Welsh exodus thread AKA another one bites the dust thread

[The Saint]

I can't find the original transfer thread so apologies if this is clogging up the forum.

JD2 to Clermont - confirmed

Latest rumours is that Bradley Davies is set to link up with former coach Dai Young at Wasps. Ian Evans may be joining Toulon and the rumours that AWJ is going to Clermont are still circling. With Charteris already at Perpignan, that's potentially our first 4 lock fowards playing outside of Wales....

[The Saint]

http://www.espn.co.uk/wales/rugby/story/207073.html

[ScarletSpiderman]

Saint was it this thread https://www.606v2.com/t44592-welsh-regions-signings-departures-rumours-2013-scarlets-link-with-blues-winger-albert-nikoro

Not too sure if Pioden is on here too much recently to update it mind.

[Cardiff Dave]

and yet another......

Toulon president Mourad Boudjellal has confirmed the Top 14 side have signed Ospreys lock Ian Evans on a three-year deal.
Read more at http://www.espnscrum.com/france-top-14-2013-14/rugby/story/207389.html#1mBegxFBsAHTgODC.99

[mrzimmerman]

Massive shame about Ianto but understandable. Its now even more important we keep hold of AWJ. I would use every penny we were prepared to give Ianto and offer it to AWJ too. It would be a disaster if he leaves.

All the best to Ian Evans. Thanks for your great service to the Ospreys.

[Welshmushroom]

Players at the end of their careers is less of an issue so I don't think the Ian Evans signing Toulon have damaged Wales to much.  Players like North & JD however does as they are still developing.  

The problem with France is that they don't look after the players that well and neither do they train anywhere near professionally.  Its all about match days.  That's fine for already established stars who don't really have any more physical/skill development in them but the training routines in france really hamper long term development pathways.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I'd be interested to see how many games a season, on average, Ian Evans has played for the Ospreys. Presumably players get paid whether they're injured or not, so if the Ospreys can bring in a replacement who's a) available all season and b) fit all season, it's not such a bad deal.

[The Saint]

The Ospreys will certainly miss Ian Evans, they don't really have a replacement who is the same height... Anyone know when Charteris is out of contract?

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Couldn't they just buy a pair of stilts for Matthew Morgan?

[maestegmafia]

Shame though Lloyd is looking good, with game time, and if we can hold on to AWJ, he could prove to be a good player.

[ScarletSpiderman]

On the flip side of the exodus, there is talk of Aled Brew possibly coming back to wales next season, I know he is not going to set the world alight but still movement in the opposite direction and all that

[maestegmafia]

On the flip side of the exodus, there is talk of Aled Brew possibly coming back to wales next season, I know he is not going to set the world alight but still movement in the opposite direction and all that

The way that the PRL have trampled all over Northamptons George North signing it will either free up Welsh players playing in England or deter them from moving there.

[ScarletSpiderman]

On the flip side of the exodus, there is talk of Aled Brew possibly coming back to wales next season, I know he is not going to set the world alight but still movement in the opposite direction and all that

The way that the PRL have trampled all over Northamptons George North signing it will either free up Welsh players playing in England or deter them from moving there.

Or make them decide that France is a better option, more money still part of the HEC (by the looks of things).

[Cardiff Dave]

On the flip side of the exodus, there is talk of Aled Brew possibly coming back to wales next season, I know he is not going to set the world alight but still movement in the opposite direction and all that

The way that the PRL have trampled all over Northamptons George North signing it will either free up Welsh players playing in England or deter them from moving there.

Or make them decide that France is a better option, more money still part of the HEC (by the looks of things).

Or they simply do not feature in the additional AI.

[VinceWLB]

Not sure there are a lot of fight from the regions to keep those players, with their unavaillabitily and likelyhood of them picking injuries in training camp, you could argue they aren't worth the wages they demand.

[wayne]

The Ospreys will certainly miss Ian Evans, they don't really have a replacement who is the same height... Anyone know when Charteris is out of contract?

