Ireland vs South Africa pre-match talk and squad announcements.

First topic message reminder :

The much anticipated Autumn Iinternationals has arrived and South Africa will begin their three test tour against Ireland on Saturday at Landsdowne road. With a record of only one win in their last four test matches and 3 straight losses between 2004 and 2009, the Springboks would like to continue their resurgence against Ireland and emulate their two point victory of 2010.

But will they be up for an Ireland team who have been just about as disappointing as the Springboks were in 2012.

Ireland who boast wins over Scotland and Italy and a Hard earned draw over France at Stade de France earlier in the year has a disappointing return of 5 losses, 2 wins and 1 draw for the year.

South Africa has not fared much better, with 4 wins, 3 losses and 2 draws for the year.

Both teams will rue lost opportunities during the year where execution and specifically goal kicking have haunted the Springboks in Particular. Their goal kickin records stands at a miserly 55% for the year and will lose you more tests than win.

Ireland will be without their inspirational captain Brian O'Driscoll and South Africa after a long season will bewithout the services of Arguably the best Hooker in world rugby Bismarck du Plessis, the athletic Andries Bekker, talisman Schalk Burger, Pierre Spies, Heinrich Brussow, Johan Goosen, Bryan Habana (yeah I know I am complaining a bit much here), Frans Steyn and Coenie Oosthuizen.

Will this end of season tour be a bridge too far for an injury riddled South African squad or will they be able to overcome an Irish team who hasn't convinced this year.

Likely SA matchday 22.

1. Beast Mtwarira
2. Adriaan Strauss
3. Jannie du Plessis
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. Juandre Kruger (Marco Wentzel)
6. Francois Louw
7. Willem Alberts
8. Duane Vermeulen
9. Ruan Pienaar
10. Patrick Lambie
11. Francois Hougaard
12. Jean de Villiers
13. Jaco Taute
14. JP Pietersen
15. Zane Kirchner

Bench
16. Gurthro Steenkamp
17. Schalk Brits
18. Pat Cilliers
19. Flip v d Merwe
20. Marcelle Coetzee
21. Franco v d Merwe
22. Jan Vermaak
23. Morne Steyn

I'll update if someone provides me a likely Irish matchday 22.

Notch wrote:Jesus wept man.

Are you happy to accept mediocrity in your national side just so you can score some points about provincial players?

How can anyone have watched that and not seen how a lack of a backs coach is killing us is utterly beyond me.

And a lack of a quality 12. Seriously it is absolutely clear that the Irish game plan, when it comes to using the backs, is ah sure give it to Keith or Tommy, they'll make something happen. And to be fair, the two lads were trying there best but when they manage to break a tackle or take a good line, they either don't have any support or don't get given the ball. It must be extremely frustrating to see Darcy take contact for the umpteenth time, or for him to see the pass way to late and for the receiver to get the ball and a 20stone Saffer at the same time.

Sexton is not good enough he is at best a stop gap until Madigan/Jackson or Hanrahan come through.

DOD wrote:Sexton is not good enough he is at best a stop gap until Madigan/Jackson or Hanrahan come through.

That statement is clearly a load of shi*e. He has been the best outhalf in Europe for the last two years.

Any chance a mod might just be able to stop yet another Irish thread being hijacked by a deliberate WUM? Some of us actually want to talk about Irish rugby thanks.

Yeah I wouldn't criticise any of the players in the back three given what they have inside them.

To be honest, I wanted us to kick a lot more ball. For the corners and looking for the drop goal We were so poor in attack we would have been better looking for the drop goal as soon as we got into their half. We essentially don't have a backline.

We might as well just pick the biggest centres and wingers available because our attacking play is essentially individuals forced into taking contact. We should have just kicked and chased, we were never going to break the line.

O'Gara would have been a better option than Sexton for this. Sexton is a running outhalf in a team that doesn't understand backs play. We need a complete overhaul in terms of tactics and our coaching, but Kidney can't provide that. At least 10-man rugby is something he understands.

Notch wrote:Yeah I wouldn't criticise any of the players in the back three given what they have inside them.

To be honest, I wanted us to kick a lot more ball. For the corners and looking for the drop goal We were so poor in attack we would have been better looking for the drop goal as soon as we got into their half. We essentially don't have a backline.

