Farrell Jr and Manu Tuilagi - how can they improve?

by beshocked Thu 29 Nov 2012, 10:15 am

These are two young players both only 21 who I think both have decent skills in certain areas. Farrell is tough mentally with a decent defense and is a good goal kicker. Manu Tuilagi is a raw attacking talent whose a real handful and has a decent try strike rate at international level. Both players have a lot of potential in my opinion but clear areas to work upon.

Both players in particular have been getting a lot of criticism. Probably deservedly so but the question is two fold - firstly how can they improve their game and how do they do this?

How for example people have said Farrell is too slow. how can he become quicker? Can he?

You can say well Tuilagi needs to learn to pass the ball more and Farrell needs to be more creative but technically how do you think they can do this?

It's easy to criticize but let's get some solutions. What should these players be changing to improve?

How did Nonu for example actually become an all rounder?

Thoughts?

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Thu 29 Nov 2012, 10:23 am

Try sending Tuilagi down to the Hurricanes for a couple of years.

(I'd suggest the Chiefs and Wayne Smith but he'd be stuck on their bench)

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 29 Nov 2012, 10:25 am

Have children, then teach them how to pass.

by Jimpy Thu 29 Nov 2012, 10:27 am

The simple fact is that neither player is anything but a good club level player. I doubt either could be improved significantly. Personally, I think its time for SL to end his experiment with both of them.

by beshocked Thu 29 Nov 2012, 10:34 am

Pete C interesting but do you think it would be wise for Tuilagi to sit behind Conrad Smith? He could potentially learn a lot of course but it would be a huge gamble. It would mean giving up his star status at Leicester and put his England career on hold. Ultimately every player wants to be starting. Even if Tuilagi becomes an excellent player he wouldn't supplant Smith.

Or are you thinking he should become a 12?

PSW that might help England in the long term but in the short term?

Jimpy I think it's a little harsh to write both players off at only 21.

Anyone got any solutions closer to home?

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Thu 29 Nov 2012, 10:39 am

beshocked wrote:Pete C interesting but do you think it would be wise for Tuilagi to sit behind Conrad Smith? He could potentially learn a lot of course but it would be a huge gamble. It would mean giving up his star status at Leicester and put his England career on hold. Ultimately every player wants to be starting. Even if Tuilagi becomes an excellent player he wouldn't supplant Smith.

Or are you thinking he should become a 12?

PSW that might help England in the long term but in the short term?

Jimpy I think it's a little harsh to write both players off at only 21.

Anyone got any solutions closer to home?

Who better to learn distribution off than Smith? Not to mention defensive co-ordination. And Smith was in partnership with Nonu throughout Nonu's time learning distribution at 12.

Otherwise, BOD can't have long left at Leinster ...

by mr_stonelea Thu 29 Nov 2012, 10:41 am

People are a bit harsh on Manu - I think it's clear that he's been told to take bad ball on himself, and good ball pass it on. Playing for England at the moment means he only receives bad ball.

He is also only 21 and yet is our only attacking weapon. That's quite a responsibility for the lad. There's no one else making breaks for him to latch onto.

by beshocked Thu 29 Nov 2012, 10:47 am

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
beshocked wrote:Pete C interesting but do you think it would be wise for Tuilagi to sit behind Conrad Smith? He could potentially learn a lot of course but it would be a huge gamble. It would mean giving up his star status at Leicester and put his England career on hold. Ultimately every player wants to be starting. Even if Tuilagi becomes an excellent player he wouldn't supplant Smith.

Or are you thinking he should become a 12?

PSW that might help England in the long term but in the short term?

Jimpy I think it's a little harsh to write both players off at only 21.

Anyone got any solutions closer to home?

Who better to learn distribution off than Smith? Not to mention defensive co-ordination. And Smith was in partnership with Nonu throughout Nonu's time learning distribution at 12.

Otherwise, BOD can't have long left at Leinster ...

That would certainly be interesting - Manu moving to 12 and partnering Smith at 13 for the Hurricanes.

Any solution for Farrell?

by Jimpy Thu 29 Nov 2012, 10:52 am

beshocked wrote:Pete C interesting but do you think it would be wise for Tuilagi to sit behind Conrad Smith? He could potentially learn a lot of course but it would be a huge gamble. It would mean giving up his star status at Leicester and put his England career on hold. Ultimately every player wants to be starting. Even if Tuilagi becomes an excellent player he wouldn't supplant Smith.