No we will not, James King is keeping him out of the team, he is available a lot more often than Ianto, even though he is about 4 inches shorter, we throw to him a lot more than Ianto, the only place we actually lose out with King is weight in the scrum he is about 2 stone lighter than Ianto

[whocares]

Probably not the right thread but heard on the radio that Mike Philips is close to be signing for Racing Metro.

[ScarletSpiderman]

Not sure there are a lot of fight from the regions to keep those players, with their unavaillabitily and likelyhood of them picking injuries in training camp, you could argue they aren't worth the wages they demand.

Talk is the Scarlets are looking mainly at building a squad that will be available year round before sorting out contract renewals for international stars.

[The Saint]

The Ospreys will certainly miss Ian Evans, they don't really have a replacement who is the same height... Anyone know when Charteris is out of contract?

No we will not, James King is keeping him out of the team, he is available a lot more often than Ianto, even though he is about 4 inches shorter, we throw to him a lot more than Ianto, the only place we actually lose out with King is weight in the scrum he is about 2 stone lighter than Ianto    

I don't think 6'4 is tall enough for 2nd row. I think King is better focusing on the 6 jersey. I've also noticed the Spreys have had a couple U20 locks come through the academy, Rhodri Hughes, etc.. Could be worth looking at them.

[Breadvan]

James King, Lloyd Peers. Both decent replacements for Evans imo. Wouldnt be missed as much as AWJ or A Jones..

[XR]

As mentioned in this thread, you give AWJ a new contract with his current calary plus a sizeable chunk of the salary IE was on. We need to keep AWJ in wales as i firmly believe he will become the welsh captain over warburton, in time.

[Cardiff Dave]

As mentioned in this thread, you give AWJ a new contract with his current calary plus a sizeable chunk of the salary IE was on. We need to keep AWJ in wales as i firmly believe he will become the welsh captain over warburton, in time.

Break the bank for one player? Don't agree with that.

[Shifty]

I'd be interested to see how many games a season, on average, Ian Evans has played for the Ospreys. Presumably players get paid whether they're injured or not, so if the Ospreys can bring in a replacement who's a) available all season and b) fit all season, it's not such a bad deal.

123 games in 9 years. 13.6 games a season. So about 1 game in 3.
He's played 5 games this season for us at the half way point. He played a total of 12 games for us last season.

[Shifty]

James King, Lloyd Peers. Both decent replacements for Evans imo. Wouldnt be missed as much as AWJ or A Jones..

Or Rhodri Hughes, Jack Jones or Sam Williams, were not short of young locks.

[Cardiff Dave]

Any news on the current PA?
Surely the WRU and RRW must be up to something behind the scenes.

[maestegmafia]

I'd be interested to see how many games a season, on average, Ian Evans has played for the Ospreys. Presumably players get paid whether they're injured or not, so if the Ospreys can bring in a replacement who's a) available all season and b) fit all season, it's not such a bad deal.

123 games in 9 years.  13.6 games a season.  So about 1 game in 3.
He's played 5 games this season for us at the half way point.  He played a total of 12 games for us last season.

He has had some lengthy injury periods in that time.

[ScarletSpiderman]

Any news on the current PA?
Surely the WRU and RRW must be up to something behind the scenes.

Typical the only comments I can find on the PA are

Saracens boss Nigel Wray claims the Welsh regions want to join the English Premiership to secure their long-term future.


The four regions - Cardiff Blues, Newport Dragons, Ospreys and Scarlets - have been at loggerheads with the WRU for some time and Wray has told the Rugby Paper that they are looking east for their best hope.

"They'd love to play in the Aviva Premiership and we'd love it too," Wray said. "English and Welsh rugby has an enormous history, a rich culture of big club matches. What could be better than the restoration of the traditional fixtures, guaranteeing massive matches of real importance?

"We play each other anyway in the LV=Cup so why not make the fixtures really meaningful? An enlarged Aviva Premiership can be created with no extra fixtures to be squeezed into the calendar. It would be good for the WRU because it would provide their teams with tougher competition.

