Introduction of regional rugby union teams in Wales

Always find this an intresting read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_of_regional_rugby_union_teams_in_Wales

Some of you will disagree with parts and the way the Clubs have been written to behave, but it's prob the closest we can get to what happen in 2003.

I think with other threads wishing a return to Clubs etc etc, it may be intresting to look at what could have been.

The WRU's plan was for four provincial sides, all of which would be under the control of the Welsh Rugby Union with the existing clubs acting as feeder clubs


1)
Province location Feeder clubs

Stradey Park, Llanelli; Llanelli RFC, Swansea RFC, Neath RFC

Cardiff Arms Park, Cardiff; Cardiff RFC, Bridgend RFC, Pontypridd RFC

Rodney Parade, Newport; Newport RFC, Caerphilly RFC, Ebbw Vale RFC

Racecourse Ground, Wrexham; Fed from all North Wales clubs (initially using players from the south)


Whats intresting is the WRU were planing a North Wales team, Dragons would have been about the same as they are now.
Can't help but think the Stradey park based side would have been good enough for a H-cup win, would Parc Y Scarlets ever have been built or would they have just moved to Liberity stadium? Blues would have been stronger also. North Wales would have got thier team as well.

Can't help but think if the Clubs hadn't interfered, that by this stage, this would have been better for Wales. 3 teams in the south instead of the four (five intially) and resources pooled better.

But the proposal was rejected by the Premier League clubs, who had expected five 'superclubs' to be formed made up of partnerships between existing clubs. Was this shortsighted? Intresting that the prem clubs proposals, never include a North team.

They did put forward, six of the nine clubs in the Welsh Premiership agreed on a plan that would see 4 regional franchise, with each club holding 50% of a franchise. Unless otherwise agreed, matches would be equally split between venues of both clubs;

2)
Partner clubs

Swansea RFC (St. Helens)
Llanelli RFC (Stradey Park)

Neath RFC (The Gnoll)
Bridgend RFC (Brewery Field)

Cardiff RFC (Cardiff Arms Park)
Pontypridd RFC (Sardis Road)

Newport RFC (Rodney Parade)
Ebbw Vale RFC (Eugene Cross Park)

Ok no North Wales team, but this doesn't look to bad either. Games split 50/50, if teams can agree looks like some strong teams could emerge (again Dragon region pretty much the same as it is now).

However Cardiff RFC and Llanelli RFC were opposed to this structure, stating that it "was not in the best interests of Welsh rugby". How true is this, not in the intrests of Cardiff RFC and Llanelli RFC maybe?

Anyway it ended up with the two stand alone clubs and 3 combined teams, now 2. Did a fifth team ever stand a chance as both proposals only ever had 4 teams?

Can't help but think that if the Clubs had accepted either option 1) or 2) Welsh regional rugby would be stronger today, maybe have a North Wales team in option one, and a good chance one of the sides would have won a H-cup in either.

Would fans be anymore accepting of regions now if one of 1) or 2) was adopted?

I know it makes no difference (and Rugby in Wales lies with the current regions) and we are dealing in what ifs, but its intresting to speculate.

Yes but the big flaw in this kind of exercise in hindsight is that the WRU were skint, and totally at the mercy of the moneymen. That hasn't changed imo but they're happily burying their head in the sand while the golden goose of clwb cymru is still laying golden eggs. What happens when the benefactors have had enough and all our players end up in France? A better structure wouldn't prevent this, what we need is to stop trying to emulate the Irish and allow the four viable pro teams to be run as businesses.

The main point Kingshu is that the tradition of Welsh rugby was, hadn't ever been and for all I/we know, will never be associated with regions.

Just because Ireland had a fortuitous pre-existing historic socio-political structure is not a framework which can be transplanted artificially on another nation.

Scotland has gone to hell in a handcart on artificial regions.

greytiger wrote:The main point Kingshu is that the tradition of Welsh rugby was, hadn't ever been and for all I/we know, will never be associated with regions.

Just because Ireland had a fortuitous pre-existing historic socio-political structure is not a framework which can be transplanted artificially on another nation.

Scotland has gone to hell in a handcart on artificial regions.

