Your country's starting XV at full stength

So with the usual mix of strange selections at this time of the year due to injury, players being rested and this time around the Lions tour I thought this could serve as a quick relief from the Lions mania with a simple article about who you reckon your country would be fielding (or who you would field) if we had the luxury of full strength squads. As an Englishmen I'd go with the below:

1.Corbs 2.Webber 3.Cole 4.Atwood 5.Launchberry 6.Croft 7.Robshaw 8.Morgan
9.Youngs 10.Farrell 11.May 12.Twelvetrees 13.Tuilagi 14.Wade 15.Brown

As a Tigers fan it pains me to leave out Parling and Youngs in the pack but I want to see some bulk in there again which Webber and Atwood offer more of. In the backs I'd say 15 is the most competitive position with Brown in great form, Foden back to his best, Goode offering a more controlling but less attacking option and Mathew Tait looking brilliant there towards the end of the season.

Also quickly to credit the thought which made me make the thread I'll also name a Ireland XV. Whilst they may be struggling for strength in depth in places and key players have been injured, if you could get the below side fit and firing it doesn't half look dangerous!

1.Healy 2.Best 3.Ross 4.Ryan 5.POC 6.Ferris 7.O'Brien 8.Heaslip
9.Murray 10.Sexton 11.Zebo 12.Marshall 13.O'Driscoll 14.Bowe 15.Kearney

Now I don't know about everyone else but that looks pretty potent to me. I just hope Ferris especially can get back to his best, as on his day he's up there with the very best blindsides in the world.

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Ross
4. Ryan
5. POC

Back row is difficult as Ferris, SOB and Heaslip are the better individuals but that makes an unbalanced unit, it is also hard to say if Fez will play in the green again

6. SOB (or Ferris if he was fit and still playing in Ireland)
7. Chris Henry (or possibly Tommy O'Donnell)
8. Heaslip

9. Murray
10. Sexton (with Madigan improving all the time)
11. Zebo
12. Marshall (or Stuart Olding)
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

Halfpenny
North
JD
Roberts
Cuthbert
Hook
Phillips
Faletau
Tipuric
Lydiate
Ian Evans
AWJ
Adam Jones
Hibbard
Paul James

I'm not sure SL fancies May, doesn't seem to be getting a luck in on tour.

11. May
15. Brown
14. Wade

Could be amazing in attack

1. Gethin Jenkins
2. Richard Hibbard
3. Adam Jones
4. Alun Wyn Jones
5. Luke Charteris
6. Sam Warburton
7. Justin Tipuric
8. Toby Faletau
9. Mike Phillips
10. Dan Biggar
11. George North
12. Jamie Roberts
13. Jonathan Davies
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Leigh Halfpenny

16. Ken Owens
17. Paul James
18. Scott Andrews
19. Ian Evans
20. Ryan Jones
21. Lloyd Williams?
22. Rhys Preistland?
23. Scott Williams

1. Grant
2. Ford
3. Murray
4. Gray
5. Hamilton
6. Brown
7. Rennie
8. Beattie
9. Cusiter
10. Weir
11. Visser
12. Scott
13. Dunbar
14. Maitland
15. Hogg

16. Welsh
17. MacArthur
18. Low
19. Swinson
20. Denton
21. Laidlaw
22. Heathcote
23. Lamont

king_carlos wrote: As an Englishmen I'd go with the below:

1.Corbs 2.Webber 3.Cole 4.Atwood 5.Launchberry 6.Croft 7.Robshaw 8.Morgan
9.Youngs 10.Farrell 11.May 12.Twelvetrees 13.Tuilagi 14.Wade 15.Brown

I think there are really tough calls at:
1: Corbs, probably ahead of Vanipola and Marler
2: Webber or Youngs - Hartley's holiday has probably pushed him down to 3rd.
6: Croft or Wood
7: Robshaw of Kvesic (Kvesic is more specialist but Robshaw will hold his place for now).
10: Farrell or Burns
11: May, Yarde or Ashton if he shows club form. Hopefully May and Yarde can get some game time next Saturday.
15: Brown or Foden
Captain: Neither Wood nor Robshaw are guaranteed starters.

