Ireland vs South Africa pre-match talk and squad announcements.

First topic message reminder :

The much anticipated Autumn Iinternationals has arrived and South Africa will begin their three test tour against Ireland on Saturday at Landsdowne road. With a record of only one win in their last four test matches and 3 straight losses between 2004 and 2009, the Springboks would like to continue their resurgence against Ireland and emulate their two point victory of 2010.

But will they be up for an Ireland team who have been just about as disappointing as the Springboks were in 2012.

Ireland who boast wins over Scotland and Italy and a Hard earned draw over France at Stade de France earlier in the year has a disappointing return of 5 losses, 2 wins and 1 draw for the year.

South Africa has not fared much better, with 4 wins, 3 losses and 2 draws for the year.

Both teams will rue lost opportunities during the year where execution and specifically goal kicking have haunted the Springboks in Particular. Their goal kickin records stands at a miserly 55% for the year and will lose you more tests than win.

Ireland will be without their inspirational captain Brian O'Driscoll and South Africa after a long season will bewithout the services of Arguably the best Hooker in world rugby Bismarck du Plessis, the athletic Andries Bekker, talisman Schalk Burger, Pierre Spies, Heinrich Brussow, Johan Goosen, Bryan Habana (yeah I know I am complaining a bit much here), Frans Steyn and Coenie Oosthuizen.

Will this end of season tour be a bridge too far for an injury riddled South African squad or will they be able to overcome an Irish team who hasn't convinced this year.

Likely SA matchday 22.

1. Beast Mtwarira
2. Adriaan Strauss
3. Jannie du Plessis
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. Juandre Kruger (Marco Wentzel)
6. Francois Louw
7. Willem Alberts
8. Duane Vermeulen
9. Ruan Pienaar
10. Patrick Lambie
11. Francois Hougaard
12. Jean de Villiers
13. Jaco Taute
14. JP Pietersen
15. Zane Kirchner

Bench
16. Gurthro Steenkamp
17. Schalk Brits
18. Pat Cilliers
19. Flip v d Merwe
20. Marcelle Coetzee
21. Franco v d Merwe
22. Jan Vermaak
23. Morne Steyn

I'll update if someone provides me a likely Irish matchday 22.

I don't know why people have a problem with Bent getting in the side.

If he was born in England and playing for say Bath, we'd have know all about him, and not a wordwould be said when he was called up, its just because he's from the otherside of the world and we don't know a lot about him the problem is.

He's no where near the same bracket as Strauss, Bent has an Irish Grandmother.

If Dan Tuohy was still playing for Exeter Chiefs, and was called up for his first cap there would be no problem, but for some reason the papers seam to have a problem with Bent?

Touhy can't even get called up when he's at Ulster so I don't think we would have had that problem Kingshu
I have no problem with Bent being called up, had Fitzpatrick not been injured and Bent got called up then I would have had a problem but no because of where is from. Don't kid yourself however he doesn't have a wealth of experience on the other side of the world either I think he played super rugby something like 11 times.

I’d just like to congratulate Jamie Heaslip on the Irish captaincy. He might not have all of the country behind him, but he’s the right man for the job, and honestly, I hope he holds onto it for many years.

Mickado wrote:I’d just like to congratulate Jamie Heaslip on the Irish captaincy. He might not have all of the country behind him, but he’s the right man for the job, and honestly, I hope he holds onto it for many years.

Personally I would have chosen Cian Healy as captain, but I think Heaslip is a good choice. He hasn't been at his best in a green shirt over the past season, but then I doubt there are many players whose reputations have risen during Kidney's debacle. Hopefully the captaincy will help him raise his game and inject some sorely needed new ideas into the team.

To be honest, my heart sunk when it was Heaslip who walked out next to Declan Kidney and not Johnny Sexton. But I wish him well.

Mick I hope it inspires him to be at the top of his game. Looked a shoe in for the job a few seasons ago but has had his ups and downs since.

