Ireland XV vs Fiji, Match Thread and Build-Up

[Notch]

First topic message reminder :

Looking ahead to this game, Eoin Reddan is a doubt apparently but there are no other new injury concerns. Ferris and O'Connell are confirmed out of this and next week.

I've already talked about the issue of this game not being considered a full international which can be found HERE and we should should probably try and keep discussion of that issue to the relevant thread.

I'm very much of the opinion that we should largely keep the same team. I don't see how wholesale changes are going to help prepare the firsts for Argentina. There should of course be a few tweaks (please put Earls back in the back three) but this team needs time on the pitch together. Of course, I think our problems run deeper than a lack of pitch time together but we're in a desperate situation here. We need to beat Argentina and this game has to be treated as a dry run for the week after.

[LeinsterFan4life]

I have to say, I don't think Kidney has been conservative with selection. He's tried to gradually phase out experienced players for newer guys. No, the problem is what he is or isn't telling the players to do.

I'm, sorry is the above a joke? The only time Kidney has ever been daring with selection really was just before the WC when he threw Murray in and wanted to do the same with F.Jones. Any other changes he has been forced into. Other than that I really don't know how you come to that conclusion. The centre positions are a testament to his conservatism.

The worst example is when he brought wallace over from his holiday to play NZ istead of playing Cave. If he never intended to play Cave, why didn't he just bring Wallace in the first place?

[Notch]

Yeah that was just borderline insane.

I don't think he's consistent enough in what he does to be characterised as conservative or progressive. It's like a Wheel of Fortune Selection policy sometimes.

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

Just say the IRFU do look at an overseas prospect... who are we looking at?

Don't know who is out there. There are obvious candidates like Joe Schmidt, Nick Mallett and Wayne Smith. Wayne Smith is unlikely to want to leave New Zealand. I have no idea of the availability or interest of Schmidt or Mallett. One from leftfield; Robbie Deans. Has endured a frustrating time in Australia and may be tempted by a new challenge.

But realistically the net should be cast wide and deep and I think the best candidate will be someone who surprises us, rather like Schmidt and Anscombe were surprises for their provincial fans when first unveiled. They need to first set out what they want from a coach and see who is available who best fits that bill. They need to avoid hiring on reputation and hoping his coaching philosophy meshes with the provinces and players.

Yes Notch I couldn't agree more about Deans and I'm glad someone else agrees with me on him. Deans is a fantastic coach. I know Australia were tanked at the weekend and have had a very mixed bag results wise over the last 18 months. I would be tremendously peed off if I was him with the stick he gets from the Australian press and supporters. Let's look at the Australian team. The backline is absolutely tremendous, although they have a bit of problem at 10. Look at the pack- the worst of out the top ten nations. Australia have no right to be as good as they are with that side and yet the continue to be the second best in the world. I would love Robbie Deans as Irish coach. Our backline in particular would be radically different under his guidance.

Anyway, spoke to a very well connected mate of mine there earlier to arrange a game of golf and asked him about potential appointments. I brought up Connor O'Shea and he said that some figures in the IRFU have said words to the affect of 'over my dead body' about him. He is more likely to be next England coach than Irish coach and that is a real shame.

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

Does Declan Kidney have a daughter? Darren Cave must have been at her. That's the only explanation to not even give the form 13 in Irish rugby over the past 18 months a chance.

[Notch]

It just goes to show Hooky; the egos of the blazers of the IRFU are more important than getting the right man.

It's a professional organisation run by amateurs.

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

Notch, look at the difference good upper management makes to a side. The IRFU should get down on their knees and crawl to Belfast and beg Shane Logan to sort them out.

[Notch]

Yeah, I've long said it. The problems run deeper than Kidney, they run to his immediate superiors.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

Yeah I think we need an outside influence who isn't caught up in our stuff and doesn't have any pre-conceptions of our players.

