Latest Welsh Exodus

First topic message reminder :

This morning I read of more Welsh players leaving for France with Lydiate set to announce and speculation over Biggar too. I posted on another thread that the talent drain was serious for the future of professional rugby in Wales but I'm still amazed by the number of my fellow countrymen that have their heads in the sand over this issue and who are convinced that there is no problem.

The National team will not prosper if regional professional rugby becomes second rate (arguably it is all ready). If we don't have competitive professional rugby in Wales the grass roots game will die too..

It is beyond belief that the WRU and Regions aren't working together to solve the problem.

Firstly did or did not the WRU hand 2 bailouts to Scarlets early on? And how exactly did they pay for a stadium without the sale of Strdey??

Gwent is an actual existing region in geographical terms, Ospreys does not exist!!! Thats what I meant!

Of course attendances have risen, they were always going to rise from where they were, if they got smaller the players would have to leave the stadium!!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Firstly did or did not the WRU hand 2 bailouts to Scarlets early on? And how exactly did they pay for a stadium without the sale of Strdey??

Errr, the council paid for it, which includes a loan to the Scarlets. No, they didn't bailout the Scarlets at all.

Gwent is an actual existing region in geographical terms, Ospreys does not exist!!! Thats what I meant!

So you want geographical welsh regions then?

Explain how this will work.

Firstly, the bailouts, 2 of were independant to the new stadium, hence the bad feeling when the new stadium was anounced.

Stradey was kept while the WRU and council bought and built the stadium for duel use? Where did the 2nd use go? And Stradey was suppose to pay for it as a repayment wasnt it? Who owned Stradey?

My point regarding Gwent is that of all the regions drawn up only Gwent was an actual region, everywhere else were invisible lines drawn on a map!!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Firstly, the bailouts, 2 of were independant to the new stadium, hence the bad feeling when the new stadium was anounced.

Stradey was kept while the WRU and council bought and built the stadium for duel use? Where did the 2nd use go? And Stradey was suppose to pay for it as a repayment wasnt it? Who owned Stradey?

bailouts? This is a standard excerpt used for discussing bailouts and Llanelli:

I'd be more comfortable using the term "bail out" if it was applied to the match funding on share purchases or on unsecured loans - like the one given to Pontypridd RFC which they didn't escape paying even when they went into administration.

On those terms of "bail out" (i.e. share match purchases) you can add in Ebbw Vale to Pontypridd and probably Swansea too.

The scarlets chose to sell to the WRU because the WRU offered the best commercial terms. In effect, if you like, they acted like a lender of last resort.

Llanelli could have mortgaged the property on bank terms but that would have cost them more.

Whilst the WRU "owned" Stradey Park, they used it as security on one of their own loans, when they were on the bones of their backsides.

Pretty standard commercial activity and far from a bailout.

My point regarding Gwent is that of all the regions drawn up only Gwent was an actual region, everywhere else were invisible lines drawn on a map!!!

So, if youi see this as a positive step, then surely you want it to continue elsehwere in Wales - so what are the other regions you'd like?

It is not a positive step, I was making a point that regions in Wales did not exist, there is no Blue region, no Osprey region and no Scarlet region, but there is an actual Gwent!!!

You can spin it all you like, truth is Llanelli a town of 50k people or so represent a 1/4 of the welsh population of millions, it's been a drain on the WRU and partly the reason Warriors went under.

I have no problem with Scarlets at all, I blame the WRU for the whole mess at inception, and from inception up until now.

But don't worry mate I have my PWRU plans ready for when the prof game dies we'll rise from the ashes!

thebluesmancometh wrote:It is not a positive step, I was making a point that regions in Wales did not exist, there is no Blue region, no Osprey region and no Scarlet region, but there is an actual Gwent!!!

You can spin it all you like, truth is Llanelli a town of 50k people or so represent a 1/4 of the welsh population of millions, it's been a drain on the WRU and partly the reason Warriors went under.

