focus on lock. May is a wonderful talent but I think Yarde would help with the balance of the side. May at OC would be interesting. I don't think there is much between Knight and Harden at present, although the former is obviously the better prospect. Last night though Harden was highly destructive.

Another very interesting possibility is Eastmond, although what position he'll be playing by the early Spring I'm not sure. I hope he'll end up settling in the centres, although FB is another possibility.

Incidentally I picked Craig because I think he's a nailed on future international. Not sure if his best position is lock or 6, but at present I'm thinking of him as Tom Croft with added physicality. Hopefully he'll be fit soon.

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Post by timhen Fri 19 Oct 2012, 8:35 pm

I don't think there will be as many players going up from the Saxons to the EPS for the 6N as people are suggesting/hoping. There's certainly a few I would make, but apart from injury cover I think Lancaster will largely back the group he selected after having had a good look at most of the options on the summer tour, allowing them a few opportunities to make their case, and saving more changes for the summer. On top of the only at present really long term injury of Webber (which will see either Gray or Youngs come up), I think there will only be one or two more changes.

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Post by Cumbrian Sat 20 Oct 2012, 10:20 am

DaveM wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:
Team I would personally pick:

01. Mako Vunipola (I think he has already overtaken Nathan Catt. Matt Mullan may get called up)
02. Tom Lindsay (Youngs and Gray potentially away with England)
03. Shaun Knight (Henry Thomas is getting no game time and PDJ could be with England)
04. Graham Kitchener
05. George Robson
06. Tom Savage
07. Jamie Gibson/ Matt Kvesic
08. Billy Vunipola (Others will be called up)

09. Joe Simpson
10. Freddie Burns

11. Jonny May
12. Luther Burrell/ Dom Waldouck (Only cot one 12 and he is likely to be called up!)
13. George Lowe
14. Christian Wade
15. Rob Miller


Simpson is a fair call, and the choice between Burns and Ford will be a tight one. I'm not sure what the poijt of playing Robson is, he'll never be a regular international where-as Savage might be so I'd make him focus on lock. May is a wonderful talent but I think Yarde would help with the balance of the side. May at OC would be interesting. I don't think there is much between Knight and Harden at present, although the former is obviously the better prospect. Last night though Harden was highly destructive.

Another very interesting possibility is Eastmond, although what position he'll be playing by the early Spring I'm not sure. I hope he'll end up settling in the centres, although FB is another possibility.

Incidentally I picked Craig because I think he's a nailed on future international. Not sure if his best position is lock or 6, but at present I'm thinking of him as Tom Croft with added physicality. Hopefully he'll be fit soon.

I picked Robson because I assumed that if he is available he will be picked by the Saxons' coaches (John Callard?). Mind you I should probably apply that to the tight head position with Rupert Harden as well.

Craig is an interesting pick, do you really rate him that highly? It's quite a bold claim. I haven't seen him play in ages, but he did look to be turning into a decent player at the arse end of last season.

Again, Eastmond is an interesting pick too, I suppose it depends on where he ends up playing. He started the season on the wing, but he's been moving closer to the action in recent games.
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Post by Geordie Sat 20 Oct 2012, 11:47 am

Is Simpsons basic skills good enough?


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Post by yappysnap Sat 20 Oct 2012, 12:09 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is Simpsons basic skills good enough?


No. I still haven't seen him pass well more then once or twice a game. And his defence seems to be getting worse.

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Post by DaveM Sat 20 Oct 2012, 3:06 pm

Cumbrian wrote:
I picked Robson because I assumed that if he is available he will be picked by the Saxons' coaches (John Callard?). Mind you I should probably apply that to the tight head position with Rupert Harden as well.

Craig is an interesting pick, do you really rate him that highly? It's quite a bold claim. I haven't seen him play in ages, but he did look to be turning into a decent player at the arse end of last season.

Again, Eastmond is an interesting pick too, I suppose it depends on where he ends up playing. He started the season on the wing, but he's been moving closer to the action in recent games.

