Select your country's starting XV at full strength

First topic message reminder :

Obviously a theoretical exercise more than anything given how often certain players will be injured and the sheer number of injuries we now see due to the amount of rugby being played, but if at full strength i.e. no injuries what XV (or 23) would you like to see starting for your International side this weekend.

This is also a bit of lazy research for me to be completely honest as some countries have such extensive injury lists at the moment I'm not really sure of the full sides many will select.

Usual selection criteria for countries is still in place so; NZ players wouldn't get selected when playing abroad, same for England (though not as strictly employed as I expect a fair few to select Steffon Armitage!), etc.

For England mine would be;

1.Corbisiero
2.Hartley (not a huge fan of him from some stuff I've read in interviews but his absence has shown how much better he is than his competition)
3.Cole
4.Parling
5.Launchberry
6.Croft
7.Robshaw
8.Waldrom (best current option from a pretty limited pool)

9.Care
10.Flood

11.Johnny May
12.Twelvetrees
13.Tuilagi
14.Ashton
15.Foden

16.Webber/Youngs (would be just as happy to have either of them there as I think they will both be very good players!)
17.Marler
18.Wilson
19.Lawes
20.Wood
21.Youngs
22.Burns
23.Joseph (Burns covers FH and FB therefore Joseph is best option to cover wing/centre - May and Foden's versatility also helps cover back three)

From this the only positions that really worry me are No 8 where Waldrom is a good Premiership player but by no means world class, and our depth at Tight head where Cole is a very good first choice but after that Wilson is solid at very best as an International player and no one really stands out after this. Could really do with Paul Doran-Jones kicking on a bit to give us some more cover.

On the selections which are changes from the current side; I've been pushing for Twelvetrees for a while now as I think his game could suit England really well with his distribution allowing Tuilagi and the forwards to hit some better lines out-wide in attack (and also get the ball to the wings!). Also his huge boot would take pressure of the 9 and 10's kicking which would hopefully alleviate some of the aimless kicking we currently see from them when under-pressure.

On the wing I've gone for Johnny May as I think he's got the best all round game out all the options such as Sharples,Monye,Wade,etc by far! All the previously mentioned have flaws in their game especially Wade/Sharples in defense. May's game from a defensive point of view is very good, he makes all his tackles (especially good in cover defense), he's very good under the high ball from his time a full back, he has great hands and also electric pace to go with it.

So that's my view for what it's worth!

Most our Scottish posters seem fairly well in agreement (better than most of us anyway!) on your best side.

Only real debating point you seem to have you also agree on with Laidlaw being better suited to 9. Although he's done well at 10 for you I'd tend to agree as it's not nice seeing a player used a door mat in defence and at Laidlaw's size that will just keep happening at international level!

Interesting to see people seem fairly adverse to the Lamont brothers after them being almost requirements in the side for so long.

From the English point of view the number of people calling for Sheridan is both good IMO as I still think he's got something to give, but also unfortunate given Lancaster's near refusal to pick players over 30.

For Ireland I'd agree that it would be great to see Luke Fitzgerald back in any position! He's the sort of player who's just fun to watch given his attacking ability and how unpredictable he could be. Wouldn't be surprised to see him turn into a very good centre myself.

So here goes the first Irish selection... Prepare for the backlash...

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Bent
4. Ryan
5. POC
6. Ferris
7. Henry
8. SOB

9. Marshall
10. Sexton
11. Gilroy
12. Marshall
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

16. Strauss
17. Court
18. Ross
19. Tuohy
20. POM
21. Murray
22. Jackson
23. Zebo

Tough between Zebo and Gilroy, but Gilroy is such an elusive runner and can score from anywhere...

Bent looks like the real deal at TH.

Ferris, O'Brien, Henry has a real mix and would be a classy back row...

Small Paul as he is pushing Pienaar and Luke as he is the only 12 worth talking about (Paddy W doesn't count!).
UlstermaninGlasgow

No Heaslip in team or bench?

Is that a big call or an accidental omission?