Vern Cotter would be my call to be honest and if he wins the HCup this year I can see him wanting to go

[Sin é]

I'm with Rodders on that one: if you wanted a form Irish XV (with injuries) you'd probably go:

Healy-Strauss-Bent
Tuohy-McCarthy
Henderson-Henry-Jennings
Marshall-Sexton
McSharry-Bowe
Earls-Zebo-Trimble

Earls has been injured since the 6th October - how could he be a form pick ?

Bent hasn't played for Leinster yet!

[Sin é]

What if it's a good thing for us to drop down to 9th in the world?

Surely it would mean Kidney would have to be sacked before the Six Nations.... something every messeger hear wants. We get fresh coaching staff, ones who can bring out the talents of our backline and begin to develop younger players for the next WC. It will also give us a hope of winning the Six Nations.... maybe even a GS.

If we are to have serious ambitions in the next WC then what difference is it being the 3rd seed in our group? Memories of the Argies in '07 spring to mind.

Nonsense. What has brought you to the point that you believe the IRFU have any semblance of competence in this area? Even if they do sack him, who will replace him? Who are the leading contenders? Connor O'Shea would be my favourite- give him the job, let him oversee a coaching team that he puts together. The IRFU and O'Shea aren't best buds to put it mildly, so I can't see them approaching him. Even if they do, why on earth would Harlequins permit him to leave considering how well they are doing this season with a real chance of major silverwear.

Why would any of the Irish provinces allow their coach to double up with the Irish team if it affects their season? Leinster especially, but also Ulster and Munster to a lesser extent.

We might end up with Mike Ruddock, who might be a very fine coach, proved in charge in the Welsh setup that he couldn't cope with the politiking and a senior players revolt. I would love him to be part of a coaching setup, but head coach? Some people might suggest it is a bit of a step up going from Lansdowne to Irish coach.

When we lose to Argentina its going to be a DISASTER for the Irish team. We will be making World Cup knockout qualification very difficult- imagine a group with New Zealand and France, or South Africa and Australia for instance. The Six Nations will be a write off. Alot of layers with Lions ambitions will either spend the summer on a beach with Paddy Wallace, or on a glorified Wolfhounds tour.

Never mind Conor O'Shea and Joe Schmidt, there are surely other quality coaches available besides those two.

When you say that the Six Nations will be a write off well thats exactly my point. Get Kidney sacked and maybe it won't be a write off .

Also, it's unlikely we'll end up in a group with New Zealand and France. And, if we can get our act together before 2015 then I believe we have the potential to be one of the top 3.

Gleesonisgod - Deccie was a big fan of yours. Such a big fan that Jennings decamped to Leicester!

[Sin é]

Notch, look at the difference good upper management makes to a side. The IRFU should get down on their knees and crawl to Belfast and beg Shane Logan to sort them out.

Hookie, I'd say Shane Logan & David Humphreys were grateful that their bosses Philip Browne & Tom Grace had the wherewithal to write a big cheque to get Ulster out of the financial mire and sign the likes of Pienaar, Afoa & Muller while at the same time building a 50K seater stadium.

Did they also have to pay off Matt Williams, McCall and anyone else they sacked up there recently.

(Its great hookie won't see this because he has me on ignore. Please do not include it in any replies). Thanks.

[Sin é]

Yeah I think we need an outside influence who isn't caught up in our stuff and doesn't have any pre-conceptions of our players.

Vern Cotter would be my call to be honest and if he wins the HCup this year I can see him wanting to go

So you don't think his friendship with Schmidt might be a factor in how he would view Irish players?

Robbie Deans would probably have a long chat with his former Assistant (Jim Williams) and his present Assisant (Tony McGahan). The Aussies love Declan Kidney broken-in coaches

[Pot Hale]

Give Ulster yoof its head.

