Steffon Armitage

by bathmad Tue 14 Oct 2014, 11:46 am

Surely I'm not the only one excited to hear that big Stef may be making a shock return to the Premiership in time for the 6N and world cup...?

With Bath being in the frame, I'm obviously keen!

by No9 Tue 14 Oct 2014, 12:35 pm

So, Bath stump up and sign him. Opens the way to RWC (via 6 Nations) then at the end he does one and goes back to France for the big pay cheque.... Good player or not.. Is that the loyalty you want.

Stinks in my opinion... If Steffon Armitage is good enough and wanted by Lancaster, then he should be selected on merit and not "not selected" because he plays outside of England. OR if you strongly believe in eligibility via playing in England, then don't give loopholes to get around it.

We have the same problem with the so called Gatland's law.... I'm not against the ruling, but I dont like all the exceptions that get made. Make the rule and stick to it. The only exceptions should be for those who left BEFORE the ruling was made. ANYONE who goes after (no matter WHO) should be excluded from selection.

by bathmad Tue 14 Oct 2014, 12:45 pm

You can't blame Armitage for wanting to play international rugby. When he left for Toulon, the likes of Wilkinson, Palmer, Haskell were being picked by Johnson for England, so he could have reasonably assumed he would be in with a shout.
I think he's been very loyal to Toulon and London Irish beforehand, and has excelled for both.

by Mr Bounce Tue 14 Oct 2014, 12:56 pm

It'll be interesting that if he does return, where does he play in the England set-up? Robshaw is obviously our current Captain, so it is unlikely that he'll be dropped. Should he start on the bench? Or if he goes straight into the starting line up, does this mean that SA comes in at 7, Robshaw moves to 6 and Haskell/Wood become surplus to starter requirements?

1) I think this would be very harsh on the 6s
2) Would it upset the seemingly good balance our back row currently has?

by lostinwales Tue 14 Oct 2014, 1:05 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:It'll be interesting that if he does return, where does he play in the England set-up? Robshaw is obviously our current Captain, so it is unlikely that he'll be dropped. Should he start on the bench? Or if he goes straight into the starting line up, does this mean that SA comes in at 7, Robshaw moves to 6 and Haskell/Wood become surplus to starter requirements?

1) I think this would be very harsh on the 6s
2) Would it upset the seemingly good balance our back row currently has?

Absolutely. Mind you, I wouldn't mind finding out one way or the other. If he did play (and assuming Robshaw fit and on form) it would be with robshaw at 6 or with SA as a sub.

by Geordie Tue 14 Oct 2014, 1:05 pm

To be honest...IF we are going down the route of a "traditional" style 7 (fetcher so to speak) in Armitage...then Robshaw isnt the type of 6 i would want.

Id want a far more explosive powerhouse at 6. Haskell or Ewers etc...

by HammerofThunor Tue 14 Oct 2014, 1:18 pm

No9 wrote:So, Bath stump up and sign him. Opens the way to RWC (via 6 Nations) then at the end he does one and goes back to France for the big pay cheque.... Good player or not.. Is that the loyalty you want.

Stinks in my opinion... If Steffon Armitage is good enough and wanted by Lancaster, then he should be selected on merit and not "not selected" because he plays outside of England. OR if you strongly believe in eligibility via playing in England, then don't give loopholes to get around it.

We have the same problem with the so called Gatland's law.... I'm not against the ruling, but I dont like all the exceptions that get made. Make the rule and stick to it. The only exceptions should be for those who left BEFORE the ruling was made. ANYONE who goes after (no matter WHO) should be excluded from selection.

They wouldn't be making exceptions. If he's playing in England and can make all the training sessions he could be selected. If he's only here for a year then the consideration can be, "is this guy going to fit in quickly enough to be a short term advantage". The fact Flood got dropped (officially from the EPS and replaced) when he said he was moving to France suggests that Armitage wouldn't get picked even if he was in England if it was just a year long lone of some sort. If he signs a three year deal? well then he can be considered as normal.

by No9 Tue 14 Oct 2014, 1:57 pm

Agreed Hammer... I was just raising the point that if this is a "way round" Lancaster's "England rule" then it feels wrong. If however, Steffon want to return and play in England and compete for the English jersey, then he should be allowed to. But if the RFU have an hand in this to get him selected before the RWC, then what message does that say to the up and coming players.