1 Corbisiero
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Lawes
5 Parling
6 Robshaw
7 Armitage
8 Morgan
9 Care
10 Burns
11 Wade
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Foden

16 Marler
17 Grey
18 Wilson
19 Launchbery
20 Wood
21 Youngs
22 Farrell
23 Brown

This is what I would like to see

James
Rees
A Jones
Charteris
Evans
Lydiate
Faletau
Warburton

Phillips
Really not know

Halfpenny
Henson
JD
North

Byrne

This would be my Scottish XV for the upcoming 6N if everyone was fit, on form and playing in their correct positions.

Grant
MacArthur
Murray
Hamilton
Gray
Brown (c)
Barclay
Denton
Laidlaw
Weir
Visser
Scott
Ansbro
Maitland
Hogg

Subs - Welsh, Low, Ford, Kellock, Harley, Cusiter, Heathcote, Dunbar

1. Healy
2. Strauss
3. Bent
4. Ryan
5. POC
6. Ferris
7. SOB
8. Heaslip
9. Reddan
10. Sexton
11. Luke Fitz
12. Marshall
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

Why do people keep putting laidlaw at 9? he has hardly played there for years and we have plenty of 9s around.

Captain_Sensible wrote:This would be my Scottish XV for the upcoming 6N if everyone was fit, on form and playing in their correct positions.

Grant
MacArthur
Murray
Hamilton
Gray
Brown (c)
Barclay
Denton
Laidlaw
Weir
Visser
Scott
Ansbro
Maitland
Hogg

Subs - Welsh, Low, Ford, Kellock, Harley, Cusiter, Heathcote, Dunbar

Wow Captain, no Rennie?

So from an English perspective...the EPS in January could have a number of changes...hopefully.

Burns
Twelevtrees
Armitage
Garvey (big debating point)
Wade
Eastmond?
May
Callum Clark?
Daly?

TJ wrote:Why do people keep putting laidlaw at 9? he has hardly played there for years and we have plenty of 9s around.

Laidlaw's spent the last 12 or so months at 10. He's done well there, but is quite obviously a 9, and a very, very good one at that. Our other options at scrum half are either past their best (Blair/Lawson) or still very green (Pyrgos). Cusiter is still a class act but Laidlaw shades it for me. Mine was a hypothetical selection, mind you. Hence the 'everyone fit and on form and in their correct position'. I'd only play Laidlaw at 9 if he's moved back there for Edinburgh. Fingers crossed that he is.

bluestonevedder wrote:

Captain_Sensible wrote:This would be my Scottish XV for the upcoming 6N if everyone was fit, on form and playing in their correct positions.

Grant
MacArthur
Murray
Hamilton
Gray
Brown (c)
Barclay
Denton
Laidlaw
Weir
Visser
Scott
Ansbro
Maitland
Hogg

Subs - Welsh, Low, Ford, Kellock, Harley, Cusiter, Heathcote, Dunbar

Wow Captain, no Rennie?

Fair point. I originally wrote it up as a likely 6N team, and I think Rennie will be back from injury a bit too late to play at the start of the tournament. I changed it to a totally hypothetical selection because that was just more fun, but failed to replace Barclay with Rennie. Both very good players, mind. Hard to choose between them when they are both at their best.

Captain_Sensible wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

Captain_Sensible wrote:This would be my Scottish XV for the upcoming 6N if everyone was fit, on form and playing in their correct positions.

Grant
MacArthur
Murray
Hamilton
Gray
Brown (c)
Barclay
Denton
Laidlaw
Weir
Visser
Scott
Ansbro
Maitland
Hogg

Subs - Welsh, Low, Ford, Kellock, Harley, Cusiter, Heathcote, Dunbar

Wow Captain, no Rennie?

Fair point. I originally wrote it up as a likely 6N team, and I think Rennie will be back from injury a bit too late to play at the start of the tournament. I changed it to a totally hypothetical selection because that was just more fun, but failed to replace Barclay with Rennie. Both very good players, mind. Hard to choose between them when they are both at their best.

AH I see- I didn't realise you were laying it down as likely 6N team. That's fair enough then. Shame for Rennie to get injured so early against NZ- I was looking forward to his contest with McCaw.

When they're both on form you're right, they are both so good. With Fusaro coming through the wings now too, it's a real headache.

