Ireland vs Argentina, Build-Up and Match Thread

[Notch]

Ireland's date with destiny fast approaches. Win and we are absolutely certain of a Second Tier seeding at the 2015 RWC. Lose... and we are at the mercy of other results. Argentina sit just ahead of us in the World Rankings table in sixth and will also be looking to copper-fasten their spot. There'll be no love lost between the two sides; these games are always confrontational and Argentina have a fair bit of momentum coming into this with a very credible win in Cardiff. They failed to register a win in their debut rugby championship season but the lessons learned make them a much more dangerous beast than the naive bruisers we've faced in the past. They've kept all their passion and physicality, but now have a fine young generation of elusive and skillful backs and a much better balance to their game. Two of those- Horacio Agulla and Lucas Amorosino- have been omitted by Santiago Phelan for this game but watch out for Juan Jose Imhoff and Gonzalo Camacho.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3885_8259078,00.html

Argentina: Marcos Ayerza, Marcelo Bosch, Maximiliano Bustos, Gonzalo Camacho, Manuel Carizza, Santiago Cordero, Agustín Creevy, Tomas Cubelli, Tomas De la Vega, Julio Farias Cabello, Juan Martín Fernandez Lobbe (capt), Santiago Fernandez, Francisco Gomez Kodela, Juan Cruz Guillemain, Eusebio Guinazu, Juan Martin Hernandez, Juan Jose Imhoff, Martín Landajo, Juan Manuel Leguizamon, Tomas Leonardi, Nahuel Lobo, Manuel Montero, Bruno Postiglioni, Federico Sanchez, Leonardo Senatore, Gonzalo Tiesu, Joaquin Tuculet, Tomás Vallejos, Nicolas Vergallo.

Talking of backs, Ireland coach Declan Kidney has a number of decisions to make after a much-changed backline ran rampant against against an admittedly under-strength and uncommitted Fijian side. Media and fans have been clamouring to see more of the likes of Craig Gilroy, Luke Marshall and Paddy Jackson but when he selects his side the Cork man has to counter-balance their obvious potential against the naivety of our last opponents and the value of experience. It would be no surprise if he mainly stuck to the conservative option; expect a few new faces but no radical, fundamental change. He'll be hoping Johnny Sexton recovers from an injury picked up in the warm-up on Saturday; he's scheduled to return to training on Thursday, the same day the team is named.

Teams to be edited in when they are announced. Discuss.

[clivemcl]

My team:

Healy
Strauss
Ross
McCarthy
DOC
Henry
Henderson
Heaslip

Murray
Sexton (happily take Jackson if Sextons injured)

Gillroy
Marshall
Cave
Bowe
Zebo


I honestly believe this team would do well. Having familiarity in the centers and wings is the only chance we have got when you have a coach who seemingly can't coach. We have to use the hard work of the coaching at club level.

[Notch]

Why no Donnacha Ryan? Appreciate he was quiet against the Boks but still a key man imo.

I also think Michael Bent should start.I think I would go for this

Healy Strauss Bent
Ryan McCarthy
Henderson Heaslip(c) Henry

Murray Sexton

D'Arcy Cave
Gilroy Zebo Bowe

Cronin Kilcoyne Ross O'Callaghan O'Mahony Reddan Jackson McFadden

[Cari]

Got to love the name Maximiliano Busto

[rodders]

Preferred:

1 Healy 2 Strauss 3 Ross
4 Ryan 5 McCarthy
6 Henderson 8 Heaslip 7 Henry
9 Murray 10 Sexton
11 Gilroy 12 Marshall 13 Cave 14 Bowe
15 Zebo

Bench: Kilcoyne, Cronin, Bent, O'Callaghan, POM, Marshall, Jackson, McFadden

Expected:

1 Healy 2 Strauss 3 Ross
4 Ryan 5 McCarthy
6 O'Mahoney 8 Heaslip 7 Henry
9 Murray 10 Sexton
11 McFadden 12 D'arcy 13 Earls 14 Bowe
15 Zebo

Bench: Kilcoyne, Cronin, Bent, O'Callaghan, Henderson, Reddan, ROG, Gilroy/Trimble