Its not just him though, the more senior guys around him like Sexton, Ryan, D'arcy, Bowe and Trimble need to step up and show real leadership too and support Heaslip.

Well I hope you’re all pleasantly surprised. He’s a born leader, if you look at the final 5 minutes of both of the last 2 HC finals, we’ve got the game won on both occasions, and he’s roaring at the players around him to give more. I loved seeing that. Leinster have never lost a game with him as captain.

I think Healy is a bit too… introverted? To be captain. Sexton would have been a good call too, but I can see why they went for Heaslip, he would have been my choice.

Mickado wrote:I’d just like to congratulate Jamie Heaslip on the Irish captaincy. He might not have all of the country behind him, but he’s the right man for the job, and honestly, I hope he holds onto it for many years.

+1

Kingshu wrote:I don't know why people have a problem with Bent getting in the side.

If he was born in England and playing for say Bath, we'd have know all about him, and not a wordwould be said when he was called up, its just because he's from the otherside of the world and we don't know a lot about him the problem is.

He's no where near the same bracket as Strauss, Bent has an Irish Grandmother.

If Dan Tuohy was still playing for Exeter Chiefs, and was called up for his first cap there would be no problem, but for some reason the papers seam to have a problem with Bent?

+1

He will have all the country behind him and some more -

Good man yerself Ruby!

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Mickado wrote:I’d just like to congratulate Jamie Heaslip on the Irish captaincy. He might not have all of the country behind him, but he’s the right man for the job, and honestly, I hope he holds onto it for many years.

Personally I would have chosen Cian Healy as captain, but I think Heaslip is a good choice. He hasn't been at his best in a green shirt over the past season, but then I doubt there are many players whose reputations have risen during Kidney's debacle. Hopefully the captaincy will help him raise his game and inject some sorely needed new ideas into the team.

Really? Love the guy and all but what makes you think he would be a good captain? There is more to being captain than leading by example. Need to have a bit of grey stuff between the ears and Cian, notoriously has very little.

I suppose the captaincy issue is each to their own. Captaincy is really about leading by example, but it's also about intangibles that we can't really measure. I would have been happy with either of those three and I didn't really see any other contenders. I think that in itself demonstrates a real problem of leadership at national level. Obviously POC, Best and BOD are major losses in that respect, but we really need other players to start stepping up to the mark.

Of all the injuries POC, BOD, Ferris and Best out is quite remarkable, along with Sexton they are all your key players IMO.

Anyway, aside from the bellyaching, which is too easy to do.

Best of luck to all the lads, I hope Zebo rips the sh’ite out of them, I hope McCarthy instigates a 99 call inside 5 minutes and I hope Ian Henderson comes on and scores the winner in the corner with half the western cape hanging off his back.

COME ON IRELAND TA FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK!

Mickado wrote:Anyway, aside from the bellyaching, which is too easy to do.

Best of luck to all the lads, I hope Zebo rips the sh’ite out of them, I hope McCarthy instigates a 99 call inside 5 minutes and I hope Ian Henderson comes on and scores the winner in the corner with half the western cape hanging off his back.

COME ON IRELAND TA FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK!

Avvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv Ittttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt

Liam Toland is a fan of McCarthy. This was written a few weeks ago.

RUGBY ANALYST: Connacht’s Mike McCarthy is the stand-out secondrow with his athleticism and impact in all aspects of the game

......

Not content with that he continued to contribute outside of the scrum. Where does that leave our secondrows and our ambition for their skill set? Is their job complete if they hit a million rucks?

Of the four secondrows selected for the autumn internationals I suggest you rewatch the Connacht-Harlequins match because Mike McCarthy was outstanding; firstly as a secondrow and then as a rugby player. What made him outstanding? According to the statistics, Ulster’s Dan Touhy made three tackles against Glasgow last Friday night, O’Connell made one with O’Callaghan making five; nine in total – McCarthy made 13. O’Callaghan made no clean break, neither did O’Connell, who ran with the ball for five metres with Touhy adding four metres. McCarthy beat two defenders making a clean break and totalled 29 metres carried. Only O’Connell joined him on the lineout steals, beating him by two.