Scotland has always had the inter districts same as Ireland,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_of_Scotland_rugby_union_team

The district championship provided a level of representative rugby above club competition but below the full Scottish national team.

The South also competed in the annual Scottish inter-district championship, playing against the district teams of Glasgow, Edinburgh, North-Midlands and sometimes Anglo-Scots

These are the 4 teams they started with, Border Reivers, Glasgow, Edinburgh and Caledonia Reds

This is the highest level of Rubgy in Scotland, so why not enter it.

Presumably the Stradey team would have been 'West Wales'

The Arms Park team 'South'

Rodney Parade 'East' and

the Wrexham team 'North'.

Would have been perfect.

What Wales really got was,

Region name; Owners

Scarlets; Llanelli RFC

Ospreys; Neath RFC and Swansea RFC

Cardiff Blues; Cardiff RFC

Newport Gwent Dragons; Newport RFC and WRU

Bridgend RFC falling into Ospreys, Pontypridd RFC supposed to fall in with Cardiff but no incentive to do so. Ebbw Vale RFC being bought out of Dragons did to difficultly being replaced by WRU.

Really when you look at it, its a mess.

Would it be better to disband the regions and try with option 1)?

Probably Kingshu, but Roger Lewis has said we're sticking with the current model/shambles.

Can't fight it forever, it's time to make the most of a horrendously awful job and wave the flag for the current pro teams.

WRU could help by sharing the 'record high turnover' more fairly, for starters.

Reading the history of welsh rugby post 1995 is just too upsetting for me....

It's a mess! There's plenty of stupidity in that write up and it's annoying to read!

Casartelli wrote:Probably Kingshu, but Roger Lewis has said we're sticking with the current model/shambles.

Can't fight it forever, it's time to make the most of a horrendously awful job and wave the flag for the current pro teams.

WRU could help by sharing the 'record high turnover' more fairly, for starters.

Realistically, if the WRU were just to sort out the promotion of the regions, and the advertising, and the other business skills that would be a start. If the teams could get the same sort of public interest as the national side (but obviously spread amongst the four of them) they would be able to be self funding easy.

Impossible Standards wrote:Reading the history of welsh rugby post 1995 is just too upsetting for me....

It's a mess! There's plenty of stupidity in that write up and it's annoying to read!

To be fair as you are a Dragons fan, nothing would have changed for you under any of the proposials, WRU's Provinces would have seen the same Dragons region playing out of Newport, option 2) would have been the same, and what Wales ended up with was the same.

In any of the proposials Dragons never really changed, being half bought out by the WRU would have happened in any model.

Dragons region was the one constant in it all.

King - realistically option 2 was not viable for the Llanelli/Swansea in the same team, as Swansea were going bankrupt and Llanelli could not have afforded to keep them afloat, they would have folded in under a season.

What about option 1) ScarletSpiderman,
Llanelli RFC, Swansea RFC, Neath RFC

Now that would have been some team over the years, and currently. Pretty much Scarlets and Ospreys combined. I bet they would have been well supported by now as I'm sure they could have won a H-cup.

With the Provinve option 1) system, you would have had 2 super teams one ok team (Dragons) and a growing North team.

Of the parts I actually beleive of that I think the first option was what everyone was going for (except you know who)

But even then IMHO it wouldn't have been perfect and was a short term answer.

Inventing regions was never going to work, it wouldve been something if the WRU had been honest and said right 2 clubs combine to create a superclub and we'll go from there, but they were partly at the money mens mercy and partly too spineless.

Regionalism is all but dead, and the fact that Lewis has to keep making remarks to it being here for the foreseeable worries me even more!!!

Kingshu wrote:What about option 1) ScarletSpiderman,
Llanelli RFC, Swansea RFC, Neath RFC

Now that would have been some team over the years, and currently. Pretty much Scarlets and Ospreys combined. I bet they would have been well supported by now as I'm sure they could have won a H-cup.

With the Provinve option 1) system, you would have had 2 super teams one ok team (Dragons) and a growing North team.

Llanelli RFC could not consider this option as both Swansea RFC and Neath RFC were going bankrupt. They did go bankrupt, fortunately before the Ospreys were formed which worked out OK for them as the Ospreys became the only "Region" not to inherit the debts of their founder clubs. This gave them a financial head start on the other regions.