[gleesonisgod]

Preferred:

1 Healy 2 Strauss 3 Ross
4 Ryan 5 McCarthy
6 Henderson 8 Heaslip 7 Henry
9 Murray 10 Sexton
11 Gilroy 12 Marshall 13 Cave 14 Bowe
15 Zebo

Bench: Kilcoyne, Cronin, Bent, O'Callaghan, POM, Marshall, Jackson, McFadden

+1, Bent at 3 maybe and definitely Earls on the bench. I would like to see Earls at fullback or wing but because of Kidney's stubbornness to keep him 13 at Gilroy and Zebo are rightfully ahead of him.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

Hope Argie fan jumps in on this thread so it isn't all us Irish lads knocking the bejaysus out of each other, nice to hear something else!

My preferred is similar to others on here.

Healy-Strauss-Bent
McCarthy-Ryan
Henderson-Heaslip-Henry
Murray-Sexton
Marshall-Cave
Earls-Zebo-Bowe

Cronin-Kilcoyne-Ross-DOC-POM-Reddan-Jackson-Gilroy

I am with Notch on the Bent vs Ross thing. I see no reason what so ever why Ross should start ahead of Bent who IMO has looked physical, solid and aggressive.

I would start Marshall and Cave in this one as they looked to have much more focus and mental certainty than Darcy and Earls and didn't fall in to the pit falls which kill this Irish team. I am really tempted to play Bowe at 13 and put Earls at 14 but that may just mess things arond too much.

Ryan needs a big game as DOC has looked positive which I am delighted to say.

Henderson may not get the nod over POM but he entirely deserves too, POM looks a tad undercooked at this level which is frustrating cos for Munster he really has a mad dog kinda thing about him and it's great.

I am very worried about Argentina's physicality and their ability to win a collision and then make an offload to a back 5 who are very aware of running support lines off their shoulders.

I am also unsure of how our scrum will hold, it is something I am looking forward to seeing but am also semi-nervous about. Their kicking game is also significantly better than ours

[gleesonisgod]

Should be the game to decide Murray's international future.

[Biltong]

I think Argentina's physicality will be too much for Ireland up front, the question is will Ireland's backs be able to compensate for this?

It will be close, but I think Argentina will sneak this.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

I think Argentina's physicality will be too much for Ireland up front, the question is will Ireland's backs be able to compensate for this?

It will be close, but I think Argentina will sneak this.

Lot of sense there. I hate it but it's rational. Our pack needs a big big game. If we come off second best then ball is slow, that results in us not being able to go forward as our backs are too small to penetrate set defences and our kicking game is weak.

We need quick ball to win basically

[Biltong]

Well Pete your pack is capable of big games, they did so in New Zealand, but the consistency is not there.

I think in this case it will be the injuries to your backrow that will be the main issue, are any. Of those guys back for this game?

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

SOB may be playing for Leinster this weekend but that is a maybe. Ferris is still out. POC is out. A lot of our strength in terms of gain line success and breakdown superiority are out. BOD can be included in that list

[Biltong]

I am afraid that doesn't bode well for Ireland then, Argentina has been fortunate, they haven't had that many injuries, and those that have been unavailable were replaced rather successfully.

[mrsuperclear]

When did we last have one of our good games? Second test v New Zealand? Yeah, that was only two "tests" ago, far too soon. I vote we'll play our usual inconsistent nonsense and lose by 7 or so. Perhaps we'll be due our once in a blue moon great game by the time France come to town for the six nations though?

I also reckon the only changes Kidney will make is admirably and correctly draft in Henderson at blindside instead of POM and possibly throw McFadden on the wing (not saying that choice is admirable btw) instead of Trimble. He won't change anything else and the game will finish with ROG OH and Sexton (on Kidney's insane mission to replace D'arcy) at centre.

I used to be more optimistic back in the day....

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

I'm not sure it is luck so much Biltong, they have been building consistently over the last few months and adding a second dimension to their play. THey have developed so much from what would have been stereotyped as a traditional bruiser team they are adding further strings to their bow.

