Dragons whats that all about then?

Same money as the other regions but seem forever happy to be a second grade team.

???

Indeed

we have the same funding as all the other regions, however have had no where near as much backing from individuals as the other three regions have over the years...

however one could argue there would appear a lack of ambition but again without someone to bankroll a couple of marquee signings its allways going to be the same...

on a side note to your original point, they are going nowhere and i dont think in my opinion that DE is getting the best out of the group of players and should resign. Looking at his after match comments on friday he looks a defeated man

But why are they 'happy' to be a second grade team? Who said that? I did miss scrum v. Was something said?

i think he is referring to an apparent lack of ambition potentially in the choice of coach and losing our top players, which could be argued, however to do anything else requires money which we just dont have. I also think perhaps there is an element of a WUM in the post

Nothing was said, but the clear lack of ambition, they don't even bother trying on away games.
They have some cracking players but don't seem to be pushed.
Also the whole we don't have indoor training and world class gyms doesn't wash either,
Reading Perry Freshwater comments on Barritz training style being very limited compared to the Ospreys and James Hook will have to get used to finding your own way to the gym and make your own protein shakes etc etc
proves you make the best out of what you got.

definately agree with that point. And as I said I dont believe DE is doing that and a change is required.

How much would we love a lyn jones in charge right now

Lyn Jones would be an amazing coach for the Dragons,
a patient coach he is happy when every one tries their best.

No WUM in this article, just a serious question, i like the Dragons and think they have the best crowd, hit a few games a season n matter who the play i find it a great match experience.

we couldnt afford him, I think after his exploits with LW he will be kept their or targeted by another side.

TBH if DE does go (and i do not think he will as he is probably under very little pressure from the board) it would be another promotion for a lower level. I would like to see someone who could command respect in the dressing room. Either a Greg Woods + Mark Ring (Cross Keys) or Dale Mcintosh....however the state we are in i dont think we could tempt them at this point in time..

definitely dire times

viewtothegym wrote:Nothing was said, but the clear lack of ambition, they don't even bother trying on away games.
They have some cracking players but don't seem to be pushed.
Also the whole we don't have indoor training and world class gyms doesn't wash either,
Reading Perry Freshwater comments on Barritz training style being very limited compared to the Ospreys and James Hook will have to get used to finding your own way to the gym and make your own protein shakes etc etc
proves you make the best out of what you got.

I know what you're saying, but players have left us because of our facilities. It must also mean that players don't want to join because of our poor facilities too. I've been in the gym at Rodney Parade and it is nothing more than a tin hut with a load of weights in it. Which is why they've been training at the new Bettws High School. How do you raise the players aspirations, encourage young players to stay, and attract new players when in 10 years the club/region has not had the ambition or the foresight to improve their facilities. 10 years! Biarritz may be limited too, but if they're willing to pay 3 times the salary than in Wales then players might sacrifice training facilities for life changing pay. At the dragons the pay is crap and the facilities are crap. What is the attraction in joining?! We need to offer them something. Players are fickle in the pro game. Good facilities in a poor team may just be enough to attract some decent players. But, pay them peanuts and keep them in a cage and you only attract monkeys (or not attract, as the case may be).

I don't really think this is to fair on Dragons

Cardiff Blues played 8 won 3 lost 5
Dragons played 8 won 2 lost 6,

Only one win difference. Ok Blues have picked up more bonus points, but they likewise have suffered some embrassing defeats, and would have had higher expections than Dragons fans for the season. One win and Dragons could be in hunt for 3rd place, which will give them something to play for this season and results improve.

viewtothegym wrote:Same money as the other regions but seem forever happy to be a second grade team.

Care to explain the absurd reasoning behind this statement?

As an entity the Dragons should find it easier to attract a sponsor or benefactor than some of the other regions with such a loyal fan base.

The dragons are a very passionately supported club, good stadium, great atmosphere. Everyone loves a trip to the RP.

The main problem for the Dragons is the facilities are no where near what the other regions have off the pitch. Players can't train as well as their competition.

