Ireland vs South Africa pre-match talk and squad announcements.

First topic message reminder :

The much anticipated Autumn Iinternationals has arrived and South Africa will begin their three test tour against Ireland on Saturday at Landsdowne road. With a record of only one win in their last four test matches and 3 straight losses between 2004 and 2009, the Springboks would like to continue their resurgence against Ireland and emulate their two point victory of 2010.

But will they be up for an Ireland team who have been just about as disappointing as the Springboks were in 2012.

Ireland who boast wins over Scotland and Italy and a Hard earned draw over France at Stade de France earlier in the year has a disappointing return of 5 losses, 2 wins and 1 draw for the year.

South Africa has not fared much better, with 4 wins, 3 losses and 2 draws for the year.

Both teams will rue lost opportunities during the year where execution and specifically goal kicking have haunted the Springboks in Particular. Their goal kickin records stands at a miserly 55% for the year and will lose you more tests than win.

Ireland will be without their inspirational captain Brian O'Driscoll and South Africa after a long season will bewithout the services of Arguably the best Hooker in world rugby Bismarck du Plessis, the athletic Andries Bekker, talisman Schalk Burger, Pierre Spies, Heinrich Brussow, Johan Goosen, Bryan Habana (yeah I know I am complaining a bit much here), Frans Steyn and Coenie Oosthuizen.

Will this end of season tour be a bridge too far for an injury riddled South African squad or will they be able to overcome an Irish team who hasn't convinced this year.

Likely SA matchday 22.

1. Beast Mtwarira
2. Adriaan Strauss
3. Jannie du Plessis
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. Juandre Kruger (Marco Wentzel)
6. Francois Louw
7. Willem Alberts
8. Duane Vermeulen
9. Ruan Pienaar
10. Patrick Lambie
11. Francois Hougaard
12. Jean de Villiers
13. Jaco Taute
14. JP Pietersen
15. Zane Kirchner

Bench
16. Gurthro Steenkamp
17. Schalk Brits
18. Pat Cilliers
19. Flip v d Merwe
20. Marcelle Coetzee
21. Franco v d Merwe
22. Jan Vermaak
23. Morne Steyn

I'll update if someone provides me a likely Irish matchday 22.

Notch wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Donnacha Ryan is dropped,that's a surprise but he has been stuck playing 6 a lot for Munster that must have cost him.

Eh? He's in the team.

Lol what the hell was I seeing when I read that teamsheet.I have no clue

rodders wrote:Reddan hasn't been playing particularly well so individually can't feel hard done by.

I actually think Murray has been playing ok at Munster and is good for his place. The only other guy really putting their hand up is Marshall.

My main concern is that the Heaslip-Murray- Sexton unit which is absolutely fundimental to playing some decent rugby has yet to function at international level.

You have a 9 who has a tendancy to slow things down and weigh up his options before getting the ball away (not always a bad thing) and a 10 who likes to play with his head up, run onto quick ball and play off the cuff. The two don't mix well and Murray needs to understand that his primary role is not to play like an auxilary flanker like he does at Munster but to get quick ball into the hands of his first reciever if there is an opportunity move the ball. The problem is though I think Kidney believes the role of a scrumhalf is to be an auxilary flanker.

Outside that you have a smallish 12 and 13 who both struggle to break the gainline against a set defence. That 9-13 axis has trouble written all over it.

Murray is the key because if he can get quick ball out to Sexton then he and Earls can hurt the boks with their pace and create opportunities for a very dangerous looking back 3. If he dithers at the breakdown then our midfield and backrow will be in for a tough day.