15 Hurley/Jones 14 McFadden 13 Cave 12 Marshall 11 Gilroy 10 Jackson 9 Marshall 8 Heaslip 7 Henry 6 Hendo 5 Tuohy 4 O'Callaghan 3 Bent 2 Cronin 1 Kilcoyne

16 Strauss 17 Healy 18 Ross 19 McLaughlin 20 O’Mahony 21Murray, 22 Sexton/ROG 23 Zebo.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

Good point on earls sin fair enough. I'd still argue bent is better than Ross based on what iv seen for taranaki and Ireland, the fact e hasn't played for Leinster is irrelevant to his form.

[clivemcl]

Notch, look at the difference good upper management makes to a side. The IRFU should get down on their knees and crawl to Belfast and beg Shane Logan to sort them out.

Hookie, I'd say Shane Logan & David Humphreys were grateful that their bosses Philip Browne & Tom Grace had the wherewithal to write a big cheque to get Ulster out of the financial mire and sign the likes of Pienaar, Afoa & Muller while at the same time building a 50K seater stadium.

Did they also have to pay off Matt Williams, McCall and anyone else they sacked up there recently.

(Its great hookie won't see this because he has me on ignore. Please do not include it in any replies). Thanks.

oops

[clivemcl]

I think we should just pick the ulster team, they seem to be doing ok at the minute. Stick Zebo/Earls in at 15, Give them a front row of Healy Strauss Bent, and partner Tuohy with McCarthy.

Thats a team right there! It would certainly have a lot more synergy than Kidney is able to achieve from his combinations.

Healy-Strauss-Bent
Tuohy-McCarthy
Henderson-Wilson-Henry
Marshall-Jackson
Marshall-Cave
Bowe-Zebo/Earls-Trimble

That team would also have to ignore everything Kidney tells them and instead as themselves What Would Anscombe Say?

Golden

[Notch]

This is Gerry Thornleys predicted team;

Ireland (possible)

15 Denis Hurley (Munster)

14 Fergus McFadden (Leinster)

13 Darren Cave (Ulster)

12 Luke Marshall (Ulster)

11 Craig Gilroy (Ulster)

10 Paddy Jackson (Ulster)

9 E Reddan/C Murray

1 David Kilcoyne (Munster)

2 Seán Cronin (Leinster)

3 Michael Bent (Leinster)

4 Donncha O’Callaghan (Munster)

5 Dan Tuohy (Ulster)

6 Iain Henderson (Ulster)

7 Chris Henry (Ulster)

8 Jamie Heaslip (Leinster, capt)

I want to get a giant megaphone and head to Carton House. I will shout and shout; stop picking McFadden on the wing!!

David Kelly predicts a very similar side with just two differences; Muldoon at openside and Ross at tighthead

Probable Ireland XV (v Fiji) – Hurley; Gilroy, Cave, L Marshall, McFadden; Jackson, Murray/Reddan; Kilcoyne, Cronin, Ross; O'Callaghan, Tuohy; Henderson, Muldoon, Heaslip (capt).

[rodders]

I'd be delighted with either of those sides....problem is that those should be close to the test side not the 'not really a capped international side'

Think Madigan is hard done by not to get the fullback gig given he's been much more impressive there than Hurley and I'm not sure what else Paul Marshall has to do to get a start. Not bad though Deccie, not bad....

[rodders]

oh yeah..... McFADDEN IS NOT A WING.....

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

I'd be very frustrated if that team came out. I think Zebo needs more time at 15, I think Strauss needs more time with the Irish lineout. We also don't need to see DOC in a game like this, he deserves to be in 'the team' or 23 man squad but we know what he does and this isn't a competitive fixture.

[Notch]

I don't really see the point tbh.

We have what could essentially be a Cup Final against Argentina and a team that hasn't gelled at all. If this is the team he's going to pick for that, fair enough, but we all know its not at all. I would want to see some of the units for Argentina getting more gametime.

I think this side is good for building for the future in some ways, my big concern is building for next week though!

If this game gets fast and loose Gilroy could impress. He's yet to really cut loose so far this season, but give him the ball in space and he's electric.