"There are fantastic old rivalries there and games would sell-out. Games like Leicester v Cardiff and Scarlets v Northampton would have real bite and meaning, which would appeal to the customers who often get forgotten in all of this.

"Bring in the Welsh, go to 16 teams and play 30 games plus the play-offs. You'd have to agree on promotion and relegation but that's not too difficult, so let's move forward and give our customers meaningful games."

The four regions have been given until the end of December to agree a new deal with the WRU. If they do not then they face an uncertain future, all the more so with this week's Heineken Cup news.

Read more at http://www.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/story/207777.html#uSiW3b7Qz9z2MrTW.99

[maestegmafia]

Any news on the current PA?
Surely the WRU and RRW must be up to something behind the scenes.

Typical the only comments I can find on the PA are

Saracens boss Nigel Wray claims the Welsh regions want to join the English Premiership to secure their long-term future.


The four regions - Cardiff Blues, Newport Dragons, Ospreys and Scarlets - have been at loggerheads with the WRU for some time and Wray has told the Rugby Paper that they are looking east for their best hope.

"They'd love to play in the Aviva Premiership and we'd love it too," Wray said. "English and Welsh rugby has an enormous history, a rich culture of big club matches. What could be better than the restoration of the traditional fixtures, guaranteeing massive matches of real importance?

"We play each other anyway in the LV=Cup so why not make the fixtures really meaningful? An enlarged Aviva Premiership can be created with no extra fixtures to be squeezed into the calendar. It would be good for the WRU because it would provide their teams with tougher competition.

"There are fantastic old rivalries there and games would sell-out. Games like Leicester v Cardiff and Scarlets v Northampton would have real bite and meaning, which would appeal to the customers who often get forgotten in all of this.

"Bring in the Welsh, go to 16 teams and play 30 games plus the play-offs. You'd have to agree on promotion and relegation but that's not too difficult, so let's move forward and give our customers meaningful games."

The four regions have been given until the end of December to agree a new deal with the WRU. If they do not then they face an uncertain future, all the more so with this week's Heineken Cup news.

Read more at http://www.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/story/207777.html#uSiW3b7Qz9z2MrTW.99

What do you guys think of that?

Are we better off playing our rugby in the Aviva Premiership? The WRU would have to sanction it, which would cause some interesting debate.

It doesn't sound like the way forward to me. Games between nations have a great history at club level but they are not the be all end all of rugby. We get a bigger house to watch a local derby than we do when a team comes to visit.

I can't see the regions getting a fair deal out of the PRL either going by the PRLs recent history of negotiation etc

[ScarletSpiderman]

Maes - I think it is just another sound bite from a man who likes his own voice, to be honest. RRW have not released any statements to that effect etc. I can see where you are coming from with the WRU having to sanction it, but if the regions don't sign the PA Roger the Dodger has said they will be ditched by the WRU, so I guess that makes them free agents to join the RFU?

This comment by Wray may be additional fodder for RRW to beat the WRU around the head with. After all the union have announced a 4th AI already next year, but they don't know if they will actually have any players available for it until the PA is signed. Now RRW can wave the Aviva at the WRU and say stuff your agreement, we are going to the Aviva and taking our players who are under contract with us. Seeing as all the current stars who are out of contract seem to be heading to France or England already, if the regions did this then the WRU would be left fielding a welsh prem XV against Aus in the MS, next season and I doubt that would sell out. So like I said it is actually giving the regions a stronger hand to negotiate with the union over the PA.

[Cardiff Dave]

negotiate with the union over the PA.

Which hopefully is either happening as we speak or is about to happen very soon. What the outcome will be however is anyone's guess. Probably a compromise of sorts that will enable the 4 to keep limping along as they are, but with a slightly lesser limp.

[maestegmafia]

negotiate with the union over the PA.

Which hopefully is either happening as we speak or is about to happen very soon. What the outcome will be however is anyone's guess. Probably a compromise of sorts that will enable the 4 to keep limping along as they are, but with a slightly lesser limp.