We might as well just pick the biggest centres and wingers available because our attacking play is essentially individuals forced into taking contact. We should have just kicked and chased, we were never going to break the line.

O'Gara would have been a better option than Sexton for this. Sexton is a running outhalf in a team that doesn't understand backs play. We need a complete overhaul in terms of tactics and our coaching, but Kidney can't provide that. At least 10-man rugby is something he understands.

Notch, Sexton is just as capable of kicking the corners as Rog is. He is probably more capable of this type of gameplan nowadays considering how much distance Rog has lost from his kicks.

valjester wrote:

DOD wrote:Sexton is not good enough he is at best a stop gap until Madigan/Jackson or Hanrahan come through.

That statement is clearly a load of shi*e. He has been the best outhalf in Europe for the last two years.

That statement is also a load of sh1te...he cant get his backline moving, he cant kick very well and it seems his tackling is not great. Also the SA hooker took him on the outside...

Just been watching Freddie Michelak....pulling the strings against Aus....looks pretty handy to me...is he new?

No one could get that backline moving, there is absolutely no running lines or anything of that sort. We need a backs coach, I don't give a feic who he is at this stage he can't be worse than the Kiss, whose double jobbing is doing damage to our defence.

The French are absolutely kicking the sh1te out of Aus...great game.

Thomond wrote:No one could get that backline moving, there is absolutely no running lines or anything of that sort. We need a backs coach, I don't give a feic who he is at this stage he can't be worse than the Kiss, whose double jobbing is doing damage to our defence.

Except of course Kiss isn't double jobbing any more is he? he is the attack coach and Axel is defence coach - yes?

oh hang on a guy called Trinh-duc has just come on for France another decent enough OH I believe...

DOD wrote:oh hang on a guy called Trinh-duc has just come on for France another decent enough OH I believe...

Trinh-duc? He's really not that good.

DOD wrote:

valjester wrote:

DOD wrote:Sexton is not good enough he is at best a stop gap until Madigan/Jackson or Hanrahan come through.

That statement is clearly a load of shi*e. He has been the best outhalf in Europe for the last two years.

That statement is also a load of sh1te...he cant get his backline moving, he cant kick very well and it seems his tackling is not great. Also the SA hooker took him on the outside...

Just been watching Freddie Michelak....pulling the strings against Aus....looks pretty handy to me...is he new?

Yes, Sexton has been the best number 10 playing in the NH for the last two years, I would take him over any other player in the HEC. Michalak is one of the best atttacking rugby players in the world on his day, he is also a huge flake who struggles under pressure. The bolded is clearly false.

KiaRose wrote:

Thomond wrote:No one could get that backline moving, there is absolutely no running lines or anything of that sort. We need a backs coach, I don't give a feic who he is at this stage he can't be worse than the Kiss, whose double jobbing is doing damage to our defence.

Except of course Kiss isn't double jobbing any more is he? he is the attack coach and Axel is defence coach - yes?

Yeah forgot about that, we haven't been together for too long to be fair but it's still not good enough, we would need a drastic improvement come 6 Nations time to warrant him getting an extension.

valjester wrote:

DOD wrote:

valjester wrote:

DOD wrote:Sexton is not good enough he is at best a stop gap until Madigan/Jackson or Hanrahan come through.

That statement is clearly a load of shi*e. He has been the best outhalf in Europe for the last two years.

That statement is also a load of sh1te...he cant get his backline moving, he cant kick very well and it seems his tackling is not great. Also the SA hooker took him on the outside...

Just been watching Freddie Michelak....pulling the strings against Aus....looks pretty handy to me...is he new?

Yes, Sexton has been the best number 10 playing in the NH for the last two years, I would take him over any other player in the HEC. Michalak is one of the best atttacking rugby players in the world on his day, he is also a huge flake who struggles under pressure. The bolded is clearly false.

The bolded was very true today....

Do you never tire of having the same argument on every thread?

Goodness, I'd take the rememberance day argument back over the tosh DOD talks...

Yes you are right...Sexton was clearly the difference between the teams today literally...

Interview with Deccie.

