Anti-English Sentiment In Lions 15's

First topic message reminder :

I'm seeing more and more prospective Lions 15's with either 1 or no English players which is utterly ludicrous! I couldn't care less which nationality player pulls on the jersey in the summer,I just hope that gatland isnt as blinkered as some posters on this board.

Cole and Marler and Sheridan are smashing it up in the prem/top 14 and Heineken
Robshaw at the minute is a stand out flankers and leader
Danny Care is on fire and Ben Youngs ain't far behind
Tuilagi is un matched in the British isles any country would love to have him in their side!
Foden and Ashton are sure to travel though I admit Kearney will start with North and Bowe is close to Ashton

All of the above must travel with obviously the rest being made up with the awesome Welsh and Irish boys!

Don't understand the anti English feeling on this board

GeordieFalcon wrote:Isnt Rennie out for a year? Or did i read that wrong?

Gray needs to get the hell out of Sale...we want him at his best...and surely now we can move on from Phillips?

I think that's Bryan Rennie, Ross Rennie's had lots of injury problems in the past but looks OK at the moment - touch wood

I'm seeing more and more prospective Lions 15's with either 1 or no English players which is utterly ludicrous!

Nope. It's spot on because England are rubbish. Give me a Welsh and Irish Lions any day.

mikey_philVIII wrote:

I'm seeing more and more prospective Lions 15's with either 1 or no English players which is utterly ludicrous!

Nope. It's spot on because England are rubbish. Give me a Welsh and Irish Lions any day.

Richard. Head.

mikey_philVIII wrote:

I'm seeing more and more prospective Lions 15's with either 1 or no English players which is utterly ludicrous!

Nope. It's spot on because England are rubbish. Give me a Welsh and Irish Lions any day.

Wahey Mikey...

Well we'll join up with our mates in the North...and as both England and Scotland know how to beat the Aussies...lets see what happens

mikey_philVIII wrote:

I'm seeing more and more prospective Lions 15's with either 1 or no English players which is utterly ludicrous!

Nope. It's spot on because England are rubbish. Give me a Welsh and Irish Lions any day.

You do know that is nonsense right?

If their individual players are not selected it doesn't mean the whole team or the collective English is rubbish. It only means that indivually it makes sense to call up other combinations that doesn't necessarily pick english players.

Dense lack of silverware for the men in white since 2003, it's embarrassing. I don't get why. England have all the man-power, structures to be successful. Geordie's friends up North aren't great, but they can boast some world class individuals who can make a great contribution to the Lions.

I could swear England won the 6N in 2011.....don't let the facts spoil a rubbish post eh

mikey_philVIII wrote:

Dense lack of silverware for the men in white since 2003, it's embarrassing. I don't get why. England have all the man-power, structures to be successful. Geordie's friends up North aren't great, but they can boast some world class individuals who can make a great contribution to the Lions.

I think that you would make a great contribution to society as a whole by throwing yourself in front of a train.

Oops, did I really say that?

My bad

Did I say they had not won? Even one trophy is still lacking during all these years! It's a shame you failed to get the cherry on top that year. Still I was cheering you all the way.

Jimpy wrote:

mikey_philVIII wrote:

Dense lack of silverware for the men in white since 2003, it's embarrassing. I don't get why. England have all the man-power, structures to be successful. Geordie's friends up North aren't great, but they can boast some world class individuals who can make a great contribution to the Lions.

I think that you would make a great contribution to society as a whole by throwing yourself in front of a train.

Oops, did I really say that?

My bad

Just how boring can a person get. Now if you'll excuse me, Gimpy, I have to go watch some paint dry!

OK boys, let's not allow this to go down the tubes.

Mikey Phil you are entitled to your opinion, however to say a whole team is rubbish is just inviting negative retort, besides that, a team ranked in the top 6 cannot be rubbish, what does that say for the other teams?

Jimpy, although I knida agree with your reaction, let's keep it civil please.

Aw stop winding them all up Mikey you dastardly cad....

After your black hole days since the glory days of the 70's we thought it only right to give you guys a little glimmer of light...but you pesky welsh have taken a bit more than we were going to allow...so we're going to have to put our foot down now. We'll let you boys have the share of the Lions......then we'll take over the NH supremecy again...

