New Zealand and the HAKA! !

by majesticimperialman Wed 14 Nov 2012, 5:07 pm

NO. This is not thread about New Zealand and not performing the HAKA before the game.
That question has been ask about a thousand times before.

New Zealand have been saying for a long time now, that the team.s they are playing against should respect the HAKA.

New Zealand usaly does 1 of 2 Haka's.

1) Kamate

2)Kapa O pong.

It has been said that New Zealand only peform Kapa O'pongo against teams that they have total respect for.

Teams like Australai, South Africa mainly because they play them more than any NH team/s.

Does that then indicate that if they do not perform Kapa O'pong against any NH team that they have NO, Or very little respect for any of the NH team/s? And if that is so, should the NH team/s have respect for the HAKA. (Should they stand there and just observe)

Your thoughts please.

by Guest Wed 14 Nov 2012, 5:09 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyv_8GX-hS8

oops

by Taylorman Wed 14 Nov 2012, 5:11 pm

Another negative slant on the same topic by a NHer.

If you want to see Kapo o Pango...then play better.

Simple.

Crying doesn't do anyone any good.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Wed 14 Nov 2012, 5:15 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:NO. This is not thread about New Zealand and not performing the HAKA before the game.
That question has been ask about a thousand times before.

New Zealand have been saying for a long time now, that the team.s they are playing against should respect the HAKA.

New Zealand usaly does 1 of 2 Haka's.

1) Kamate

2)Kapa O pong.

It has been said that New Zealand only peform Kapa O'pongo against teams that they have total respect for.
Teams like Australai, South Africa mainly because they play them more than any NH team/s.

Does that then indicate that if they do not perform Kapa O'pong against any NH team that they have NO, Or very little respect for any of the NH team/s? And if that is so, should the NH team/s have respect for the HAKA. (Should they stand there and just observe)

Your thoughts please.

Maj, the choice of Kapa O Ponga is more to do with the occasion that the opponent. There may be some bias there in that "better" teams are more likely to be involved in "big" occasions.

Basically, if they don't do a haka they don't respect you Wink

by tigerleghorn Wed 14 Nov 2012, 5:21 pm

Taylorman wrote:Another negative slant on the same topic by a NHer.

If you want to see Kapo o Pango...then play better.

Simple.

Crying doesn't do anyone any good.

QED I recon.

by TJ1 Wed 14 Nov 2012, 5:26 pm

I still think the campese approach is the right one.

I amsuprised no fuss was made over scotlands response as they crossed the 10 m line to stare em down.

However if I were captain it would simply be ignored - or maybe a the scots equivalent in return. It used to be a bit of fun now they have got far too precious about it

Scots Haka
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1N_WLEiHJQ4/TWEKnxaAsrI/AAAAAAAAAYQ/apY1U7Rc9x8/s1600/Braveheart_Moon.jpg

by Taylorman Wed 14 Nov 2012, 5:29 pm

It was played before France and Argie in the WCup and Argie in their first match against the ABs in the RC as a welcome to the tournament and as a true recognition of a new world rugby force in the eyes of the AB's.

Judging by last weekend it looks like that respect was justified.

They have earmarked it for special occasions or ones they so desperately need to win a tournament. If they start playing it to appease the 'feelings' of other sides then what is the point of it?

Call it arrogance and that's understandable as well. Its not intended that way.

by Taylorman Wed 14 Nov 2012, 5:44 pm

These are the two haka in discussion:

All Blacks Haka Translated

The Te Rauparaha Haka:

Before the Haka is performed by the team, the Haka leader, normally an All Black of Maori descent, will instigate the Haka and spur on those who are to perform the Haka with the following:

Ringa pakia

Uma tiraha

Turi whatia

Hope whai ake

Waewae takahia kia kino

English Translation:

Slap the hands against the thighs

Puff out the chest

Bend the knees

Let the hip follow

Stamp the feet as hard as you can.

Ka Mate! Ka Mate!

Ka Ora! Ka Ora!

Tenei te ta ngata puhuru huru

Nana nei i tiki mai

Whakawhiti te ra

A upane ka upane!