However, an earlier point was well made. Steffon left before Lancaster took over and as such before the "rule". So he shouldn't be penalised for that. If however, he comes back and then decided to leave again after the RWC, then a new baseline has been set, and he excludes himself.

Mind you, as most on these boards, its all ifs, whats and when, until a formal announcement is made.

by bathmad Tue 14 Oct 2014, 2:53 pm

Gutted.

http://www1.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12321/9516905/steffon-armitage-will-not-be-making-a-return-to-england-with-bath-says-mike-ford

by nobbled Tue 14 Oct 2014, 3:54 pm

bathmad wrote:Gutted.

http://www1.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12321/9516905/steffon-armitage-will-not-be-making-a-return-to-england-with-bath-says-mike-ford

Yup - shame http://www.therugbyblog.com/bath-deal-to-sign-steffon-armitage-falls-through

by HammerofThunor Tue 14 Oct 2014, 4:08 pm

I imagine Toulon want hiscontract to be paid off (like Tigers did when Castro went). That and his salary couldn't be more than the player he's replacing for the injury dispensation. So no way he could go.

by emack2 Tue 14 Oct 2014, 6:07 pm

What price loyalty?all these players happily earning a pension I n league,France.Japan or
where ever.Suddenly they all want to qualify for a RWC place while others have supported
there countries in the mean time.2016 back on there pension again?

by The Saint Tue 14 Oct 2014, 6:45 pm

Might he be able to leave Toulon at the end of this season, sign for an English club and be in with a shout of the England RWC squad based on his France form? If he IS loyal, that should be an option for him to consider.

by Sgt_Pooly Tue 14 Oct 2014, 8:41 pm

Most overhyped, overrated player in the NH?

by quinsforever Tue 14 Oct 2014, 10:13 pm

You posted that on the wrong thread. This thread is about steffon armitage, who playing at 8 for Toulon after they lost their starting 8 to injury in November, won the European POTY award.

He was clearly rated by his peers and pundits when he got that award. Even above wilko emotionally leading Toulon to HC and top14 victory in his final matches.

Are you upset that Toulon appear to utilise SA's particular strengths better than LI or England ever did? Or do you not recognise that his game has evolved significantly?

by Barney McGrew did it Tue 14 Oct 2014, 10:45 pm

Don’t get all this preciousness about SA. He’s playing his professional sport in France – whoopee dos, him and God knows how many more; I don’t remember Wilko get all this stick about honour and loyalty. The 'rules' have room for exceptions – SA is a much celebrated player in a position that doesn’t have strength in depth in England, sounds like the rules were made for this exception. And tbh if I hear one more semi-wit claim he’s only good because of the team around him, I’ll have a cow man. Using that argument all the ABs are average since they all play with top players – pick the logic out of that cowpat. Who knows, maybe he’s a top player amongst his peers.

by DeludedOptimistorjustDave Tue 14 Oct 2014, 10:57 pm

Lets not forget how crap this lad is behind an average tight 5.
Playing in a Toulon back row would make the most average of players look good.
But let it happen so we all can have a chuckle when the clueless England fans scratch their heads and wonder were it all went wrong.

by Sgt_Pooly Tue 14 Oct 2014, 11:26 pm

Totally agree Dave.

This Steffon hype is just getting silly to be honest. The Steffon argument holds Barney because Armitage doesn't get involved in the graft. He's free to roam and do as he pleases. making carries and targeting the odd breakdown. He's a luxury player who does noticable things, can he do this when others don't cover for him?

by DeludedOptimistorjustDave Tue 14 Oct 2014, 11:35 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Totally agree Dave.

This Steffon hype is just getting silly to be honest. The Steffon argument holds Barney because Armitage doesn't get involved in the graft. He's free to raom and do as he pleases. making carries and targting the odd breakdown. He's a luxury player who does noticable things, can he do this when others don't cover for him?

Robshaw Morgan and Wood should be Englands back row, hard working good tacklers and good ball carriers and non shy away from rucking and mauls.

by quinsforever Wed 15 Oct 2014, 11:00 am

What hype? He has won 2 HCs and 1 euro POTY. That's not hype, them's facts.

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 15 Oct 2014, 1:36 pm

Winning HC's doesn't mean a lot, Erinle won HC's.

by quinsforever Wed 15 Oct 2014, 4:03 pm

No-one is going to win an HC with a crap 8. It's kind of an important position.