As posted after the Ulster thread Edwards has to go hes not got the ability like Turner had to get the best out of the players and our defence has been pants since Charvis left

Kingshu wrote:I don't really think this is to fair on Dragons

Cardiff Blues played 8 won 3 lost 5
Dragons played 8 won 2 lost 6,

Only one win difference. Ok Blues have picked up more bonus points, but they likewise have suffered some embrassing defeats, and would have had higher expections than Dragons fans for the season. One win and Dragons could be in hunt for 3rd place, which will give them something to play for this season and results improve.

Take it from all competitions

Ospreys played 10 lost 4 = 60% wins
Scarlets played 10 lost 4 = 60% wins
Blues played 10 lost 7 = 30% wins
Dragons Played 10 lost 8 = 20% wins

however wait until the next round of the HEC/Amlin, or the end of 2012, and then compare the percentages and the gaps will have closed even more (I believe)

Being realistic there is not too much seperating the Dragons and the Blues at all, however people say poor Cardiff haven't got a good head-coach, have lost too many key players etc etc. The only thing that realistically separates the two of them is the game between the two of them at Rodney Parade, if that game had gone the otherway the Blues would be sitting at the bottom of the table, and we would probably have no end of folk on here talking up the dragons for being so hight in the league

Stone Motif wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:Same money as the other regions but seem forever happy to be a second grade team.

Care to explain the absurd reasoning behind this statement?

I believe the thinking is (and these are views I have heard aired on other rugby sites, not necessary my own)

1) The Dragons have the same amount of funding from the WRU as all of the other regions, however the other regions have larger amounts of players who get called up by the welsh squad for chunks of the season, so the Dragons are technically getting a larger amount of money per player from the WRU than the other regions.

2) The Dragons were supposedly the loudest in their objections to the centralised contracts, which would see them lose their cut of the £6m and only have two players contracted. Some people believe this objection is stiffing the other regions financially, and possibly causing issues for the national side, purely forthe Dragons own financial gain.

3) The Dragons do not seem to have much of a youth policy, a number of the young-guns that they are praised for are not Dragons products and are cast-offs from the other regions.

As I have said these are not my own opinions, however if there are enough people who share these opinions in the same place a simple dislike for how things are done with regards the Dragons can rapidly get out of hand.

Think point one is very fair,
Dragons would be the ones with most to lose.

It depends is there share of the £6million for international players only?

If it is then central contracts would be fair, if its for international players but also for sticking to the NWQ limits and having teams of mostly WQ players then you can see dragons and the regions have a point in rejecting it. As they would be agreeing to limit NWQ players for no gain if they went down the central contracts route.

Think the WRU will have to reconsider and offer to use the £6million for central contracts, but also pay the regions extra for agreeing to squads with NQW limits as well.

maestegmafia wrote:As an entity the Dragons should find it easier to attract a sponsor or benefactor than some of the other regions with such a loyal fan base.

The dragons are a very passionately supported club, good stadium, great atmosphere. Everyone loves a trip to the RP.

The main problem for the Dragons is the facilities are no where near what the other regions have off the pitch. Players can't train as well as their competition.

Facilities are an issue definitely but the Dragons have the significant barrier of the WRU part-ownership to contend with which makes attracting investment so much harder than for the other regions.

Stone - has anyone tried to buy the WRU out, or try to sell the rest off to them?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Stone - has anyone tried to buy the WRU out, or try to sell the rest off to them?

A few years back a 'consortium' approached the WRU led by Steve Lewis. Hazell recognised this as the attempt by the WRU to attain full ownership that is was and rightfully told them to Foxtrot Oscar. Apart from that, no. This despite the likes of Pooler frittering away a fortune on their recent legal case. It's the major reason why anyone on about the Dragons leaving Gwent out is talking BS, as the nominal value of the WRU share is a pound, yet none of the 'rest of Gwent' has been interested in taking it on in the last decade. As we have seen from Chairman Roger's recent outbursts against the regions the end game of the WRU is the ownership of the pro teams so I doubt they would sell anyway. I refuse to believe a businessman of Tony Brown's success has not at least tried to buy the 50% share and allow the region to take control of it's destiny.

I always believed that Dragons would be the ones that could become closest to a region. The 50% WRU share means that the other clubs in Gwent can buy into it, and I doubt the WRU would ask a big price for say 25% ownership of Dragons.

