Steffon Armitage for England?

Wilko backs him, so should Lancaster.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20025686

Thoughts?

Also I'd like to see Delon back in the squad too.

Well since Lancaster has come out and said no English player playing overseas will be considered for the AI's its a mute point.

Robshaw is our 7.

Brown and goode will be FB - till Foden is fit.

the Armitage boys are in good form, but are not available for all the training sessions - so hard to include them

shame- wasnt he man of the match v cardiff the other day. Id love to see him in england team- he doenst seem to make any mistakes!

England should be picking the best players. Steffon is the top performing English 7 at the moment, so he should at least be in the squad.

mawhis,

Not saying he shouldn't be but Lancaster seems pretty adamant that no one outside of England will be considered.

But isnt Robshaw pretty damn good aswell...and improving all the time. Add in Tom Wood also fighting for a 6/7 spot...who has that lineout ability aswell...and you have a selection dilema.

Personally i think Armitage was ignored by Johnson...without good reason....as i believe the same is happening to Garvey now.

I dont think Steffon will be selected....

Then thats a problem for Lancaster & the RFU.

As a England fan I don't care where they're playing as long as they are playing well.

He should be in the squad at least.

Delon back in the squad? Are you joking?

Steffon went to France knowing well that it would have harmed his international prospects. Simply chasing the money offered by Toulon.

If he really wants to be considered for England he should go to Leicester IMO.

Leicester have Salvi at 7 but other than him the cupboard's pretty bare for them in that position IMO. Injuries haven't helped of course.

I am sure Leicester would welcome him with open arms.

Actually Leicester could sign Delon up too as Murphy's not getting any younger.

Of course there's the whole salary cap thing but I am sure adjustments could be made.

Garvey would suit Quins or Saints IMO.

I don't think either Armitage should be written off - but as they are not available for all training sessions it is difficult to involve them - especially as there are better options who are 100% available.

LondonTiger would you want Steffon at Leicester?

beshocked wrote:LondonTiger would you want Steffon at Leicester?

Yes - I think he is excellent at club level. Doubt we can afford him.

beshocked wrote:
Steffon went to France knowing well that it would have harmed his international prospects. Simply chasing the money offered by Toulon.

That's not entirely true. He had fallen out of with Toby Booth at LI and was out of the England reckoning too. Going to Toulon was as much a fresh start as it was about the money.

Don't want delon anywhere near the team he has the wrong attitude this has been proved over and over again, don't get me wrong if we were picking on performance then he should be on the bench as he is a proven international fullback that covers wing and centre but he's a plank and can join cipriani on the outside thinking about how he should have done things differently.

Steffan is the 7 england have been missing but until he plays in england he shouldn't be called up, we need to keep our best players in england hence the rule, he knows this if he wants to play then come home....any team would have him.

Then the Salary cap is holding back English rugby and it needs to be lifted.

Rugby players are only around for a short time so why shouldn't they try and earn as much as they can, everyone else does.

As I said already I don't care where English players are playing as long as they are playing well.

These are Lancaster's recent comments on the matter:

"What makes it difficult when a player plays in France is they are not available for our camps when we need them."

"We have got a camp coming up at the end of this month (at St George's Park) and we have an agreement with the Premiership clubs to have access to the England players.

"It is not under the IRB release window so we can't get the lads who are in the French clubs.

"Toulon were in the French final the day we played South Africa in the first Test (in June) so it creates problems from that point of view.

"You would never say never but it is always going to be harder for players playing in France."

"Over the summer tour Chris Robshaw stole more ball than any other seven playing in the summer, including New Zealand and Australia, but he is also a credible lineout threat and a ball-carrier,"


I'm a big fan of Steffon and would love to see him partner Robshaw, but those points are hard to argue with. Lancaster certainly doesn't rule him out completely though, so it would be interesting if he would consider calling him in as injury cover mid tour after camps had taken place.