Everyone keeps talking about armitage's armchair ride behind a pack of superheroes.

Yet armitage is able to hold onto the 8jersey and win more MOMs that any other player in the Toulon pack.

Is that hype?

by HammerofThunor Wed 15 Oct 2014, 4:08 pm

Well yeah. MOTM is a media drive thing , who are also the ones who drive the hype. If fact, don't ordinary plebs like us vote on the EPOTY?

And No. 8 is only an important position if scrums don't collapse and win you penalties. If you're not controlling the ball on the back of a shifting scrum you're just an extra backrow.

He is a decent player though. And if he moved back to England I happy for him to be considered for the EPS.

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 15 Oct 2014, 4:13 pm

quinsforever wrote:No-one is going to win an HC with a crap 8. It's kind of an important position.

Everyone keeps talking about armitage's armchair ride behind a pack of superheroes.

Yet armitage is able to hold onto the 8jersey and win more MOMs that any other player in the Toulon pack.

Is that hype?

As Hammer says, yes it is. MOTM usually goes to the most visual player, the player doing the flashy things. How often does a lock or prop win man of the match?

Armitage has the license to do these flashy things as other players do the grunt work for him (as many have said numerous times). It's nothing to with a pack of super heroes, it's a pack of top class players doing the dirty work whilst he concentrates on his game.

by fa0019 Wed 15 Oct 2014, 4:14 pm

No team will secure any ball without a decent hooker. No scrum will maintain without a decent tighthead and the backs are only good if the scrumhalf can get them the ball. Could almost say that about every position.

Armitage like his brother have been standout in a team of stars where they have multiple "world class" mercs in their position... yet they both tend to start and do very well.

European player of the year is no mean feat.

by quinsforever Wed 15 Oct 2014, 4:34 pm

Motm is chosen by former players who commentate on the match.

Moore, Barnes, etc.

So they are just falsely hype-ing armitage too?

Looks like there's a bit of a conspiracy here involving players, commentators, pundits, managers and fans.

The resason armitage wins so many motm awards is that he dominates, especially at the turnover. If that is "flashy" then so be it. His power to height ratio make him almost un-clear-out-able.

by fa0019 Wed 15 Oct 2014, 4:38 pm

anyone who can look standout amongst Smith, Masoe, Lobbe, Gorgodze is doing something right.

MOTM awards yes they can be biased.

but player of the year chosen by panels/ fellow players etc. Less so.

Then again... Richie McCaw got IRB player of the year in 2009 (didn't get it in the years he did deserve it), Dausitoir in 2011 etc etc so panels are not full proof.

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 15 Oct 2014, 4:38 pm

Of course it's flashy Quins. Flanker is/can be a flashy position, especially when you have other doing the clearing out for you. He can carry and look for turnovers, thats as flashy as it gets in the pack and it gets you noticed, especially when you have Barnes wetting himself at the very mention of his name.

We're obviously not going to agree on Armitage and I don't think we'll be proved right unless he moves back to the AP and gets a run in team that doesn't do his dirty work for him.

by fa0019 Wed 15 Oct 2014, 4:42 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Of course it's flashy Quins. Flanker is/can be a flashy position, especially when you have other doing the clearing out for you. He can carry and look for turnovers, thats as flashy as it gets in the pack and it gets you noticed, especially when you have Barnes wetting himself at the very mention of his name.

We're obviously not going to agree on Armitage and I don't think we'll be proved right unless he moves back to the AP and gets a run in team that doesn't do his dirty work for him.

In the end no one, no one looks good in a inferior pack. Richie McCaw in a Scotland jersey would just be about decent.

Jon Barclay was the best openside in the UK around 2008-2010... yet he didn't even get on the lions tour.... and with the crazy rules the Lions could have done with someone like him in the side.

by bedfordwelsh Wed 15 Oct 2014, 8:53 pm

Never really thouh a great deal of him and to me it seems he is getting built up more due to his current non availability and people saying if only he was available etc etc.