If the Swans continue to prosper in the Premiere leauge and take over the Liberty as a footie only ground we may yet see a combined Scarlets Ospreys team playing at PYS.

Seagul

From what I remember the only reason Llanelli RFC would not consider that was that they wanted and felt they deserved to be stand alone!!!

Bluesman,

The facts are the facts, Swansea were in recievership and Neath were heading there. How could Llanelli RFC possibly join up with either or both, they already had debts of their own to service?

Should have just gone with an East/West split like we used to in the olden days of trials and sent them off to the HEC on central contracts with a North team made up of youngsters, nearly's & old heads in the Amlin.

Of course the West team would be playing out of a £50m redeveloped Parc y Strade ..... in red!

Seagultaf wrote:Bluesman,

The facts are the facts, Swansea were in recievership and Neath were heading there. How could Llanelli RFC possibly join up with either or both, they already had debts of their own to service?

Neath had actually been declared bankrupt. They were bailed out by the WRU before Cuddy came on the scene. They actually had to form a new business and be readmitted to the league.

Far too much emphasis on being competitive for a euro competition rather than focusing on a strong domestic league first, giving wider access to all club rugby fans in Wales.

It is not the regions who are responsible for welsh test success, it is the national coaches, who I suspect could have achieved the same with club as opposed to regional players. Too late now though, the WRU have made their bed and have got to lie in it.

I don't believe that Llanelli RFC wouldn't join with Swansea and Neath due to finicial problem, sure Swansea-Neath became one of the richest teams in Wales. I think it was more down to wanting to stand alone.

However a Scarlets and Ospreys Joined team may be down the line, whenever the North team are ready.

Would mean the WRU get pretty much what they orginally wanted, except Bridgend would swap to Blues.

Kingshu wrote:I don't believe that Llanelli RFC wouldn't join with Swansea and Neath due to finicial problem, sure Swansea-Neath became one of the richest teams in Wales. I think it was more down to wanting to stand alone.

However a Scarlets and Ospreys Joined team may be down the line, whenever the North team are ready.

Would mean the WRU get pretty much what they orginally wanted, except Bridgend would swap to Blues.

THe money was a major issue in the Llanelli not wanting to merge with any struggling side, coupled with the fac they were using anything west of Llanelli as feeder clubs to Llanelli already, were functioning as a semi-region alreadY (cue the arguements about this).

I am not too sure about a Scarlets & Ospreys merger, theoretically it would be brilliant. However the Ospreys are doing a fair bit of marketing and reaching out to the people who are living in the east of their region, bridgend etc. And the Scarlets are doing similar for Pembs and Ceridigion (the far west of their region) so what would happen to the fans from those areas, as most likely the merged team would end having to focus on getting people from Llanelli and Swansea to get behind the side, and neglect the others.

Lots of impassioned opinions, conjecture and debate, but I fail to see a point...?

We have four regions, they are elite level rugby in Wales. Pick your colours get behind them, or don't.

maestegmafia wrote:Lots of impassioned opinions, conjecture and debate, but I fail to see a point...?

We have four regions, they are elite level rugby in Wales. Pick your colours get behind them, or don't.

Just looking at what could have been, of course there's no point to it, but it is intresting to speculate.

I do see a time though that 2 of the 4 regions are asked to combine to allow entry of a RCG1404 to the Pro 12.

Scarlets and Ospreys was kinda what the WRU orginally wanted, but with WRU owning 50% of Dragons it could be them and Blues with WRU then owning 25% of new region?

Possibly.

Though the financial long term targets in Wales appear to be more ambitious looking at five regions.

I don't think losing/combining regions has any benefit in the future.

The WRU's plan seems to be more to clear ourselves of debt, build slowly and with measure for a healthy future. More players more rugby, better quality better results.

Kingshu wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Lots of impassioned opinions, conjecture and debate, but I fail to see a point...?

We have four regions, they are elite level rugby in Wales. Pick your colours get behind them, or don't.

Just looking at what could have been, of course there's no point to it, but it is intresting to speculate.

I do see a time though that 2 of the 4 regions are asked to combine to allow entry of a RCG1404 to the Pro 12.