A upane kaupane whiti te ra!

Hi!!

English Translation:

It is death! It is death!

It is life! It is life!

This is the hairy person

Who caused the sun to shine

Keep abreast! Keep abreast

The rank! Hold fast!

Into the sun that shines!

Kapa o pango haka:

This haka was first performed by the All Blacks versus South Africa on 27 August 2005 at Carisbrook, Dunedin. The All Blacks won 31 - 27. This haka was written by Ngati Porou's Derek Lardelli. This haka will only be performed before special test matches.

Kapa o pango kia whakawhenua au i ahau!

Let me become one with the land

Hi aue, hi!

Ko Aotearoa e ngunguru nei!

This is our land that rumbles

Au, au, aue ha!

And it's my time! It's my moment!

Ko Kapa o Pango e ngunguru nei!

This defines us as the All Blacks

Au, au, aue ha!

It's my time! It's my moment!

I ahaha!

Ka tu te ihiihi

Our dominance

Ka tu te wanawana

Our supremacy will triumph

Ki runga ki te rangi e tu iho nei, tu iho nei, hi!

And will be placed on high

Ponga ra!

Silver fern!

Kapa o Pango, aue hi!

All Blacks!

Ponga ra!

Silver fern!

Kapa o Pango, aue hi, ha!

All Blacks!

by **LondonTiger** Wed 14 Nov 2012, 5:48 pm

ABs can do whatever haka they feel like.

By the same measure surely opponents can react any way they see fit. (without provoking violence)

What irks me is the insistence that it should:

a) Be the last thing before kick-off - fine if at home but when away I reckon that the home team should be allowed a response (ps when playing PI countries who goes first?)

b) That opposition should just stand there like good little children.

Personally I would be tempted to do a Len Goodman - hold up my scoring paddle and shout "SEVERRRN"

by Taylorman Wed 14 Nov 2012, 6:40 pm

Agree tiger, thats an IRB prescription.

For them the AB haka on the right stage, at the right moment, brings in the bucks and they dont want anyone hogging the limelight. Its not the way the AB's want it either.

In all honesty, and I'd like my fellow kiwi's to comment, nearly every school match I had we performed our own haka- odd the tradition seemed to disappear largely at club level- but we're taught to leave nothing left after the haka and to be honest, as fit as I used to be the hakas sometimes left me drained as anything, to the point of seeing stars sometimes.

Obviously I never used to admit it but in my opinion, the first minute or so of a match my senses werent overly the best, having to clear the head out a bit.

Through experience you learn to handle it but I'd say the best tactic in test matches would be to start the match as soon as possible after the haka is finished and get into them, hard.

by aucklandlaurie Wed 14 Nov 2012, 6:49 pm

Majesticimperialman

Where/who are all these New Zealanders that demand respect for the Haka? I cant recall it once.

I think you will find that the standard New Zealand attitude is that the opposition can reply to it in any way or form they like.

London Tiger

I can understand your thoughts about the Haka being the "last act before battle", but I think the IRB have got this one right, it is something unique to rugby (and League) and I am always convinced of this when American Sports journos from NFL,NHL, NBA they see the haka as something just so special, and often express regret that rugby has something that the big American sports just do not have.

It should be always noted that the ABs arent the only ones to have this Polynesian involvement in the big occassion.

by Taylorman Wed 14 Nov 2012, 7:37 pm

Yes theres this everlasting link between the NZ version of the haka and the AB results that doesnt attract the same 'popularity' of discussion as say the Tonga and Fiji ones that were also on show at the weekend.

Should we discuss the negative impact the hakas are having on their own teams and should they really bother with them if its somehow causing them to lose more matches than they win?

Or is it really that hakas actually serve no positive impact on a teams result, but rather the perception that it does when a side wins?

I mean 90% of test matches where a haka is on show are probably lost...so why the fuss...? thumbsup

by thebluesmancometh Wed 14 Nov 2012, 9:13 pm

I agree that the Haka offers nothing to a performance from either team, with todays science, tech and techniques players aremore motivated and prepared than ever before.