Gist of it seems to be

"whoopsie do, la la la, upsa daisy, I wont say we were bad, i wont say i'm dissapointed, i wont make excuses, it is what it is, i'll make no promises, hey ho, off we go, maybe we will get better, maybe we wont, sure what of it anyway, supercalifragilisticexpialidocious, all the best now, ok so!"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20284561?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

It was very obvious that Kidney has selected a very poor balance of grunt and mobility in the tight five. McCarthy had a good game in the loose but just doesn't have the power to be a Test lock. Strauss can be good in the loose but someone really has to be in the tight. Once the Boks cottoned on to the soft underbelly they grunted it up at every opportunity.

Criticism of the backs is pointless as they had no gameplan. I'm not privy to the fine details of Kidney's training sessions but I got the distinct impression that they must regularly involve him giving the succinct instruction to "give it a lash".

The Bokke turned round a 12-3 deficit in the first half to a 13-0 advantage in the second half. Which coaching team earned their corn at the break? Kidney is studiously following a playbook for a game that ceased to be played about five years ago - agree 100% Notch.

clivemcl wrote:Interview with Deccie.

Gist of it seems to be

"whoopsie do, la la la, upsa daisy, I wont say we were bad, i wont say i'm dissapointed, i wont make excuses, it is what it is, i'll make no promises, hey ho, off we go, maybe we will get better, maybe we wont, sure what of it anyway, supercalifragilisticexpialidocious, all the best now, ok so!"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20284561?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

Mind you, you would want to swing for yer wan wouldn't ya?

I remember when interviewers used to ask questions rather than make statements and expect you to agree.

You sure wouuld. Worst interviewer ever.

But about the title of the BBC article. It quotes Deccie saying he wouldn't 'make excuses'.

Deccie and the BBC seem to think this is a good thing, to NOT 'make excuses'. Am I missing something??

Is saying there are no excuses not the same as saying 'we are what we are, that the best anyone could hope for?'

I'd rather he came out and admitted there were problems and made a pledge to address them instead of pretending there were no reasons for why we lost.

I just don't understand the man. Everytime he speaks, I'm confused.

He says a lot, but also doesnt actually say ANYTHING.

clivemcl wrote:You sure wouuld. Worst interviewer ever.

But about the title of the BBC article. It quotes Deccie saying he wouldn't 'make excuses'.

Deccie and the BBC seem to think this is a good thing, to NOT 'make excuses'. Am I missing something??

Is saying there are no excuses not the same as saying 'we are what we are, that the best anyone could hope for?'

I'd rather he came out and admitted there were problems and made a pledge to address them instead of pretending there were no reasons for why we lost.

I just don't understand the man. Everytime he speaks, I'm confused.

He says a lot, but also doesnt actually say ANYTHING.

That's because he knows how to deal with the media. Very few coaches (or seldom does a coach) say anythng that means anything to the media, especially good oul Deccie. They just talk rubbish and deal with the questions before them in a roundabout way with the usual soundbites etc. Same with alot of pundits to be honest. Thank gaud for the punch and judy show that is hook and popey

I'm beginning to wonder if he isn't the same away from the cameras. Would explain a lot of how we're playing. We look uncoached.

I couldn't really understand the man of the match decision either- wasn't McCarthy the one calling our lineout which misfired badly?

Notch wrote:I said this in the pub but its probably more relevant here;

My dad got us tickets for this game, surprised me with them. Very grateful about this but I had to say "if you get the chance to get tickets for the 6N, don't take them. There's plenty of other rugby to be played post-6N which offers way better value for money". I knew exactly what was going to happen before the match, and sure enough it happened.

We had a great view directly behind the posts and you can just see the effect not hiring a backs coach has- because all we do is run across the pitch and move the ball laterally. There are no dummy runners, there is no-one changing the point of attack, theres no-one giving the ball carrier the option of an offload. We don't have a backline- we only have individual backs. And our only plan is to give them the ball and hope they can create something from nothing- at no point were the South Africans anything less than completely comfortable. We get the ball in the 22 and I'm screaming for the drop goal because I know we will never, ever be able to engineer a line break.

I think the moment I felt like walking out was when they brought McFadden on for Trimble and left Earls at 13. The guy is without a doubt not a centre. 2nd minute we saw that, with him not knowing what to do with a basic 2-on-1 overlap. But without a backs coach, there's no-one in the set-up to point this out to him. And so we have a centre playing out of position on the wing to accommodate him...