COMPLETELY AGREE

9 is crucial. It is the artery with which the backs live off. If the 9 is not good or not playing well it can seriously affect 5 other guys in the team that is a third of the team and that is just off scrum/lineout. Such a crucial position the basics need to be there.

the ref gives you five seconds when the ball is made available, if you want to attack at pace your 9 should be hearing the words use it very rarely.
The fact that the ref calls 'use it' to murray and many others, isn't a good thing it is a sign that the ball needed to be gone already

Submachine wrote:Still haven't seen squad but if McCarthy is in there it is well merited. He has been imense for Connacht over the last 3 seasons and never seems to have a bad game. Court being dropped is very harsh. I think he is probably the best scrumaging LH in the country and very mobile to boot. Marshall will get his oportunity at 9 and I expect him to stay there for quite a while.

Nah you're wrong about that. Once he was released last week we knew he was nowhere near the squad.

I get the logic for McCarthy- I don't necessarily agree, but he's there for a specific purpose and it makes sense. But I just can't see the logic for Kilcoyne.

Most of the team is as I expected. The selection of Zebo at full back is an absolute shambles. Whatever happened to round pegs in round holes. If you don't play there for your province you shouldn't play there for your country. Zebo is inexperienced on the wing let alone a position he never plays. South Africa are going to boot the ball down his throat all day long.

Heaven knows what Dan Tuohy has done to Declan Kidney. He has been playing very well for Ulster, the best side in the Rabo so far. To be overtaken by two players who do not seem to be playing any better than him is absolutely bizarre. I don't really get what Notch is saying re: the lineout. McCartney has never struck me as a great lineout operator.

I do not get the selection of Kilcoyne. Yes we need to give these sorts of players international experience, but thats what Fiji is for. Bizarre selection.

Why no Dan Tuohy?
Why no Tom Court?
Why ROG?

Eek

Geez, you guys are lucky, I almost thought you will have a frenchman Skrela and a South African in there as well. (Well JP Pietersen thought so)

Jesus no Touhy that is bizarre!

I actually don't mind Mcarthy but to bring him in at Touhys expense is nonsensical..... unless its at Ulsters request?....

Other than that, and Court not making the squad, I'm not unhappy at that side.

Delighted for the in form Henry and Trimble but most of all Iain Henderson who hopefully will get his first cap.

Hopefully the men inside will get the ball to that back 3.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Why no Dan Tuohy?
Why no Tom Court?
Why ROG?

Eek

1. Mccarthy is in form and DOC is playing better
2. Useless
3. Why not :-)

Kilcoyne has come on a lot this season. He was marching Dulcancon backwards in the HEC. He is also a good ball carrier with a high workrate. Hes more mobile than Court which is why he got the nod IMO. I wouldn't say Court is dropped rather Kilcoyne has come through.

Donnacha Ryan has had a very quiet start to the season for his standards. Good to see McCarthy there but I'd have Tuohy on the bench instead of DOC.

Zebo is at fullback because he can kick the ball far and catch the ball. I would prefer Earls or even Gillroy there with Cave at 13. Earls is a good 13 IMO but a better back 3 player.

Murray has to have a good game or be dropped. He needs to step up now and show that he deserves his place. Kidney prefers a physical 9 which is why Murray got the nod.

Big day for Henderson. I'm glad to see Kidney selecting him but then you have ROG and DOC on the bench.

DOD wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Why no Dan Tuohy?
Why no Tom Court?
Why ROG?

Eek

1. Mccarthy is in form and DOC is playing better
2. Useless
3. Why not :-)

1. Tuohy is in great form as well running the Ulster (undefeated side) lineout and beign an enforcer. He is also youthful and showed well during the summer against the Blacks.

2. Better than Kilcoyne who only has a handful of starts.

3. Because he is not a very good rugby player anymore

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

DOD wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Why no Dan Tuohy?
Why no Tom Court?
Why ROG?

Eek

1. Mccarthy is in form and DOC is playing better
2. Useless
3. Why not :-)

1. Tuohy is in great form as well running the Ulster (undefeated side) lineout and beign an enforcer. He is also youthful and showed well during the summer against the Blacks.