We sure are awaiting this with some trepidation. I don't think that either side can be so stupid as to cut off their nose to spite their face, and on recent rugby politicing would probably see entering the room with a mind to compromise on both sides would be a lesson well learned from the Euro rugby debacle.

[ScarletSpiderman]

negotiate with the union over the PA.

Which hopefully is either happening as we speak or is about to happen very soon. What the outcome will be however is anyone's guess. Probably a compromise of sorts that will enable the 4 to keep limping along as they are, but with a slightly lesser limp.

I heard the current RRW v WRU situation summed up on another site (for Cyclopes folk) as

"It just a game of chicken"

followed up by

"Aye but you get the feeling the regions are in a Go-kart and the union are in a tank."

The truth is it will end up with a deal that has all the advantages for each side trimmed out, and leave us all fighting the regions v wogger arguments for the next few years.

[maestegmafia]

negotiate with the union over the PA.

Which hopefully is either happening as we speak or is about to happen very soon. What the outcome will be however is anyone's guess. Probably a compromise of sorts that will enable the 4 to keep limping along as they are, but with a slightly lesser limp.

I heard the current RRW v WRU situation summed up on another site (for Cyclopes folk) as

"It just a game of chicken"

followed up by

"Aye but you get the feeling the regions are in a Go-kart and the union are in a tank."

The truth is it will end up with a deal that has all the advantages for each side trimmed out, and leave us all fighting the regions v wogger arguments for the next few years.  

Yes i would say that is about right... Might swap Go-kart for Box-Cart but the scenario is about right.

I think we all just want to see what is good for the game come out of this, we need it. International and Regional rugby is not going to get any easier for us.

It seems like there is little way that we can bridge players leaving Wales for inflated wages unless the club game in England or France collapses. Something which may or may not happen, but certainly not a risk either side of the Welsh line should debate.

How can we keep the players we want at the regions staying in Wales?

How can we improve the regions chances of beating clubs in Europe?

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Maes - I think it is just another sound bite from a man who likes his own voice, to be honest.  RRW have not released any statements to that effect etc.  I can see where you are coming from with the WRU having to sanction it, but if the regions don't sign the PA Roger the Dodger has said they will be ditched by the WRU, so I guess that makes them free agents to join the RFU?

This comment by Wray may be additional fodder for RRW to beat the WRU around the head with.  After all the union have announced a 4th AI already next year, but they don't know if they will actually have any players available for it until the PA is signed.  Now RRW can wave the Aviva at the WRU and say stuff your agreement, we are going to the Aviva and taking our players who are under contract with us.  Seeing as all the current stars who are out of contract seem to be heading to France or England already, if the regions did this then the WRU would be left fielding a welsh prem XV against Aus in the MS, next season and I doubt that would sell out.  So like I said it is actually giving the regions a stronger hand to negotiate with the union over the PA.

You're right, the regions have more power, or are holding better cards, than people might think. The WRU is all about Team Wales, but the players are contracted to the regions, not the WRU. Without those players, there is no Team Wales. (Yes, there are players in France, but they're not contracted to the WRU either.)

[maestegmafia]

Maes - I think it is just another sound bite from a man who likes his own voice, to be honest.  RRW have not released any statements to that effect etc.  I can see where you are coming from with the WRU having to sanction it, but if the regions don't sign the PA Roger the Dodger has said they will be ditched by the WRU, so I guess that makes them free agents to join the RFU?

This comment by Wray may be additional fodder for RRW to beat the WRU around the head with.  After all the union have announced a 4th AI already next year, but they don't know if they will actually have any players available for it until the PA is signed.  Now RRW can wave the Aviva at the WRU and say stuff your agreement, we are going to the Aviva and taking our players who are under contract with us.  Seeing as all the current stars who are out of contract seem to be heading to France or England already, if the regions did this then the WRU would be left fielding a welsh prem XV against Aus in the MS, next season and I doubt that would sell out.  So like I said it is actually giving the regions a stronger hand to negotiate with the union over the PA.