Biltong, you are spot on, I was just bored. However, poor show for a moderator to think I should go throw myself under a train . If people still said that about South Africans I think you would be quite upset...

Biltong wrote:OK boys, let's not allow this to go down the tubes.

Mikey Phil you are entitled to your opinion, however to say a whole team is rubbish is just inviting negative retort, besides that, a team ranked in the top 6 cannot be rubbish, what does that say for the other teams?

Jimpy, although I knida agree with your reaction, let's keep it civil please.

Sorry, I thought I was being helpful

mikey_philVIII wrote:Biltong, you are spot on, I was just bored. However, poor show for a moderator to think I should go throw myself under a train . If people still said that about South Africans I think you would be quite upset...

He didn't he said he 'kinda' agreed, he was actually thinking 'bus' rather than train. And I don't recall anyone suggesting that South Africans should perform such actions, so how could they 'still' be suggesting it?

Jimpy wrote:

mikey_philVIII wrote:Biltong, you are spot on, I was just bored. However, poor show for a moderator to think I should go throw myself under a train . If people still said that about South Africans I think you would be quite upset...

He didn't he said he 'kinda' agreed, he was actually thinking 'bus' rather than train. And I don't recall anyone suggesting that South Africans should perform such actions, so how could they 'still' be suggesting it?

I was thinking bicycle, but yes, I didn't really understand where he was going either.

Biltong wrote:

besides that, a team ranked in the top 6 cannot be rubbish, what does that say for the other teams?

I like that trick, Biltong. very good. Given that number 7 is Ireland, yep it says the rest are rubbish. We just missed the quality cut-off point! Bumber.

SecretFly wrote:

Biltong wrote:

besides that, a team ranked in the top 6 cannot be rubbish, what does that say for the other teams?

I like that trick, Biltong. very good. Given that number 7 is Ireland, yep it says the rest are rubbish. We just missed the quality cut-off point! Bumber.

sorry mate, I just picked a random number. NO malice intended.

Jimpy wrote:

mikey_philVIII wrote:Biltong, you are spot on, I was just bored. However, poor show for a moderator to think I should go throw myself under a train . If people still said that about South Africans I think you would be quite upset...

He didn't he said he 'kinda' agreed, he was actually thinking 'bus' rather than train. And I don't recall anyone suggesting that South Africans should perform such actions, so how could they 'still' be suggesting it?

No everyone hates South Africans, or used to. Didn't you know? Man, you are transparent!

I don't.

Hates: 'everyone' hates England... err no ! its South Africans now !
Lot of generalised hate where where you come from by any chance ?

gregortree wrote:Hates: 'everyone' hates England... err no ! its South Africans now !
Lot of generalised hate where where you come from by any chance ?

I am told there is a very thin line between love and hate.

Maybe Mikey is a tad confused?

Wales are the most hated if 606 is anything to go by. Lions lose, Wales' fault. Scotland try and breach IRB ruling and then attempt to overturn the decision, Wales' fault. Big hurricane in New York City, Wales' fault.

gregortree wrote:Hates: 'everyone' hates England... err no ! its South Africans now !
Lot of generalised hate where where you come from by any chance ?

The Dole Office on Planet Mars Bar

Jimpy
Biltong, yes Wales love to hate the English, their most important match every 6N. They love clamber all over any England story or thread to chuck their mud pies. If England did not exist, then they'd have to invent it to make themselvs whole again. Whahahaha And we love them for it.

gregortree wrote: Jimpy
Biltong, yes Wales love to hate the English, their most important match every 6N. They love clamber all over any England story or thread to chuck their mud pies. If England did not exist, then they'd have to invent it to make themselvs whole again. Whahahaha And we love them for it.

Nice balanced post there Gregor, you welsh by any chance

Ruby
My old Welsh mate ! I have no known Welsh blood (some Scots), but plenty of Welsh mates to banter with. Biltong refers to love / hate, so I think there a little bit of both across the Severn from time to time. Where would we be without each other ? One thing Wales would hate more than England: no England !

Ruby,
PS: you still in Cornwall supping Doom Bar and bothering the local girls ?

gregortree wrote:Ruby,
PS: you still in Cornwall supping Doom Bar and bothering the local girls ?