So is he that good? If he comes back to England and on form before the WC would he start ahead of Robshaw? Is he your best option at 7?

by The Saint Thu 16 Oct 2014, 10:57 pm

Toulon have apparently said this now: http://www.espn.co.uk/premiership-2014-15/rugby/story/244389.html

So going back to my original comment on here, couldn't he get selected for England based on his Toulon form? He's European POTY, why wouldn't you want him in your squad? Obvs I'd leave out his brother though...

by No 7&1/2 Fri 17 Oct 2014, 7:58 am

He could get selected on form I would think but he doesn't qualify for selection at the moment so it's moot.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 19 Oct 2014, 1:21 am

The Telegraph is suggesting that Lancaster was not inclined to immediately name Armitage in his EPS next week. This meant that Bath would not collect money from the RFU for him and this was a factor in the deal breaking down.

Having said that, the paper also goes on to say that Lancaster is only naming his Autumn squad, not his EPS, so I'm not sure exactly what the status of the players is supposed to be.

Here's the passage:

Telegraph Sport also understands that Steffon Armitage would not have made the squad, even if he had moved from Toulon to Bath. This was a sticking point in the deal, with the Elite Player Squad money Bath might have received believed to have been crucial.

The England management are also believed to be very happy with the form of their prospective back-rowers, with Robshaw’s game having picked up this season. Due to the number of injuries Lancaster will not name his 33-man EPS on Wednesday and will instead just name a squad for the forthcoming internationals

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11172049/England-coach-Stuart-Lancaster-prepares-to-name-Semesa-Rokoduguni-and-Anthony-Watson-in-squad.html

by maestegmafia Sun 19 Oct 2014, 5:16 am

Austin Healey wrote:I must admit to being a little bit surprised at the fuss that has been made about the supposed tussle between Bath and Toulon over the services of Steffon Armitage.

I was told over the rumour mill that Bath were going to pay Toulon €1 million (about £790,000), including wages, to sign Armitage for a season, and then he was going to go back to Toulon.

I know Bruce Craig is rich, but one thing he certainly is not is stupid. You would have to be absolutely insane to pay €1 million for Armitage for the year and then give him back. Which made me think the rumour was weak at best.

You may as well chuck €1 million in the fire and watch it go up. He could get injured in the first week and it is not as if Bath do not have a good back row as it is, even if they have a few injuries at the moment, with Francois Louw, Carl Fearns and Matt Garvey out.

I know Armitage was fantastic last season but I think there has been a bit of a frenzy in the press about him and the fact that he currently cannot be picked for England.

He was the one who chose to go over to France to get paid more money and he knows the rules. If he wanted to come back, he could have done so. Under his own steam.

But at the time, when he left, he was nowhere near good enough to play for England.

And if you look at the make-up of the back row now in Stuart Lancaster’s squad, Armitage still is not good enough to play for England. He does not suit that back-row mix.

Who are you going to drop out of the current back row? Billy Vunipola? Chris Robshaw, the England captain? Tom Wood, probably England’s best player? Ben Morgan, who has had a fantastic time with England.

Including Armitage would cause a big shake-up, which I do not think they have time to do now before the World Cup, so for me, he does not get on. Maybe at best on the bench.

Bernard Laporte, the Toulon director of rugby, played a blinder in his response, saying that unless Armitage is guaranteed to play in the World Cup, then they are not going to let him go.

Lancaster is hardly going to offer a letter written in his blood confirming that. I found the whole situation rather strange.

And now we hear that he might pursue a route playing for France. The truth of it is that he really only wants to play for England and if he is denied that chance, does he play for France just to spite Lancaster?

Because Armitage cannot really want to play for France, can he? I know he has lived there for a number of years now. But realistically, if he was stood in the changing room at Twickenham next year and the France team are speaking in French to each other and start screaming, “Let’s smash these English b-------” is he going to agree with them. Or is he going to go “Er, hold on a second.”

Back in October 1995, Noel Whelan, the former Ireland manager, came to see me while I was playing for Orrell after we had beaten Wasps when they were playing at QPR’s ground and asked me if I would play for Ireland.

At that stage I had not been picked for England or England A and I qualified to play for Ireland through my grandfather, who was from Cork.

I was frustrated that I was not getting selected for England when people like Matt Dawson and Andy Gomarsall were, and I knew I was a much better player than them at the time.

My face just did not fit at the time and the phrase that Noel used was, “We really want you to play for us”. When someone shows that commitment it is quite easy to spite yourself and not look at the long term.