1. Paul James
2. Richard Hibbard
3. Adam Jones
4. Ian Evans
5. Luke Charteris
6. Dan Lydiate
7. Justin Tipuric
8. Toby Faletau

9. Mike Phillips
10. Dan Biggar

11. George North
12. Jamie Roberts
13. Jonathan Davies
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Leigh Halfpenny

16. Ken Owens
17. Rhys Gill
18. Craig Mitchell
19. AWJ
20. Sam Warburton
21. No9????
22. Rhys Preistland
23. Scott Williams

1. Corbisiero
2. Youngs
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Attwood
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8.Morgan
9. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. Ashton
12. Twelvetrees
13. Tuilagi
14. Wade
15. Foden

1. Vunipola
2. Youngs
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Parling
6. Croft
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan
9. Youngs
10. Flood - in top for he offers considerably more ball in hand
11. Wade
12. Barritt - watching Daly glide past Twelvetrees in the Baabaas game reminds me why we need a defensive general in the centres.
13. Manu
14. Ashton - in form he is quality.
15. Goode - in form offers more footballing and tactical options than his contemporaries.

Bench: Corbs, Webber, Wilson, Attwood, Kvesic (covers back row), Care, Burns, Daly (covers 11 to 15 and is class).

Sam are you secretly stu Lancaster?

Corbs
Webber
Cole
Launchberry
Attwood
Croft
Robshaw
Morgan
Youngs
Burns
Wade
Twelvetrees
Tuilagi
Yarde
Foden

Wilson
Youngs
Vunipola
Lawes
Wood
Care
Flood
Tait

Sam are you secretly stu Lancaster?

Hell no Chris. For starters I'd not select a pack with so little carrying options in a 6N game.

The likes of Ashton and Goode are top quality when in form. They weren't in form towards the end of the season (Goode was injured) but that wasn't the OPs question.

Our sides aren't that different.

123456789 wrote:1. Grant
2. Ford
3. Murray
4. Gray
5. Hamilton
6. Brown
7. Rennie
8. Beattie
9. Cusiter
10. Weir
11. Visser
12. Scott
13. Dunbar
14. Maitland
15. Hogg

16. Welsh
17. MacArthur
18. Low
19. Swinson
20. Denton
21. Laidlaw
22. Heathcote
23. Lamont

I entirely agree. Fingers crossed we get to see that some day!!

I think Corbs was easily the pick of the English loose heads - but come Autumn it would not surprise me at all if hes behind MV

I'd also say that seeing as we are in a position of increasing strength, a number of very good current players are going to be displaced. These are likely to include Brown, Goode, Barritt, possibly Parling, Ashton.

lostinwales wrote:I think Corbs was easily the pick of the English loose heads - but come Autumn it would not surprise me at all if hes behind MV

It's a nice decision to have. I'd be tempted to start with Corbs and use Vunipola as impact, perhaps along with his brother coming on for Morgan around the 60 minute mark.

From starting with zero ball carrying options in the 6 Nations, Lancaster now has more strong ball carrying options than he can accommodate!

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sam are you secretly stu Lancaster?

Hell no Chris. For starters I'd not select a pack with so little carrying options in a 6N game.

The likes of Ashton and Goode are top quality when in form. They weren't in form towards the end of the season (Goode was injured) but that wasn't the OPs question.

Our sides aren't that different.