Would love at some point to see the 'Killer Bs' backrow again. They were sublime during the 6 Nations (2009...?)

The Killer Bs heyday was the 2010 6N. I'd love Beattie to get back to his best, it would be a great tussle between him and Denton for the 8 shirt.

Ally Hoggs playing out of his skin at the moment...looks like hes just enjoying his rugby...would it be too late for him?

GeordieFalcon wrote:So from an English perspective...the EPS in January could have a number of changes...hopefully.

Callum Clark?

Or maybe Hawkins wouldve been second choice hooker if he hadnt bust his elbow. Still at least he a free ticket to watch clark play in the derby the other week.

Joking aside he probably wouldve made the squad ahead of Youngs. Thems the breaks I guess.

1 joe bugner
2 dame edna
3
4 chopper read ( enforcer )
5
6 crocidile dundee ( turnover specialist )
7 ned kelly ( pilferer )
8 elle the body

9 Kylie
10 Kostya Tszyu ( welter champ with speed )
11 Cathy Freeman
12 Mal Meninga ( just class, had to have a real sportsman in the side )
13
14
15 Sir Les Patterson ( no one getting past him without being sprayed! )

Well yes it might be controversial looking at Clark...but he's a tough physical flanker who has crossed the line a few times...but he has served the punishment that was deemed appropriate at the time..many of us (me included) maybe think it should have been longer...it wasnt.

If he can stay within the lines...and plays exceptionally well...then he must be considered.

I dont think Hawkins would have made the England squad to be honest mate...

GeordieFalcon wrote:So from an English perspective...the EPS in January could have a number of changes...hopefully.

Burns
Twelevtrees
Armitage
Garvey (big debating point)
Wade
Eastmond?
May
Callum Clark?
Daly?

Yeah I've been thinking about that myself!

Permanent changes I'd love to see are Launchberry, Burns, Twelvetrees and Johnny May. With Foden,Croft,Lawes,etc to return from injury it would give us a squad of;

Props: Corbs,Marler,Cole,Wilson
Hookers: Hartley,Webber/Youngs (don't mind which to be honest)
Locks: Parling,Launberry,Lawes,Palmer
Flankers: Croft,Wood,Haskell,Robshaw,Armitage
No 8: Morgan,Waldrom
SH: Care,Youngs,Dickson
FH: Flood,Burns
IC: Twelvetrees,Barritt,Allen
OC: Tuilagi,Joseph
Wings: Ashton,May,Monye
FB: Foden, Brown/Goode (give them the AI's to fight it out!)

Think that's a 32 man squad.

Changes I've made would be Launchberry for Botha, Armitage for Johnson, Burns for Farrell, Twelvetrees for Turner-Hall and Johnny May for Sharples.

On Johnson I'd like to justify dropping him as personally I like him as a player and disagree with much of the flak he's been getting! He's a real grafter and does a good job week in week out for Exeter and has done for England. My problem with him at International level is he does a similar job to Wood and to an extent Croft but I simply feel the later two are better players. Due to this I'd rather see Armitage brought into the squad as he offers something different to all the other options we currently have!

Yeah King...id actually have to think hard aswell about:
Palmer
Waldrom
Dickson
Monye

King,

As Armitage is playing in france, does that not mean that he doesn't need to be named in the EPS and can just be called up as and when? That means we could keep both Brown and Goode, neither of who i think deserve to be dropped.

Geordie,

Palmer has one more year in the squad in my eyes, when Launchbury, Parling and lawes get a bit more experience we can drop him for one of the knew breed (yes your mate Garvey will come in to the picture then i'm sure)

Same with Waldrom really, just one more year until the likes of Fearns and Vunipola kick him out but i am fine with him in there for now.

as for monye - i really feel its time to move on, would love to see wade and maybe eastmond in and around the squad, although maybe not starting just yet.

Dickson is a real conundrum, i don't think many would disagree that Simpson is more talented but would youngs, care and simpson all be a bit similar, does dickson add a bit of variety - for me, yes, but its down to opinion i guess.