I care passionately about this team, but there's no way we're going all the way to Dublin to watch us struggle with problems which haven't been addressed for years. We all know whats holding this team back- its a coaching issue, and we probably would have won with a competent backs coach. But nothing will be done about this. We'll just write off another season of international rugby.

I'll add this. We are all talking about individual players. Complete red herring. There's no structure or plan when the ball goes beyond 10. Zebo did well, but he's just another dutiful soldier on the Titanic. Doesn't matter how good the individual is if he's being asked to do it all himself. Earls did badly, but it's not his fault- he's a potentially outstanding winger who needs to be sat down and told to forget about playing outside centre. It's simply not a role he's suited to.

I did think a lot of the players who were brought in did well- Strauss, Zebo, Henry. It would be utterly craven to blame injuries. We lost because we had no idea how to engineer a linebreak, how to score points. The Boks gave us a surfeit of kickable penalties in the first half in a very disappointing display from them. As soon as they walked out after half time, we were never gonna win. Not because of the personnel- this is purely a coaching issue. The players who took to the field were good enough. All we need is a gameplan.

+1

I completely agree with this.

This morning I was coaching my first years who had two games (A's and B's). We haven't had them for that long so most of the stuff we have done with them was the tackle, the ruck and handling. They competed excellently in all these facets and we're entirely dominant in terms of possession. The A's couldn't manufacture a linebreak however, the ball started at 10 and ended up in a winger 40 yards to the right/left and only 10 or so yards forward.

Needless to say we will be working on them running straight and drawing men but it demonstrated how you can shoot yourself in the foot when you have the ball sometimes. How were our pack supposed to get there to help out?

Ireland looked the same as these 13 year olds IMO.

I completely agree that while Earls made all his tackles ( ) he didn't look dangerous ever and he had opportunities to which is the most frustrating part. I really hate him as a 13. It seems like the spoiled kid stamping his feet screaming 'I wanna play 13! I wanna play 13'

I am a 9 or 10 and really want to just be a 10 but my team needs a 9 so I deal with it and don't complain and it has made me a better player.

Speaking of scrumhales: Conor Murray has really taken to walking down the Tomas O'Leary path of scrumhalves. His physicality and defence are massive but he rarely gets to display this because it is a rather minor part of a 9's game. His passing was atrocious I felt and his decision making was poor, I do feel his speed of service (this means getting the ball out of the ruck) was 'ok'.

How many times did Sexton have to check his run to take a pass? How many passes were above his head? Why did Murray feed McCarthy on a blindside where it was 2 versus 5 against McCarthy? Why did he skip Strauss and give the ball to Healy at 2nd receiver leaving him isolated (again on the blindside).

This lad has got considerably worse in the last 18 months IMO and it is something that needs to be addressed. He has such promise and talent but his basics are all over the place.

Our backs are all relatively small and thus can not go through set or prepared defences. We need quick ball so our backs can maneuver there way in between or around defences. COnor Murray does not seem to be able to supply this quick ball. So many of the Irish team seem incapable of making a line or doing anything other than drifting.

Our backs are a shambles.

On a positive note:
Strauss, Bent, McCarthy and Zebo all looked very good IMO

Patience folks, patience. http://kidneyclock.net/

Zebo could be having Trimble's shirt he looked more dangerous, I also thought Henry did well at the breakdown getting over doing a proper 7's work this could be bad for Heaslip when everyone returns. D'Arcy was poor as was Murray's passing. It seems pretty aimless at times though I can't say to much negative about players because in my opinion its mostly the coach to blame here.

From a neutral(ish) point of view SA sorted out their discipline after ht and decided to give it a go at the start of the 2nd half. It worked, and once they got the lead they did not look troubled.

There were lots of first choice players missing from both teams, but Ireland missed theirs more I reckon.

And to the two spanners who posted the 'political' stuff earlier - leave that stuff out. You are out of your depth in any case.

Onwards and upwards Ireland. Good luck in the next one.

I would have no real problem with Zebo taking Trimbles shirt. He's really come good this season.

But then, who do you slot into fullback? I think I might keep Zebo at 15, move Earls to 11 and bring in Cave to 13.