Having been to the matches over the previous games McCarthy stands head and shoulders over the other three with his athleticism and impact in all aspects of the game; genuinely contesting the ball in the air and on the ground, accelerating in contact, breaking tackles and off-loading to better-placed support runners, not to mention the quality of his offensive tackles. His performance was further enhanced in that he was playing on a losing Connacht team.

This autumn series I hope our secondrows visualise the impossible and make it possible, with our props given space to simply prop.

The most disappointing thing about the squad is theres no Madigan, Jackson, Keatley, Henshaw, McSharry, Griffin, Gilroy etc.

Oh I think we'll marmalise them... but that's only an opinion.

Liam Toland is another gutless, oirsekissing one-eyed troll. In fact if I see him on Saturday I'm going to flush his head down the toilet at the Aviva.

Off course McCarthy's going to make more tackles whilst playing at Connacht, they generally have less ball.

Head and shoulders over the others in terms of athleticism? Hmm funny he never champions him as a starter when O'Connell is fit?

Toland is another on the IRFUs payroll.

rodders wrote:Liam Toland is another gutless, oirsekissing one-eyed troll. In fact if I see him on Saturday I'm going to flush his head down the toilet at the Aviva.

Off course McCarthy's going to make more tackles whilst playing at Connacht, they generally have less ball.

Head and shoulders over the others in terms of athleticism? Hmm funny he never champions him as a starter when O'Connell is fit?

Toland is another on the IRFUs payroll.

I noted you were interviewed recently Rodders...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOjXUCM9K04

Can he play full back?

I dont actually have an issue with Kilcoyne over Court. I dont think he is a better player but i think we need to look longer term........

genuinely would loe to see how he can justify ROG over Jackson using the same logic.

Alastair always has a few good points to make actually...if the Southern media would let him finish a bloody sentence without interrupting, that is!

rodders if you flush tolands head down the toilet i will rip gerry thornleys curly eco warrior tramps hair clean off and throw him from the top tier

next up peter o'reilly and keith wood.

all yes-men must perish

Standulstermen wrote:I dont actually have an issue with Kilcoyne over Court. I dont think he is a better player but i think we need to look longer term........

genuinely would loe to see how he can justify ROG over Jackson using the same logic.

This is the whole problem with Kidney,he's trying to do the right thing but going about it arseways .He's promoting youth by bringing on Kilcoyne but Jackson is playing much better than RoG where Kilcoyne is maybe at the same level as Court (I haven't seen enough to judge for sure but I do know Kilcoyne had a couple of tough outings earlier in the season).

Jackson has earned his place but doesn't get it where Kilcoyne is parachuted in without really having done the groundwork.Zebo at fullback ahead of 4 guys who have been playing there this season is another example of this kind of thing.

I think zebo actually deserves a start but only in a rejigged backline with earls or bowe at 15 and him on the wing. i feel he could become a bit of a scapegoat for some fans if things dont go well. good luck to him though.

DOD wrote:
I noted you were interviewed recently Rodders...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOjXUCM9K04

I actually like McCarthy but Toland making out hes the some kind of freak super athlete moulded from the genes of Willie John McBride, Martin Johnson, John Eales, Brad Thorn, Usian Bolt and Hulk Hogan and can leap like a salmon and sprint like a gazell doesn't do anything for McCarthy or Tolands credibility.

Gees never heard the likes of it.... hes a decent journey man not Courtney Lawes....

Standulstermen wrote:I think zebo actually deserves a start but only in a rejigged backline with earls or bowe at 15 and him on the wing. i feel he could become a bit of a scapegoat for some fans if things dont go well. good luck to him though.

Which fans would those be Stand I wonder......

Traveller McCarthy? Ease up guys...no need for name calling.