Or are you thinking he should become a 12?

PSW that might help England in the long term but in the short term?

Jimpy I think it's a little harsh to write both players off at only 21.

Anyone got any solutions closer to home?

I don't think so. A player has either 'got it' or he hasn't. Its quite obvious to me that neither 'has it' (whatever 'it' is). Coaching can only take a chap so far, its time England stopped metaphorically bashing its head against the wall trying to bring on players who are quite clealry limited at international level instead of bringing in chaps who are showing very good club form and might well make the transition with aplomb.

It matters not that Messers Farrell & Tuilagi are only 21, they've had their chances (plenty) and are demonstrably not up to scratch. Besides, i want Tuilagi playing for his club week in week out, not being fed shoite ball from a mish mash of half backs at England.

by beshocked Thu 29 Nov 2012, 10:58 am

Who in your opinion has "got it". I don't think it's simplistic as you make out.

Players can improve that's pretty obvious. Look at Nonu and Brown. I know Brown hasn't had a chance in the 15 shirt yet but he's managed to become a better player in the last two years.

Maybe it's a change of scenery aka Sir Jonny.

Of course it doesn't work for every player e.g. Cipriani.

These two players have some great core skills. Sure they have flaws but I think in the right environment and right work being done they can improve.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 29 Nov 2012, 11:03 am

Some players though do have that stand out international head. This is tru eof both Tuilagi and Farrell who from day one looked assured at this level, even if they have flawed games.

They are both stand up guys.

I also beleive they are both players who can be coached.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 29 Nov 2012, 11:09 am

Farrell needs plenty of game time at 10 for Sarries - playing a game that requires him to do more than kick. Hodgson is in front of him though - especially when Sarries look to put pace on the ball and attack. He can work on things like speed with a decent sprint coach - but in the end he has to be playing week in week out doing the things england need.

With Manu is it he cannot pass, or doe not pass. A very subtle difference - but it is there. with the way England (and at times tigers) play using Manu as a bosh merchant is more sesible than shovelling out carp ball to enable wingers to get mashed.

Farrell and Manu will not turn into Carter and Conrad Smith. No reason they cannot become as good as Wilkinson and Nonu though.

Any way in many ways, these two have the same issues as much of the England team. Still settling into International rugby, they are finding that it is much quicker, much more physical and much more intense. It takes time to bring your entire skillset to the party. Take Manu - he needs to learn how and when to pass to wingers that are much tighter marked than in club rugby. For Farrell he has less time to make decisions - and thus stands a bit deeper than at club level.

Finally on these isles we are worse than the aussies at "tall poppy syndrome". We build em up and then when people fail to live up to the crazy expectations we knock em back down again.

6 months ago Farrell was deemed by many to be a near certainty for the Lions tour - and his performances were good enough to secure enough points to feature on the IRB PoTY list. Manu was (alongside north over the border) being hailed as a player that would match anything the sH could offer. Suddenly both Manu and North are getting criticism from home fans (many fan teams for this weekend omit both) yet are doingthe same things.

We as fans need to be less fickle.

by beshocked Thu 29 Nov 2012, 11:15 am

True PSW.

Nice post LondonTiger I agree.

I suppose the difficulty is when do you let go. When do you make the decision a player can't cut it?

I agree as fans we have such high expectations.

by screamingaddabs Thu 29 Nov 2012, 11:16 am

LT is right.

The important thing with Manu and Farrell is that they have the skills already that are hard/impossible to teach. You can't teach Farrell's cool head under pressure very easily (see hodgson) and you can't teach Manu's Physical power and enjoyment of the physical side of things.

What Farrell needs is some good attack coach training. Like LT says, he won't be Carter, but he may be a good Wilko.

What Manu needs is some decision making.

Basically both of these things require a good coach and some TIME for them to get the required experience.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Thu 29 Nov 2012, 11:20 am

beshocked wrote:
Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
beshocked wrote:Pete C interesting but do you think it would be wise for Tuilagi to sit behind Conrad Smith? He could potentially learn a lot of course but it would be a huge gamble. It would mean giving up his star status at Leicester and put his England career on hold. Ultimately every player wants to be starting. Even if Tuilagi becomes an excellent player he wouldn't supplant Smith.