2. Better than Kilcoyne who only has a handful of starts.

3. Because he is not a very good rugby player anymore

1. I repeat...McCarthy is the form lock and DOC is unlucky not to be picked ahead of Ryan as he is the other form Lock.
2. Who says he is better? Kilcoyne looks like the real deal so far this year and carries the ball better.
3. Says yer man

6 Leinstermen
5 Munstermen
3 Ulstermen
1 Connacht.. er.. man

Seems logical enough ....

DOD wrote:
1. I repeat...McCarthy is the form lock and DOC is unlucky not to be picked ahead of Ryan as he is the other form Lock.

Yer auld bollix DOD Touhy and Stevenson are the form locks...yer two boys there wouldn't get a game for the Ulster ravens .

A game of two halves...with the second half looking more promising than the first.

Court has been very impressive this season, he is very mobile and has great handling skills for a prop. His scrummaging has been very impressive.


I suppose you could argue we can't have it both ways i.e. can't accuse of kidney of being conservative and then ridicule him for blooding a new prop. But this isn't really the match for that, I would rather have the best players available on the team.

McCarthy for Touhy is rather moronic, Touhy is the better player all round and is on a richer vein of form. We could have done with touhys dynamic ball carrying seeing as we are missing ferris and SOB.

With Henry in that back row I think we could see heaslip having to do less of the grunt work and doing more of the showy dynamic stuff.

Good point Dick... I was so concerned at the lack of Ulstermen I seem to have missed the fact that we've no ball carriers apart form Healy.

Ah well, sure you can't have everything.

Surely (keeping the same players) it would make more sense to go with Earls at fullback, Bowe in the centre and Zebo on the wing?

McCarthy is playing way better than Tuohy from what I have seen..not so sure about dynamic ball carrying from him. Also Kilcoyne looks a better prospect than Court is/ever was.

POM is a good ball carrier Rodders and Heaslip is as well when he isnt concerned with his hair getting mussed up as is Ryan, Mccarthy Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

On a side note its good to see Henderson involved...definitely one for the future...(otherwise I would be attacked for my bias against ulster....brrr, whistle).

Anyhow....shock horror...the headline is - except for some possible marginal decisions Irish coach picks best team available to him.....

let the moaning begin....

oh hang on it has.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Surely (keeping the same players) it would make more sense to go with Earls at fullback, Bowe in the centre and Zebo on the wing?

bowe hasnt played muchj at 13 but id really like to see him there to be honest

Kidney doesn't make sense scarlet how dare you suggest we try and win the game with the best players on form and not try and make it harder for ourselves

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Surely (keeping the same players) it would make more sense to go with Earls at fullback, Bowe in the centre and Zebo on the wing?

Yes play Earls at FB where he hasnt played for quite some time but has played OC whereas Zebo has played is used to the FB role....

Clearly doesnt make sense to some...Also lets Play Tommy completely out of position....

You guys are too funny

try eenie meenie?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Surely (keeping the same players) it would make more sense to go with Earls at fullback, Bowe in the centre and Zebo on the wing?

I'd have though the right decision at fullback would be to pick one of the 4 players available who have played there this season Madigan,Jones,Henshaw or Hurley,there's no excuse for picking Zebo there the guy has never played he shold be on the wing where he's flying this season.Unfortunately Ireland are coached by a moron.

Fly are you giving away Irish camp secrets again Deccie will not be happy

DOD wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Surely (keeping the same players) it would make more sense to go with Earls at fullback, Bowe in the centre and Zebo on the wing?

Yes play Earls at FB where he hasnt played for quite some time but has played OC whereas Zebo has played is used to the FB role....

Clearly doesnt make sense to some...Also lets Play Tommy completely out of position....

You guys are too funny

Bowe did a good job in the centre when the Ospreys played him there. Also I thought Earls used to shuffle around between the wing, centre and fullback pretty well, but I have not seen too much of Zebo at fullback, but on the wing he seems electric. So that was my reasoning behind the thought.

neilthom7 wrote:Fly are you giving away Irish camp secrets again Deccie will not be happy

Sorry, neil... won't happen again, promise. Gerry Thornley told me that's what happens - the bloody double agent that he is!