A consortium of all the other clubs in Gwent could look at buying the WRU share, or part of it and have a say in th eregion and the running off it, and where Dragons players are placed in Prem teams etc etc,

The fact that none of the clubs in Gwent have (and I don't accept financeial reasons, as 10 years is plenty of time to plan, save, raise loan ad payback the nessary finances)tried to buy all or at least part of the WRU share, means that the clubs in Gwent (even if the fans are not) are very happy with Newports running of the region, and do not want to become activatly involved.

The WRU's share could be a blessing for Dragons, as the WRU may invest money in Dragons, as they will not be forced to pay extra money to them for th erelease of international player. If a fall out between the WRU and regions occured Dragons may be the ones to benefit.

Imagine if the regions wanted more money for player release, the WRU could say they are not giving the regions any more funds, and instead redirect the £6 million a year into Dragons and try and bring ht eWelsh players there, until the other regions ceded part owership to WRU?

Kingshu wrote:I always believed that Dragons would be the ones that could become closest to a region. The 50% WRU share means that the other clubs in Gwent can buy into it, and I doubt the WRU would ask a big price for say 25% ownership of Dragons.

A consortium of all the other clubs in Gwent could look at buying the WRU share, or part of it and have a say in th eregion and the running off it, and where Dragons players are placed in Prem teams etc etc,

The fact that none of the clubs in Gwent have (and I don't accept financeial reasons, as 10 years is plenty of time to plan, save, raise loan ad payback the nessary finances)tried to buy all or at least part of the WRU share, means that the clubs in Gwent (even if the fans are not) are very happy with Newports running of the region, and do not want to become activatly involved.

The WRU's share could be a blessing for Dragons, as the WRU may invest money in Dragons, as they will not be forced to pay extra money to them for th erelease of international player. If a fall out between the WRU and regions occured Dragons may be the ones to benefit.

Imagine if the regions wanted more money for player release, the WRU could say they are not giving the regions any more funds, and instead redirect the £6 million a year into Dragons and try and bring ht eWelsh players there, until the other regions ceded part owership to WRU?

Kingshu,

You're exactly right. The 50% share held by the WRu is technically held in trust for one the other clubs, as it was given up by Ebbw Vale. The value of those shares is nominally £1, so there is very little preventing any Gwent club from doing so. The fact is, in ten years none of them have bothered, despite half the so-called rugby community of Gwent despising the 'Newport' superclub and feeling desperately left out of the picture. Rightly or wrongly it is fair to say only one club is putting their money where their mouth is in that argument.

I would like to think Gwent is the most obvious region, but as it is the most parochial (with I think the most individual clubs), I doubt we will ever be united. We are like a microcosm of the old Welsh club set up, with bitterness and spite between clubs preventing the benefit of all.

That being said the main stumbling block is the WRU, and Roger Lewis will give an interview that does not include something in management speak before they actually invest in a region. They have proved time and again they do not care diddly-squat about the health of the pro game despite being it's custodians and primary beneficiaries. I think they would be quite happy to fold the four pro teams, put all the money into the academies and/or Premiership, and see the national team run on something like the Argentina model.

The Blues have won the Amlin ,they may be struggling at the moment but a season or two and they will be back up there about's,
but i bet Dragons will still be well below average

viewtothegym wrote:The Blues have won the Amlin ,they may be struggling at the moment but a season or two and they will be back up there about's,
but i bet Dragons will still be well below average

The Blues have won the Amlin, however that was under a different coach, with a fair amount of players that are no longer part of the setup. Newport beat NZ so there!

It all depends on how far th eBlues fall if they are able to rebuild, you have be left with 2 good regions and 2 poor ones.

Scarlets fell and have risen, due mostly to good management and a good crop of young players that came through if Blues don't have the same quality of player coming through, and we know limited money to reciut they may end up as a mid table team.

viewtothegym wrote:The Blues have won the Amlin ,they may be struggling at the moment but a season or two and they will be back up there about's,
but i bet Dragons will still be well below average

Yeah right. The Blues are heading to where the Dragons are. They won't be able to keep their internationals and better players, and won't be able to recruit squad members of equal calibre to replace them. Scarlets will be next then the Ospreys. As it is between the WRU and the Rabo the pro game is unsustainable.

Ive always said if the Regions want to compete they need the WRU to back them as much as the IRFU back the Provinces.

