England v Aus - KO 14:30 Sat 17th NOV at HQ - Match Thread/Build Up etc....

by HERSH Sat 10 Nov 2012, 4:51 pm

Feel free to discuss this game and any other aspect involving the England Rugby team good or bad as your opinions count and you won't be judged (by me) if you go against England, but do try to give a reason!

Please respect other posters opinions Hug

Game 1: Eng v Fiji
Game 2: Eng v Aus
Game 3: Eng v SA
Game 4: Eng v NZ

England team to face Australia:

Alex Goode
Chris Ashton
Manusamoa Tuilagi
Brad Barritt
Charlie Sharples
Toby Flood
Danny Care
Joe Marler
Tom Youngs,
Dan Cole
Tom Palmer
Geoff Parling
Tom Johnson,
Chris Robshaw
Thomas Waldrom
Replacements: David Paice
David Wilson
Mako Vunipola
Joe Launchbury
Tom Wood
Ben Youngs
Owen Farrell
Mike Brown

by Duty281 Sat 10 Nov 2012, 5:05 pm

England to edge out Australia in a tight game. I think England will win the battle at the scrum and at the lineout and that's where the game will be settled if England kick well. Also, England's defence has enough about them to stifle the Aussies creativity and then England can hit back with their own firepower in the backs. The 82,000 home crowd will be a massive boost, England will roll with the momentum and win by 5-10 points.

by EnglishReign Sat 10 Nov 2012, 5:10 pm

Morgan in for Waldrom, Ashton back in for Monye.

by robshaw4england Sat 10 Nov 2012, 5:26 pm

15. Goode
14. Ashton
13. Tuilagi
12. Barritt
11. Sharples
10. Flood
09. Care

08. Waldrom
07. Robshaw
06. Wood
05. Parling
04. Launchberry
03. Cole
02. Youngs
01. Marler

16. Paice
17. Vunipola
18. Wilson
19. Palmer
20. Haskell
21. Youngs
22. Burns
23. Brown

*Don't get me wrong I rate Tom Johnson, however at test rugby level I personally don't think he cuts it right at the top level. Wood played well when he came on and made the balance of back row a little more even, I'd like to see Haskell's explosive power from the bench disrupt the Wallabies late on.

*Burns deserves to be on the bench, Farrell is a solid defender, but he isn't ready to manage and create things for the outside backs.

*Brown keeps his spot ahead of Joseph who has returned from injury, simply because his form has been absolutely outstanding. Very unlucky to have Goode chosen ahead of him, who had an absolute stormer today.

*Launchberry similarly impressed me when he came on today, and I would like to see how he goes from the start.

*Sharples outplayed Monye today and should shift to the left wing.

by gregortree Sat 10 Nov 2012, 5:27 pm

Ashton is normally right wing ? so does Lancs have a reason to drop Sharples ? no not really, Sharps had a great game. Monye was ok but not brilliant. So could see a Sharples / Ashton wing paring, with Ashton on the Left in in place of Monye.
I am a Glos fan, but thought Waldrom had a good game for England today, albeit the odd fumble / knock on. Might be difficult to justify dropping Waldrom.
Tom Youngs had a brill debut too.

by Duty281 Sat 10 Nov 2012, 5:31 pm

Keep things simple, Ashton in for Monye should be the only change. I thought Waldrom played quite well today.

by HERSH Sat 10 Nov 2012, 6:26 pm

To be fair Aus will be a little step up from Fiji, I'd start with Morgan over Waldrom

by EngInAuck Sat 10 Nov 2012, 6:37 pm

Is there any possible way that Ashton , Sharples and Monye can be in the 23 man squad ?

Sharples defiantly had the better game but he was given was more opportunities in space.

Monye preformed really well with the opportunities that he was given , he defiantly made his presence felt when he eventually got the ball . I feel he was abit unlucky to throw the pass tat led to the Fijian try , any other team wouldn't have come close to scoring off that.