Scarlets and Ospreys was kinda what the WRU orginally wanted, but with WRU owning 50% of Dragons it could be them and Blues with WRU then owning 25% of new region?

I think with the formation of Region Rugby Wales, and the issues between the regions and the WRU in the past, the only way the WRU would be able to merge regions would be if one went belly up financially. Just look at the nonesence offer the WRU put out for the centralised contracts, they were told to get knotted, and are now apparently trying to come up with a more pleasing offer.

The WRU may give the regions money, however without the regions producing the players the WRU would not be making any money at all. After all rugby in Wales has only really started to become big money after we started winning things. If the regions and WRU do clash, and players get 'injured' before international windows (like Welsh internationals always do in football), the national side would win squat, and the huge number of party going supporters in their pink hats would die off, and then the WRU would be broke. So IMO the WRU needs to be sensible when dealing with the regions, and forcing them into more nonesence (like the angl-welsh, and addition international) by merging two region would not go down well at all.

maestegmafia wrote:Lots of impassioned opinions, conjecture and debate, but I fail to see a point...?

We have four regions, they are elite level rugby in Wales. Pick your colours get behind them, or don't.

"A generation which ignores history has no past and no future."

Robert A. Heinlein

Recwatcher wrote:Far too much emphasis on being competitive for a euro competition rather than focusing on a strong domestic league first, giving wider access to all club rugby fans in Wales.

It is not the regions who are responsible for welsh test success, it is the national coaches, who I suspect could have achieved the same with club as opposed to regional players. Too late now though, the WRU have made their bed and have got to lie in it.

Regions come in in 2003 Wales then win 3 Grand Slams in under 10 years, we had not won one in the previous 20 years, even when we had the future All Black World Cup winning coach in charge.

wayne wrote:

Recwatcher wrote:Far too much emphasis on being competitive for a euro competition rather than focusing on a strong domestic league first, giving wider access to all club rugby fans in Wales.

It is not the regions who are responsible for welsh test success, it is the national coaches, who I suspect could have achieved the same with club as opposed to regional players. Too late now though, the WRU have made their bed and have got to lie in it.

Regions come in in 2003 Wales then win 3 Grand Slams in under 10 years, we had not won one in the previous 20 years, even when we had the future All Black World Cup winning coach in charge.

I agree with Wayne, regions mean there is more chance of players staying in Wales, (regions are struggling to keep them, there is no way clubs would have been able to), then in Wales it means they have more access to national coaches and training sessions making th enational team stronger.

Look at Ireland as well, 1990-99 4 wooden spoons, and never higher than 2nd bottom, but from the all time 6 nations table they are second just behind France, some improvement, and it started at same time as Provinces began to be able match the English clubs, and bring the Best Irish players back to Ireland.

For Wales its the same, try and keep the international players in your country where you have better access and coaching available to them, and you give the national side a better chance to achieve.

Kingshu, I wouldn't disagree with anything you have said, it is simply that making the top tier of any team sport an elitist restricted access over the long term is A dangerous game. Perhaps in Ireland there was no other choice but to have effectively four Ireland trials sides. In Wales there was an alternative for a far wider scene, but a short cut has been taken and the fans have clearly voted with their feet.

Recwatcher wrote:Kingshu, I wouldn't disagree with anything you have said, it is simply that making the top tier of any team sport an elitist restricted access over the long term is A dangerous game. Perhaps in Ireland there was no other choice but to have effectively four Ireland trials sides. In Wales there was an alternative for a far wider scene, but a short cut has been taken and the fans have clearly voted with their feet.

An alternative? The alternative was mass bankrupcy, the loss of pro rugby, and 70-100 point hidings in the Heineken Cup. This is what we had pre-2003, when the fans were also 'voting with their feet'. By holding on to this myth that the Welsh public have lost their love for pro rugby devalues anything you have to say on the subject, as the crowds have not been there for decades. The root of the regional problem is that the pro clubs in Wales face a serious competitor from Team Wales, which cannibalises both the pro teams and the floating Welsh rugby supporters.

12 pro clubs is the only way we'll get out of this rot. Bluesman says so.

See Morgs come around finally!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:See Morgs come around finally!!

After seeing what happened to the Blues this weekend, I would hate to thing what would have happened to Cardiff RFC or Ebbw Vale