Ok the regions use benefactors, but they are not putting in the same resourses with the WRU to match the provinces, they need the WRU to help but they will have to concede as well.

I'd say that the Provinces make more in sponsorship and gates than the regions do, add in that they get more from IRFU than regions do from WRU + benefactor. Means that the regions have to make that up to be on equal terms, and I don't really see how they can do it.

Of course better funding from WRU would hopefully lead to better teams, which is more attractive to fans and a winning team is what sponsors want to be linked with and pay extra for, but what would make the WRU offer more?

Also the additional funds the WRU offer would have to come from somewhere. The IRFU don't give as much support to the Ulster bank All-Ireland league, as the WRU do the Welsh Prem. Would fans be happy to see funds redirected from Welsh Prem into the Regions?

IMO if the regions want to match the top level in Europe the WRU will have to get behind them, and the Wesh prem declines. I don't think Wales can currenlty have strong regions and same level domestic league. It's getting to the point where the WRU decised which one it wants.

Maybe in future when regions have built better facilites, they acadamies are running well, the gates have increased, and sponsorship, some of the funds could be redirected to the Welsh Prem.

The Wru basically want to be Wale's 5th region with control of all the best players.

Ospreys can't play Tonga because of 'player burn out' yet the WRU shove in a couple of extra International dates every year.

I guess the point the Dragons may be making by being most vocal/against central contracts could be to do with what they lose. In a bizarre and twisted turn of events, as we provide the least to the national cause we're likely to be penalised the most by central contracts. We would lose an equal share of £6m but would only lose the wage bill of 2 players (Lydiate and Faletau), so in real terms it would cost us more than any other region. Or to put it another way, if the Ospreys were to have 10 of their players centrally contracted (highly likely), compared to our 2, then they'd have 10 large contracts off their pay roll so the loss of the funding wouldn't make much difference. In fact, their 10 or so internationals would cost far more than the £1.5m the WRU currently give each region so they may actually be better off. Whereas Toby and Dan probably 'only' cost us £400,000 max but we'd lose £1.5m. So, under central contracts the WRU funding would be cut and Dragons may have to foot the bill for a 28 players (using a fictitious 30 man squad) while the Ospryes would only have to foot the bill for 20 out of a 30 man squad.

That's my possible answer to why the Dragons may be most against it.

Griff wrote:I guess the point the Dragons may be making by being most vocal/against central contracts could be to do with what they lose. In a bizarre and twisted turn of events, as we provide the least to the national cause we're likely to be penalised the most by central contracts. We would lose an equal share of £6m but would only lose the wage bill of 2 players (Lydiate and Faletau), so in real terms it would cost us more than any other region. Or to put it another way, if the Ospreys were to have 10 of their players centrally contracted (highly likely), compared to our 2, then they'd have 10 large contracts off their pay roll so the loss of the funding wouldn't make much difference. In fact, their 10 or so internationals would cost far more than the £1.5m the WRU currently give each region so they may actually be better off. Whereas Toby and Dan probably 'only' cost us £400,000 max but we'd lose £1.5m. So, under central contracts the WRU funding would be cut and Dragons may have to foot the bill for a 28 players (using a fictitious 30 man squad) while the Ospryes would only have to foot the bill for 20 out of a 30 man squad.

That's my possible answer to why the Dragons may be most against it.

Add to that the ammount the Regions are currently spending on squad wages.

Scarlets and Blues are reputed to be within the £3.5M salary cap, the Ospreys have agreed a dispensation for them to exceed the cap due the number of players who are locked into contracts. The Dragons however are aparently can only afford in the region of £2M. So a loss of £1.5M funding would leave them only £500k to pay for 30 plus players!

I suspect that the solution will be some form of dual contract, where the WRU pay to keep players in Wales and pay for the time that they are away with team Wales. This must be linked with an increase in funding for the Regions as the WRU are still relying on the generosity of the benefactors to keep professional rugby in Wales and to keep the stars of the Welsh side in Wales and available for training and aditional games. Without it a greater share of the pot the Regions will cease to exist.