How is Zebo used to the fullback role DOD? Has he ever played a professional game of rugby in that position? I'm still trying to get my head around the Kilcoyne selection. It's just been that easy for him to walk in ahead of a more experienced, better player in better form. It just doesn't smell right is all.

We're not a big nation, we can't afford to have backroom politics influence selections. Kidney highlights the set piece as a South African strength and then drops our best scrummaging loosehead. Makes no sense. You just want to see guys picked on merit.

Do you think they were scared of the headlines if we finished with an Aussie-Saffer-Kiwi front row? I just hope that Kilcoyne does alright when he comes on. He's been thrown into a level of rugby he's given no indication of being ready for for reasons which don't seem to have much to do with form or experience.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

DOD wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Surely (keeping the same players) it would make more sense to go with Earls at fullback, Bowe in the centre and Zebo on the wing?

Yes play Earls at FB where he hasnt played for quite some time but has played OC whereas Zebo has played is used to the FB role....

Clearly doesnt make sense to some...Also lets Play Tommy completely out of position....

You guys are too funny

Bowe did a good job in the centre when the Ospreys played him there. Also I thought Earls used to shuffle around between the wing, centre and fullback pretty well, but I have not seen too much of Zebo at fullback, but on the wing he seems electric. So that was my reasoning behind the thought.

Sorry Scarlet it is a good question however the anti Kidney brigade on here would complain if he did what you suggested anyway. However in terms of the suggestions.

1. Earls can shuffle around but is probably our best option at OC after BOD and this is his best position.
2. Bowe has played a few times for the O's at OC but hasnt played a lot of first class games there and is not considered for that position with Ulster. So it wouldnt make much sense to play him at OC in an international match. He is much more of a threat at wing.
3. Zebo is good in the air (not as good as Kearney) and has a fairly hefty left boot. The back three will all interchange as is the case in the current game. He is very good at running the ball back and has an eye for making a break (i,e try he scored against Racing).

Overall I would say Kidney has got it just about right.

Deccie: Ehhhhmmm who we playing on Saturday
Players: South Africa Deccie
Deccie: Do they kick it much
Players: A fair bit alright Deccie
Deccie: Ehhhhhhhmm Fel.. Rob.. Gav.. Simon, yes Simon? Fancy a go at full back?

I don't have a major problem with Zebo at fullback, its a reckless gamble but if it works its genius. And I understand the reasons why it's being taken. He WILL be slaughtered if it doesn't pay off. If we lose and Zebo has a poor game it could finish Kidney off.

Notch wrote:How is Zebo used to the fullback role DOD? Has he ever played a professional game of rugby in that position? I'm still trying to get my head around the Kilcoyne selection. It's just been that easy for him to walk in ahead of a more experienced, better player in better form. It just doesn't smell right is all.

We're not a big nation, we can't afford to have backroom politics influence selections. Kidney highlights the set piece as a South African strength and then drops our best scrummaging loosehead. Makes no sense. You just want to see guys picked on merit.

Do you think they were scared of the headlines if we finished with an Aussie-Saffer-Kiwi front row? I just hope that Kilcoyne does alright when he comes on. He's been thrown into a level of rugby he's given no indication of being ready for for reasons which don't seem to have much to do with form or experience.

Court is our best loosehead? I would say Healy is and currently Kilcoyne looks better.

Scrummaging loose head. By far.

Well congrats to Heaslip,one of the next generation of leaders in the team after BoD and PoC bow out.

Our best scrummaging loosehead. As in, our best loosehead at scrummaging. As in, better in the scrum than the other two.

Kilcoyne and Healy are better around the park but whether a prop should be picked begins and ends in the scrum. Only once he's proven he can scrum do his bonus attributes come into consideration. Healy is a better rounded player than Court, no issue with that at all. Healy can do his bit in the scrums, but Kilcoyne has proven nothing in that area. He was a real handicap to a Munster side which lost at Ravenhill. He was targeted and exploited, yet I admired their willingness to throw him in at the deep end and let him learn on the job. At Provincial Level. This is no kindergarten! This is a test match we need/want to win. You've got a guy who in undisputedly better in the scrums, an area the coach highlights himself as a strength of the visitors, and you leave him out... why?