Or are you thinking he should become a 12?

PSW that might help England in the long term but in the short term?

Jimpy I think it's a little harsh to write both players off at only 21.

Anyone got any solutions closer to home?

Who better to learn distribution off than Smith? Not to mention defensive co-ordination. And Smith was in partnership with Nonu throughout Nonu's time learning distribution at 12.

Otherwise, BOD can't have long left at Leinster ...

That would certainly be interesting - Manu moving to 12 and partnering Smith at 13 for the Hurricanes.

Any solution for Farrell?

You could try and persuade Sarries to sign Quade Cooper to learn off ...

Or if Quade stays in Oz get Farrell playing 12 for the Reds.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 29 Nov 2012, 11:23 am

screamingaddabs wrote:LT is right.

The important thing with Manu and Farrell is that they have the skills already that are hard/impossible to teach. You can't teach Farrell's cool head under pressure very easily (see hodgson) and you can't teach Manu's Physical power and enjoyment of the physical side of things.

What Farrell needs is some good attack coach training. Like LT says, he won't be Carter, but he may be a good Wilko.

What Manu needs is some decision making.

Basically both of these things require a good coach and some TIME for them to get the required experience.

They also need to be encouraged to lift their heads and play what they see - not what they have been drilled to do in training. Sadly this is a criticism you could level at English Rugby ever since I started watching. Briefly Brian Ashton as attack coach at the turn of the century had backs and forwards playing a good brand of heads up rugby. One Lions tour with Graham henry and the pod system he insisted on while up here destroyed that.

so there you go it is all Graham Henry's fault Very Happy

by Bathman_in_London Thu 29 Nov 2012, 11:34 am

Interesting topic. Firslty, I agree with LT, Farrell has gone from being 'the next Wilko' to apparently someone who wouldn't make the Reading Abbey 3rd XV. Fans and media alike are very fickle (I know I am too, we are all guilty of it!).

But regarding the players, I think what Farrell really needs in some decent time at 10 for Sarries. The bad news for him is that Hodgson is first choice and playing well. The good news is that Hodgson is arguablly the best attacking English flyhalf since Stuart Barnes, so there is no better person to learn off.

Farrell has the temperament for International rugby, is solid in defence and has a great boot on him. So if just a bit of Hodgson's attacking flair could rub off on him he could be a really good player. Attacking flair can be learnt though, Wilkinson used to train hard with Robinson to improve his step, I think Farrell will be capable of doing just the same but it will take time, hard work and time at 10.

A question for beshocked, do Sarries run different patterns when Farrell is at 10? If so it would be good for England if they didnt! Really force him into Hodgsons running game.

Tuilagi... I think the issue for England is that he is the only player who can seemingly go forward. If the game plan involved other players taking the ball up when needed and other players taking responsibilty for that (12 needs to be involved too) I think with time we would see more vision and creativity from him.

I also wonder with Tuilagi, after years of being the biggest kid and presumably scoring 5 tries a game at school/junior level has yet to fully adapt to senior level where he can't bosh people so much? It sounds a bit stupid I know, but the 2 points are linked. All through his career he has been the main option to take the ball up and with better support he might mature a bit of rely on his team-mates.

by Jimpy Thu 29 Nov 2012, 11:35 am

beshocked wrote:True PSW.

Nice post LondonTiger I agree.

I suppose the difficulty is when do you let go. When do you make the decision a player can't cut it?I agree as fans we have such high expectations.

Well thats the real trick isn't it - unfortunately, England have a 9 year history of not being able to work that out.

by Guest Thu 29 Nov 2012, 11:45 am

Interesting article on tuilagi from the Rugby Paper here:

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/featured-post/manu-tuilagi-can-turn-into-a-playmaker-like-maa-nonu/

the comparison with a young Ma'a Nonu is interesting.

by screamingaddabs Thu 29 Nov 2012, 11:50 am

mawhis wrote:Interesting article on tuilagi from the Rugby Paper here:

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/featured-post/manu-tuilagi-can-turn-into-a-playmaker-like-maa-nonu/

the comparison with a young Ma'a Nonu is interesting.