..the fans that are afraid to blame Declan.

Standulstermen wrote:I think zebo actually deserves a start but only in a rejigged backline with earls or bowe at 15 and him on the wing. i feel he could become a bit of a scapegoat for some fans if things dont go well. good luck to him though.

Oh yeah I'd have him on the left wing as a starter definitely.I just don't think it does him any favours to start him in a position he's never played at any serious level.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:I think zebo actually deserves a start but only in a rejigged backline with earls or bowe at 15 and him on the wing. i feel he could become a bit of a scapegoat for some fans if things dont go well. good luck to him though.

Oh yeah I'd have him on the left wing as a starter definitely.I just don't think it does him any favours to start him in a position he's never played at any serious level.

i would agree with that. he has shown a much more rounded skillset this season but lets not overburden him. im not sure how he can be expected to be positionally adept at 15. Give him the wing spot and let him grow into international rugby

Theres 3 wingers in the back 3 and Zebo is mosted suited to fullback. Don't see an issue with it.

The alternative was to bring Hurley in, who is a level (or more) below the 3 players selected.

rodders wrote:Theres 3 wingers in the back 3 and Zebo is mosted suited to fullback. Don't see an issue with it.

The alternative was to bring Hurley in, who is a level (or more) below the 3 players selected.

you forgot the outhalf who has played 3/4 games at FB, the FB who has just come back from injury and is likely to fall apart at the first tackle and a youngfella who has shown some form on occassion. Its only a flamin international match FFS. Playing against SA is exactly the same as playing against Zebras or Cardiff Junior B team (which is about their level at the moment).

Well jeebus if Toland is believed then McCarthy could probably have filled in at fullback.

rodders wrote:Theres 3 wingers in the back 3 and Zebo is mosted suited to fullback. Don't see an issue with it.

The alternative was to bring Hurley in, who is a level (or more) below the 3 players selected.

There are 4 players with more experience than Zebo at 15,I've played in the back 3 and 15 is a completely different position to wing.Now Zebo obviously has 100 times more talent and ability to adapt to the position than I ever did but the flyhalf kicking against him also the talent to punish the slightest positional error and that was an area Zebo struggled with at wing last year.In fairness to him he worked on it and has improved hugely but how can he be expected to adapt immediately to fullback.

My objection to the decision is nothing against Zebo,it's more to do with Kidneys inconsistent selection policy where some players are played no matter what while others have to move mountains to get a look in.

where was this interview rodders?

Toland is good for comic value. If Mc Carthy does not score a hat trick of trys he can do one

DOD wrote:Playing against SA is exactly the same as playing against Zebras or Cardiff Junior B team (which is about their level at the moment).

rodders wrote:Well jeebus if Toland is believed then McCarthy could probably have filled in at fullback.

Isnt McCarthy playing at Outhalf?

Anyhow, give or take a couple of the forward positions and the replacements Kidney has picked players on form and given the injuries it would not be a great time to take completely untried players in certain positions especially where the level they have been playing is not close to the standard expected at the weekend. The back three for example has at least a certain level of experience overall and has three players (even Trimble) that are proven this year especially in attack.

Biltong wrote:

DOD wrote:Playing against SA is exactly the same as playing against Zebras or Cardiff Junior B team (which is about their level at the moment).

Its called sarcasm...

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:I dont actually have an issue with Kilcoyne over Court. I dont think he is a better player but i think we need to look longer term........

genuinely would loe to see how he can justify ROG over Jackson using the same logic.

This is the whole problem with Kidney,he's trying to do the right thing but going about it arseways .He's promoting youth by bringing on Kilcoyne but Jackson is playing much better than RoG where Kilcoyne is maybe at the same level as Court (I haven't seen enough to judge for sure but I do know Kilcoyne had a couple of tough outings earlier in the season).

Jackson has earned his place but doesn't get it where Kilcoyne is parachuted in without really having done the groundwork.Zebo at fullback ahead of 4 guys who have been playing there this season is another example of this kind of thing.