Its frustrating because Kilcoyne is at a similar stage as Paddy McAllister last season (hes now injured). Young player, very good around the field, needs to serve an apprenticeship in the scrums and learn his trade but will be a future international. No-one is clamoring for him to be picked because he's not ready but we appreciate a few years down the line he can be an option.

Kilcoyne is the same, except instead of that he's just waved straight into the national team and no-one is even asking questions? This selection is suspicious to me. There's no compelling rugby reason for him to be picked.

right lets agree kidney has got the selection relatively correct (could argue the bench calls,mc carthy and position of backs).

NOW DECCIE

tactics and game plan. Can you deliver us a performance and god willing a win without boring the absolute pants out of us and giving us a creak in our respective necks from watching endless garryowens and boxkicks.

Sorry DOD while Zebo isn't a bad decision at fullback, Court is in way better form as is Touhy you sound a lot like you haven't actually seen Court play for Ulster and are just relying on what some media say and what you have seen from him for Ireland playing on the wrong side of the scrum. As for Kidney I don't think he is bias I just think he has got stale in the job, it happens to the best coaches and it's up to Irish management to see this get rid of him and move us forward.

As a neutral Munsterman here, surely Healy is a better all rounder than Court...........and probably a better scrummager as well.................

It's Kilcoyne that we think Court should be ahead of John not Healy

It's the perfect game to introduce Kilcoyne. He'll no doubt be partnered with Bent for most of his stint and if the scrum's bad no one can pin the blame on one or t'other.
Pleased to see Strauss start. After Best he is the next most accomplished hooker in Ireland. He deserves respect for the commitment he's shown to Ireland going through the qualifying process compared to the inordinate haste with which the IRFU have copper fastened Bent into the side. What is it with Irish Tightheads with names like Buckley and Bent?
McCarthy obviously gets in as the token Connacht man, as neither his stats nor his team's form could be factors.
Not too worried about Ireland's backrow either as they have plenty of physical presence, 90-minute engines and leadership nous.
No point in discussing behind the scrum as they will all be told to kick the ball away, for 'Skrela' to chase. An octogenarian once told me that such tactics used to work in Kidney's sepia toned formative years, but then again he also thought Éamon de Valera was still Taoiseach.
Obviously young guys like Madigan, Keatley and Jackson have never been exposed to such tactics (watching Ireland excepted), so Kidney will have to continue his programme of moulding Johnny the Starter into Ronan the Finisher for the forseeable. Unless the Academies start producing 10's with the requisite skillset aka 'the Garryowen portfolio', it looks as though ROG could yet reach the milestone of 200 caps.

The Great Aukster wrote:It's the perfect game to introduce Kilcoyne. He'll no doubt be partnered with Bent for most of his stint and if the scrum's bad no one can pin the blame on one or t'other.
Pleased to see Strauss start. After Best he is the next most accomplished hooker in Ireland. He deserves respect for the commitment he's shown to Ireland going through the qualifying process compared to the inordinate haste with which the IRFU have copper fastened Bent into the side. What is it with Irish Tightheads with names like Buckley and Bent?
McCarthy obviously gets in as the token Connacht man, as neither his stats nor his team's form could be factors.
Not too worried about Ireland's backrow either as they have plenty of physical presence, 90-minute engines and leadership nous.
No point in discussing behind the scrum as they will all be told to kick the ball away, for 'Skrela' to chase. An octogenarian once told me that such tactics used to work in Kidney's sepia toned formative years, but then again he also thought Éamon de Valera was still Taoiseach.
Obviously young guys like Madigan, Keatley and Jackson have never been exposed to such tactics (watching Ireland excepted), so Kidney will have to continue his programme of moulding Johnny the Starter into Ronan the Finisher for the forseeable. Unless the Academies start producing 10's with the requisite skillset aka 'the Garryowen portfolio', it looks as though ROG could yet reach the milestone of 200 caps.