This is the lowest that the Dragons have been and I think it's going to get worse still. I can honestly see us finishing below Zebre. Who do the people in the know blame? The board. Paul Turner was tweeting on Friday nightabout the board and although they sacked him so you'd think he'd have it in for them. He's right. Edwards has been the cheap option. I don't really want to get on his case. I think it is time for him to go, but in terms of selection, he's picking from what he's got. We simply have a front 5 that would struggle in the Prem. Even the Blues and Scarlets took us apart. One of the tries in Glasgow came from a scrum against the head. This was followed by quite comical defending. I couldn't catch the tries on Scrum V but they were repeated on You've been framed. Three have to be seen to be believed. When I listen to Edwards speak, I want to shake him and scream, Where's your spirit? Where's your fight? He's like a mouse!! That's what's upsetting the fans!
The board have got away with a hell of a lot. They've got about 4000 hardcore fans that they know will always turn up. They've had coaches like Turner who've helped the Dragons punch above their weight. We've never achieved anything but we've never been a walkover like we are now. We've enjoyed many memorable nights, beating teams that we had no right to.
Our only hope this season, is picking up a few home wins during the internationals when opponents are depleted. I can't see us winning in Zebre. We have no set-piece. We have the worst front 5 in Europe and although we have pace outside, it simply doesn't matter if you have kids playing half- back and are being asked to control a game, when they're getting awful ball. I feel sorry for the younger lads. Confidence must be at an all-time low.

The person who said that the Blues have just more win is correct, the Blues are slightly less awful as the derby match proved. The skill levels were a disgrace and so worrying when these two regions in theory should be supplying half the Welsh squad!

there is definitely more positives from the blues at the moment than the dragons...

in the second half against Leinster they actually played some good stuff while they were unlucky against Munster with only silly mistakes to blame for the loss...

as ive said the dragons players look like rabbits in the headlights every time they step on the pitch

The Blues do have a stronger squad. Even without their current welsh players, there's still caps in their squad, even Sweeney!

Hand on heart I think the WRU are lineing them up for closure.

RGC are already pulling 1,500 fans in through the gates for games in division 1 East in the Welsh national leagues.

Shifty wrote:Hand on heart I think the WRU are lineing them up for closure.

RGC are already pulling 1,500 fans in through the gates for games in division 1 East in the Welsh national leagues.

I've thought that's why they've been holding on to the 50% for some time.

Stone Motif wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:The Blues have won the Amlin ,they may be struggling at the moment but a season or two and they will be back up there about's,
but i bet Dragons will still be well below average

Yeah right. The Blues are heading to where the Dragons are. They won't be able to keep their internationals and better players, and won't be able to recruit squad members of equal calibre to replace them. Scarlets will be next then the Ospreys. As it is between the WRU and the Rabo the pro game is unsustainable.

Weren't the Ospreys the next Scarlets to begin with?

Stone Motif wrote:

Shifty wrote:Hand on heart I think the WRU are lineing them up for closure.

RGC are already pulling 1,500 fans in through the gates for games in division 1 East in the Welsh national leagues.

I've thought that's why they've been holding on to the 50% for some time.

I don't think the WRU would dare to try a trick like that again. They are more reliant on the regions than they make out, and they need to keep them on side, and whilst there is healthy banter, and sometimes a dislike, toward each other I think the other three regions would not stand by an watch the WRU make that mistake again.

Also the WRU surely would not be so stupid as to recreate the issues that have seen us lose so many fans, supposedly, due to disenfranchisement etc.

Look, I've been a Dragons fan and season ticket holder since inception, and before that I held a Newport RFC season ticket for a number of years. I've lost so much faith in the region over the last few years that this season has been the first one that I've not got a season ticket (having a two year old doesn't help either, but that's not a huge factor: I can work around that). Yes, I'm part of the problem but to be honest I'm being turned off rugby altogether. I am normally a huge rugby fan, I read every scrap of rugby news, both domestic and foreign, I post on internet forums, I hold season tickets, go to internationals, travel abroad to support my team (on occasion), etc., etc. But lately I've become sick of it. It's draining watching/supporting a damp squib. Glory supporter? Nah, I've never seen any glory. Maybe the SWALEC cup win by Newport v Neath around 2001. But that's it. It has never stoped me renewing my ticket and giving my all as a supporter. But this time it's somehow different. The once 'bear pit'-esque Rodney Parade even seems lifeless. The players put out some training ground moves, some training ground tackles, get beaten, go home. The fans reciprocate with some half hearted chants and support and go home too. There's something changed lately at the Dragons, and I think that may be the realisation deep down that our time is limited. Maybe behind closed doors it has been discussed? Maybe the PriceWaterhouseCooper report suggests we disband? Who knows. But the impressions that the players and coaches give is one of resigned defeat, and that's brushing off on the fans too, me included.