I wish we had someone bigger and faster than Cave though. Cave is a very intelligent rugby player (and some of our decision making in the backs was poor so he could help there) but he isn't fast enough or strong enough to break the line on his own against an organised defence and lord knows we don't know how to do anything other than give the ball to a back and hope we somehow cross the gainline.

Cant wait for a Post-Kidney Ireland. Just spent the avond met a Saffer rugby speler. He really cant understand why we hold back either.

On a side note. Im soo glad ROG came on. I'm just so glad he was there to come on at all. Blessed. Blessed we are.
We now need(just like 4 years ago Deccie) to beat a strong Argentinian side, to even deserve to live in the top 8. Just like 4 years ago. We have come such a short way really.

P.S. Don't even mention de Welsh. They thought they were grand . They don't now. Regions -> Failure -> Country -> Failure. You add up the Numbehs.

Notch wrote:I would have no real problem with Zebo taking Trimbles shirt. He's really come good this season.

But then, who do you slot into fullback? I think I might keep Zebo at 15, move Earls to 11 and bring in Cave to 13.

I wish we had someone bigger and faster than Cave though. Cave is a very intelligent rugby player (and some of our decision making in the backs was poor so he could help there) but he isn't fast enough or strong enough to break the line on his own against an organised defence and lord knows we don't know how to do anything other than give the ball to a back and hope we somehow cross the gainline.

But its not about this Notch. It's about looking at the strengths of your players and working out a tactical gameplan that suits their style of play. How did Ulster play that made Cave one of the form 13s in Europe last season? What does Sean O'Brien do for Leinster that he doesn't do for Ireland? Why is Sexton able to control a match for Leinster and not for Ireland?

So what are Cave's strengths? If its not pace then how is he effective for Ulster? How can that be replicated for Ireland? Could those strengths be harnessed better for Ireland at 12? The same could be asked for Bowe, or for picking better dynamic second rows. We have few resources and a small player base. There is one other country that staggering overachieves and yet we have learnt no lessons about how the Australians approach coaching and selection.

I agree Notch was thinking more about when players like Kearney are fit again. We shall see if anyone puts their hand up v Fiji and if Deccie actually cares if they do.

Notch wrote:I would have no real problem with Zebo taking Trimbles shirt. He's really come good this season.

But then, who do you slot into fullback? I think I might keep Zebo at 15, move Earls to 11 and bring in Cave to 13.

I wish we had someone bigger and faster than Cave though. Cave is a very intelligent rugby player (and some of our decision making in the backs was poor so he could help there) but he isn't fast enough or strong enough to break the line on his own against an organised defence and lord knows we don't know how to do anything other than give the ball to a back and hope we somehow cross the gainline.

Notch,
Cave will never be, or should ever be, even near an Irish squad. Stop dreaming. Stop pontificating about it. He's not good enough.

Man,

You're talking as if there are other decent centres out there. We've tried Earls and the experiment has failed. O'Driscoll is injured. If we move Earls back to the back three where he belongs it's basically a toss up between Cave and McFadden.

It's just such an absurd thing to say. Munster have Lualala there- we have a choice of persevering with Earls or McFadden, Cave, Griffin. Never be near an Irish squad? He's already just a couple more injuries away from starting because there is no-one else.

Gibson wrote:

Notch wrote:I would have no real problem with Zebo taking Trimbles shirt. He's really come good this season.

But then, who do you slot into fullback? I think I might keep Zebo at 15, move Earls to 11 and bring in Cave to 13.

I wish we had someone bigger and faster than Cave though. Cave is a very intelligent rugby player (and some of our decision making in the backs was poor so he could help there) but he isn't fast enough or strong enough to break the line on his own against an organised defence and lord knows we don't know how to do anything other than give the ball to a back and hope we somehow cross the gainline.

Notch,
Cave will never be, or should ever be, even near an Irish squad. Stop dreaming. Stop pontificating about it. He's not good enough.

Why not? He has a brain, good skills and good defense.

McFadden. Ja. No, he wont cut it either. I agree. He's very dispensable.

The answer at 13, is O' Malley.

Frankly, it's always this way. X isn't good enough etc.

Right now, the incumbent isn't doing the basics of the position. He may not be brilliant but he's not going to be worse either.