A perfectly poised post, that says just about everything this thread requires - and manages it in 14 very smart lines.

So the contentious issues are

1. McCarthy ahead of Tuohy/O'Callaghan ahead of Tuohy - one of the few players to come away from the NZ tour with his reputation enhanced/intact and in fine form with the best team in the league at the moment and he gets dropped... Hmmm.

2. Zebo at FB ahead of Jones/Hurley/Henshaw/Anyone who has played there before... - This one I don't think is as massive a **** up as some. Yes he's inexperienced, but he has the skill set to pull it off, big left boot, good under the high ball. Yes, Madigan or Jones would probably have been smarter but who ever said Deccie was smart...

3. Kilcoyne ahead of Court - So instead of having a loosehead who you know will bring stability off the bench and has been part of a front row at Ulster that has munched any team it's played, you give the first cap to an unproven youngster against one of the best scrummaging teams in the world.... Hmmm.

4. ROG in the squad - Yes we know, he's the eternal "finish out a game" man, but firstly he's only just back from injury, secondly he hasn't had a good game in about a year (Northants), thirdly there are two or three 10's who have been clearly better than him this year (Jackson, Keatley, Madigan) and who deserve their chances. Just look at Meyer and Lambie/Goosen!! That worked pretty well eh?

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:So the contentious issues are

1. McCarthy ahead of Tuohy/O'Callaghan ahead of Tuohy - one of the few players to come away from the NZ tour with his reputation enhanced/intact and in fine form with the best team in the league at the moment and he gets dropped... Hmmm.

2. Zebo at FB ahead of Jones/Hurley/Henshaw/Anyone who has played there before... - This one I don't think is as massive a **** up as some. Yes he's inexperienced, but he has the skill set to pull it off, big left boot, good under the high ball. Yes, Madigan or Jones would probably have been smarter but who ever said Deccie was smart...

3. Kilcoyne ahead of Court - So instead of having a loosehead who you know will bring stability off the bench and has been part of a front row at Ulster that has munched any team it's played, you give the first cap to an unproven youngster against one of the best scrummaging teams in the world.... Hmmm.

4. ROG in the squad - Yes we know, he's the eternal "finish out a game" man, but firstly he's only just back from injury, secondly he hasn't had a good game in about a year (Northants), thirdly there are two or three 10's who have been clearly better than him this year (Jackson, Keatley, Madigan) and who deserve their chances. Just look at Meyer and Lambie/Goosen!! That worked pretty well eh?

+ 1 Cheers UIG you saved me the trouble of posting for the rest of the day

SecretFly wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:It's the perfect game to introduce Kilcoyne. He'll no doubt be partnered with Bent for most of his stint and if the scrum's bad no one can pin the blame on one or t'other.
Pleased to see Strauss start. After Best he is the next most accomplished hooker in Ireland. He deserves respect for the commitment he's shown to Ireland going through the qualifying process compared to the inordinate haste with which the IRFU have copper fastened Bent into the side. What is it with Irish Tightheads with names like Buckley and Bent?
McCarthy obviously gets in as the token Connacht man, as neither his stats nor his team's form could be factors.
Not too worried about Ireland's backrow either as they have plenty of physical presence, 90-minute engines and leadership nous.
No point in discussing behind the scrum as they will all be told to kick the ball away, for 'Skrela' to chase. An octogenarian once told me that such tactics used to work in Kidney's sepia toned formative years, but then again he also thought Éamon de Valera was still Taoiseach.
Obviously young guys like Madigan, Keatley and Jackson have never been exposed to such tactics (watching Ireland excepted), so Kidney will have to continue his programme of moulding Johnny the Starter into Ronan the Finisher for the forseeable. Unless the Academies start producing 10's with the requisite skillset aka 'the Garryowen portfolio', it looks as though ROG could yet reach the milestone of 200 caps.