I've been saying Steff for years. Went about demolishing Cardiff almost single handedly on the weekend.

beshocked wrote:Delon back in the squad? Are you joking?

Steffon went to France knowing well that it would have harmed his international prospects. Simply chasing the money offered by Toulon.

If he really wants to be considered for England he should go to Leicester IMO.

Garvey would suit Quins or Saints IMO.

Not sure really where to start with these comments to be honest.

Why would bringing Delon back in to the squad be a joke? He is playing seriously well at Toulon, and if selecting solely on ability and form, would be 100% in the mix with Brown and Goode right now. If you don't agree with that statement then fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion however I would seriously question your knowledge about the game.

I am also interested in how you know exactly yhe reasons that Steffon went to France. Perhaps you have spoken to him about it? No? Ah, in that case I'll stick with what I know gleaned from a number of conversations with his father, as well as his brothers whilst at Sunbury.

And why would Garvey suit Quins or Saints any better than he suits Irish? He's our player, and the rest can keep their hands off!!!

Delon and Steffon would only come back to England to sign for Irish. They wouldnt go anywhere else, and thats not just my opinion.

Delon has another year after this in Toulon and I think Steffon might stay out there for one more year, then both hopefully return to Irish!

stnick88 wrote:Delon and Steffon would only come back to England to sign for Irish. They wouldnt go anywhere else, and thats not just my opinion.

Delon has another year after this in Toulon and I think Steffon might stay out there for one more year, then both hopefully return to Irish!

and bring Kendo with them. Toulon don't seem to want him.

hawalsh wrote:These are Lancaster's recent comments on the matter:

"What makes it difficult when a player plays in France is they are not available for our camps when we need them."

"We have got a camp coming up at the end of this month (at St George's Park) and we have an agreement with the Premiership clubs to have access to the England players.

"It is not under the IRB release window so we can't get the lads who are in the French clubs.

"Toulon were in the French final the day we played South Africa in the first Test (in June) so it creates problems from that point of view.

"You would never say never but it is always going to be harder for players playing in France."

"Over the summer tour Chris Robshaw stole more ball than any other seven playing in the summer, including New Zealand and Australia, but he is also a credible lineout threat and a ball-carrier,"


I'm a big fan of Steffon and would love to see him partner Robshaw, but those points are hard to argue with. Lancaster certainly doesn't rule him out completely though, so it would be interesting if he would consider calling him in as injury cover mid tour after camps had taken place.

I am sure read qiote no one outside of England would be considered

Ozzy3213 wrote:

beshocked wrote:Delon back in the squad? Are you joking?

Steffon went to France knowing well that it would have harmed his international prospects. Simply chasing the money offered by Toulon.

If he really wants to be considered for England he should go to Leicester IMO.

Garvey would suit Quins or Saints IMO.

Not sure really where to start with these comments to be honest.

Why would bringing Delon back in to the squad be a joke? He is playing seriously well at Toulon, and if selecting solely on ability and form, would be 100% in the mix with Brown and Goode right now. If you don't agree with that statement then fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion however I would seriously question your knowledge about the game.

I am also interested in how you know exactly yhe reasons that Steffon went to France. Perhaps you have spoken to him about it? No? Ah, in that case I'll stick with what I know gleaned from a number of conversations with his father, as well as his brothers whilst at Sunbury.

And why would Garvey suit Quins or Saints any better than he suits Irish? He's our player, and the rest can keep their hands off!!!

Ozzy you question my knowledge because I disagree? Ha!

There is no chance D.Armitage would be ahead of Brown and Goode who are superior players in England. Goode and Brown have been performing very well for their clubs for a sustainable period. They far ahead in the FB pecking order. Then there's Foden.

D.Armitage is surplus to requirements. Plus there's his pretty poor discipline record to think about. SL doesn't like that kind of player.

D.Armitage would be 4th choice at best but then there's the likes of Abendanon and Miller.