It pains me to say it, but if they were to disband the Dragons I wouldn't be too heart broken. In truth, we're always trying to play catch up to the other regions but never really getting anywhere. The reality is that, while I'm all for central contracts, if the WRU brings them in then I think that could be a final nail in the coffin for the Dragons either in terms of catching the others or in terms of plans to close us down. No way are the WRU going to have central contracts and then 'send' some players to the Dragons to play in the Amlin. Not a chance. They'll obviously and understandably want their centrally contracted players playing in the HC, right? Not sure where they'll stand if the Pro12 HC qualification idea comes in as that will be a risk, but as it stands I just can't see the Dragons having/'hosting' any centrally contracted players. That means no Welsh 'stars' at the region. That in turn suggests either Welsh journeymen, but what's the point in them as they're going nowhere, or it suggests that the Dragons will be filled with up'n'coming talent which = development region. While it might be nice to catch the odd game, I wouldn't buy a season ticket to an U20's club. But that's just me.

The other alternative is that RGC gets the 4th region spot and they take on the development tag. I wouldn't begrudge them that. It's an area of untapped talent that has been ignored for too long so a region there would open up another 3rd of Wales to pro rugby and ease the congestion in the south.

The obvious question from people will be: "If the Dragons closes will you go and support the Blues as your closest region". Not a chance. But that's nothing to do with 'parochialism', nothing to do with them being some sort of 'enemy', nothing to do with the 15 mile journey or the Friday night kick offs. It's more to do with having no ties to Cardiff/their region and no interest in them apart from them being a welsh team. I'll be happy to go back to watch Newport in the Welsh prem to be honest. People will think that this is ridiculous, but in reality is it any different than someone from Oldham supporting Oldham Athletic in League 1 football rather than Man Utd in the premiership? I always see posters on here calling for fans to support the pro team, support the region, but what is wrong with supporting your local side? Supporting the grass roots? If you have the time and money to do both then great, but I don't see anything wrong with supporting Bonymaen in the 2nd division if that's where your heart lies, or Mountain Ash, or Usk even. And that's why regional rugby is not that well supported in Wales in my opinion - we're expecting people to support things, to gravitate towards the pro game jut because it's the pro game, when they may just be happy to support their local side. And that's what I'll be doing if pro rugby leaves Gwent.

Griff - if the Dragons fans have dawned on a realisation that the region is going to be no more is that not even more of a reason to stand up united as one and fight for its existance? If you all just put your tails between your legs and go hide under hte table then your asking for them to close you.

I think the problem with Dragons is hope.

I've supported Ulster for a long time, and during our bad days I remember telling people that they should come with me to games as we are building a good team for 4/5 years time, so there was always that belief that it would turn around, Likewise Scarlets durning their poor spell, they were bringing youngsters through and fans had hope for the future with these players. Munster fans would currently be in this group, looking at a team in a year or two that could be on top of Europe again.

Dragons fans they don't have this hope, they don't see a realistic chance that Ulster and Scarlets fans had, that one day thier team would be back at the top end of the table. For Dragon fans they see that it's going to be the same struggle year in year out for the forseeable future.

Something needs to change to give these fans hope again that something is biulding in the region, that they are building up to a team that may be able to challange for silverware or be in the running.

A celtic Ranfurly Shield I think would help, as if they won it, it would add a boost to th eregion and a few defensives would boost the team and moral of Gwent.

I don't see a way Dragons are going to rise, as to be honest their great rivals Connacht and even beginging to leave them behind.

Well, the attendances haven't really dropped since I left, so it's perhpas only me that's putting my 'tail between my legs and hiding under a table'. The other fans are still plodding along.

My point is that the air of uncertainty is doing nothing for the players, coaches or fans. The WRU should make their intentions clear ASAP so people know where they stand. No wonder we're not signing players - if you don't know that you'll be around in a couple of years then you can't really offer contracts. I can only speak for myself, but it just feels like it's in limbo down at the Dragons, and that makes it very hard to plan for the future.