I can understand the argument for barrit, and Ashton back in 2010 was unbelievable and IF he can find that form again then he should be in there, my main issue is with Goode, he is the safe option with his two benefits seemingly being he reads the game well so is always there to catch a territorial kick, and he can play 2nd reciever, well personally whenever I've seen him in an England shirt the 2nd receiver thing never really worked and in my mind attack should be created by a ball playing 10/12, he also struggled to ever beat the first man running from deep (which he hardly ever did! ) he does this awkward and slow double shuffle then gets caught, by a prop on one occasion! I reckon picking him is very negative and perhaps in very wet conditions he is the right guy but I'd much prefer an in form foden, hitting gaps at pace, popping up all over the shop and beating defenders from deep, or a well rounded hard running Brown who does everything well and is not afraid to
Attack by running and not kicking

Goode might be a good bench option to cover 10 and 15.

As stated by many, his playmaking is not so valuable if 36 is playing centre, but useful if Barrit is in the team.

I think Foden and Brown will be contendors for 15 and Bench. Sadly we didn't see enough of Brown at FB in the 6N. Of the three, only Foden has the attributes to be a winger.

Right now, I'd start Brown (with 36 and Tuilagi in the centres), and have Foden on the bench covering the back 3 (and perhaps scrum half? Though is Christian Wade our new scrum half cover?)

I'm amazed that many people have dropped Parling from their best England team. Seemingly based on a couple of games against very weak opposition.

HammerofThunor wrote:I'm amazed that many people have dropped Parling from their best England team. Seemingly based on a couple of games against very weak opposition.

Parling is not the sort of player to excite fans. Not big, not flashy but the sort that players and coaches love to have in their team. He is likely to be one of Lancasters selections through to 2015.

I think for England we need to be quite clear, that there is some good signs from this tour...BUT its very weak opposition. Lets see how some of these guys go against much sterner opposition.

Parling is a curious one indeed. He did play well in the 6n...
I think people preceive him as a lightweight option (he's still 18st i believe) and doesnt offer that bulk. Yet he certainly made his carries , hit ruck after ruck and worked his backside off. And by all accounts his cameos in Oz have been pretty useful aswell.

Alex Goode, should not be the 15. Its Foden or Brown for me. Different styles but both can attack well.

Robshaw has been so impressive, but he must realise now that he finally has some serious competition snapping at his heals...(Kvesic, Fraser, even Wallace his fellow quin).

And whilst he may be the defensive general....Barritt has to be moved along. I'd rather take the chance on Twelvetrees in future games.

1 Corbs (Vunipola off the bench)
2 Youngs
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Attwood
6 Croft / Wood (cant decide)
7 Robshaw (Kvesic, Fraser, Wallace right on his heals though)
8 Morgan

9 Youngs
10 Burns
11 Yarde
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tuilagi
14 Wade
15 Brown / Foden

Goode is the secure option at the back. Can spark a counter attack with quick hands and kicks well out of hand. Foden looks defensively weak since his return from injury though he has found hos sparkling attacking game again. Brown and Foden too often run when too little is on. Neither have the accuracy or vision to drop the ball over the opposition winger and force a lineout deep in opposition territory.

All three have their weaknesses so It's a trade off unless Tait continues his development and irons out his remaining issues or young Watson has a flying start at Bath as he really does look a prospect.

The problem is Sam i just havent seen all this creativity from Goode. If he was actually making things happen i could understand.

Hes in there to be the creation for Barrit..and i think Farrell aswell which is a worry in itself...

At least with Foden and Brown they are capable of making things happen...and not just razmatazz things. Id prefer their strike running from 15, with others in the backline providing the playmaking ability.

What I feel about full back is that when Foden gets the ball in a bit of space it feels exciting - you know if he can find a gap hes going to make a lot of ground - he 'scares' the opposition. He also has an excellent pass. With Brown I dont get that, because even though he'll be shrugging off tackles and making good ground you know that eventually he will be stopped. I feel Brown has every skill to be an excellent full back at club level, but at international level Foden offers more

It truly speaks volumes about how easy it is to predict an Irish starting XV.

Always has been that I can remember. We must be the easiest team in world rugby to analyse.

All this talk of fullback options for England and yet no discussion of the lovely eloquent individual that is Delon Armitage......