One thing about a potential D'Arcy-Cave partnership is D'Arcy naturally likes to drift whereas Cave likes to shoot out to take man and ball. I wouldn't be sure about the defensive partnership.

Normally I would say this is something Les Kiss can work out, but he is no longer in charge of defence. Instead we have Foley.

I would rather have Cave at 13 even if he is average than Earls who demonstrably cannot play 13. Good winger, maybe even a good fullback, but not a 13. All the while our only threatening wing rots on the sideline like yesterdays fish.

I had to edit myself Gibbo, even for me that joke on fishy scents was too course for the eyes of the innocent. Won't somebody please think of the children?

profitius wrote:

Gibson wrote:

Notch wrote:I would have no real problem with Zebo taking Trimbles shirt. He's really come good this season.

But then, who do you slot into fullback? I think I might keep Zebo at 15, move Earls to 11 and bring in Cave to 13.

I wish we had someone bigger and faster than Cave though. Cave is a very intelligent rugby player (and some of our decision making in the backs was poor so he could help there) but he isn't fast enough or strong enough to break the line on his own against an organised defence and lord knows we don't know how to do anything other than give the ball to a back and hope we somehow cross the gainline.

Notch,
Cave will never be, or should ever be, even near an Irish squad. Stop dreaming. Stop pontificating about it. He's not good enough.

Why not? He has a brain, good skills and good defense.

And? Is he good enough to represent his country and do it proud? I don't think so. Stop being so provincial about it. Be blatantly objective for a change. Think about your Country.
If we lose to a great Argentinian side, we will end up playing with the Russians for a last 8 spot. Just about our level right now.

Let's not be Welsh here. Lets be real. Because that's where we are right now.

Gibson wrote:

profitius wrote:

Gibson wrote:

Notch wrote:I would have no real problem with Zebo taking Trimbles shirt. He's really come good this season.

But then, who do you slot into fullback? I think I might keep Zebo at 15, move Earls to 11 and bring in Cave to 13.

I wish we had someone bigger and faster than Cave though. Cave is a very intelligent rugby player (and some of our decision making in the backs was poor so he could help there) but he isn't fast enough or strong enough to break the line on his own against an organised defence and lord knows we don't know how to do anything other than give the ball to a back and hope we somehow cross the gainline.

Notch,
Cave will never be, or should ever be, even near an Irish squad. Stop dreaming. Stop pontificating about it. He's not good enough.

Why not? He has a brain, good skills and good defense.

And? Is he good enough to represent his country and do it proud? I don't think so. Stop being so provincial about it. Be blatantly objective for a change. Think about your Country.
If we lose to a great Argentinian side, we will end up playing with the Russians for a last 8 spot. Just about our level right now.

Let's not be Welsh here. Lets be real. Because that's where we are right now.

I'm a Munster fan Gibson. I do think Cave is a good player and he has a brain.

Cave is not a better player than Earls, but he is most certainly a better outside centre and if we start getting really crazy and picking players in their best positions then he is the best of several underwhelming options.

I do believe Earls is a better winger than Trimble and Cave is a better centre than Earls so being blatantly objective (as you so offensively imply I'm not being) it will slightly improve things.

valjester wrote:

DOD wrote:Sexton is not good enough he is at best a stop gap until Madigan/Jackson or Hanrahan come through.

That statement is clearly a load of shi*e. He has been the best outhalf in Europe for the last two years.

Yerman talks a lot of sense.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Notch wrote:...but he isn't fast enough or strong enough to break the line on his own against an organised defence and lord knows we don't know how to do anything other than give the ball to a back and hope we somehow cross the gainline.

But its not about this Notch. It's about looking at the strengths of your players and working out a tactical gameplan that suits their style of play. How did Ulster play that made Cave one of the form 13s in Europe last season? What does Sean O'Brien do for Leinster that he doesn't do for Ireland? Why is Sexton able to control a match for Leinster and not for Ireland?

So what are Cave's strengths? If its not pace then how is he effective for Ulster? How can that be replicated for Ireland? Could those strengths be harnessed better for Ireland at 12? The same could be asked for Bowe, or for picking better dynamic second rows. We have few resources and a small player base. There is one other country that staggering overachieves and yet we have learnt no lessons about how the Australians approach coaching and selection.