[clivemcl]

Yea, have to agree with you Rodders. I'd be happy with those teams, bar Madigan and Marshall exclusions!

Are these journo predictions usually fairly close because they've pretty much heard stuff they shouldn't have and have to print it in a way that makes it seem like they are guessing when in truth they actually know.

[Notch]

Are these journo predictions usually fairly close because they've pretty much heard stuff they shouldn't have and have to print it in a way that makes it seem like they are guessing when in truth they actually know.

Well Gerry Thornley basically gets the team on the morning of the game every time, in return he is Kidneys snivelling little PR man.

[clivemcl]

Notch, maybe Kidney thinks that Scotland is an easy win for SA, and that 8th spot is safe.
Whereas I'm actually pretty sure Scotland will run SA very close if not even snatch it, and then we could be screwed!

[Notch]

I don't think he will be counting on South Africa doing us a favour I think he's just rigidly sticking to the plan...

This is kind of what I mean when I say he's not a conservative coach. I'm advocating he pick a much more settled, conservative, experienced team for this fairly meaningless game with next week in mind but he's building for the future.

A number of these guys will go on to become Ireland regulars later in their careers and this experience will do them good. Nevertheless, for me the shadow of Argentina looms over it all- and the question, how do we improve the team that will take the pitch? Because ultimately, he's not going to pick most of these players next week.

[clivemcl]

I don't think he will be counting on South Africa doing us a favour I think he's just rigidly sticking to the plan...

This is kind of what I mean when I say he's not a conservative coach. I'm advocating he pick a much more settled, conservative, experienced team for this fairly meaningless game with next week in mind but he's building for the future.

A number of these guys will go on to become Ireland regulars later in their careers and this experience will do them good. Nevertheless, for me the shadow of Argentina looms over it all- and the question, how do we improve the team that will take the pitch? Because ultimately, he's not going to pick most of these players next week.

In fairness Notch, when you sit down and think about it, there's never a good time in the international calendar to blood the young ones. Theres always going to be some reason why we could argue for playing the old heads.

- World ranking
- Pride when playing top 3, desperately wanting a win
- Consistancy and getting a group to gel.

At the rate we are going of desperatly looking for confidence building wins, when are we ever going to give the future 'stars' the chance to build to the required level?

I'll be very glad if we go for that team. And if henderson / cave / marshall / bent / gilroy turn out to play really well, it could effectively change the face of the team for the foreseeable future. Which effectivly could cancel out the negative of dropping out of the top 8.

Like someone said we could get a group with SA and Scotland. I'd rather be third tier in the WC with a few exciting young players up to speed, than second tier with the pensioners still keeping them out.

[Notch]

It's true. For me, the rebuilding should happen in the Six Nations. We'll wait and see.

[Sin é]

Notch, look at the difference good upper management makes to a side. The IRFU should get down on their knees and crawl to Belfast and beg Shane Logan to sort them out.

Hookie, I'd say Shane Logan & David Humphreys were grateful that their bosses Philip Browne & Tom Grace had the wherewithal to write a big cheque to get Ulster out of the financial mire and sign the likes of Pienaar, Afoa & Muller while at the same time building a 50K seater stadium.

Did they also have to pay off Matt Williams, McCall and anyone else they sacked up there recently.

(Its great hookie won't see this because he has me on ignore. Please do not include it in any replies). Thanks.

oops

you. are. going. to. be. in. trouble.

[clivemcl]

Notch, look at the difference good upper management makes to a side. The IRFU should get down on their knees and crawl to Belfast and beg Shane Logan to sort them out.

Hookie, I'd say Shane Logan & David Humphreys were grateful that their bosses Philip Browne & Tom Grace had the wherewithal to write a big cheque to get Ulster out of the financial mire and sign the likes of Pienaar, Afoa & Muller while at the same time building a 50K seater stadium.