2/3 correct and the sun is actually shining - Finish work around 6 ish then home to relax with a chinese (meal) 1 hour with the 2 boys aged 5 and 12 and then settle down to watch the Blues get mullered by Munster - Bliss - How you doing? Have patient waiting so back in an hour or so

Ruby,
Life is good here. Gloucester are having a great season under our new (Welsh) manager, who brought Morgan with him from Scarlets. Sinbad is seeing a renaissance, not that he ever went away. Burns is lighting up the Jeff with some exciting stuff, and Billy 36 has proved to be a great signing, as have (non English) Kalamafoni and A/B Cowon.

On the Lions theme of the OP: tour selection timing may not favour all our youngsters this time around, but Glos will be producing for the England cause certainly, and Lions - well possibly. (Sinbad & Burns mentioned on other 'Lions' threads.. make what you will.. but I think Morgan will be on the plane).

Good times for the Cherries, talked to a friend who went to the Leicester game in the week and he's an avid Glucester fan and likes what he's seeing- Glad Nigels being well received there. Too early for the Lions really even though 606 is mad about it - We wont really know until after the 6 nations. I do however trust Gatland to do a good job.

Have a couple of things i'd like to add, the first of which won't be very popular so apologies in advance but i think its true;

1) if they Lions want to win, they have to have a strong english contingent. We are the only team in the home nations that isn't overawed by the 3N teams, and have a mentality that means we think we should win every game. Proved by this summers tours, where a very young inexperienced squad performed admirably in SA. Whilst the much fancied and lauded Welsh team lost the series 3-0 against a severely depleted Welsh team.

Now, before you welsh guys get angry i am not saying you are a bad team, you're not. You just have a mental block against the 3N, the difference is plain to see when you watch the 6N. Wales didn't play particularly well, yet still got the Slam. Against England you had the belief that you would always win, the way you played the clock down when you had 14 men was excellent and you never panicked and the win came. You have not achieved this yet against the big 3. The team needs the english mentality (call it arrogance if you want) that they deserve to win every game they play and we will do well.

2) Someone posted that Gatland will go for big players and smash the aussies and that eventually pressure will tell. Yeah, because that has worked so well the last 4 (5?) times Wales have played them. I remember the quote that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results, Gats should listen to this. A few years back england used Banahan to charge into the 10/12 channel of Giteau and Barnes, we got nowhere. We have beaten them the last few times by playing fast running rugby and that is what the Lions should aim to do. With no injuries they could select a backline something like this;

9. Genia
10. Cooper
11. Ioane
12. JOC
13. AAC
14. Vuna
15. Beale

That is a devastating backline that will tackle all day (maybe not cooper but he has backrow cover). We have to play a different game to what Gatland has done with Wales.

3) Selection

Care for me is the best SH in the NH at the moment and if he keeps it up should start for the Lions. Its also worth remembering that Youngs tends to have great games against the Wallabies and keeps Genia quiet, something we'll need to do to stand a chance.

Cole should get in ahead of Jones for me, Corbs v Healy is a close one as is starting hooker. I used to think that Hartley was massively overrated but someone did the stats for the 6N and Hartley came out on top of the other hookers in tackles made and completed, carries, rucks hit and was top 2 for lineouts as well. He doesn't make the flashy carries like he used to but is a very solid international hooker and good scrummager. I would however have no problems with him not starting. Are the 23 man benches going to be in place for the Lions? If so, we could easily field 2 very strong international front rows.

On the issue of bias i think morganw has summed it up for me, accidentally though. He says that most Welsh wouldn't have Warbs as starting 7 for Wales, yet he is constantly put down as Lions 7 and captain, ahead of the brilliant Robshaw who is referred to as a good premiership player. Yet Robshaw made more steals in the summer internationals than other player across all games and he didnt even play the final test!!

Someone else also mentioned that the English 2nd rows would have something to say about selection. I completely disagree about that, i think 2nd row is our weakest area and with the quality of Welsh, Scottish and Irish players there, none of ours stand out nor have a chance of getting picked.

Sorry if any of that sounded wummy, it wasnt meant to be (i know that saying something isnt a wum is often the first sentence when about to wum, but not this time, honest!) but its just a few things i've been thinking about.