Ashton has to come into the darting team , but I can't help thinking Sharples basically offers near enough the same thing , where as Monye if need be can be more direct.

by **LondonTiger** Sat 10 Nov 2012, 6:49 pm

robshaw4england wrote:*Don't get me wrong I rate Tom Johnson, however at test rugby level I personally don't think he cuts it right at the top level. Wood played well when he came on and made the balance of back row a little more even,

I completely and utterly disagree. Johnson was absoulutely everywhere today. He was magnificent in the lineout and fantastic at the breakdown. His cover running constantly cut down the space when fiji had the ball. Without him we would have gone behind during that shaky start. Wood was appreciably slower and less powerfull.

I would swap:

Ashton for Monye - who seemed to want to run into people rather than at space.
Morgan for Waldrom - Waldrom did well enough, but Morgan is the future and as good as Waldrom now.
Launchbury to start with Palmer on the bench.

by EnglishReign Sat 10 Nov 2012, 7:00 pm

EngInAuck wrote:Is there any possible way that Ashton , Sharples and Monye can be in the 23 man squad ?

Sharples defiantly had the better game but he was given was more opportunities in space.

Monye preformed really well with the opportunities that he was given , he defiantly made his presence felt when he eventually got the ball . I feel he was abit unlucky to throw the pass tat led to the Fijian try , any other team wouldn't have come close to scoring off that.

Ashton has to come into the darting team , but I can't help thinking Sharples basically offers near enough the same thing , where as Monye if need be can be more direct.

Why put Monye in at all though? I'm sorry, but he is so average and relies too much on his physical game. Sharples was causing trouble all over the park.

I wouldn't say he had more opportunities either, Monye completely butchered some good chances in space - one led to the first Fiji try.

by maverickmak Sat 10 Nov 2012, 7:34 pm

I'd only definitely bring in Ashton for Monye. Monye did pretty well though.

I'd toy with the idea of bringing in Ben Youngs and Haskell (at 6), but other than that, I think I'd give these players a shot.

Waldrom made mistakes, uncharacteristic ones, but that shouldn't happen 2 games in a row, but boy he got through an enormous amount of work. Our hardest (all round) working forward.

by mystiroakey Sat 10 Nov 2012, 7:42 pm

big england win for me!

by HERSH Sat 10 Nov 2012, 7:44 pm

by maverickmak Sat 10 Nov 2012, 9:47 pm

Dan Cole will be licking his lips methinks!

by majesticimperialman Sat 10 Nov 2012, 10:03 pm

Having just watched the France v Australia game, i dont think that England have mutch to worry about.

Having said that, England cannot afford to be complacent. Just because france won does not make i.t a sure thing that England will win.

by ME-109 Sat 10 Nov 2012, 10:05 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Having just watched the France v Australia game, i dont think that England have mutch to worry about.

Having said that, England cannot afford to be complacent. Just because france won does not make i.t a sure thing that England will win.

England have nothing to worry about cos France won...but cant be complacent because France won???? Great analysis.... Erm

by Hood83 Sun 11 Nov 2012, 12:15 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
robshaw4england wrote:*Don't get me wrong I rate Tom Johnson, however at test rugby level I personally don't think he cuts it right at the top level. Wood played well when he came on and made the balance of back row a little more even,

I completely and utterly disagree. Johnson was absoulutely everywhere today. He was magnificent in the lineout and fantastic at the breakdown. His cover running constantly cut down the space when fiji had the ball. Without him we would have gone behind during that shaky start. Wood was appreciably slower and less powerfull.

I would swap:

Ashton for Monye - who seemed to want to run into people rather than at space.
Morgan for Waldrom - Waldrom did well enough, but Morgan is the future and as good as Waldrom now.
Launchbury to start with Palmer on the bench.

Johnson was, as he always is, busy. A large part of this is doing valuable work as you point out...but a large part is not. He never, ever, knocks a man back in the tackle, he only carries well in the loose and he affects few turnovers. I'm not saying Wood is a better bet, but Johnson is not abrasive enough in the tight for me. Against better packs Johnson's work rate and eagerness don't make up for his lack of size and power. If Haskell ever got back to last year's 6N form i'm be tempted to pick him, sadly at the moment his form looks very average.

Agree with your changes though, and hell, i'd even go with Launchbury!

by **Biltong** Sun 11 Nov 2012, 12:19 pm

HERSH wrote:

Please respect other posters opinions

Nice one Hersh

by **Biltong** Sun 11 Nov 2012, 12:22 pm

Difficulty with calling this match is , how much can be taken out of the English win yesterday?