4o years ago maybe it was intimidating, but today it's just a dance opposing teams have to endure (No offence)

My point is I think the Haka gets a bad rep because of the preciousness surrounding it, by very few of the native people but more by the IRB.

I think if the IRB just relaxed a touch it'd be far more enjoyable, it would be given much less centre billing, maybe done before anthems or home teams allowed to sing an anthem after it etc.

IMHO I think the NZ Haka is the least liked dance purely because of the results compounded by the big crown of rugby tag the IRB force upon it. I like it but totally understand why people wouldn't

by TJ1 Wed 14 Nov 2012, 10:55 pm

So should the scots have a mass moon then?

aS for over-sensitive NZ players - been plety of examples over over sensitivity - from refusing to do it in Wales to the genuine anger when ODriscol threw a feather - a gesture he had discussed with maori leaders beforehand IIRC

by anotherworldofpain Wed 14 Nov 2012, 11:11 pm

Wait wait wait...So now after years of whining that you don't want to see the Haka at all, now you want a choice of Hakas?

Make your minds up!

by Casartelli Wed 14 Nov 2012, 11:26 pm

Taylorman wrote:

This haka was first performed by the All Blacks versus South Africa on 27 August 2005 at Carisbrook, Dunedin. The All Blacks won 31 - 27.

I was there.

Just sayin'.

by anotherworldofpain Wed 14 Nov 2012, 11:27 pm

TJ wrote:So should the scots have a mass moon then?

aS for over-sensitive NZ players - been plety of examples over over sensitivity - from refusing to do it in Wales to the genuine anger when ODriscol threw a feather - a gesture he had discussed with maori leaders beforehand IIRC

Please TJ you don't still believe the great O'Driscol Haka Response argument proposed by Campbell do you? do you? do you also believe Sadam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction?

by Otagolad Thu 15 Nov 2012, 3:09 am

TJ wrote:... from refusing to do it in Wales...

Lets get this straight on a couple of fronts:

1. The AB's accommodated the Welsh request to have the Welsh anthem follow the haka at the centenary match in 2005 - this was a one off variation.

2. The following year when the Welsh said they were going to have their anthem after the haka the AB's said no, that would go against the overall tradition of the haka - when the Welsh wouldn't change their minds the AB's did the haka in their dressing room and then proceeded to spank the Welsh on the field.

3. The only people who suffered were the fans who wanted to see it - not the AB's.

4. The AB's have said that if the haka is not wanted then that's fine and they'll just do it in the changing room beforehand.

5. Who would suffer if they did this ... again the fans and the IRB (see point 7 below), not the AB's.

6. The haka is done by the AB's for the AB's - not for anyone else.

7. Why do the IRB want the haka done - it generates excitement, viewers and $$$$ (the AB's are the biggest product in rugby and the haka only enhances that - debate this if you will but is the truth).

Diss it if you want, but the IRB will, so long as it generates excitement and interest in the game together with cash, continue to "protect" the haka.

On another point, I entirely agree with TM that every Kiwi I know has no concerns about how the haka is responded to and it is simply the IRB that has created an aura of "preciousness" over it (except in the case of point 2 above, which some might see as preciousness, although asking the Scots to stop singing Flower of Scotland and instead stating they must sing God Save the Queen, as it is a country forming part of the United Kingdom, and eliciting a NO might also be seen a precious - after all that is only a tradition). Very Happy

by **LondonTiger** Thu 15 Nov 2012, 7:03 am

No one has answered my question from earlier - when NZ play PI countries, in which order are the Hakas done?

by Guest Thu 15 Nov 2012, 7:10 am

Simultaneously aren't they?

by dallym Thu 15 Nov 2012, 7:19 am

at the RWC Samoa V Fiji were done at the same time (though i think one started slightly earlier), but Tonga completed theirs before the All Blacks started

by TJ1 Thu 15 Nov 2012, 7:45 am

On O'Driscol ther was direct quotes from furious AB players. plenty of other occasions there has been cries of "disrespect from AB players and management. NZ hearld agrees http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10334041

Sorry guys 0- yo cannot change the truth.

some of your players and management are far too precious about it - you even do it in your post - why is the "tradition" that it is done after the anthems so imortant?