RogerLewis wrote:Yes... WAS. Had no relevance in 2005. Woodward omitted all the form players.

Let's pick Guscott then, he was on fire in 1997.

Think your being a bit dramatic here. It was only two years after the world cup win, and England were on the wane but still a top 3 team. I think we all got abit too excited after winning the world cup, and Clive would have probably been labelled Mad at the time to not pick a largely English contingent.

This situation doesnt really apply now, as Wales did not win the last world cup. So Gatland cant make that mistake. In my opinion I would bet Gatland would pick a very balanced lions team from most nations.

Frosties - if that's the way you choose to see things that's your perogative - Some of it makes good sense whilst some is just the way you see it - I'm sure your'e not advocating the creative force of Tuilagi, Barritt and Farrell by the way

Frosties,

Ireland are completely over awed by New Zealand. However not in a bajillion years are we remotely in awe of Wallabies or South Africa.

We've got a strong record against both of them in recent years.

tomhughesnice wrote:

RogerLewis wrote:Yes... WAS. Had no relevance in 2005. Woodward omitted all the form players.

Let's pick Guscott then, he was on fire in 1997.

Think your being a bit dramatic here. It was only two years after the world cup win, and England were on the wane but still a top 3 team. I think we all got abit too excited after winning the world cup, and Clive would have probably been labelled Mad at the time to not pick a largely English contingent.

This situation doesnt really apply now, as Wales did not win the last world cup. So Gatland cant make that mistake. In my opinion I would bet Gatland would pick a very balanced lions team from most nations.

Tom, England were not a top 3 team in 2005 and after the 6 Nations Woodward stated that if he were picking the team "today it would be largely made up of welsh and Irish players! with 1 or 2 english and scots - He just fxxxing lied mate or did a u turn, both probably. He presided over the worse Lions tour in history - just accept it - The situation doesn't apply now 'cos gatlands team is young and devleoping and not old and past it

1) if they Lions want to win, they have to have a strong english contingent.

Currently in stitches. Good wum.

Proved by this summers tours, where a very young inexperienced squad performed admirably in SA.

Is losing a test series in SA considered performing admirably in England? The Lions will not get far with this English defeatist attitude!

I agree with Frosties. Send the English boys down there and give the rest of us the summer off. I reckon they'd still probably loose 2-1 anyways but at least our players won't get the blame and I won't feel obligated to tune in....

mikey_philVIII wrote:

1) if they Lions want to win, they have to have a strong english contingent.

Currently in stitches. Good wum.

I think he menas english, samoan, south african and new zealand contingent

I'd love to see us pick a completely mad team.

01 Joe Marler
02 Richardt Strauss
03 Michael Bent
04 Grant Gilchrist
05 Geroge Robson
06 David Denton
07 Justin Tipuric
08 Thomas Waldrom
09 Paul Marshall
10 Ian Madigan
11 Simon Zebo
12 Ashley Beck
13 Keith Earls
14 Christian Wade
15 Stuart Hogg

RubyGuby wrote:

tomhughesnice wrote:

RogerLewis wrote:Yes... WAS. Had no relevance in 2005. Woodward omitted all the form players.

Let's pick Guscott then, he was on fire in 1997.

Think your being a bit dramatic here. It was only two years after the world cup win, and England were on the wane but still a top 3 team. I think we all got abit too excited after winning the world cup, and Clive would have probably been labelled Mad at the time to not pick a largely English contingent.

This situation doesnt really apply now, as Wales did not win the last world cup. So Gatland cant make that mistake. In my opinion I would bet Gatland would pick a very balanced lions team from most nations.

Tom, England were not a top 3 team in 2005 and after the 6 Nations Woodward stated that if he were picking the team "today it would be largely made up of welsh and Irish players! with 1 or 2 english and scots - He just fxxxing lied mate or did a u turn, both probably. He presided over the worse Lions tour in history - just accept it - The situation doesn't apply now 'cos gatlands team is young and devleoping and not old and past it

England were a top team in 2005(http://www.irb.com/rankings/archive/date=2005-01-03/histranking.html) but they did slip that year to 5th when France became the top team in the NH.

I have no problem stating it was the worst lions tour in recent history. I never claimed anything different? The point i'm making is that Gatland will have learnt from the mistakes of this tour to not pick players based on reputation.