Stag - it'll be interesting to see if Schmidt conforms the Irish XV to expectations next season. Everyone is including BOD, but do people not think he may retire from international rugby after the Lions, allowing centres like Marshall, Olding, Cave and Earls (if you think of him as a centre) a shot? I also wonder whether Trimble or Bowe may be persuaded to move to 13, or Madigan used at 12?

I think the Irish pack is easier to predict over the next year or so, but I think Schmidt might make some changes to the established order in the backline.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

123456789 wrote:1. Grant
2. Ford
3. Murray
4. Gray
5. Hamilton
6. Brown
7. Rennie
8. Beattie
9. Cusiter
10. Weir
11. Visser
12. Scott
13. Dunbar
14. Maitland
15. Hogg

16. Welsh
17. MacArthur
18. Low
19. Swinson
20. Denton
21. Laidlaw
22. Heathcote
23. Lamont

I entirely agree. Fingers crossed we get to see that some day!!

How do you rate Grove's chances of forcing his way back into the side? Personally I really rate him highly and that would be my only change in the sides you've named. I'd also be tempted to start Laidlaw but Cusiter offers more of threat round the fringes and gives good service so I can see why you'd want him back.

HammerofThunor wrote:I'm amazed that many people have dropped Parling from their best England team. Seemingly based on a couple of games against very weak opposition.

For me and others I think it's a case of searching for balance in the pack. Parling is a real work horse, great at the set piece, good hands, very strong over the ball (he was outstanding there vs NZ) but does lack that bit of bulk I think many of us want to see in the pack.

Atwood offers that bit of extra physicality and carrying so many would like to see him paired with Launchberry who really is growing with every game at the moment. No way that Parling is going to drop out of my 23 for the time being but if Launchberry is fit there is a big part of me that would like to see him partnered with someone like Atwood alongside a bigger front row with the likes of Corbs and Webber in it.

At full strength, fit and on form I think Wales' best match day squad would be

Halfpenny, Cuthbert, Davies, Roberts, North, Priestland, Phillips;
Faletau, Warburton, Lydiate, AW Jones, Evans, A Jones, Owens, Jenkins.
Bench-: Hibbard, James, Lee, R Jones, Tipuric; Knoyle, Biggar, Li Williams

However going on last seasons form I would have to say Biggar, Tipuric, Hibbard and James would be first choice over Priestland, Warburton (or Lydiate), Owens, and Jenkins, and most likely Ll Williams on the bench instead of Knoyle (seeing as Tav seems not to be involved other than in training for either Wales or the Scarlets this year).

1 Corbisiero
2 Youngs
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Parling
6 Wood
7 Fraser
8 Morgan
9 Youngs
10 Farrell
11 Wade
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tuilagi
14 Yarde
15 Brown

16 Vunipola
17 Webber
18 Wilson
19 Attwood
20 Croft
21 Care
22 Burns
23 Joseph

Bonesaw's ready wrote:Halfpenny
North
JD
Roberts
Cuthbert
Hook
Phillips
Faletau
Tipuric
Lydiate
Ian Evans
AWJ
Adam Jones
Hibbard
Paul James

So close, yet so far

king_carlos wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I'm amazed that many people have dropped Parling from their best England team. Seemingly based on a couple of games against very weak opposition.

For me and others I think it's a case of searching for balance in the pack. Parling is a real work horse, great at the set piece, good hands, very strong over the ball (he was outstanding there vs NZ) but does lack that bit of bulk I think many of us want to see in the pack.

Atwood offers that bit of extra physicality and carrying so many would like to see him paired with Launchberry who really is growing with every game at the moment. No way that Parling is going to drop out of my 23 for the time being but if Launchberry is fit there is a big part of me that would like to see him partnered with someone like Atwood alongside a bigger front row with the likes of Corbs and Webber in it.

Parling is just as big as Attwood. And he brought real physicality during the 6 nations. I'd have him over Attwood and Launchbury.