The longer that match went in the worse Fiji got.

australia on the ither hand has been really inconsistent in their performances this year.

Will have to think about it.

by Hood83 Sun 11 Nov 2012, 12:33 pm

Biltong wrote:Difficulty with calling this match is , how much can be taken out of the English win yesterday?

The longer that match went in the worse Fiji got.

australia on the ither hand has been really inconsistent in their performances this year.

Will have to think about it.

I think are lot of people are using the French game as a measure. I think this is a mistake.

How often has an Oz side performed poorly twice in a row? That includes in the scrum. Yes, we might get the upper hand there, but I'm certain it won't be the dominance the French enjoyed.

by HammerofThunor Sun 11 Nov 2012, 12:40 pm

I've a feeling we'll lose this one. Our scrum was completely dominant against and we were completely unable to use it if a penalty wasn't given straight away. We pretty much always batter Australia in the scrum and they still often beat us. Granted we've beat them the last twice we played them but that was 2 years ago now.

If we step up massively we'll be capable of winning (or if they have a shocker)

by EnglishReign Sun 11 Nov 2012, 12:47 pm

A downbeat Aussie team, Ashton back in, memories of 2010 and the 80,000+ Twickenham roar. You really think we'll lose?

by HammerofThunor Sun 11 Nov 2012, 12:51 pm

A downbeat Aussie team (fired up following a shaming from France), Ashton back in (...where to start), memories of 2010 (that will fire them up and make us overconfident), 80000+ Twickenham raw (there are plenty of times that hasn't helped much has it? One win in Twickenham in around 6 years isn't it?).

So yeah, I think we can lose. Unsurprisingly it'll depend on how the teams play on the day (as always).

by Geordie Sun 11 Nov 2012, 1:14 pm

Start Morgan
Start Launchbury...

Keep the rest the same...

Johnson gets mixed reactions from people....jury still out for me.
I think we have better back rowers.

by majesticimperialman Sun 11 Nov 2012, 1:51 pm

In would bring Ashton in for Monya. Morgan for Waldrom,, and bring freddie Burns on the bench in stead of Owen Farrel.

by Big Sun 11 Nov 2012, 2:05 pm

EngInAuck wrote:Is there any possible way that Ashton , Sharples and Monye can be in the 23 man squad ?

Sharples defiantly had the better game but he was given was more opportunities in space.

Monye preformed really well with the opportunities that he was given , he defiantly made his presence felt when he eventually got the ball . I feel he was abit unlucky to throw the pass tat led to the Fijian try , any other team wouldn't have come close to scoring off that.

Ashton has to come into the darting team , but I can't help thinking Sharples basically offers near enough the same thing , where as Monye if need be can be more direct.

I thought the same watching that - it was a pure 7s try! Did show that Goode is lacking a bit of pace though for an international fullback though - I know the Fijians are generally quick, otherwise he did brilliantly but at that point he was in a leg race with their half backs and lost. Unless I'm being ignorant and they are in fact the quickest players in the team, that's not ideal.

Oh and perhaps it's poor memory on my part, but I thought it was Tuilagi that threw the pass?

by HammerofThunor Sun 11 Nov 2012, 2:13 pm

Just watched the brief highlights before the the Scotland game. Monye chucked it in field before being pushed into touch. It bounced about a bit before the Fijian scrum half got it and ran. Goode did get pulled back a little bit (but he was obstructing a little).

by EngInAuck Sun 11 Nov 2012, 8:08 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Just watched the brief highlights before the the Scotland game. Monye chucked it in field before being pushed into touch. It bounced about a bit before the Fijian scrum half got it and ran. Goode did get pulled back a little bit (but he was obstructing a little).

If my memory serves me well he was aiming to get the ball to Waldrum but a pesky Fijian got a hand to it to knock the ball out of its desired path.

I actually thought Barrit touched the ball down before the Fijian player , but i can understand why the officials awarded the try.

Perhaps start Sharples against Oz where its more likely to be an open game. And Bring Monye in for SA where he can add a bit of Muscle . Who knows , playing against the Green Jersey again may bring back soe of the From he showed in 09.