None of that 'staggering overachieving' last night though. The Wallabies were bereft of any semblance of a structured gameplan.

Totally clueless. Made a mockery of. It was abysmal viewing for an Australian rugby fan. They are like a big fake plastic bubble that has burst - to reveal nothing inside! For us, it was a combination of wrong attitude, unprepared for the ambush which they knew was imminent and having no plan to deal with it from the players. Only one side turned up. England will kill us by 35+ next week if we do that again.

Like Ireland (and Notch's comments and Pete's description of watching the 5.y.o. game above... the Wallabies/Ireland are also unable to find a way to crack defences, use guile and combinations of dummy runners to drag defenders and create space to either break the line or pop pass through,) the Wallabies, when they actually got the ball out were already swamped by defenders. It was almost RL 'up in your face' smothering tackles and they did it for the full 80. Full marks to them for that. We sure got towelled up.

Maybe marginally offside but tough titties... they deserved no credit from Owens (and didn't get much either) whereas France had intent, and the will to go forward through better ball distribution and running/kicking combinations. The bounce of the ball seemed to go with them but they made it all happen and scored some superb tries.

Back to Ireland - at least your team looked to be more in the game. You showed far more intensity than Australia did. OK, like us, you've got swathes of key players missing through injury but also (like Australia) this added burden of selecting the right combinations. Zebo looked very good. Even though you fluffed up a few opportunities, Murray's distribution was better than Phipp's, you ruffled up the Boks for a substantial part of the game and competed better up front than Oz did against France. That was our 2nd worst or worst? defeat ever.

I also reckon Ireland's mindset is better than ours. Seems to be more team unity (despite all the inter-provincial banter on here) and a more genuine attempt to 'give it your best'... even if you fall just short. To lose by 4 points to an injury affected Bok side is not a bad achievement.


So whether it's player or system or tactics or the head-space the team is in - we just have to keep the faith I suppose and hope that these or other players will develop better skills and exhibit successful execution of the game plan - and try to figure out new ways to break the line. I share the same frustrations as you guys though.

Notch, I hope you thanked yer Da for the tickets, ja?

That's a wonderful thing for a father to do for a son. He must feel the same as you about the quality of the game, right?

You've just got to ride it out. Like me and my old man about 30 years ago when Les Kiss (playing for Qld) would dance his way through 4 or 5 NSW players and plant the ball down under the posts.

I see what you mean about not wanting to go to Dublin for 6N - exactly the same way I feel about the Tahs. We should be the 'Leinster of the South Pacific' (baring NZ teams for a minute) and yet they are not worth one quarter of the bridge/tunnel toll. They are consistently disappointing to watch live and I've been burnt many times before. There will need to be some major change in player attitude before I'll get back behind them. Seriously, I had it with them about 10 years or more ago!

They seem to be more worried about their 'appearance' with their moustaches & tatts, making deodorant or sports drink/medicine adds.... get paid about $400k..... and forget and/or are unable to break the line.

Same with the cricket. There should be a law. Either you've taken 100 Test wickets or scored 3000 Test runs before you make 'smart arsed' commercials. I love it when the bloke gets out and then they realise the commercial no longer makes any sense. "We spent all our money on this guy?"

Linebreaker wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Notch wrote:...but he isn't fast enough or strong enough to break the line on his own against an organised defence and lord knows we don't know how to do anything other than give the ball to a back and hope we somehow cross the gainline.

But its not about this Notch. It's about looking at the strengths of your players and working out a tactical gameplan that suits their style of play. How did Ulster play that made Cave one of the form 13s in Europe last season? What does Sean O'Brien do for Leinster that he doesn't do for Ireland? Why is Sexton able to control a match for Leinster and not for Ireland?

So what are Cave's strengths? If its not pace then how is he effective for Ulster? How can that be replicated for Ireland? Could those strengths be harnessed better for Ireland at 12? The same could be asked for Bowe, or for picking better dynamic second rows. We have few resources and a small player base. There is one other country that staggering overachieves and yet we have learnt no lessons about how the Australians approach coaching and selection.

None of that 'staggering overachieving' last night though. The Wallabies were bereft of any semblance of a structured gameplan.