I have no problem with Scarlets at all, I blame the WRU for the whole mess at inception, and from inception up until now.

But don't worry mate I have my PWRU plans ready for when the prof game dies we'll rise from the ashes!

You don't seem capable of providing any alternatives to this "drain". Other than lie about the regions that do exist.

guess I was wrong as Dan Lydiate is set to join Jamie Roberts at Racing Metro next year...

So let me get this right Chunky, geographically there was a Blue, Osprey and Scarlet region along the M4 corridor before 2003???

thebluesmancometh wrote:So let me get this right Chunky, geographically there was a Blue, Osprey and Scarlet region along the M4 corridor before 2003???

What are you talking about?

You are incapable of prividing an answer to the question. YOU say the regions are not set up in the right way

SO please can YOU provide an altenrative that would work.

Thanks

From what I see there are Welsh fans who hope the regions fail and instead of getting behind them they talk them down.

profitius wrote:From what I see there are Welsh fans who hope the regions fail and instead of getting behind them they talk them down.

There are even a group of Ponty supprters flyign out to support Toulon against Cardiff Blues in the H Cup this season, so I'm told.

I haven't a problem if people don't feel they are represented by a region. It is bound to happen. But to then backstab and lie about the regions that currently exist is just so god damn Welsh.

"If we are failing then I hope everyone else fails"

Sad times.

NO I hold season tickets at 2 regions!! I am not willing the regions to fail, I am merely recognising that they are failing!!!

Ive heard about the Ponty fans too and do you know what fair play to them, they are the best supported club and have nothing but amateur prem games to support.

You can't tell a proud fan to join with his nearest rival when his region has been sold down the river.

Let me ask you chunky, if the WRU decide at some point that dropping to 2 regions (say east/west) and join into the Aviva (or lower) will you happily fall into line again?

Change is coming, it has to!!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Let me ask you chunky, if the WRU decide at some point that dropping to 2 regions (say east/west) and join into the Aviva (or lower) will you happily fall into line again?

No I wouldn't But I wouldn't then have a poody go and support the opposition.

Mate you don't know how the Ponty fans feel, you can't exactly put yourselves in their shoes.

We couldve quite easily seen the Scarlets go under, or not been allowed to stand alone in the first place, how would you feel about that?!?!?!

To Ponty fans the WRU are the enemy now, and TBH I am starting to know how they feel.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Mate you don't know how the Ponty fans feel, you can't exactly put yourselves in their shoes.

We couldve quite easily seen the Scarlets go under, or not been allowed to stand alone in the first place, how would you feel about that?!?!?!

Mortified, but I wouldn't support an english, french or irish team against a welsh region - I'd just go and watch cricket.

To Ponty fans the WRU are the enemy now, and TBH I am starting to know how they feel.

The WRU are my enemy too, and I support a region. They are dispicable.

So from where I and Ponty fans sit it's a case of changing sports or making attempting to make a change.

I have to admit I was clapping Argentina in that 2nd half!!!

Chunky Norwich wrote:The way the game is going - Wales will have the same setup as Argentina in 5 years time. A few semi pro clubs ina worthless doemstic competition. But no professional regions to speak of. All our players will be contracted to big teams in France and England - and training will be done around their schedules.

Very few people seem to care that this is swiftly becoming a reality.

The reason I started this thread was not to bring up the club/region debate again (although I know it doesn't take much )

I think Chunky is right, we are in very real danger of seeing professional rugby erode in Wales. Do we really want to see Wales end up like Argentina with a "virtual" national team and no domestic game? Can you imagine NZ allowing that future? It's brilliant what Argentina have achieved with no domestic league but it is not a sustainable model for countries like Wales to fopllow.