I didn't expect them to beat Wales or draw with you guys, they should have beaten Australia once too. Rugby in Argentina is beginning to reach its short term potential and I feel its long term potential is considerably higher too

[Biltong]

Yeah maybe not luck, but good fortune in the minimal amount of injuries they have had. Especially when compared to sA and OZ.

[rodders]

I think Argentina's physicality will be too much for Ireland up front, the question is will Ireland's backs be able to compensate for this?

It will be close, but I think Argentina will sneak this.

Thanks for the input Bilts. Yes I think you are right. If Argentina get the edge up front and dominate the breakdown then they'll win I think.

I think we are capable of winning here but we need a big improvement from the SA game. It will be a tight one and we could get beasted the way Wales did.

[ME-109]

Watched extended highlights of France Argentina and they were quick out of the blocks and unlucky not to be 20-3 up before France got motoring...will be an interesting first 20mins.

Regarding team selection its best to let you all get your unrealistic fantasies out of the way before Thursday...

[LeinsterFan4life]

Watched extended highlights of France Argentina and they were quick out of the blocks and unlucky not to be 20-3 up before France got motoring...will be an interesting first 20mins.

Regarding team selection its best to let you all get your unrealistic fantasies out of the way before Thursday...

Where did you watch the highlights?

[ME-109]

YouTube...haven't got the link handy, but there is the whole game, a five minute one from ESPN. The one I watched was about 17mins in french

[profitius]

Why should Ireland be worried about Argentinas physicality? Lets not lose the run of ourselves here folks. The Boks didn't exactly run riot against the Irish pack. The bookies have Ireland at -5pts. I think -2pts would be more accurate IMO but the bookies are the most accurate predictors.

Its the backline and how it attacks thats the main concern. Argentina look as though they have a more efficient way of playing. They're still good at spoiling but have added a little class to their team. I'd say both teams will be kicking the leather off the ball but I think Ireland will just about come off second best if so.

[RugbyFan182]

Re: Ireland vs Argentina, Build-Up and Match Thread
by profitius Today at 12:59 am

Why should Ireland be worried about Argentinas physicality? Lets not lose the run of ourselves here folks. The Boks didn't exactly run riot against the Irish pack. The bookies have Ireland at -5pts. I think -2pts would be more accurate IMO but the bookies are the most accurate predictors.

Its the backline and how it attacks thats the main concern. Argentina look as though they have a more efficient way of playing. They're still good at spoiling but have added a little class to their team. I'd say both teams will be kicking the leather off the ball but I think Ireland will just about come off second best if so.

Totally agree!

[Biltong]

Why should Ireland be worried about Argentinas physicality? Lets not lose the run of ourselves here folks. The Boks didn't exactly run riot against the Irish pack. The bookies have Ireland at -5pts. I think -2pts would be more accurate IMO but the bookies are the most accurate predictors.

Its the backline and how it attacks thats the main concern. Argentina look as though they have a more efficient way of playing. They're still good at spoiling but have added a little class to their team. I'd say both teams will be kicking the leather off the ball but I think Ireland will just about come off second best if so.

The Boks have been poor their last two matches, you can't compare how one team was and say because they were poor another team will be as well.

But let's wait for the weekend, the proof is always in the pudding.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

I see no comparison physically, if they play 100% and so do we they should win the physical fight

[clivemcl]

Did anyone else see how the BBC pretty much did a mini documentary on the Young brothers playing together the other week. Yet at the weekend, I don't think they even knew Paul and Luke were brothers!

I'm sure it must have been special for them and their family. Well done the Marshal's!

[MrsP]

Did anyone else see how the BBC pretty much did a mini documentary on the Young brothers playing together the other week. Yet at the weekend, I don't think they even knew Paul and Luke were brothers!

I'm sure it must have been special for them and their family. Well done the Marshal's!

Paddy and Peter may be brothers but Luke and Paul aren't.

[clivemcl]

WAIT, they are brothers arnt they??

[MrsP]

As I just added above.

Paddy and Peter may be brothers but Paul and Luke are not!

[clivemcl]

Your kidding me. I was told this yonks ago, and had no reason not to believe it.

well.... this is embarassing...

[MrsP]

Sorry Clive.