Totally clueless. Made a mockery of. It was abysmal viewing for an Australian rugby fan. They are like a big fake plastic bubble that has burst - to reveal nothing inside! For us, it was a combination of wrong attitude, unprepared for the ambush which they knew was imminent and having no plan to deal with it from the players. Only one side turned up. England will kill us by 35+ next week if we do that again.

Like Ireland (and Notch's comments and Pete's description of watching the 5.y.o. game above... the Wallabies/Ireland are also unable to find a way to crack defences, use guile and combinations of dummy runners to drag defenders and create space to either break the line or pop pass through,) the Wallabies, when they actually got the ball out were already swamped by defenders. It was almost RL 'up in your face' smothering tackles and they did it for the full 80. Full marks to them for that. We sure got towelled up.

Maybe marginally offside but tough titties... they deserved no credit from Owens (and didn't get much either) whereas France had intent, and the will to go forward through better ball distribution and running/kicking combinations. The bounce of the ball seemed to go with them but they made it all happen and scored some superb tries.

Back to Ireland - at least your team looked to be more in the game. You showed far more intensity than Australia did. OK, like us, you've got swathes of key players missing through injury but also (like Australia) this added burden of selecting the right combinations. Zebo looked very good. Even though you fluffed up a few opportunities, Murray's distribution was better than Phipp's, you ruffled up the Boks for a substantial part of the game and competed better up front than Oz did against France. That was our 2nd worst or worst? defeat ever.

I also reckon Ireland's mindset is better than ours. Seems to be more team unity (despite all the inter-provincial banter on here) and a more genuine attempt to 'give it your best'... even if you fall just short. To lose by 4 points to an injury affected Bok side is not a bad achievement.


So whether it's player or system or tactics or the head-space the team is in - we just have to keep the faith I suppose and hope that these or other players will develop better skills and exhibit successful execution of the game plan - and try to figure out new ways to break the line. I share the same frustrations as you guys though.

Notch, I hope you thanked yer Da for the tickets, ja?

That's a wonderful thing for a father to do for a son. He must feel the same as you about the quality of the game, right?

You've just got to ride it out. Like me and my old man about 30 years ago when Les Kiss (playing for Qld) would dance his way through 4 or 5 NSW players and plant the ball down under the posts.

I see what you mean about not wanting to go to Dublin for 6N - exactly the same way I feel about the Tahs. We should be the 'Leinster of the South Pacific' (baring NZ teams for a minute) and yet they are not worth one quarter of the bridge/tunnel toll. They are consistently disappointing to watch live and I've been burnt many times before. There will need to be some major change in player attitude before I'll get back behind them. Seriously, I had it with them about 10 years or more ago!

They seem to be more worried about their 'appearance' with their moustaches & tatts, making deodorant or sports drink/medicine adds.... get paid about $400k..... and forget and/or are unable to break the line.

Same with the cricket. There should be a law. Either you've taken 100 Test wickets or scored 3000 Test runs before you make 'smart arsed' commercials. I love it when the bloke gets out and then they realise the commercial no longer makes any sense. "We spent all our money on this guy?"

Totally agree with the bolded part. I find it makes an attack completely one dimensional and very easy to read. We never really looked like breaking the line and yes it did look like rugby league.

It is such a small change but makes a huge difference, run a line and know that you may not get the ball but be ready if you do. Run hard and start shouting. The defence immediately checks and it buys space for those around you. I simply CAN NOT understand why we don't do this.

Someone said they wanted a 13 with pace, power and the ability to straighten the line and cut an angle.............Tommy Bowe......................

ps: Will Argentina jump us now that they have beaten Wales?

The have yes Pete

WEll done yesterday Biltong good second half from ur lads really got their discipline together and started doing the simple things well

Thanks Pete, I am just really concenred why it takes us so long to figure out referees.

It has cost us dearly over the past and it seems we just don't have the intelligence to adapt.

Althoug it must be said some of the penalties we got I myself thought were unfair.

It's just a communication thing isn't it? It should be very easy to solve IMO.
Captain listens to referree then team listen to the captain. I think that should be a simple enough area to resolve.

What you think of Lambie? I wasn't gone him I must say and felt Ruan had to guide him more than I had expected. Alberts is some lump of a lad sweet jesus!