Why are we Cursed with so many good Wingers to Choose from furious

by maverickmak Sun 11 Nov 2012, 11:29 pm

I know people don't like Waldrom, and it wasn't his best game on Saturday, but looking at some of his stats from ESPN gives a different story: 13 passes, 17 carries, 48 metres, 2 defenders beaten, 2 offloads, 2 turnovers, 10 out of 11 tackles.

That is a shedload of work. If he can put that kind of shift in without overly impressing, then imagine what he could do on a good day. Worth sticking with for Aus I think.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sun 11 Nov 2012, 11:33 pm

maverickmak wrote:I know people don't like Waldrom, and it wasn't his best game on Saturday, but looking at some of his stats from ESPN gives a different story: 13 passes, 17 carries, 48 metres, 2 defenders beaten, 2 offloads, 2 turnovers, 10 out of 11 tackles.

That is a shedload of work. If he can put that kind of shift in without overly impressing, then imagine what he could do on a good day. Worth sticking with for Aus I think.

Exactly the kind of workmanlike performance that caused everyone to moan about Nick Easter for 4 years and Lancaster to refuse to pick him no matter how much more experienced, better, thinner ~~he is than Morgan~~ or english he is is than Waldrom

by ChequeredJersey Mon 12 Nov 2012, 12:48 am

This is where our back row gets judged and where we see how good our defence and groundwork really is. We should dominate the scrums but those are very ref dependent so a bit of a lottery. We will find the lineout much harder and I have no idea how we'll do in the breakdown. Robshaw was everywhere on Saturday and the stats (15 tackles, 1 miss, 13 carries for 30+ metres, 2 offloads, 1 assist, 1 Defender beaten) back this up, but we really want a repeat of his groundwork from the AP final and T1 in SA and this is the opposition that can test him in that area.

I'd like to keep the same 15 except maybe Monye for Ashton. As Brown is not going to start (and I think SA suits his style more anyway, though I'm interested to see how Goode's more defensive FB skills go against a more threatening opposition), send him back to Quins and please play a utility back! Otherwise same bench, though ideally I'd have Burns over Farrell.

by Big Mon 12 Nov 2012, 6:41 am

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
maverickmak wrote:I know people don't like Waldrom, and it wasn't his best game on Saturday, but looking at some of his stats from ESPN gives a different story: 13 passes, 17 carries, 48 metres, 2 defenders beaten, 2 offloads, 2 turnovers, 10 out of 11 tackles.

That is a shedload of work. If he can put that kind of shift in without overly impressing, then imagine what he could do on a good day. Worth sticking with for Aus I think.

Exactly the kind of workmanlike performance that caused everyone to moan about Nick Easter for 4 years and Lancaster to refuse to pick him no matter how much more experienced, better, thinner ~~he is than Morgan~~ or english he is is than Waldrom

I remember when Crane got a game for England and there were many bemoaning his performance afterwards. Didn't seem to matter that he'd actually made more tackles, yards, carries etc than anyone else at the time he went off. I think some people forget sometimes that you need balance, and you can't just go for the most explosive/quickest player in each position you need to get some grafters in as well.

by Big Mon 12 Nov 2012, 6:43 am

For those thinking that we should thrash Australia because France did - what happened the week after we thrashed Aus in 2010??

I do think we should be looking to win against Aus (and South Africa afterwards) but I don't think Aus will hand it to us on a plate!

by HERSH Mon 12 Nov 2012, 9:26 am

You'd be foolish for thinking they would, it should be a good game mo1

by beshocked Mon 12 Nov 2012, 9:37 am

I would bring in Launchbury for Palmer, Ashton for Monye (move Sharples to left wing,Ashton right wing), Morgan for Waldrom.

by EnglishReign Mon 12 Nov 2012, 9:40 am

Big wrote:For those thinking that we should thrash Australia because France did - what happened the week after we thrashed Aus in 2010??

Yeah, didn't they lose to Munster?

by EnglishReign Mon 12 Nov 2012, 9:40 am

beshocked wrote:I would bring in Launchbury for Palmer, Ashton for Monye (move Sharples to left wing,Ashton right wing), Morgan for Waldrom.