Getting back on topic I think this side would go well.

Sheridan
Rees
Jones
O'Connell (capt)
Gray
Lydiate
Denton
Warburton
Care
Sexton
Roberts
Tuilagi
North
Kearny
Bowe

Bench
Cole
Hartley/Best/Ford (don't mind)
Marler/Healy
Lawes
Ferris
Young/Phillips
Hook

tomhughesnice wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:

tomhughesnice wrote:

RogerLewis wrote:Yes... WAS. Had no relevance in 2005. Woodward omitted all the form players.

Let's pick Guscott then, he was on fire in 1997.

Think your being a bit dramatic here. It was only two years after the world cup win, and England were on the wane but still a top 3 team. I think we all got abit too excited after winning the world cup, and Clive would have probably been labelled Mad at the time to not pick a largely English contingent.

This situation doesnt really apply now, as Wales did not win the last world cup. So Gatland cant make that mistake. In my opinion I would bet Gatland would pick a very balanced lions team from most nations.

Tom, England were not a top 3 team in 2005 and after the 6 Nations Woodward stated that if he were picking the team "today it would be largely made up of welsh and Irish players! with 1 or 2 english and scots - He just fxxxing lied mate or did a u turn, both probably. He presided over the worse Lions tour in history - just accept it - The situation doesn't apply now 'cos gatlands team is young and devleoping and not old and past it

England were a top team in 2005(http://www.irb.com/rankings/archive/date=2005-01-03/histranking.html) but they did slip that year to 5th when France became the top team in the NH.

I have no problem stating it was the worst lions tour in recent history. I never claimed anything different? The point i'm making is that Gatland will have learnt from the mistakes of this tour to not pick players based on reputation.

Surely he means going by form, England were not a top team? Take into account Autumn 2004 and 2005 Six Nations results (I don't remember them all).

hugehandoff wrote:Getting back on topic I think this side would go well.

What do you mean back on topic?? This is the Anglo Welsh bickering thread!

The Rennie who is out for the season isnt THE Rennie. Dont worry (except about his current form)

hugehandoff wrote:Getting back on topic I think this side would go well.

Sheridan
Rees
Jones
O'Connell (capt)
Gray
Lydiate
Denton
Warburton
Care
Sexton
Roberts
Tuilagi
North
Kearny
Bowe

Bench
Cole
Hartley/Best/Ford (don't mind)
Marler/Healy
Lawes
Ferris
Young/Phillips
Hook

Would agree with most of that but certainly doubt the likes of Sheridan and Denton will start

is it me, or has (like I said in the other thread) no one mentioned the key criteria of 'being able to play and gel with other players in the Lions team'.

This is the second most important thing behind being an international level player.

This also goes on at international level, whereby there are some players who are 'good enough' but simply can't fit in well with the squad/management.

Wouldn't mind seeing Healy, Hartley, Cole, Lawes, Gray, Ferris, Warburton, O'Brien, Youngs, Sexton, Bowe, Davies, Tuilagi, North, Kearney for sh*ts and giggles as a neutral. Hope some of the older guys like BOD and POC play well so that they push the other blokes if they make it on tour.

Haven't been able to see much of Croft lately-any chance of him making it? Really liked how he did last time.

red_stag wrote:I'd love to see us pick a completely mad team.

01 Joe Marler
02 Richardt Strauss
03 Michael Bent
04 Grant Gilchrist
05 Geroge Robson
06 David Denton
07 Justin Tipuric
08 Thomas Waldrom
09 Paul Marshall
10 Ian Madigan
11 Simon Zebo
12 Ashley Beck
13 Keith Earls
14 Christian Wade
15 Stuart Hogg

That would be the Gareth Jenkins Lions XV with perhaps Will James at 5 instead of Robson

damage_13 wrote:is it me, or has (like I said in the other thread) no one mentioned the key criteria of 'being able to play and gel with other players in the Lions team'.

This is the second most important thing behind being an international level player.

This also goes on at international level, whereby there are some players who are 'good enough' but simply can't fit in well with the squad/management.

Its not you - my thread on Ashton a couple of weeks ago was directly aimed at his potential to disrupt unity in the Lions - He's a divisive charachter