I rember when it was done towards the crowd not towards the opposition players, i remember campese ignoring it and going off to practice on his own.

Its only in the last 10 or 15 years that it has become as it is and the ABs are far too precious about it - that is the fact of the matter - the "tradition" is not that old.

I agree the IRB have also made too much of it.

by Guest Thu 15 Nov 2012, 7:46 am

For some reason I always thought they were done at the same time but evidently not. There was this one of ABs v Tonga a couple of years back

https://youtu.be/eJuoP_4Ubp8

by dallym Thu 15 Nov 2012, 8:28 am

TJ wrote:On O'Driscol ther was direct quotes from furious AB players. plenty of other occasions there has been cries of "disrespect from AB players and management. NZ hearld agrees http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10334041

Unless I'm missing something, all that article says is the BOD tackle incident created speculation that the ABs thought it was disrepectful. Nothing from the ABs camp to confirm that rumour. So it's only speculation. It doesn't show the Herald agreeing with you at all

by TJ1 Thu 15 Nov 2012, 8:44 am

It fuelled a negative reaction

by TJ1 Thu 15 Nov 2012, 8:47 am

Different incident but the same preciousness shown

Meanwhile, All Blacks midfielder Ma'a Nonu has warned England not to copy Wales' dramatic response.
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"What the Welsh did wound us up," Nonu told reporters at the players' media session here this week.

"They were probably told by (Wales coach) Warren Gatland to stand there and wait until we leave," he said.

"But it was really hard. The haka is a war dance. If you're going to stand there like that then in the past people would have charged, but it's a rugby match and you can't do that.

"People back home will have been hurt by what they decided to do. Standing in the way like they did is asking for a fight.

"My blood pressure was pretty high but then I regained my composure. I was a bit upset about it.

by TJ1 Thu 15 Nov 2012, 8:53 am

I enjoy the Haka - always have done its a bit of theatricality that is fun. However either the NZ teams and supporters need to get less precious about it or it needs to be dropped.

It never even used to be done at home games. It used to be a far less obvious attempt to intimidate

I would also like to see other teams develop ways of answering it. For the scots a mass moon an a hielan' charge perhaps - at least as traditional as a Haka. Or simply ignore it as campese used to do.

by Guest Thu 15 Nov 2012, 8:56 am

Depends on how you look at it TJ. The responses you refer to is akin to poking a sleeping bear. Teams are more than welcome to respond like that, but they'd probably want to be sure they can back it up on the field, like France have. Many have tried to be innovative but sadly, they do all their posturing before the whistle and find they don't have the bottle when the game commences.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 15 Nov 2012, 8:58 am

I think most people enjoy it but sometimes it's taken way to seriously. The opposition should be allowed to do what they want when it's going on, either facing up to it or going to warm up. Had never seen the Nonu comment above but it's a bit silly; if it's still thought about as a war dance maybe they should think about changing it to something a little more sporting so that offence can't be taken?

by Effervescing Elephant Thu 15 Nov 2012, 8:59 am

I prefer the Kamate, it's got a better rythmn and is easier to emulate when i'm watching it at home, in my pants.

by XR Thu 15 Nov 2012, 9:02 am

Otagolad wrote:2. The following year when the Welsh said they were going to have their anthem after the haka the AB's said no, that would go against the overall tradition of the haka - when the Welsh wouldn't change their minds the AB's did the haka in their dressing room

I suppose inviting the tv cameras in to the changing room just in time was part of the 'overall tradition of the haka' as well? thumbsup

I have the opinion that if NZ want to do the haka last, let them do it. I'd be more focused on my own game if i were playing them, let them do the Haka but you shouldn't be fined for respondings, that's ridiculous. Isn't there a rule that you can't leave the 10m line while it's being performed? What would happen if the whole team got in a huddle and ignored it? Would the IRB fine them for 'not respecting' the Haka?

by **Biltong** Thu 15 Nov 2012, 9:05 am

The haka is something spectacular, so I think standing in front of them whilst they do the Haka is an experience.