You could just edit your post before anyone else sees it I suppose?

[clivemcl]

Ha, no. My credibility on here is long gone, I dont think this will really make it much worse. I'll take it like a man...


Or maybe just not come back for a few weeks.

....although i need someone to say something uncalled for so I can make it seem like I'm leaving because its all got too cynical and I need to take a break for my own sanity....

na, no-one will buy it, everyone knows I dont truly give a toss. I'm just here to avoid doing work. its plain as day!

right, I'm off before this place gets busy

[clivemcl]

anyway, I reckon last weekend proves that Declan Kidney knows what he is doing and should defiantly be given a contract extension.

And Sexton will never make it at International standard. ROG is still the best we have.

I think we should start a strategy for scouting out 17 year old new zealanders and getting them signed up with Connacht on three year contracts. Pay them whatever it takes.

Thomas O'Leary is and always has been our best option at 9.

Any thoughts?

[Argie fan]

I am afraid that doesn't bode well for Ireland then, Argentina has been fortunate, they haven't had that many injuries, and those that have been unavailable were replaced rather successfully.

Well, not sure about that.

List of major injuries:

Patricio Albacete.
Felipe Contepomi.
Juan Martín Hernández.
Horacio Agulla.

They are first choice players and some are very important into the team.

[Biltong]

Argie, sure those are important players, but as I said after that comma, the replacements have stepped up.

I would love to be in a position of only 4 injuries, we have that in our backline alone.

[rodders]

Why should Ireland be worried about Argentinas physicality? Lets not lose the run of ourselves here folks. The Boks didn't exactly run riot against the Irish pack.

Eh? They battered us from Pillar to post for 50 minutes. Our scrum did well for most of the game but they picked off 3 lineouts, slowed down our ball on the deck and our carriers struggled to break the gainline against their physical defence. Our Mauls were inneffective whilst we had to concede a yellow to bring theirs down (could have been a penalty try). Healy, McCarthy and Henry apart our pack were ground down and marmalized by the boks 8 over the 80min.

No don't get me wrong I think we can take them on in the pack, and if we do we have a good chance, but if we perform like we did against SA then we'll be in trouble.

[rodders]

Sorry Clive.

You could just edit your post before anyone else sees it I suppose?

Too late! Sorry Clive but...... ! .....

[ME-109]

anyway, I reckon last weekend proves that Declan Kidney knows what he is doing and should defiantly be given a contract extension.

And Sexton will never make it at International standard. ROG is still the best we have.

I think we should start a strategy for scouting out 17 year old new zealanders and getting them signed up with Connacht on three year contracts. Pay them whatever it takes.

Thomas O'Leary is and always has been our best option at 9.

Any thoughts?

You forgot D Humphries was a great oh and we should have had more token ulstermen in the team during the last decade

[clivemcl]

Sorry Clive.

You could just edit your post before anyone else sees it I suppose?

Too late! Sorry Clive but...... ! .....

Yea Rodders, lets talk about this instead!

anyway, I reckon last weekend proves that Declan Kidney knows what he is doing and should defiantly be given a contract extension.

And Sexton will never make it at International standard. ROG is still the best we have.

I think we should start a strategy for scouting out 17 year old new zealanders and getting them signed up with Connacht on three year contracts. Pay them whatever it takes.

Thomas O'Leary is and always has been our best option at 9.

Any thoughts?

please?

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

Argie fan-

Was wondering when you were going to show up. Prepare to be introduced to the extraordinary split in Irish rugby. Expect it by tomorrow or Thursday.

Back to rugby, I would take 4 injuries to starting players.

We are missing Best, O'Connell, O'Brien, Ferris, O'Driscoll and Kearney. Not only are they starting players but they are our best players and best leaders too.

The Saffa's have it worse (but with better depth) and the Aussies have it worse again in my book.

Any part of the Irish side that gives you a bit of a tang of fear?

[ME-109]

Why should Ireland be worried about Argentinas physicality? Lets not lose the run of ourselves here folks. The Boks didn't exactly run riot against the Irish pack. The bookies have Ireland at -5pts. I think -2pts would be more accurate IMO but the bookies are the most accurate predictors.