The question really then is "Are the coaches at England and Leicester good enough to get the best out of Manu?"

Discuss.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 29 Nov 2012, 11:59 am

yep he could be the new Banahan

by Jimpy Thu 29 Nov 2012, 12:04 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:yep he could be the new Banahan

Are you out of your mind? You mean Big Les surely?

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 29 Nov 2012, 12:07 pm

So you favour putting him on the wing? Its been mentioned by others.

by Geordie Thu 29 Nov 2012, 12:33 pm

Manu is doing just fine....the problem is the rest of the stagnant momentum-less England game plan. No quick ball, no forwards hitting the ball at pace...etc etc.

You could put Conrad Smith in there and the result would not change because theres nothing coming from further in...as per Oz game the defenders were barely stretched.

Possibly 10 and 12 need addressing...

And for others suggesting Joseph...ive seen NOTHING yet to suggest he'd have any better impact than Manu.

As for Farrell...well yeah as said above...he needs to be the starting 10 for Sarries. Otherwise he needs to pack his bags and head elsewhere so he can be the starting 10.
Maybe a season down under might improve his skills...or extra coaching lessons with say Brian Ashton or some top class coach whos available for extra sessions.

by HammerofThunor Thu 29 Nov 2012, 12:52 pm

I say what I've said before...who is Manu supposed to be passing to? When he made the intercept his pass to Ashton was great, while running at full tilt. His passing is fine and his offloading is fine. There is just usually nobody to pass to or offload to. If Sharples is on the wing and there are 3 defenders in front should Manu be passing it to him? Or should he bosh up and try and make some forward momentum, which we will surely waste in some way in the next phase.

by Sgt_Pooly Thu 29 Nov 2012, 12:57 pm

Farrell lacks an attacking instinct, that's hard to coach. I'm unsure he will ever be the player we want him to be.

Tuilagi is a different kettle of fish, he's a fantastic ball carrier but needs to address other aspects of his game which will come. We need a better 12 than Barritt to bring out our attacking game. Burns, 36 etc are all options.

by Chjw131 Thu 29 Nov 2012, 1:05 pm

beshocked wrote:
Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
beshocked wrote:Pete C interesting but do you think it would be wise for Tuilagi to sit behind Conrad Smith? He could potentially learn a lot of course but it would be a huge gamble. It would mean giving up his star status at Leicester and put his England career on hold. Ultimately every player wants to be starting. Even if Tuilagi becomes an excellent player he wouldn't supplant Smith.

Or are you thinking he should become a 12?

PSW that might help England in the long term but in the short term?

Jimpy I think it's a little harsh to write both players off at only 21.

Anyone got any solutions closer to home?

Who better to learn distribution off than Smith? Not to mention defensive co-ordination. And Smith was in partnership with Nonu throughout Nonu's time learning distribution at 12.

Otherwise, BOD can't have long left at Leinster ...

That would certainly be interesting - Manu moving to 12 and partnering Smith at 13 for the Hurricanes.

Any solution for Farrell?

An interesting topic beshocked. Firstly, I think that moving Manu to 12 isn't really the long-term answer. It's perpetuated as an idea on the basis of him being a 'crash ball' 12 aka Jamie Roberts. That's fine if all you want or expect from Tuilagi is pretty much what he delivers now with some work on an offloading game.

Actually I feel he has some excellent talent and core skills. He can pass well and he can break with the best of them with a surprising turn of speed for someone who weighs in at over 17 stone. What he needs to work on at 13 are his awareness of space/players outside and inside him, his acceleration over 20m and a short kicking game. If you were to combine a player like Henry Trinder with Tuilagi you'd have a great centre.

Development is certainly not beyond Manu. He's a very young guy and could do with some intensive coaching from the likes of Will Greenwood and Mike Tindall (defensive positioning only!).

As far as Owen Farrell goes, we know his basic temperament and kicking from the tee are excellent. Combined with a very good short kicking game. In terms of his awareness, passing and instinct for attack he needs to get flatter and feel confident in his passing and kicking game to deal with the pressure that brings. I think we all accept that he's a Fly Half but with Charlie at Sarries i'd play him at 12 alongside Charlie. Week in week out he'll be dragged up closer to the line by CH and can witness how Charlie uses the space and pass. I think that would help him a great deal if done consistently.

by Chjw131 Thu 29 Nov 2012, 1:10 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Farrell lacks an attacking instinct, that's hard to coach. I'm unsure he will ever be the player we want him to be.