I happen to think that professional rugby needs to be nurtured by the WRU to a much greater extent and that means working much closer with the Regions. (I don't subscribe to the view that we should abandon the Regions and go back to clubs - simply not commercialy viable). If pro rugby in Wales can't compete, firstly for talent and secondly on the pitch, all of rugby in Wales will suffer. I'm not usually one to over react but I do think this is a crisis and the WRU and many fans seem to be oblivious.

At least it gives the Pony fans a pro game to watch i.e., HC rugby and know the team they are going to support is going to win also have a good time.

Back on subject, I read the article by Andy Howell and it is all speculation and no facts the Biggar example is last year's news and all is going well for him at the Ospreys. I can't see Dan (Lydiate) signing for the Dragons again as they are going nowhere, I would speculate Dan is more likely to join the Ospreys or Blues, my reasoning is he works on his family farm with his parents, brother and he is a keen farmer. Like the WM this is my speculation so just as much fiction as the WM article.

There is no point blaming the WRU for the exodus of players. The going rate in france for a welsh international seems to be £400k per year. With profits of just over a million reported in the last financial year, the wru would need to find another £10m from somewhere just to fund the salaries of the top 25 players for 1 year.

The only workable solution is to select only those players who play in wales for the welsh team and the regions would gather far more support if they argued this point more strongly rather than begging for more money.

glamorganalun wrote:At least it gives the Pony fans a pro game to watch i.e., HC rugby and know the team they are going to support is going to win also have a good time.

I thought this article was about Welsh players leaving for France! And the only solution to that is central contracts which the WRU can afford. The way it is currently going there will be no professional rugby in Wales and that will have a devastating long term effect on the national side.

PS

Its just 30 mins on the train from Ponty to Cardiff both stations are close to the grounds and its only £6 return!

It may be geographically close but then I'm only 15 minutes from Bristol, maybe I should pop on a white shirt for the AI's!!!

Ponty fans will not support the blues!

I find it interesting that Wales were leading the charge to professionalism in the 90's and now they appear to be leading the charge back to amateurism.

Leading the charge to profesionalism???

It didn't reach Wales till mid 2000's!!!

I am only talking about payment for players. I remember a rugby world around 95 with Jiffy on the cover saying that players were being paid and it was the biggest scandal in rugby. It was (apparently) influential in the game turning...

Scrumdown wrote:There is no point blaming the WRU for the exodus of players. The going rate in france for a welsh international seems to be £400k per year. With profits of just over a million reported in the last financial year, the wru would need to find another £10m from somewhere just to fund the salaries of the top 25 players for 1 year.

The only workable solution is to select only those players who play in wales for the welsh team and the regions would gather far more support if they argued this point more strongly rather than begging for more money.

You're a bit off there. The WRU just spent £2.5m refurbishing the hospitality boxes for a kick off. Maybe they should have spent that on players?

They need to save money to stop the best 15 or so players going abroad. That is - pay half the contract - and the regions pay the other half.

That's £3m for 15 players at 400k a pop - so if they hadn't refurbished the boxes or spent so much on the debt being paid off (£8m this year) then they would have easily had the £3m needed.

Idiots.

Scrumdown wrote:The only workable solution is to select only those players who play in wales for the welsh team and the regions would gather far more support if they argued this point more strongly rather than begging for more money.

I couldn't disagree more. This will not stop professionals chasing the money and both the national team and the regions will strugle to compete. Rugby will spiral downwards.

They could sell the naming rights for the MS.... could generate a good sum used to fund an elite group of players... its not like the stadium has much history and ties to the people given most recall the Arms Park as the national stadium.

Players have to get realistic though... they can't say the going rate for them is lets say 2 times what the unions can afford....if they commit to playing in France and for all their domestic games inc. during test windows etc. No one is remembered for being a giant in a domestic game, no one is going to want you on the after dinner circuit etc etc.

Money is great and all but whose career would you rather have.... Nick Evans or Dan Carter?

fa0019 wrote:Money is great and all but whose career would you rather have.... Nick Evans or Dan Carter?

I think it's Dan that has the career and the money!