Its the backline and how it attacks thats the main concern. Argentina look as though they have a more efficient way of playing. They're still good at spoiling but have added a little class to their team. I'd say both teams will be kicking the leather off the ball but I think Ireland will just about come off second best if so.

The Boks suffocated us in effect especially the second half, they didnt even have to compete at the breakdown or at the ruck as they just fanned out across midfield leaving absolutelty no space. Funnily enough our kicking game wasnt great or even tried to get around this as we kept the ball in hand. Argentina arent as imposing but they did not give Wales a sniff of a try by basically doing the same they were well on top of France for the first part of the game last weekend but the French were able to physically impose themselves and tied in defenders leaving space for the backs. This might actually be a game where keeping it tight and playing for territory would make more sense and only "playing" rugby in the right areas.

[rodders]

Totally agree DOD but our territorial game and tactical kicking has been pants lately.

If we try and move the ball off no attacking platform then I fear Argentina will isolate our runners and hit us on the counter.

Tactics are key here. Both Murray and Sexton need to control the game in a way they didn't against the Boks. We need more effective carrying from the pack too.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

Realistically if you can't battle for the gainline and win a certain percentages of the collisions you will not win any game. I amn't saying you need to run over guys (although that can work) because you can pass inside balls to deep runners who while not the biggest may becoming at pace and on a line that will get them beyond the gainline.

There are so many ways to get beyond the gainline however if you can't do it you won't win, tactical kicking or not.

[TJ1]

I thik this might be a game too far for argentina. they looked spent in the second half last week. No easy game but Irteland by 7

[rodders]

Thats a good point TJ...Argentina have had a very tough run of tests, whereas a lot of the Ireland players have played relatively little rugby since the summer.

That can go either way though...Argentina are battle hardened and should this one turn into a real armwrestle they might just have enough in the tank to grind it out.

Wales made the mistake of thinking they'd fade after 50-60 minutes.

The key think with Argentina, who love to counterrattack is to score first and try and get a two score lead. Who ever starts best and gets in front will take this I think.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

I think we are the weakest opposition they will have faced in 2012. I think this alone means they are battle hardened enough to beat us if we don't front up. It is a step down for them from playing NZ, France, SA, Aus, Wales.

Argentina have always gotten better through game time too. They always started well in World Cups but build and build the further they get. You could argue the same in the Championship this year.

These guys are going to be very very tough I think.

If Samoa beat Scotland by a fair bit (r vice verse) we could be in trouble.

[ME-109]

I think we are the weakest opposition they will have faced in 2012. I think this alone means they are battle hardened enough to beat us if we don't front up. It is a step down for them from playing NZ, France, SA, Aus, Wales.

Argentina have always gotten better through game time too. They always started well in World Cups but build and build the further they get. You could argue the same in the Championship this year.

These guys are going to be very very tough I think.

If Samoa beat Scotland by a fair bit (r vice verse) we could be in trouble.

It would be a complete surprise if Samoa beat Scotland....a big surprise....

[rodders]

You think??

[ME-109]

Yes...as they will be in France

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

I think we are the weakest opposition they will have faced in 2012. I think this alone means they are battle hardened enough to beat us if we don't front up. It is a step down for them from playing NZ, France, SA, Aus, Wales.

Argentina have always gotten better through game time too. They always started well in World Cups but build and build the further they get. You could argue the same in the Championship this year.

These guys are going to be very very tough I think.

If Samoa beat Scotland by a fair bit (r vice verse) we could be in trouble.

It would be a complete surprise if Samoa beat Scotland....a big surprise....

Why?

They beat Wales and looked comfortable in beating them. The now very real link of traditional Samoan physical power and a newer tactical intelligence and key decision makers stepping up, makes them a very scary opponent. I think Samoa would beat us if they played us. Their scrum looked strong, tactical kicking was clever, their counterattack was good, defence wasn't astoundingly organised but was a huge improvement. The only real weakness I saw was their lineout which isn't a huge strength of ours although Scotland are good there

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

Do Samoa not have a game against Scotland before they leave? Some teams have a 4 week tour rather than a 3.

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