Tuilagi is a different kettle of fish, he's a fantastic ball carrier but needs to address other aspects of his game which will come. We need a better 12 than Barritt to bring out our attacking game. Burns, 36 etc are all options.

Pooly i'd be inclined to agree with you on Farrell, but he deserves a chance to improve the attacking skills of his game. In SA you could see that he was attempting to throw the attacking pass but didn't look comfortable. I feel he lacks real confidence (odd to say of Farrell) in executing his skills flatter to the line.

by HammerofThunor Thu 29 Nov 2012, 1:13 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong but having you 10 make 'attacking' passes requires the players to be there for the ball. Or do they just appear? Are we having loads of clever attacking runs that Farell isn't picking up? Are the wide open spaces for Farell the run through that's not seeing? Surely what we need is several option available to him and then him pick the best one. If he can't do that then he's not much good. If their aren't any options then he can't be blaimed

by Chjw131 Thu 29 Nov 2012, 1:21 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but having you 10 make 'attacking' passes requires the players to be there for the ball. Or do they just appear? Are we having loads of clever attacking runs that Farell isn't picking up? Are the wide open spaces for Farell the run through that's not seeing? Surely what we need is several option available to him and then him pick the best one. If he can't do that then he's not much good. If their aren't any options then he can't be blaimed

It's not that there aren't options it's that he's not the confidence to play flat, pass well and turn those options into potential chances to break. Saracens score many more tries with CH at the helm, that's not just because suddenly loads of options are being put around him.

Farrell's confidence with those skills need intensive work. I have to say I don't think that should be done in an England context.

by Bathite Thu 29 Nov 2012, 1:27 pm

Jimpy wrote:
beshocked wrote:Pete C interesting but do you think it would be wise for Tuilagi to sit behind Conrad Smith? He could potentially learn a lot of course but it would be a huge gamble. It would mean giving up his star status at Leicester and put his England career on hold. Ultimately every player wants to be starting. Even if Tuilagi becomes an excellent player he wouldn't supplant Smith.

Or are you thinking he should become a 12?

PSW that might help England in the long term but in the short term?

Jimpy I think it's a little harsh to write both players off at only 21.

Anyone got any solutions closer to home?

I totally disagree, both players definitely have their faults, but both have demonstrated the ability to do certain things at international level. They are only 21 and have 20 odd caps between them for goodness sake! Yes, they need to go away and develop themselves, but sadly, we don't really have much depth in those positions, so in the short term they are going to continue to be 1st/2nd choice, with little pressure and competition for the shirt.

How many players 'make it' when they are 21 and then continue to be quality for extended periods of time? Very few. Someone like Robshaw tore up the Prem for many years and many thought he wasn't good enough for ints, but he's proven most of us all wrong, despite a poor AIs as a captain.

I don't think so. A player has either 'got it' or he hasn't. Its quite obvious to me that neither 'has it' (whatever 'it' is). Coaching can only take a chap so far, its time England stopped metaphorically bashing its head against the wall trying to bring on players who are quite clealry limited at international level instead of bringing in chaps who are showing very good club form and might well make the transition with aplomb.

It matters not that Messers Farrell & Tuilagi are only 21, they've had their chances (plenty) and are demonstrably not up to scratch. Besides, i want Tuilagi playing for his club week in week out, not being fed shoite ball from a mish mash of half backs at England.

by GLove39 Thu 29 Nov 2012, 2:01 pm

Farrell doesn't really need to improve, he is after all one of the top 4 players in the world and either the 2nd or 3rd best fly half in the world...

by munkian Thu 29 Nov 2012, 2:49 pm

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 29 Nov 2012, 2:55 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but having you 10 make 'attacking' passes requires the players to be there for the ball. Or do they just appear? Are we having loads of clever attacking runs that Farell isn't picking up? Are the wide open spaces for Farell the run through that's not seeing? Surely what we need is several option available to him and then him pick the best one. If he can't do that then he's not much good. If their aren't any options then he can't be blaimed

Like Wilko he stands deep making it very hard for attacking moves to come off him and anything other than a kick will mean going backwards significantly before ground forward can be made, and like Wilko (post Bokking) he has no running game.

by yappysnap Thu 29 Nov 2012, 3:46 pm

Can anyone supply stats on the top 13's in the prem? Guys like Lowe, Joseph, Hopper and Manu.