It's a really unfortunate coincidence that the young players he has parachuted in are predominantly from Munster... Kilcoyne, Murray, Zebo. They didn't have to work too hard to get called up! Pretty much straight into the Ireland 23 as soon as they made the Munster 23. I guess you have Iain Henderson as the counterweight to that. I feel it's a bit too soon for him too, but unlike Kilcoyne I think he won't cost the team if he comes on.

I don't have a problem with the rest of the selection really. I would view Zebo to 15 as a big gamble, but we need to be bold and make gambles sometimes. If it pays off it could add some much needed edge to our counter-attacking game. I think Zebo has thoroughly earned his spot this year after being outshone by Gilroy in the second half of last season.

Notch wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:I dont actually have an issue with Kilcoyne over Court. I dont think he is a better player but i think we need to look longer term........

genuinely would loe to see how he can justify ROG over Jackson using the same logic.

This is the whole problem with Kidney,he's trying to do the right thing but going about it arseways .He's promoting youth by bringing on Kilcoyne but Jackson is playing much better than RoG where Kilcoyne is maybe at the same level as Court (I haven't seen enough to judge for sure but I do know Kilcoyne had a couple of tough outings earlier in the season).

Jackson has earned his place but doesn't get it where Kilcoyne is parachuted in without really having done the groundwork.Zebo at fullback ahead of 4 guys who have been playing there this season is another example of this kind of thing.

It's a really unfortunate coincidence that the young players he has parachuted in are predominantly from Munster... Kilcoyne, Murray, Zebo. They didn't have to work too hard to get called up! Pretty much straight into the Ireland 23 as soon as they made the Munster 23. I guess you have Iain Henderson as the counterweight to that. I feel it's a bit too soon for him too, but unlike Kilcoyne I think he won't cost the team if he comes on.

Murray and Zebo (parachuted?)....oh dear notch (sad violin emoticon).

Notch wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:I dont actually have an issue with Kilcoyne over Court. I dont think he is a better player but i think we need to look longer term........

genuinely would loe to see how he can justify ROG over Jackson using the same logic.

This is the whole problem with Kidney,he's trying to do the right thing but going about it arseways .He's promoting youth by bringing on Kilcoyne but Jackson is playing much better than RoG where Kilcoyne is maybe at the same level as Court (I haven't seen enough to judge for sure but I do know Kilcoyne had a couple of tough outings earlier in the season).

Jackson has earned his place but doesn't get it where Kilcoyne is parachuted in without really having done the groundwork.Zebo at fullback ahead of 4 guys who have been playing there this season is another example of this kind of thing.

It's a really unfortunate coincidence that the young players he has parachuted in are predominantly from Munster... Kilcoyne, Murray, Zebo. They didn't have to work too hard to get called up! Pretty much straight into the Ireland 23 as soon as they made the Munster 23. I guess you have Iain Henderson as the counterweight to that. I feel it's a bit too soon for him too, but unlike Kilcoyne I think he won't cost the team if he comes on.

I don't have a problem with the rest of the selection really. I would view Zebo to 15 as a big gamble, but we need to be bold and make gambles sometimes. If it pays off it could add some much needed edge to our counter-attacking game. I think Zebo has thoroughly earned his spot this year after being outshone by Gilroy in the second half of last season.

You will get a job at the UN yet

dublin_dave wrote:where was this interview rodders?

Toland is good for comic value. If Mc Carthy does not score a hat trick of trys he can do one

Profitus posted the excerpt above Dave...not sure of the source but it made me laugh...

Highest try scorers in last season's 6 Nations
Just behind Australia's recent draw, the next closest side to beating All Blacks since the summer (in an eintire SH championship no side got closer)
...and in that time, in all that time - most observers agree that we were a disastrous looking side. No shape, make or confidence. Hell, even Sin é's great analytical hero, Wayne Smith, couldn't work it out...couldn't understand why players were acting out of character.