You're right, the regions have more power, or are holding better cards, than people might think. The WRU is all about Team Wales, but the players are contracted to the regions, nor the WRU. Without those players, there is no Team Wales. (Yes, there are players in France, but they're not contracted to the WRU either.)

How much do you think the Regions need to be offered to sell themselves out to a rival league? It would have to be quite a considerable amount more than the WRU are currently in contract with them for.

They have debts, they want more money to make improvements to squads and facilities... At a rough guess to be competitive in the Aviva Premiership they are going to need to be running on a budget of around £9m a season each.

I can't see the BT/PRL offering them that amount of cash.

[HammerofThunor]

Maes - I think it is just another sound bite from a man who likes his own voice, to be honest.  RRW have not released any statements to that effect etc.  I can see where you are coming from with the WRU having to sanction it, but if the regions don't sign the PA Roger the Dodger has said they will be ditched by the WRU, so I guess that makes them free agents to join the RFU?

This comment by Wray may be additional fodder for RRW to beat the WRU around the head with.  After all the union have announced a 4th AI already next year, but they don't know if they will actually have any players available for it until the PA is signed.  Now RRW can wave the Aviva at the WRU and say stuff your agreement, we are going to the Aviva and taking our players who are under contract with us.  Seeing as all the current stars who are out of contract seem to be heading to France or England already, if the regions did this then the WRU would be left fielding a welsh prem XV against Aus in the MS, next season and I doubt that would sell out.  So like I said it is actually giving the regions a stronger hand to negotiate with the union over the PA.

No, the WRU would still need to approve it. No way would the WRU set up new regions and have the old ones drawing away support.

2.1.2 A Club or Rugby Body may only be affiliated to one Union and shall be subject to the jurisdiction of the bye-laws, rules and regulations of that Union. A Club or Rugby Body may only be affiliated to the Union within whose geographical boundaries its Home Ground is situated and shall only be entitled to play in Matches organised, recognised or sanctioned by that Union, unless specific approval has been given by both Unions. No Club or Rugby Body shall be entitled to change the location of its Home Ground or the name by which its senior teams are known, without the prior written consent of the Union to which it is affiliated.1

[ScarletSpiderman]

Thunor thats got to be restiction of trade or somethin?

[Liam]

surely its just a matter of time before 1/2p and warbs are snapped up. For me, it seems every welsh player in the national side is up for grabs, especially after North and now JD2 have gone. Absolutely shocking. Don't blame players for leaving when they're heading towards the last few years of their careers but not when they're early 20's.

[HammerofThunor]

Thunor thats got to be restiction of trade or somethin?

Don't know. They could try and challenge it in court but I don't think they'll win. The only chance they win is if hey argue they're part of the UK and should be governed by a UK body. But down that path hell lays.

Edit: Not lawyer so pure guess work.

[Cardiff Dave]

surely its just a matter of time before 1/2p and warbs are snapped up. For me, it seems every welsh player in the national side is up for grabs, especially after North and now JD2 have gone. Absolutely shocking. Don't blame players for leaving when they're heading towards the last few years of their careers but not when they're early 20's.

Think Shove and Warbs have already been snapped up. A few others too no doubt.
The ones in their early 20s you refer to have bagged 3 year deals worth a million bucks. Can't blame them for taking up these offers. They'd be mad to refuse.

[Allty]

Very true

[ScarletSpiderman]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2518585/Richard-Hibbard-Rhys-Priestland-head-Premiership-Gloucester-London-Wasps-deals--exclusive.html


Two more to add to the list. Rhys to be poached by Dai Young (and by Stevo too) and Hibbs to be poached by Nigel Davies. So good to see that these welsh coaches are helping to end the exodus.