Kingshu - To be honest the Blues are the team that I am more worried about with hope being in short supply. They have traditionally, even before professionalism, always survived by being the team where the money was, beignt he big city side. With regionalism the chances of them being able to buy up and poach high quality talent started to slide. The move to the CCS was a flop, and they started to us the 'we miss CAP, we play well there' excuse, and now they have moved things have not improved they are running our of excuses and are dropping.

Griff - hiding under the table may have been a bad way of putting it. From outside it looked like the Dragons have made some good signings over the summer, your backs are IMO up there with most of the other regions, and it is your pack that will need addressing next, probably over the summer this year, which will put you in good stead for being competitive.

I can see what you mean about the WRU should make their intentions clear, but has anyone come out and asked them 'are you planning on closing the Dragons'? If nobody has put that question to them they may think their intentions are clear as they are still holding onto the ownership, and putting in money (albeit next to nothing in comparison to the size of their wallet).

I'd agree that Blues fans may start losing that hope, as they are normally one of the bigger teams and a drop to being a mid-table team would affect them, Dragons fans would like to be a midtable team again.

with Blues and Dragons they don't seam to be building for the future, but surviving at present, and fans don't latch on to teams that are just surviving.

Like I said earlier WRU will have to decide between regions and Welsh prem as they can't have regions among top teams in Europe and a strong Welsh Prem, like they would wish at present.
Think they can have one or the other, and they have to decide which they are putting resources into at the expense of the other. Current levels will see regional decline.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Kingshu - To be honest the Blues are the team that I am more worried about with hope being in short supply. They have traditionally, even before professionalism, always survived by being the team where the money was, beignt he big city side. With regionalism the chances of them being able to buy up and poach high quality talent started to slide. The move to the CCS was a flop, and they started to us the 'we miss CAP, we play well there' excuse, and now they have moved things have not improved they are running our of excuses and are dropping.

Griff - hiding under the table may have been a bad way of putting it. From outside it looked like the Dragons have made some good signings over the summer, your backs are IMO up there with most of the other regions, and it is your pack that will need addressing next, probably over the summer this year, which will put you in good stead for being competitive.

I can see what you mean about the WRU should make their intentions clear, but has anyone come out and asked them 'are you planning on closing the Dragons'? If nobody has put that question to them they may think their intentions are clear as they are still holding onto the ownership, and putting in money (albeit next to nothing in comparison to the size of their wallet).

No, no one has come out and said we're being shut down. But there is still the air if uncertainty. We'd be the obvious ones to go if a restructure was to happen. And, with central contracts almost a certainty in some form, it is unlikely that the WRU will keep any of their newly aquired assets in the Amlin cup.

Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but until the regions are told that you will not be touched then it is difficult to make a business plan for the way forward. Isn't there a date coming up in the next few years that essentially allows the WRU to make changes to regions if they want? I remember Roger Lewis saying something like 'the regions have our full backing for the length of the (original) agreement ending in x year'. I think year 'x' is coming up.

One thing with the Dragons is it was always going to be hard for them, firstly the 2 biggest clubs in Welsh rugby were Cardiff and Swansea, in their regional areas Cardiff were always able to farm the better players off Pontypridd, and Bridgend. While Swansea always had Neath and Aberavon to get their players from. Llanelli were always basicaly a region even before regionalism and always represented Dyfed.

Newport on the other hand were never really bigger than Pontypool, Ebbw Vale, Caerphilly, NewBridge, Cross Keys, Abertillery etc. Gwent always had a lot of big strong clubs who were very even. Newport is the biggest town (now city) in Gwent at the time of regionalism were lucky enough to have Tony Bown as a benefactor.

But certainly in my life time apart from the benefactor era they were normally scrimping aroung the bottom end of the Welsh Premiership. They are a big prestigious Welsh club, but they were not in the bracket with Llanelli, Cardiff and Swansea, it's fairer to say they were in the bracket with Bridgend, Pontypridd, Pontypool etc.

Also when the clubs did merge it was done with the 2 most successful clubs in a region at the time for the most part, Neath and Swansea being a good example, playing in Black, and it Neath t start with before moving to a new stadium in Swansea, it basically allowed the fans to come together, and eventually Bridgend fell into the region and the Ospreys have invested heavily in the area and promoted themselves.