No matter the meaning of the words, but the body language in itself should rile up any rugby player witnessing it.

by TJ1 Thu 15 Nov 2012, 9:12 am

Here are som early haka so you can see just how far it has come and how traditional the modern one is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGtIp1uK3TE&feature=related

Note the teams in the background just warmingup

by Guest Thu 15 Nov 2012, 9:15 am

Biltong, read your post in another thread about you and your boy doing the haka, that's pretty cool. Getting him familiar with it just in case he has to face it one day?

by **Biltong** Thu 15 Nov 2012, 9:17 am

ebop, you never know mate.

by AlastairW Thu 15 Nov 2012, 9:26 am

I like it. Bit of a prance about before a game of Rugby, keeps you warm in the cold months for a few moments, and if the Kiwi's ever lose their edge they can always enter Stirctly Come War Dancing.

I realise there is tradition involved, but has anyone thought about updating it a bit? Honestly, take a page from Diversity, they're cutting edge these days. Surely you could incorporate throwing the full back around a bit to some dubstep?

by TJ1 Thu 15 Nov 2012, 9:30 am

Interestingly the message about " please don't be so precious" may have been taken up by the allblacks. At the scotland match I believe kelly brown threw his scrum cap on the ground in challenge ( not shown on telly but you could hear the roar) - and the scots team advanced towards them to a roar from the crowd - and no complaints.

it does Irk me tho that no criticism or discussion is tolerated by many ABs fans

by dallym Thu 15 Nov 2012, 9:45 am

AlastairW wrote:
I realise there is tradition involved, but has anyone thought about updating it a bit?

Update it? Why. It's perfect already. How do you improve something which is already perfect?

(yes i realise your post was supposed to be humourous rather than serious. that strictly come war dancing joke is pretty funny)

by TJ1 Thu 15 Nov 2012, 9:58 am

its been constantly updated and changed. Nothing "traditional" about something that has only been done for a few years

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Thu 15 Nov 2012, 10:05 am

TJ wrote:its been constantly updated and changed. Nothing "traditional" about something that has only been done for a few years

1) tradition - a haka has been performed before matches by the All Blacks for over 100 years. It's more traditional than playing national anthems before matches
2) in the late '80s (following on from a major revival in Maori culture which started in the mid 70s) Buck Shelford pointed out that if the ABs were going to do a haka it should be done properly rather than half-heartedly
3) yes Ma'a Nonu is a bit precious about it.
4) as far as the O'Driscoll thing goes, most of the ABs didn't even notice the grass gesture. And even if they had, I doubt any of them would have had a clue whether it was a traditional response or not (I personally think whoever it was that suggested it was having a laugh)

by TJ1 Thu 15 Nov 2012, 10:14 am

The haka as done now is nothing like the haka done a hundred years ago ( i posted some clips) and it never used to be done before home matches and was done towards the crowd as entertainment not the opponents. Opponents used to be warming up while it was done.

so the curent form of the Haka a is a couple of decades old.

by TJ1 Thu 15 Nov 2012, 10:20 am

Don't get me wrong - sport is an entgertainment business and the Haka adds to the spectacle - but I thin opponents shuld be able to respond as they see fit without cries of "disrespect" . Be that ignore it,challenge it, moon them, turn their backs or whatever.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 15 Nov 2012, 11:32 am

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
1) tradition - a haka has been performed before matches by the All Blacks for over 100 years. It's more traditional than playing national anthems before matches
2) in the late '80s (following on from a major revival in Maori culture which started in the mid 70s) Buck Shelford pointed out that if the ABs were going to do a haka it should be done properly rather than half-heartedly
3) yes Ma'a Nonu is a bit precious about it.
4) as far as the O'Driscoll thing goes, most of the ABs didn't even notice the grass gesture. And even if they had, I doubt any of them would have had a clue whether it was a traditional response or not (I personally think whoever it was that suggested it was having a laugh)