Did they also have to pay off Matt Williams, McCall and anyone else they sacked up there recently.

(Its great hookie won't see this because he has me on ignore. Please do not include it in any replies). Thanks.

oops

you. are. going. to. be. in. trouble.

Couldnt resist! It was like a big Red Button saying 'DO NOT TOUCH'.

[WillyGilly]

Proof that nothing is working in Irish rugby? Stream is down no team announcement

[clivemcl]

Its back up now Willy, check out you mans sideburns there!

http://www.irishrugby.ie/ireland/live_streaming.php

[WillyGilly]

That tartan scarf is a bit of a fashion faux pas!

[clivemcl]

Journos have a hard life don't they...

[Notch]

Picture, no sound, no team annoncement.

Oh here's sound. Alright, do it already.

[clivemcl]

blank screen... nooooooooooooo!

[clivemcl]

back again.

Journos are stealing all the bandwidth!

[WillyGilly]

Maybe it's taking so long cos Kidney is practising all the Ulster lads surnames. Let's be honest he's probably never used them before.

[Rava]

Deccie and ROG can't agree on the final lineup

[Notch]

This would never happen if the IRFU had only had the foresight to put a New Zealand techie in charge of a live webcasts

[clivemcl]

Maybe it's taking so long cos Kidney is practising all the Ulster lads surnames. Let's be honest he's probably never used them before.

Or he's just realised he's got luke playing scrum-half and paul playing 12

oh HERE WE GO

[clivemcl]

Jackson and Luke! Unreal

[Notch]

Confirmed team (1-15);

Kilcoyne, Cronin, Ross, O'Callaghan, Tuohy, Henderson, Muldoon, Heaslip (c), Murray, Jackson, Gilroy, L. Marshall, Cave, McFadden, Hurley

Replacements; Strauss, Healy, Bent, Ryan, Henry, P. Marshall, Sexton, Zebo

That is a rancid back three in many ways. And Murrays selection at 9 is fairly baffling.

[WillyGilly]

Court seemingly out of the international picture then? That's okay son come home and play some Italians instead!

[Notch]

Paddy Jackson; Ireland Hooker

A hasty correction!

[rapidsnowman]

That is a rancid back three in many ways. And Murrays selection at 9 is fairly baffling

Gilroys not that bad!

[LeinsterFan4life]

I have no doubt that if it was a capped game then ROG would have been on the bench or maybe even starting to get his cheap cap.

[Notch]

No, its just... you've got Gilroy who's a good wee player and then you have McFadden who not a wing and Hurley who is military medium. None of the players have ever played together before.

It's just a poor combination of players.

[Notch]

I have no doubt that if it was a capped game then ROG would have been on the bench or maybe even starting to get his cheap cap.

Ah, give over.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

[quote="Notch"]Confirmed team (1-15);

Kilcoyne, Cronin, Ross, O'Callaghan, Tuohy, Henderson, Muldoon, Heaslip (c), Murray, Jackson, Gilroy, L. Marshall, Cave, McFadden, Hurley

Replacements; Strauss, Healy, Bent, Ryan, Henry, P. Marshall, Sexton, Zebo

[quote]



Positives:
1) Henderson, Jackson, Kilcoyne, Marshall, Cave, Gilroy all getting game time.
2) There is still a bit of experience in there.
3) Good that the new midfield unit are familiar with each other.

Negatives:
1) This is not a warm up to Argentina
2) Of all the guys who needed gametime in the front row Ross was not that guy! Strauss and Bent should be starting to become more familiar.
3) Why Hurley? We need Zebo in there so he has more experience in the position come Argentina.
4) If we are not using this as a warm up for Argentina (and we aren't) why start Murray instead of the in form half back partner of Jackson, Paul Marshall.

[LeinsterFan4life]

I have no doubt that if it was a capped game then ROG would have been on the bench or maybe even starting to get his cheap cap.

Ah, give over.

sorry couldnt help it.

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