+1

by Big Mon 12 Nov 2012, 9:46 am

EnglishReign wrote:
Big wrote:For those thinking that we should thrash Australia because France did - what happened the week after we thrashed Aus in 2010??

Yeah, didn't they lose to Munster?

Alright, it was two weeks later - 59-16 win against France.

by HERSH Mon 12 Nov 2012, 11:44 am

Anyone else think Robshaw could get the Lions Captaincy?

by propdavid_london Mon 12 Nov 2012, 12:02 pm

beshocked wrote:I would bring in Launchbury for Palmer, Ashton for Monye (move Sharples to left wing,Ashton right wing), Morgan for Waldrom.

Good replacements beshocked - I would select the same.
I would keep the rest of the team consistent. Pehaps shuffle the bench slightly.

by propdavid_london Mon 12 Nov 2012, 12:04 pm

England musnt run away with itself.
That was an extremely clinical French team and Oz will be back with some big guns.
Ben Alexander, Pocock and Digby Ione will be available for selection.

by HERSH Mon 12 Nov 2012, 12:09 pm

I think SL wiil keep their feet on the ground.

I think it will be close, who's the Ref on Saturday?

by mystiroakey Mon 12 Nov 2012, 12:12 pm

nah it wont be close.. by the way is there anywhere to see this game in new york!

does anyone know!

by propdavid_london Mon 12 Nov 2012, 12:14 pm

Romain Poite for the Oz game

by propdavid_london Mon 12 Nov 2012, 12:15 pm

Welsh referee Nigel Owens will take charge of England against South Africa on November 24, while George Clancy, Ireland, will referee the final game against New Zealand

by EnglishReign Mon 12 Nov 2012, 12:35 pm

mystiroakey wrote:nah it wont be close.. by the way is there anywhere to see this game in new york!

does anyone know!

Was there a couple months back, try The Australian on West 38th (Pretty much Midtown). I know they were showing the 4N.

by Hood83 Mon 12 Nov 2012, 12:46 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
maverickmak wrote:I know people don't like Waldrom, and it wasn't his best game on Saturday, but looking at some of his stats from ESPN gives a different story: 13 passes, 17 carries, 48 metres, 2 defenders beaten, 2 offloads, 2 turnovers, 10 out of 11 tackles.

That is a shedload of work. If he can put that kind of shift in without overly impressing, then imagine what he could do on a good day. Worth sticking with for Aus I think.

Exactly the kind of workmanlike performance that caused everyone to moan about Nick Easter for 4 years and Lancaster to refuse to pick him no matter how much more experienced, better, thinner ~~he is than Morgan~~ or english he is is than Waldrom

No it isn't. Easter's carrying was always, generally, ok, but turnovers? He hit about 1 ruck a game about 3 minutes after the ball had been shipped. Big, strong, powerful guy with excellent hands and a good offload, but he was an absolute carthorse and way below the standard of his international rivals.

This is not me saying Waldrom is much better.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 12 Nov 2012, 1:46 pm

I hope youre not trying to suggest that Waldrom wins turnovers on a regular basis? Thsi is the guy whos own coach said he strugglesd to pick the ball up because his stomach gets in the way.

by mystiroakey Mon 12 Nov 2012, 1:48 pm

EnglishReign wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:nah it wont be close.. by the way is there anywhere to see this game in new york!

does anyone know!

Was there a couple months back, try The Australian on West 38th (Pretty much Midtown). I know they were showing the 4N.

cheers mate...

i will jot it on me map- actually i am staying very close to there

by Hood83 Mon 12 Nov 2012, 1:50 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:I hope youre not trying to suggest that Waldrom wins turnovers on a regular basis? Thsi is the guy whos own coach said he strugglesd to pick the ball up because his stomach gets in the way.

Ha, nope, hence my 'This is not me saying Waldrom is any good'. He can however, and in spite of his gut, run. A basic aspect of the game Easter's never mastered. I don't need or want Pierre Spies level of pace, just someone who's lack of pace doesn't mean he's a pointless bystander against teams that play at speed e.g. the Southern Hemisphere teams.

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