1) Only at away matches till Shelford?
2) Aye, old clips of ABs doing the Haka look like a bunch of freemasons at a wedding (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emJyEa4z2Ec note - this is also done to the crowd)
3) True
4) Reminds me of the Chinese tattooist in NY who would ink people with profanities rather than the "wise" phrases they thought they were getting.

by dallym Thu 15 Nov 2012, 11:46 am

TJ wrote:The haka as done now is nothing like the haka done a hundred years ago ( i posted some clips) and it never used to be done before home matches and was done towards the crowd as entertainment not the opponents. Opponents used to be warming up while it was done.

so the curent form of the Haka a is a couple of decades old.

So? Do the crowds find the haka entertaining today? A fully blown challenge compared to limp morris dancing of the 70s - pretty clear which is more entertaining.

It's ok. We understand you. You are envious of the All Blacks success and in your feeble attempt to attack us you've focussed your attention on the haka. We understand your small man syndrome. I know that it is hard for people like you to accept the All Blacks' continued superiority. Just lie down and visualise the All Blacks 2007 RWC campaign and you'll feel better.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 15 Nov 2012, 11:56 am

dallym,

Your post indicates exactly why we can never agree on this subject. Most of us admire the ABs, have no issue with any superiority and were hoping, if our own team could not win billy, that NZ would win RWC 2011.

Disquiet about what the Haka has become in my lifetime is not driven by envy, inferiority complex or any other garbage you want to spout. It has been changed into a Wardance yet the opposition have been emasculated in the response they are allowed to offer. whether this emaculation is due to IRB, NZRU or Nonu is irrelevant - teams have been told to just stand there like naughty little schoolboys.

Teams should be allowed to respond - and they should be wary of tweaking the tigers tail.

The Haka is a magnificent spectacle - but even better when the opposition meet the challenge.

by beshocked Thu 15 Nov 2012, 11:57 am

LondonTiger wrote:dallym,

Your post indicates exactly why we can never agree on this subject. Most of us admire the ABs, have no issue with any superiority and were hoping, if our own team could not win billy, that NZ would win RWC 2011.

Disquiet about what the Haka has become in my lifetime is not driven by envy, inferiority complex or any other garbage you want to spout. It has been changed into a Wardance yet the opposition have been emasculated in the response they are allowed to offer. whether this emaculation is due to IRB, NZRU or Nonu is irrelevant - teams have been told to just stand there like naughty little schoolboys.

Teams should be allowed to respond - and they should be wary of tweaking the tigers tail.

The Haka is a magnificent spectacle - but even better when the opposition meet the challenge.

Spot on.

by TJ1 Thu 15 Nov 2012, 11:59 am

Dallym - think of a phrase usingthe words pot kettle adn black

Once again you display the attitude that no debate about the Haka must be allowed. Why are you so precious about it? Methinks the chap doth protest to much

by SecretFly Thu 15 Nov 2012, 12:10 pm

I think the opposition should have their hands cuffed behind their backs and have metal balls attached to the handcuffs to stop them moving. Plus, they should be gagged, lest they say something naughty. Wink

Christ, this generation of tweeting facebookers do love to knock up the melodrama in every little topic.

Fly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???? How could you say such a thing about ravin' tweetin' facebookers!!!!???? - You racist, bigot, ageist loon!!!! You should be jailed, fined, tarred, feathered and beheaded!

by **LondonTiger** Thu 15 Nov 2012, 12:12 pm

SecretFly wrote:I think the opposition should have their hands cuffed behind their backs and have metal balls attached to the handcuffs to stop them moving.

should only apply to ~~convicts~~ australians

by AlastairW Thu 15 Nov 2012, 12:17 pm

LondonTiger wrote:The Haka is a magnificent spectacle ...

I still think it would be better throwing the FB around to some drum 'n' bass. If we've been emasculated then we can herd in some drunken fat sl4gs to dance around their handbags ... I can hear the IRB calling me now offering me a place in the blazer brigade as events co-ordinator.

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