NB I think I must be missing something with Launchbury as well. I've seen him get knocked back in tackles and miss them himself. Yes he's been good, especially for his age but I've not seen what everyone else seems to be seeing.

IMO

1- Corbisiero
2- Youngs
3- Cole
4- Launchbury
5- Parling
6- Wood
7- Robshaw
8- Morgan
9- Youngs
10- Farrell (just)
11- Wade
12- Twelvetrees
13- Tuilagi
14- Yarde
15- Brown/Foden

16- Mako 17- Webber 18- Wilson 19- Attwood 20- Kvesic/Croft 21- Care 22- Burns 23- Foden/May

I admit to not knowing why there should be any material difference, but Wade seems to always play right wing, while I am pretty sure that Yarde was left wing when LI visited Welford Rd.

lostinwales wrote:What I feel about full back is that when Foden gets the ball in a bit of space it feels exciting - you know if he can find a gap hes going to make a lot of ground - he 'scares' the opposition. He also has an excellent pass. With Brown I dont get that, because even though he'll be shrugging off tackles and making good ground you know that eventually he will be stopped. I feel Brown has every skill to be an excellent full back at club level, but at international level Foden offers more

Tait will be an option next autumn.

Agree with LT(wasn't it) that Parling is a very good bet to go through to 2015. Unfussy, unspectacular, often unnoticed at the coal face but a first-class operator.

is it me or are most people picking the "flashy spectacular" player over the one that does the dirty work and the unglamourous side of the game?

A bit like kevin Kegans Newcastle, you might score 5 trys against us but we will score 6

Looseheaded wrote:

Bonesaw's ready wrote:Halfpenny
North
JD
Roberts
Cuthbert
Hook
Phillips
Faletau
Tipuric
Lydiate
Ian Evans
AWJ
Adam Jones
Hibbard
Paul James

So close, yet so far

Ha ha. Well, I like him.

I think it's always been a bit of a myth that Hook can't 'control' a game from Fly Half, pre 2011 WC I couldn't name a time when he looked out of his depth for Wales in that position. I think it was just assumed that he was a liability with interceptions and the like but I honestly thought he was Wales best 10 of that era. Look at the 08 Grand Slam, first choice for the first two games, played brilliantly and then was dropped for Stephen Jones when it was assumed Wales needed a safer pair of hands at 10.

Never got a look in during Rhys Priestland's yips in the autumn, which was a shame. I know it's 2013 now but I still think he could prove to be the man

LondonTiger wrote:I admit to not knowing why there should be any material difference, but Wade seems to always play right wing, while I am pretty sure that Yarde was left wing when LI visited Welford Rd.

I freely admit that I just put the wingers on wings as I don't know who is a right winger and who is a left winger

Knackeredknees wrote:is it me or are most people picking the "flashy spectacular" player over the one that does the dirty work and the unglamourous side of the game?

A bit like kevin Kegans Newcastle, you might score 5 trys against us but we will score 6

I think it's just a phase Knackered.
There seems to be a bizarre trend for people to want tries.
Seems pretty silly to me as a try only extends the elapsed time between events that the game is all about.
Scrummaging

greytiger wrote:

Knackeredknees wrote:is it me or are most people picking the "flashy spectacular" player over the one that does the dirty work and the unglamourous side of the game?

A bit like kevin Kegans Newcastle, you might score 5 trys against us but we will score 6

I think it's just a phase Knackered.
There seems to be a bizarre trend for people to want tries.
Seems pretty silly to me as a try only extends the elapsed time between events that the game is all about.
Scrummaging

We won an AP on that approach! Admittedly then people worked it out and we struggled to score as much. But the real aim is be able to do both the gritty stuff and the flashy stuff

It must be only me that thinks flood is still englands best fly half as no one has him in their team...

Ridiculous to drop parling, all other options still lacking a bit of experience and you rarely see parling have a bad game.