D.Armitage also has the problem that all French based players have. Being released for England games and training.

In regards to Steffon it must be money. Other clubs would have snapped him up. You don't go to Toulon unless it's for money (ok maybe the sun and sand too). They weren't even in the HC last season. If not then what are his reasons? By all means tell. Every English player knows you hamper your international prospects by going to France.

Quins and Saints are top 4 sides. It would boost Garvey's international prospects. As an England fan I want to see him getting recognition and playing for a side in the HC would help him. LI are not a side known for their forwards. It could harm his future and potential prospects.

Not sure it is a 'mute' point but it maybe 'moot'.
Meaning literally up for discussion.
Lancaster has left himself an 'exceptional circumstances' get out clause re: overseas players, so Armitage is by no means totally ruled out, if Lancaster sees otherwise.

Did you actually read what I said. I said judged solely on form and ability. Not disciplinary record or where he plays. If you genuinely believe that Goode and Brown are far ahead and superior players to an in form Delon Armitage then I worry for your sanity.

Why must it have been money for Steffon? Do you know him? I know, that the family have ties to France as they lived there for a number of years and both Steffon and Delon began playing rugby there. I also know some of what was going on at Irish which prompted Steffons exit. I am sure the money was nice for him, but trust me, that is not the reason he left. Also, he had no international prospects at that stage having been frozen out by MJ, so not sure why going to France would be seen to harm him in that regard.

You are indeed correct that Irish are not a side that has been known for their forwards, however that is changing for the better this season under Glen Delaney. Those of us who watch the team regularly have seen a game on game improvement this season with the pack, and there is no reason for this not to continue. Why should showing loyalty (something that Lancaster clearly values), and sticking with Irish and helping the team and himself improve hinder his future international prosepcts?

beshocked wrote:

In regards to Steffon it must be money. Other clubs would have snapped him up. You don't go to Toulon unless it's for money (ok maybe the sun and sand too). They weren't even in the HC last season. If not then what are his reasons? By all means tell. Every English player knows you hamper your international prospects by going to France.

As I understand it, the offer from Toulon came at a time when Steffon had fallen out with Toby Booth at London Irish, and had dropped out of the England reckoning. He was in an unhappy place and wanted a change. The money was a part of it, but not all by any means.

beshocked wrote:
Quins and Saints are top 4 sides. It would boost Garvey's international prospects. As an England fan I want to see him getting recognition and playing for a side in the HC would help him. LI are not a side known for their forwards. It could harm his future and potential prospects.

LI will never be known for their forwards if our best prospects are all poached by more successful sides.

And these boys are not the only English export to France.
The French are loving ze English.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19994411

Ozzy3213 wrote:Did you actually read what I said. I said judged solely on form and ability. Not disciplinary record or where he plays. If you genuinely believe that Goode and Brown are far ahead and superior players to an in form Delon Armitage then I worry for your sanity.

Why must it have been money for Steffon? Do you know him? I know, that the family have ties to France as they lived there for a number of years and both Steffon and Delon began playing rugby there. I also know some of what was going on at Irish which prompted Steffons exit. I am sure the money was nice for him, but trust me, that is not the reason he left. Also, he had no international prospects at that stage having been frozen out by MJ, so not sure why going to France would be seen to harm him in that regard.

You are indeed correct that Irish are not a side that has been known for their forwards, however that is changing for the better this season under Glen Delaney. Those of us who watch the team regularly have seen a game on game improvement this season with the pack, and there is no reason for this not to continue. Why should showing loyalty (something that Lancaster clearly values), and sticking with Irish and helping the team and himself improve hinder his future international prosepcts?

You worry about my sanity when two players actually more consistent and better than Armitage are called more consistent and better?

Goode and Brown have been two very key players in their sides respective sides AP wins. They generally lead the charge when it comes to the HC too.

I know you have a soft spot for Armitage but take off the blinkers. The form full backs are Goode and Brown - they'll be fighting for the England 15 shirt.