I asked for some time to have a think about it and phoned my dad. He asked me the same question. If I was stood in the Irish changing room and they started saying, “Let’s get stuck into these English idiots”, would I truly believe it? The answer to that was “No”.

Maybe that mindset does not exist any more when you see the number of players who are playing for countries where they have not been born or lived for most of their life - and England have been as guilty as this as anyone else.

Mike Catt, for example, could not be more South African but he would probably say that the opportunity arose to play for England and he took it with both hands, developed a very successful career with them and became synonymous with the shirt and is now coaching the side.

A lot of teams are now just hiring mercenaries. Unless you have lived in a country and had a passport for a long period of time, then it seems ludicrous to be able to exploit the qualification rules.

Austin Healey is proud to be an ambassador of the new Jeep Grand Cherokee

by The Saint Sun 19 Oct 2014, 5:22 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:He could get selected on form I would think but he doesn't qualify for selection at the moment so it's moot.

He has to play in England a certain time before qualifying?

by BigTrevsbigmac Sun 19 Oct 2014, 6:44 am

Apparently Toulon were told that Stefan wasn't going to be selected for the EPS next week & Bath therefor wouldn't have received the relevant compensation.
This was a major factor in the deal not bring completed.

by nathan Sun 19 Oct 2014, 8:59 am

I see mm still on the anti English bandwagon. .

by thomh Sun 19 Oct 2014, 1:26 pm

The Saint wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:He could get selected on form I would think but he doesn't qualify for selection at the moment so it's moot.

He has to play in England a certain time before qualifying?

No, but he doesn't play in England, and isn't going to it seems.

by maestegmafia Sun 19 Oct 2014, 1:37 pm

nathan wrote:I see mm still on the anti English bandwagon. .

What a vile comment...! Anti English what?

How an earth can me posting an article by one England player on another be "Anti English"...! Trolling is against the house rules and I have reported you for it.

by nathan Sun 19 Oct 2014, 2:23 pm

The mods are already well aware of your postings mm

by maestegmafia Sun 19 Oct 2014, 2:25 pm

Why don't you explain what on earth you consider anti English about this post?

Otherwise, quit the trolling...!!!

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 19 Oct 2014, 2:44 pm

I don't think this really warrants a new thread.

This one is still active in the International forum and covers the same issues

https://www.606v2.com/t56029-steffon-armitage

There's also this one in the Club forum, covering the same ground:

https://www.606v2.com/t56021-armitage-maybe-on-his-way-backor-not

We've even got these two, and both go into a debate about whether he's worth a place in the England team:

https://www.606v2.com/t36344-steffon-armitage-for-england

https://www.606v2.com/t54542-sarmitage-the-frenchman

by **LondonTiger** Sun 19 Oct 2014, 2:46 pm

nathan wrote:I see mm still on the anti English bandwagon. .

I had no issue with that post, other than I wish people would put other peoples words into the quote function. then it would be clear who is saying what.

by maestegmafia Sun 19 Oct 2014, 2:48 pm

LT the title does specifically say that it is Austin Healey's article. Not my own...

I don't think quotation marks could make that any clearer.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 19 Oct 2014, 3:08 pm

Could the mods merge this article with one of the other Armitage threads before it goes meta?

by **LondonTiger** Sun 19 Oct 2014, 4:42 pm

maestegmafia wrote:LT the title does specifically say that it is Austin Healey's article. Not my own...

I don't think quotation marks could make that any clearer.

Using the Quote function would make it explicit what may or may not be added by a poster. That way any antagonistic remarks made by a 3ed party cannot be attributed to the poster.

As to Healey's musings. Pretty much what those of us who are not convinced that Steffon is the saviour have been saying.

by Barney McGrew did it Sun 19 Oct 2014, 5:36 pm

Not sure I'm a great fan of Austin's opinions tbh - just can't see the attraction in the new Jeep Grand Cherokee

by **Notch** Sun 19 Oct 2014, 6:45 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:Could the mods merge this article with one of the other Armitage threads before it goes meta?

I quite like the idea of this going meta. I like Charlie Kaufman films so I'm into it.

But yeah, I'll have a look. Don't just post in a thread if you think it should be merged. Use the report thing, we don't and can't read every thread. We have lives and jobs, unbelievably. So you need to report something if you think it should be merged.

by **Notch** Sun 19 Oct 2014, 6:47 pm

Merged the Healey article with the older one on Steffon Armitage

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