A perfectly poised post, that says just about everything this thread requires - and manages it in 14 very smart lines.

I knew you would like that one fly. heavy on self important opinion and completely lacking in any facts.

No bother rodders, just saying what I see!

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:So the contentious issues are

1. McCarthy ahead of Tuohy/O'Callaghan ahead of Tuohy - one of the few players to come away from the NZ tour with his reputation enhanced/intact and in fine form with the best team in the league at the moment and he gets dropped... Hmmm.

2. Zebo at FB ahead of Jones/Hurley/Henshaw/Anyone who has played there before... - This one I don't think is as massive a **** up as some. Yes he's inexperienced, but he has the skill set to pull it off, big left boot, good under the high ball. Yes, Madigan or Jones would probably have been smarter but who ever said Deccie was smart...

3. Kilcoyne ahead of Court - So instead of having a loosehead who you know will bring stability off the bench and has been part of a front row at Ulster that has munched any team it's played, you give the first cap to an unproven youngster against one of the best scrummaging teams in the world.... Hmmm.

4. ROG in the squad - Yes we know, he's the eternal "finish out a game" man, but firstly he's only just back from injury, secondly he hasn't had a good game in about a year (Northants), thirdly there are two or three 10's who have been clearly better than him this year (Jackson, Keatley, Madigan) and who deserve their chances. Just look at Meyer and Lambie/Goosen!! That worked pretty well eh?

So if I understand you right...

1. We want Tuohy to play even though McCarthy is the form player.
2. Even though Zebo is okish we should play either Madigan or Jones - Madigan who has played a total of 2/3 games at FB in the Pro12/HC and Jones who is just back from injury and hasnt done anything spectacular.....
3. Kilcoyne is young has scrummaged well and is good around the park this year and has improved in every game. So lets give out to DK for bringing in fresh young talent (oh hang on he isnt from my team...ooooerrr)
4. For ROG I would have liked to see Madigan (Jackson has been ok but Keatley is nowhere near Intl standard) so I agree with that. Having said that if Sexton gets under any pressure and starts to play ragged (as he is likely to do) then having ROG is not a bad choice....

DOD wrote:
1. We want Tuohy to play even though McCarthy is the form player.

OK you've lost me there? Form second row in Galway? Mind you I suppose in a quota system thats enough to get selected.....

DOD wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:It's the perfect game to introduce Kilcoyne. He'll no doubt be partnered with Bent for most of his stint and if the scrum's bad no one can pin the blame on one or t'other.
Pleased to see Strauss start. After Best he is the next most accomplished hooker in Ireland. He deserves respect for the commitment he's shown to Ireland going through the qualifying process compared to the inordinate haste with which the IRFU have copper fastened Bent into the side. What is it with Irish Tightheads with names like Buckley and Bent?
McCarthy obviously gets in as the token Connacht man, as neither his stats nor his team's form could be factors.
Not too worried about Ireland's backrow either as they have plenty of physical presence, 90-minute engines and leadership nous.
No point in discussing behind the scrum as they will all be told to kick the ball away, for 'Skrela' to chase. An octogenarian once told me that such tactics used to work in Kidney's sepia toned formative years, but then again he also thought Éamon de Valera was still Taoiseach.
Obviously young guys like Madigan, Keatley and Jackson have never been exposed to such tactics (watching Ireland excepted), so Kidney will have to continue his programme of moulding Johnny the Starter into Ronan the Finisher for the forseeable. Unless the Academies start producing 10's with the requisite skillset aka 'the Garryowen portfolio', it looks as though ROG could yet reach the milestone of 200 caps.

A perfectly poised post, that says just about everything this thread requires - and manages it in 14 very smart lines.

I knew you would like that one fly. heavy on self important opinion and completely lacking in any facts.