Btw I would happily say that Foden has been the no 1 full back but both Brown and Goode have been pressurising him in a way Armitage hasn't.

If Garvey is not in the shop window then how can he prove his worth?

Proof is in the pudding with LI. I'll believe they are improving when I see some consistency.

In his piece for the Telegraph, Ackford stops short of saying whether he thinks England are right or wrong to ignore players overseas, which seems a bit of a cop-out given it's the central point at stake.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9623495/Toulons-Steffon-Armitage-well-aware-of-the-fact-that-he-might-be-frozen-out-of-Stuart-Lancasters-England-plans.html

Clive Woodward certainly thought time in training camps was crucial. He resigned because the RFU couldn't work out a deal with the clubs to guarantee him that kind of access. I like the idea of picking the best players around at any given time but it's hard to see how rugby can work that way anymore.

The whole shape of international selection changed as soon as the World Cup was introduced. Coaches now think in terms of four year cycles so they don't just think of picking a team to win this year's matches, they are always thinking about how to develop a squad to be ready for the big tournament.

If an older player is outside the EPS but starts having a great season - some would argue Nick Easter but it could be anyone - he probably isn't going to get picked if the coach doesn't think he can sustain the performance all the way to the next Cup. If a younger uncapped player looks sharp 18 months out, the coach might think he won't enough have Tests left to gain experience, and so will overlook him.

One of the reasons players in all countries pile up the caps these days is because central contracts, and deals like the EPS, demand greater continuity in selection. When someone like Lievremont chopped and changed, he was considered mad.

I'd be happy to see whether Steffon could translate his Toulon form to Test level but the players overseas have been told the deal. It's interesting when you read people saying "I haven't heard anything from [insert national coaching team]". If a players wants some feedback, I always wonder what's stopping them taking the initiative and getting in touch themselves.

From what Lancaster and Rowntree said in their recent interview, so long as their are good enough options in England, great performances in France won't be enough to get you considered. The main hope for Armitage is for England to be hit by injuries. If Lancaster has to reach outside the EPS anyway for a replacement seven, he might think there's little to lose selecting from France.

Me blinkers?

By saying that in form Delon is on a par with Brown and Goode in terms of ability.

That is one of your best yet beshocked. Just because they won titles playing full back for clubs who had very good teams throughout, does not put them far ahead (your words) of Delon in terms of ability.

Also, I am not disputing who the full backs are, merely pointing out that there is another option, and one that is proven at international level.

Also how is Garvey not in the shop window. He is at an AP club, has played for the Saxons and actually played very well in the 40 minutes he given, but for some reason has been completely frozen out since. I do not believe for one minute that has any connection to playing for Irish, given that Alex Corbisiero had prior to injury cemented himself into the number 1 jersey, and both Jamie Gibson and Jonathan Joseph have been called into the senior squad in the past 12 months.

You are right, London Irish need to show some consistency before people see them as a genuine threat in the top 6 or beyond. Not sure how that equates to your assertion that Garvey should go to Quins or Saints though.

Steffon is unfortunate in that he plays in the same position as the current England captain, which makes leaving him out for playing abroad an easy call to make. If we had no 7 at all, or none who were in any sort fo form, whilst Steffon is pulling up trees in France, it would be much more difficult to leave him out of the squad,as ultimately, despite the need to build towards World Cups, coaches are judged on results. If England get smashed across the AI's and the back row and in particular the breakdown are issues, whislt Steffon continues to outplay all comers in the Top 14 and Heineken Cup, the clamour for his inclusion will only get louder.

It will then be interesting to see how Stuart Lancaster deals with that, and whether or not he would have the balls to stand up and say, actually, we need our best players on the pitch and this guy is outperforming everyone, and then include him in the 6 Nations squad.