The Dragons merged with Ebbw Vale, who fell away quickly, it was going to be nearly impossible for the Dragons to bring in teams like Pontypool. You have to wonder if the Dragons region has really grown, a section of their fans refuse to support them because their not Newport anymore while they haven't made any real attempt to take the Dragons around their region to promote it. Without Tony Brown's money you'd have to say the Dragons are not in good shape.

Shifty wrote:One thing with the Dragons is it was always going to be hard for them, firstly the 2 biggest clubs in Welsh rugby were Cardiff and Swansea, in their regional areas Cardiff were always able to farm the better players off Pontypridd, and Bridgend. While Swansea always had Neath and Aberavon to get their players from. Llanelli were always basicaly a region even before regionalism and always represented Dyfed.

Newport on the other hand were never really bigger than Pontypool, Ebbw Vale, Caerphilly, NewBridge, Cross Keys, Abertillery etc. Gwent always had a lot of big strong clubs who were very even. Newport is the biggest town (now city) in Gwent at the time of regionalism were lucky enough to have Tony Bown as a benefactor.

But certainly in my life time apart from the benefactor era they were normally scrimping aroung the bottom end of the Welsh Premiership. They are a big prestigious Welsh club, but they were not in the bracket with Llanelli, Cardiff and Swansea, it's fairer to say they were in the bracket with Bridgend, Pontypridd, Pontypool etc.

Also when the clubs did merge it was done with the 2 most successful clubs in a region at the time for the most part, Neath and Swansea being a good example, playing in Black, and it Neath t start with before moving to a new stadium in Swansea, it basically allowed the fans to come together, and eventually Bridgend fell into the region and the Ospreys have invested heavily in the area and promoted themselves.

The Dragons merged with Ebbw Vale, who fell away quickly, it was going to be nearly impossible for the Dragons to bring in teams like Pontypool. You have to wonder if the Dragons region has really grown, a section of their fans refuse to support them because their not Newport anymore while they haven't made any real attempt to take the Dragons around their region to promote it. Without Tony Brown's money you'd have to say the Dragons are not in good shape.

Exactly right for the most part. Gwent has the most clubs and players but will forever be divided. That last paragraph is total bollacks tho. The Dragons have made as much effort to attract supporters as the other regions and Tony Brown doesn't invest in the Dragons, he only spends money on Rodney Parade.

Griff, you must take a little comfort that the PricewaterhouseCooper report, says going down to 3 regions would be a bad idea.

Mind you I don't know if Dragons are safe.

You said that if Dragons were closed you would happily go back to suppporting Newport in Welsh Prem, and wouldn't support Cardiff blues who would be your region then.

But what if to make way for RGC1404, Cardiff Blues were merged with Dragons. Say 50% ownership each, creating a region like Ospreys with two main clubs?

Say Blue Dragons, games split between Cardiff and Newport, big games Mill Stad? Would you support this team or go back to following Newport instead?

Alyn,

They've done enough to take the Dragons around the region. You and others have seen enough examples of this previously, including the most recent examples of the open training sessions and the fact that they have played games around the region. If people choose to still see them as Newport, then that's their choice and nothing is going to alter that.

I happen to know that Mike Ruddock alienated quite a few Ebbw Vale players and supporters when the Dragons were first set up, as he promised certain players contracts which never materialised.

I am disappointed with the way this season has gone, but if we had beaten the Blues, we would be in a far healthier position. In theory, we have also got two of our hardest games out of the way (Leinster and Munster away) so things should improve, but I feel like Edwards and others have lost the changing room now. I don't agree with those who say the atmosphere has gone from the terrace, as it hasn't really. Supporters have lost heart yeah, but then we are still taking our usual number to Bath (for a game we probably won't do well in) and we will still do our bit on the terrace. If only the players had the same attitude as us.

What about you as well Risca Rev, as well as Griff

what if to make way for RGC1404, Cardiff Blues were merged with Dragons. Say 50% ownership each, creating a region like Ospreys with two main clubs?

Say Blue Dragons, games split between Cardiff and Newport, big games Mill Stad? Would you support this team or go back to following Newport instead?

Blue Dragons would lose those who want to watch Newport or Cardiff, but may create a region, and have a better chance of building a silverware contending team?