1. Paul James
2. Matthew Rees
3. Adam Jones
4. Alun Wyn Jones
5. Ryan Jones
6. Dan Lydiate
7. Justin Tipuric
8. Toby Faletau
9. Gareth Davies
10. Gavin Henson
11. Leigh Halfpenny
12. Ashley Beck
13. Jonathan Davies
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Lee Byrne

16. Samson Lee
17. Rhys Gill
18. Richard Hibbard
19. Bradley Davies
20. Sam Warbuton
21. Mike Phillips
22. George North
23. Dan Biggar

Lyn,

Bit surprised to see Ryan Jones in the 2nd row there, is he really better there than the likes Charteris, Evans and Davies. For me he would always only be an emergency option ther at this level.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Lyn,

Bit surprised to see Ryan Jones in the 2nd row there, is he really better there than the likes Charteris, Evans and Davies. For me he would always only be an emergency option ther at this level.

I agree Beds. Ryan is a better backrow than lock, especially with excellent options like Evans and Charteris, even big Brad on form and fit is a great asset, far more combative than Jones out of position.

Omelette wrote:King,

As Armitage is playing in france, does that not mean that he doesn't need to be named in the EPS and can just be called up as and when? That means we could keep both Brown and Goode, neither of who i think deserve to be dropped.

Geordie,

Palmer has one more year in the squad in my eyes, when Launchbury, Parling and lawes get a bit more experience we can drop him for one of the knew breed (yes your mate Garvey will come in to the picture then i'm sure)

as for monye - i really feel its time to move on, would love to see wade and maybe eastmond in and around the squad, although maybe not starting just yet.

I think the extreme cases clause (not sure of its real name!) refers to players being named in the EPS permanently as well as getting called up at the last minute. By Armitage I actually meant Steffon (I don't want Delon anywhere near the squad at the moment) so doesn't really affect Brown/Goode.

On me dropping one of Brown/Goode it's simply a case of us only needing two FB's in the squad (especially when Burns and May can cover in that squad) so once Foden returns one of Brown or Goode will miss out. I agree neither has really done anything to deserve being dropped but when Foden's still the best option IMO it has to happen I'm afraid!

Agree on Palmer as I don't feel anyone else is really standing up to replace him - give Garvey/Kitchener a season to develop or Attwood to find form and that could soon change however.

As for Monye I've kept him in the squad as I still feel he's a good player not just some experience as many seem to feel. He's got a far more complete game than many of the other options. Take Eastmond and Wade for instance. Eastmond is still learning union and finding his position, whilst Wade as good as he may be ball in hand still has a lot of improving to do in defence before he's ready for international rugby!

Playing in France means the Epson contracts have no basis to override club ones so are poi less unless the player has agreements in place which arbitrage doesn't. He can be picked for England and they can demand his release during ire agreed windows but that doesn't includeHahalf the training camps the 4th ai or 6 nations rest weekends. It also means England can't manage his workload and set his fitness targets and get him to peak fitness at the times that suit them. That's why they tend not to pick French based players. It would also be a bit of a slap to thos who have turned down big money moves to commit to England. The rfu did try to aim Eps contracts trumped club ones but lost the legal arguments. Steffen knew the situation when he moved back to France and despite in his interview s saying he'd love toplay for England he seems to think it's down to the rfu to pay for his release rather than himrrenegotiating his contract. I guess having a smack habit is expensive but it's a shame he's pretty much out the picture for now

Ryan Jones is effective around the park and just about competent at lineout time. That makes him more useful to me than the other 3 big girls blouses Wales have to pick from in that position.

Lyn

Fair one each to their own though he wasn't very effective last week and picking 'just about competent' players at this level is asking for trouble surely.

Jones is an average lock at best. Ian Evans and AWJ have been in great form. Charteris needs to work hard to get back to his peak of RWC form last year. Brad needs to stop being quite so much of a donkey.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Playing in France means the Epson contracts have no basis to override club ones so are poi less unless the player has agreements in place which arbitrage doesn't. He can be picked for England and they can demand his release during ire agreed windows but that doesn't includeHahalf the training camps the 4th ai or 6 nations rest weekends. It also means England can't manage his workload and set his fitness targets and get him to peak fitness at the times that suit them. That's why they tend not to pick French based players. It would also be a bit of a slap to thos who have turned down big money moves to commit to England. The rfu did try to aim Eps contracts trumped club ones but lost the legal arguments. Steffen knew the situation when he moved back to France and despite in his interview s saying he'd love toplay for England he seems to think it's down to the rfu to pay for his release rather than himrrenegotiating his contract. I guess having a smack habit is expensive but it's a shame he's pretty much out the picture for now

Cheers for clearing up the Armitage case PSW. Sounds much like what I thought was happening. As much as it pains me to say it I'd still love to have him in the squad as I think he offers something no other flanker we have does, that said I'd still have Robshaw as my first choice!