Having said that, Robshaw, if he continues the form that he has shown for England, will ensure that it is something that Lancaster doesn't have to really face, as we have a 7 who is performing well, and doesn't deserve to lose the jersey.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Me blinkers?

By saying that in form Delon is on a par with Brown and Goode in terms of ability.

That is one of your best yet beshocked. Just because they won titles playing full back for clubs who had very good teams throughout, does not put them far ahead (your words) of Delon in terms of ability.

Also, I am not disputing who the full backs are, merely pointing out that there is another option, and one that is proven at international level.

Also how is Garvey not in the shop window. He is at an AP club, has played for the Saxons and actually played very well in the 40 minutes he given, but for some reason has been completely frozen out since. I do not believe for one minute that has any connection to playing for Irish, given that Alex Corbisiero had prior to injury cemented himself into the number 1 jersey, and both Jamie Gibson and Jonathan Joseph have been called into the senior squad in the past 12 months.

You are right, London Irish need to show some consistency before people see them as a genuine threat in the top 6 or beyond. Not sure how that equates to your assertion that Garvey should go to Quins or Saints though.

If Armitage had actually done anything of note at international level recently I would be inclined to agree with you. I can't say I have seen Armitage play at FB this season but when he was at LI last season he was not in the same class as Brown and Goode.

The reality is that D.Armitage has not played an international game for quite a while. He's down the pecking order. Too far down.

True actually about Joseph and Gibson. Can't say I agree with it but you are right.

Saints and Quins have consistency.

England need a plan B in case of injury to Robshaw or the backup 7.
Steffon should be considered as an insurance bet.

Goode is a consistent performer but for me not good enough for international. he doesnt stand out in the AP or HC like Brown does for Quins, like Foden has done in the past and like Armitage has done in the past and is doing for Toulon so far this season.

For me, Brown is in control of the 15 shirt and will need some shifting.

stnick88 have you watched any Saracens games in the HC this season?

You are easily writing off Goode without giving him a chance.

Seeing that Brown isn't actually in the 15 shirt for England yet no shifting is needed yet.

gregortree wrote:England need a plan B in case of injury to Robshaw or the backup 7.
Steffon should be considered as an insurance bet.

Back up is tom wood and james haskell, they are tall big ball carriers, leaders on the field and most importantly play in england with james haskell taking a big risk in his career to return to wasps because of his passion for the england jersey.

sirtidychris wrote:

gregortree wrote:England need a plan B in case of injury to Robshaw or the backup 7.
Steffon should be considered as an insurance bet.

Back up is tom wood and james haskell, they are tall big ball carriers, leaders on the field and most importantly play in england with james haskell taking a big risk in his career to return to wasps because of his passion for the england jersey.

Wood is only just coming back from injury, and hasn't really discovered his best form yet, at least not from what I've seen. Haskell has always been brilliant and infuriating at the same time. Armitage is in great form and deserves a shot.

beshocked i have watched both games so far.
i think saracens have been quality so far, apart from about 20 mins v metro when they seemed to take control, but then you stepped it up a gear and won the game.
Goode is a solid player just dont think he has that x-factor that brown has to be a success at international level. he could do a job dont get me wrong and he wouldnt let england down just dont think he has that extra spark.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Did you actually read what I said. I said judged solely on form and ability. Not disciplinary record or where he plays. If you genuinely believe that Goode and Brown are far ahead and superior players to an in form Delon Armitage then I worry for your sanity.

Why must it have been money for Steffon? Do you know him? I know, that the family have ties to France as they lived there for a number of years and both Steffon and Delon began playing rugby there. I also know some of what was going on at Irish which prompted Steffons exit. I am sure the money was nice for him, but trust me, that is not the reason he left. Also, he had no international prospects at that stage having been frozen out by MJ, so not sure why going to France would be seen to harm him in that regard.