That's the bloody potential this Irish side has! Wales can only do what Ireland does by playing slick, wise and offensively aggressive rugby. Wales can only do what they do by looking sexy. Ireland, on the other hand, can run around with their flies open, with their farmer boots on after the milking; they can fumble and fuddle their way through embarrassing 80 minute games and still score tries and still miraculously come closer to winning against top sides than their general form would ever remotely suggest.

So........ the players ARE there - let's quit the bumbling shyt tactics and subsequent comical handling errors; let's maximise attack and go easy on the kick away defending. That's all I ask. Don't give the advantage constantly back to good sides by needlessly kicking possession back at them. Make them work for it...and punish them when they do.

Lads, I think some of you are being harsh on McCarthy. The article by Toland was selective but he made some good points in it.

SecretFly wrote:Highest try scorers in last season's 6 Nations
Just behind Australia's recent draw, the next closest side to beating All Blacks since the summer (in an eintire SH championship no side got closer)
...and in that time, in all that time - most observers agree that we were a disastrous looking side. No shape, make or confidence. Hell, even Sin é's great analytical hero, Wayne Smith, couldn't work it out...couldn't understand why players were acting out of character.

That's the bloody potential this Irish side has! Wales can only do what Ireland does by playing slick, wise and offensively aggressive rugby. Wales can only do what they do by looking sexy. Ireland, on the other hand, can run around with their flies open, with their farmer boots on after the milking; they can fumble and fuddle their way through embarrassing 80 minute games and still score tries and still miraculously come closer to winning against top sides than their general form would ever remotely suggest.

So........ the players ARE there - let's quit the bumbling shyt tactics and subsequent comical handling errors; let's maximise attack and go easy on the kick away defending. That's all I ask. Don't give the advantage constantly back to good sides by needlessly kicking possession back at them. Make them work for it...and punish them when they do.

+1

We have some quality players who play a good brand of rugby for their provinces. They should be looking to play quick, high tempo rugby and be allowed to take risks.

With another ageing Ireland team being fielded on Saturday with the likes of O'Gara, O'Callaghan and Darcy who between them must have more caps than the entire starting SA XV, Kidney is not planning to run the legs off SA.

SecretFly wrote:Highest try scorers in last season's 6 Nations
Just behind Australia's recent draw, the next closest side to beating All Blacks since the summer (in an eintire SH championship no side got closer)
...and in that time, in all that time - most observers agree that we were a disastrous looking side. No shape, make or confidence. Hell, even Sin é's great analytical hero, Wayne Smith, couldn't work it out...couldn't understand why players were acting out of character.

That's the bloody potential this Irish side has! Wales can only do what Ireland does by playing slick, wise and offensively aggressive rugby. Wales can only do what they do by looking sexy. Ireland, on the other hand, can run around with their flies open, with their farmer boots on after the milking; they can fumble and fuddle their way through embarrassing 80 minute games and still score tries and still miraculously come closer to winning against top sides than their general form would ever remotely suggest.

So........ the players ARE there - let's quit the bumbling shyt tactics and subsequent comical handling errors; let's maximise attack and go easy on the kick away defending. That's all I ask. Don't give the advantage constantly back to good sides by needlessly kicking possession back at them. Make them work for it...and punish them when they do.

The obvious difference between wales and ireland players is their size. In almost every position wales have bigger men. What Ireland need more than anything is a few shane horgans to give their backiline some physicality. The biggest irish back is probably sexton or bowe who would both be dwarfed by roberts, north and cuthbert.

The irish forwards would be bigger than the welsh ones, I think. Also, the Australians didn't seem too bothered about playing a small back line against Wales. It didn't really cause them many problems.

I do agree though Ireland might do well having a line breaker in the backs. Trimble is good for this though.

Where do Ireland get this idea that they almost beat the All Blacks? They almost drew with them in between two obliterations. Anyway, the team looks a bit rag-tag. SA by 10. And good luck.