Opinion is never a fact DOD - never. And that's why I always have a good giggle at Fact gurus on this site, who feel they can add a sprinkle of self-satisfaction to the stats and claim personal infallibility by osmosis. They are a doodle pip lot. A great bunch of comedians altogether.

Now prove me wrong by dissecting Ireland's tighhead stats for the entire 6 Nations and get back to me. Dying to hear it, DOD.

DOD Glasgow has a point Touhy if you had bothered to watch is actually the form lock and he's not even in the 23 never mind the starting 15.
2. Zebo I have no problem with but your reasoning that Madigan has only played 2/3 game in the Pro 12/HC. Zebo hasn't played any so that mutes your own point mate
3. Court is in better form than Kilcoyne, Kilcoyne by no stretch of the imagination scrumaged well against Ulster. I have no problem bringing in young talent but it must be done at a right time and against South Africa with so many top players already out is not the right time. If (most likely) he gets destroyed tomorrow it could ruin him for life.
4. Jackson has been more than OK for Ulster this season and Keatley has also done fairly well there is no reason other than to see out a game to have O'Gara and if this is the case then why don't you have the experienced better scrumaging prop there or Jennings and not Henderson you can't have part of the team one way and another part not.

DOD wrote:

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:So the contentious issues are

1. McCarthy ahead of Tuohy/O'Callaghan ahead of Tuohy - one of the few players to come away from the NZ tour with his reputation enhanced/intact and in fine form with the best team in the league at the moment and he gets dropped... Hmmm.

2. Zebo at FB ahead of Jones/Hurley/Henshaw/Anyone who has played there before... - This one I don't think is as massive a **** up as some. Yes he's inexperienced, but he has the skill set to pull it off, big left boot, good under the high ball. Yes, Madigan or Jones would probably have been smarter but who ever said Deccie was smart...

3. Kilcoyne ahead of Court - So instead of having a loosehead who you know will bring stability off the bench and has been part of a front row at Ulster that has munched any team it's played, you give the first cap to an unproven youngster against one of the best scrummaging teams in the world.... Hmmm.

4. ROG in the squad - Yes we know, he's the eternal "finish out a game" man, but firstly he's only just back from injury, secondly he hasn't had a good game in about a year (Northants), thirdly there are two or three 10's who have been clearly better than him this year (Jackson, Keatley, Madigan) and who deserve their chances. Just look at Meyer and Lambie/Goosen!! That worked pretty well eh?

So if I understand you right...

1. We want Tuohy to play even though McCarthy is the form player.
2. Even though Zebo is okish we should play either Madigan or Jones - Madigan who has played a total of 2/3 games at FB in the Pro12/HC and Jones who is just back from injury and hasnt done anything spectacular.....
3. Kilcoyne is young has scrummaged well and is good around the park this year and has improved in every game. So lets give out to DK for bringing in fresh young talent (oh hang on he isnt from my team...ooooerrr)
4. For ROG I would have liked to see Madigan (Jackson has been ok but Keatley is nowhere near Intl standard) so I agree with that. Having said that if Sexton gets under any pressure and starts to play ragged (as he is likely to do) then having ROG is not a bad choice....

McCarthy is a form player for the team 8th in the league, Tuohy is a form player for the team 1st in the league... So yes I want Tuohy to play especially as the second row pairing of Ryan and Tuohy did so well in NZ!!!

Honestly Zebo isn't the biggest worry, but yes maybe selecting someone who has played top level rugby (Pro12/HC) at FB before might be a smart idea, that's why I mentioned Jones/Madigan...

If I remember we have a dearth of LHs (McAllister, Court, Healy, Kilcoyne, Wilkinson, Black, McGrath), and so Kidney seems to be blooding players in the wrong position.... How come he isn't bringing through young 10's (a position where we need new blood) or new centres (again position where we need new blood)

And why do we think that Jackson, who has been unbelievably good since the HC final, or Keatley, who has offered more in attack than ROG this year, or Madigan, who has proved this year that he is stepping out of the limelight of Sexton, can't offer a difference off the bench. We won't know until we try them!!!!!