So far that is
Foxy - Clermont (Confirmed)
Ianto - Toulon (Confirmed)
Mike - Racing Metro (Confirmed, and done)
Bradley - Wasps (Rumoured strongly)
Priest - Wasps (Rumoured strongly)
Hibbs - Gloucester (Rumoured strongly)
Warbs - Saint (Rumoured strongly)
Tuppence - Toulon (Rumoured strongly)

Scott Williams and Adam Jones out of contract and a few minor rumours doing the rounds.

[ScarletSpiderman]

Halfpenny (Toulon)
North (Saints)
Davies (Clermont)
Roberts (Racing)
Cuthbert (Blues??)
Biggar (Ospreys)
Phillips (Racing)

Jenkins (Blues)
Hibbard (Wasps)
Jones (TBA)
Davies (Wasps)
AW Jones (Ospreys)
Lydiate (Racing)
Warburton (Saints)
Faletau (Dragons)

Bench
Owens (Scarlets)
James (Bath)
Mitchell (Exeter)
Charteris (Perpigan)
Tipuric (Ospreys)
Williams (Scarlets)
Priestland (Wasps) / Hook (Perpigan)
Williams (TBA)

Does not look like there is going to be a side to play against Australia in next years AIs then.

[HammerofThunor]

I didn't think clubs could talk to the players until January. Wasn't that said as an issue with the PA agreement? They needed it signed to release the extra £1M to keep these players in Wales, before January and the floodgates opened.

I know the PA was supposed to be renewed between Jul and Dec this year as well.

[Chunky Norwich]

Does not look like there is going to be a side to play against Australia in next years AIs then.

Wales play Australia inside the window. It's only the Springboks out of the window. So when all these players plus any at the rebel welsh clubs are available, Roger and Warren will be forced to play Dai Flanagan at 10.

Well done Roger.

[HammerofThunor]

Halfpenny (Toulon)
North (Saints)
Davies (Clermont)
Roberts (Racing)
Cuthbert (Blues??)
Biggar (Ospreys)
Phillips (Racing)

Jenkins (Blues)
Hibbard (Wasps)
Jones (TBA)
Davies (Wasps)
AW Jones (Ospreys)
Lydiate (Racing)
Warburton (Saints)
Faletau (Dragons)

Bench
Owens (Scarlets)
James (Bath)
Mitchell (Exeter)
Charteris (Perpigan)
Tipuric (Ospreys)
Williams (Scarlets)
Priestland (Wasps) / Hook (Perpigan)
Williams (TBA)

Does not look like there is going to be a side to play against Australia in next years AIs then.

They might have release deals written into their contract. It should be only James, Mitchell and Charteris who don't have them in their contracts (Charteris said he would be released but wasn't).

[ScarletSpiderman]

Thunor, the thing is the region know that they are going to lose these players regardless, it is the WRU that are now looking at losing players that they thought hey would be keeping hold of. And that must be scaring Roger poopless, which may mean a more favourable PA being drafted up?

[Chunky Norwich]

Thunor, the thing is the region know that they are going to lose these players regardless, it is the WRU that are now looking at losing players that they thought hey would be keeping hold of.  And that must be scaring Roger poopless, which may mean a more favourable PA being drafted up?

I wouldn't be so sure. If the regions go rebel, then the WRU is more likely to want a player playing for an English or French club. Like North and Lydiate, than a rebel Welsh side - because there's more chance of player release outside the window.

Having said that, I hope North's release by Saints was a one off. PRL were fuming, and rightly so.

[Chunky Norwich]

They might have release deals written into their contract. It should be only James, Mitchell and Charteris who don't have them in their contracts (Charteris said he would be released but wasn't).

Hook?

Lydiate has to now choose a match outside the window in the Summer to miss because he played against Australia.

[HammerofThunor]

They might have release deals written into their contract. It should be only James, Mitchell and Charteris who don't have them in their contracts (Charteris said he would be released but wasn't).

Hook?

Lydiate has to now choose a match outside the window in the Summer to miss because he played against Australia.

I went of Spiderman's proposed team, which didn't seem to have Hook in it.

Is that Lydiate's deal? Didn't know.

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