Interesting to see Welsh posters unhappy with second row resources, although injuries and lack of form probably haven't helped of late. With Charteris,Evans,Wyn Jones and Davies there you've got some very good players if they get going though. Personally I've never been as impressed by Wyn Jones as some however, I've just never felt he does enough grunt work that a second row needs to get through. Similar fault to several of England's second row options really.

15- Foden, just about but nothing to separate Goode and Brown there
14- Ashton
13- Tuilagi at the minute, could end up being JJ
12- Barritt but I'm not sure he works with Tuilagi that well
11- Wade
10- Burns
9- Care
8- Easter (but realistically Morgan, especially with the backrow below)
7- Robshaw
6- Wood
5- Lawes
4- Parling unless Launchbury proves his potential
3- Cole
2- Hartley
1- Corbisiero

Marler/Vunipola, Gray, God Only Knows, Launchbury, Haskell/Croft or Fearns (horses for courses), Youngs, Flood, May

As GF said earlier, we have far more players all very similar in ability (if different in style) than stand-out players which is an issue for Lancaster until he can test players

15. Leigh Halfpenny
14. Alex Cuthbert
13. Jonathan Davies
12. Jamie Roberts
11. George North
10. Dan Biggar
9. Mike Phillips
8. Ryan Jones
7. Sam Warburton (c)
6. Dan Lydiate
5. Luke Charteris
4. Alun Wyn Jones
3. Adam Jones
2. Richard Hibbard
1. Rhys Gill

16. Paul James
17. Craig Mitchell
18 Matthew Rees
19. Ian Evans
20. Justin Tipuric
21. Rhys Webb/Ritchie Rees
22. Stephen Jones/Rhys Patchell (not Hook or Preistland...)
23. Scott Williams

Guys,

I'm not saying Ryan Jones is that great, after all he runs like a man wading through treacle, goes down pre contact etc. But Ian Evans, Bradley Davies and Luke Charteris; when I see these three in a welsh shirt it makes me sick to my stomach. I'll say the things that nobody else is prepared to say.

Englands best squad assuming no injuries:

Goode
Ashton
Joseph
Twelvetrees
Foden
Burns
Care
Morgan
Robshaw
Wood
Lawes
Launchbury
Wilson
Hartley
Corbisiero

Webber
Marler
Cole
Garvey
Haskell
Dickson
Farrell
Brown

LondonTiger wrote:Englands best squad assuming no injuries:

Goode
Ashton
Joseph
Twelvetrees
Foden
Burns
Care
Morgan
Robshaw
Wood
Lawes
Launchbury
Wilson
Hartley
Corbisiero

Webber
Marler
Cole
Garvey
Haskell
Dickson
Farrell
Brown

No Tuilagi? I thought you Tiger/England fans worshipped the pants off him...? Cole on the bench too, Dickson over Youngs three fullbacks in the 23...

Som very surprising suggestions there LT

MM,

Slightly tongue in cheek. Mind after todays display Cole is replaced on the bench by Harden.

LondonTiger wrote:MM,

Slightly tongue in cheek. Mind after todays display Cole is replaced on the bench by Harden.

Not on great form at the moment is he. Despite being on many people's list.

Cole is actually in very good form - for a Leicester player. However as has been proven on these boards none of the Leicester players are anywhere near good enough to play for England. the only reason they play is the tiger centric thinking of os many England coaches past and present.

Coles the only senior prop England have!


As for Ireland, I think we know what their first choice side is now. Jeepers

Cole in my opinion is the only England player we can currently argue is world class! A good scrummager and now good in the loose.

His sisters a complete div though