You are indeed correct that Irish are not a side that has been known for their forwards, however that is changing for the better this season under Glen Delaney. Those of us who watch the team regularly have seen a game on game improvement this season with the pack, and there is no reason for this not to continue. Why should showing loyalty (something that Lancaster clearly values), and sticking with Irish and helping the team and himself improve hinder his future international prosepcts?

Well sign me up for the head doctor, because I agree with him too - Delon has never really been 'in form', because his 'form' is up and down like Jimmy Saville's tracksuit bottoms. I can't remember him stringing two or three decent games together to be honest.

Haskell and Steffon brings different body shapes / attributes. Steffon with his lower CofG brings more ground grubbing ability as a ball fetcher ? Haskell is a tall destructive attack runner on his good days. Steffon plainly handicapped by NOT being in the Jeff though, so a long shot at the moment.

IMO it's a no brainer to pick Delon Armitage for the bench, his in good form too.

stnick88 we'll see. If that's your opinion fine.

Ultimately at international level you are looking for consistency no?

I would rather have a player who consistently puts in a 7 out of 10 performance than throw in a few 9s, a few 3s etc into the mix.

About spark, Goode has not got the pace for his rivals but he is a creator. I think he can mix things up more than the others as he's played fly half to England U20s level. He's more of a playmaker than the other two IMO.

He performed well in SA, he's in good form. Not sure what more Alex needs to do to silence the doubters.

Mike Brown is of course a good FB but I think both Brown and Goode are very strong options for England.

True Jimpy. Delon has been in the international wilderness for some time and deservedly so.


Ultimately my point is FB is not a position where England are struggling for options. FB is a strength.

Now if there was a lock in barmstorming form who is playing in France that's a different story.

Shaw would be the exception though because he's too old!

In regards to Steffon, Chris Robshaw England captain holds the 7 shirt. He's in good form, one of SL's golden boys.

If Steffon could get special dispensation from Toulon to make all England games and training then of course it becomes a different matter.

Delon on the hand simply is not as good as Goode and Brown.

Brown is too slow for international rugby.

He was tried and tested before, why have people forgotten this?

Good club player nothing more.

Hersh how can you write Brown off so quickly?

Brown has improved a hell of a lot as a player,Brown is also quicker than Goode.

I see vision, running good lines and support play, being able to beat men as more important than raw pace.

HERSH wrote:Brown is too slow for international rugby.

He was tried and tested before, why have people forgotten this?

Good club player nothing more.

When Hersh? A couple of 20 min cameos.

Thats pretty much the same as what Steffon got...and a few others. How on earth can you make a proper judgment on a player in that amount of time? At least give them a few games...in a settled team and then judge them. If they dont hit the mark you can rule them out once and for all...and Garvey is one that springs to mind there. IF hes proven to be not good enough then he will not be mentioned again...and rightly so...but these guys all need a chance.

He was rubbish for England I've seen continents turn and move quicker than Brown.

If selected he'll be shown up once again, he isn't international standard.

Once again why have people forgotten how bad he was in an England shirt?

Geordiefalcon I agree.

Players can actually improve.

I think Brown is a better player than he was when he first was given the opportunity in an England shirt.

How long do you give a player before you completely write them off?

20mins

Brown for me is the most improved player over the last few years.
He has got quicker and now just seems to have a confidence that he didnt used to, backs himself more now and makes things happen.

HERSH wrote:He was rubbish for England I've seen continents turn and move quicker than Brown.

If selected he'll be shown up once again, he isn't international standard.

Once again why have people forgotten how bad he was in an England shirt?

I say again....what chances has he had?

Also harsh to call Brown slow...when bath have the original Super tanker that is Banahan...

Now stop winding me up...im having a stressful day at work as it is...Singapore have my head battered!!

Why are you bringing Banahan into this?
(By the way he has slimmed down and is beginning to look like the player he was (JEFF top try scorer) until MJ and SIM destroyed his confidence, he just keeps getting injured)

Brown isn’t good enough for England far too slow for FB, Saxons maybe but not the 1st XV.

IMO…