Ashton also still very much in the mix also. Wade has to be in the team for me, he is the most exciting winger around and can beat players and score tries at the top level in my opinion. the likes of may and yarde are going to push for selection next season though.

How many AP matches are there before the first Autumn Test? TBH a lot of the selection will be done there

Big fan of Parling myself. Haven't seen enough English domestic rugby to have an opinion on Launchbury but Parling would have always made my Lions squad

probably this

1 Woodcock
2 Mealamu
3 O Franks
4 Retallick
5 S Whitelock
6 Messam
7 God
8 Read

9 Weepu
10 Carter
11 Savea
12 Nonu
13 C Smith
14 Jane
15 Dagg

Yes awfully predictble isnt it dallym...when I look at it, is it the side that can win the WCup in xv...probably not..the back line now looks long in the tooth...

It's definitely tough. on current form, Woody and the two old hookers will be gone by then, and Ma'a and Conrad are 50/50 due to their age. Shag should get the team sorted though

dallym wrote:It's definitely tough. on current form, Woody and the two old hookers will be gone by then, and Ma'a and Conrad are 50/50 due to their age. Shag should get the team sorted though

Only 2 years away before we'll know virtually who'll be in the squad. Not a lot of time to get some real experience behind any newbies now- the TJP's, Luatua's, Piatau's etc let alone the front row....man time flies...

greytiger wrote:

Knackeredknees wrote:is it me or are most people picking the "flashy spectacular" player over the one that does the dirty work and the unglamourous side of the game?

A bit like kevin Kegans Newcastle, you might score 5 trys against us but we will score 6

I think it's just a phase Knackered.
There seems to be a bizarre trend for people to want tries.
Seems pretty silly to me as a try only extends the elapsed time between events that the game is all about.
Scrummaging

On the contrary i think people are more than happy with the idea of girtty dirty workers in at the coalface. This is a work ethic i applaud Lancs for bringing in.

The problem is balance.
He's built the squad based on solid defensive players, breakdown players etc...thus he's set the platform (which was needed) and we are a tough side to play against and beat. Players like Barritt, Farrell etc served a purpose especially Barritt.

However, it is clear for all and sundry that offensively we couldnt threaten a barn door...and this is why people want to see changes coming through - its called progression.
For example Chris Ashton has his critics...but this current set up is simply stifling him.

So now we have to move forward and replace NOT ALL but a couple of these dependable players with ones who can make a bit more happen. Barritt v Twelvetrees is a great example...or any 12 that offers more creativity..Allen has been mentioned many times.
Whilst many say Twelvetrees isnt as solid defensively...he offers much more ball in hand. And this is now what we have to look at.

A team needs to have 100% work ethic...players battling at the coal face...and we have that in bucket loads...but now we need to just move that step forward and bring in a couple of door openers...the ones who still graft...but have that little bit extra now that allows us to open up other teams defences..

England are going about things in the right way.

Lancaster needed to have a 100% high work ethic system both on and off the pitch.

Its so much easier to tell a handful of flashy players to buck the trend when the opportunity arises than to get a Barbarian style team to batten down the hatches.

England will evolve and will be a major contender for the 2015 RWC.

Stag im not saying completely change everything.

The platform has been laid, Lancs has done a great job...we have a solid defensive, worklike team...

Im saying we need to start to progress...not flood the team with flashy unworklike pre-madonnas....im saying we need to slowly bring in a few players that can actually scare the opposition now...not simply go out with a defensive based lineup.

I agree with you on that. If you had a creative centre, encouraged more sniping Matt Dawson style runs from Youngs, a back three player with the ability to create something from nothing and a more effective link player in your backrow you'd be flying it.

Wade is needed in your team I think. Twelvetrees time will come too. Those two players will add a lot to your team. I don't know all the backrow options but I think that Wood, Robshaw and Morgan are fine but you lack a backrow with some legs and top link play. Could Tom Croft return to the fold. A great guy to have in the wider channels similar style to Harinordoquy or O'Mahony.