But I thought you said it was the team you'd personally pick? Robson is an excellent club player, but he's not international class so why waste Saxons caps on him? Let's see how Savage copes with representing his country at lock.

I do rate Craig that highly. Hopefully the injury hasn't held him back too much.

If Eastmond is still on the right wing in the spring then he may be worth a look in that position. I expect him to have moved inside. Hipkiss is decent but Eastmond is unusually gifted and I could see him playing in the centres. It could be even more interesting if he got a run at IC for Bath.

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Post by Cumbrian Sat 20 Oct 2012, 3:11 pm

DaveM wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:
I picked Robson because I assumed that if he is available he will be picked by the Saxons' coaches (John Callard?). Mind you I should probably apply that to the tight head position with Rupert Harden as well.

Craig is an interesting pick, do you really rate him that highly? It's quite a bold claim. I haven't seen him play in ages, but he did look to be turning into a decent player at the arse end of last season.

Again, Eastmond is an interesting pick too, I suppose it depends on where he ends up playing. He started the season on the wing, but he's been moving closer to the action in recent games.

But I thought you said it was the team you'd personally pick? Robson is an excellent club player, but he's not international class so why waste Saxons caps on him? Let's see how Savage copes with representing his country at lock.

I do rate Craig that highly. Hopefully the injury hasn't held him back too much.

If Eastmond is still on the right wing in the spring then he may be worth a look in that position. I expect him to have moved inside. Hipkiss is decent but Eastmond is unusually gifted and I could see him playing in the centres. It could be even more interesting if he got a run at IC for Bath.

I tend to base my picks with half an eye on the constraints of the EPS/ Saxons and who I believe will or won't be available, if I was picking who I'd like without these constraints it would probably look a little different.
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Post by DaveM Sat 20 Oct 2012, 3:13 pm

I see the Saxons about exposing those with the potential for a long international career to the England jersey to see how they cope, even if they aren't yet playing consistently better than some other club players. Hence I'd play Savage instead of Robson. However, England haven't always used the Saxons like that, and often the Saxons squad contains relatively experienced players there as a comfort blanket.

And in fairness there are limits on how quickly you can change players over.

My pick ignored the constraints of the squads and is basically just a group of players I'd like to have a look at together.

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Post by johnpartle Sat 20 Oct 2012, 3:57 pm

I don't think they're picked as a "comfort blanket", they're players who would be expected to step up to the senior side if there was an injury or two, so are kept in and around the England system receiving the expected coaching, preparation and conditioning. Quite aside from that, I think it's very useful to have more experienced players in the squad to provide a better framework to demonstrate the potential in the developing players, just as they'd have the more experienced players around them if they stepped up to the senior side. For example, if you're really interested in what an exciting new FH prsopect can do, putting him outside an experienced SH rather than an equally inexperienced player trying to find his feet would be more illuminating in how he would make the transition.

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Post by DaveM Sat 20 Oct 2012, 10:48 pm

If the Saxons were a 'who's got the most potential' (and not been involved with the senior side) exercise then maybe we'd see something like:

Vunipola
Buchanan
Brookes/Sinkler
Craig
Matthews
Sisi
Kvesic
Vunipola
Spencer
Ford
May
Eastmond
Daly
Wade
Watson

I think it's lock and SH where we'd benefit from some players with serious potential, unless we want to include Itoje and Barrow at lock. I'm not sure about the next generation of SHs, but I'm sure there must be some good ones out there.




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Post by Geordie Sun 21 Oct 2012, 11:18 am

Lock is an interesting one....
Both for the seniors and the saxons.
I see the future seniors as Lawes, Launchbury, Attwood and Kitchener. I would include Garvey aswell...but he just doesnt seem to be rated at all.

For the Saxons id certainly consider looking at Savage...will they look at Garvey this time? Surely they must.
Matthews is talked about, Slater....

I believe the saxons is about developing potential ....BUT you still need a couple of old or experienced heads in there to keep them right....so you could consider the likes of Robson or Parling etc...


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