I bet none of them pass as much as me expect, but at least Manu has a proven try scoring record

by Geordie Thu 29 Nov 2012, 3:49 pm

Farrell is up for player of the year.... Erm

by screamingaddabs Thu 29 Nov 2012, 3:55 pm

Manu is not England's problem. Creativity in attack is England's problem. Look at the backline for Saturday:

9. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. Brown
12. Barritt
13. MT
14. Ashton
15. Goode

I'd describe Youngs (on form) as creative and Goode as creative.

Let's look at the AB lineup:

9. Aaron.Smith
10. D.Carter
12. M.Nonu
13. Conrad Smith
11. C.Jane
14. J.Savea
15. I.Dagg

Creative Players? Pretty much all of them no?

Manu could be a lot like Nonu in the future but we need better at 10 and 12 than Farrell and Barritt at the mo IF we want to play an attacking game in the backs. They're good players, but not attacking players.

Of course if we would prefer more of a SA style then Farrell and to an extent Barritt may have a place. SA tend to be more forward oriented and more structured in their back play.

Personally I'd love us to be SA up front and NZ in the backs! I can dream I guess.

by dummy_half Thu 29 Nov 2012, 3:56 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but having you 10 make 'attacking' passes requires the players to be there for the ball. Or do they just appear? Are we having loads of clever attacking runs that Farell isn't picking up? Are the wide open spaces for Farell the run through that's not seeing? Surely what we need is several option available to him and then him pick the best one. If he can't do that then he's not much good. If their aren't any options then he can't be blaimed

Like Wilko he stands deep making it very hard for attacking moves to come off him and anything other than a kick will mean going backwards significantly before ground forward can be made, and like Wilko (post Bokking) he has no running game.

To be fair, he has to stand deep for Youngs to be able to see him beyond all the forwards that are loitering just off the ruck...

More seriously, I think some good points have been raised here

Farrell clearly has the temperament and physical capability to be a very good 10, but needs to work on his pace (sprint training as per Mike Brown) and on executing a more adventurous game plan with confidence. The latter would be easier with a more attacking 12 and having forwards running off him rather than standing still, and also simply with more experience in the 10 jersey - he still isn't even first choice in that position for his club side, and being a young player as well means he is really thrown in at the deep end for England. Under the circumstances, it's hardly surprising that he's reverted to a fairly conservative approach.

Manu I have less issues with - the criticism of him is because he's playing pretty well but we expect him to be better. In fairness he is the one ball carrier in the backs who you can guarantee will give go forward, but sometimes the blinkers do come on. He often seems to be looking for an offload, but decides to go to ground in preference to a high risk pass (or simply because no-one else gets close enough).

I think the problems both have can be put down to two issues:
1 - Lack of fluency elsewhere in the team at the moment
2 - Perhaps a philosophy (from the coaching staff?) where not making mistakes is more important than breaking the game open. This to me seems to be the biggest difference between the ABs and everyone else (bar the French when the mood takes them) - allow your team to play uninhibited running rugby and they will be far better and more entertaining than the current stodgy stuff England (and others) are producing.

by Geordie Thu 29 Nov 2012, 3:58 pm

Let's look at the AB lineup:

9. Aaron.Smith
10. D.Carter
12. M.Nonu
13. Conrad Smith
11. C.Jane
14. J.Savea
15. I.Dagg

Could be a long day at the office on Saturday Whisky

by screamingaddabs Thu 29 Nov 2012, 4:00 pm

dummy_half wrote:

Farrell clearly has the temperament and physical capability to be a very good 10, but needs to work on his pace (sprint training as per Mike Brown) and on executing a more adventurous game plan with confidence. The latter would be easier with a more attacking 12 and having forwards running off him rather than standing still, and also simply with more experience in the 10 jersey - he still isn't even first choice in that position for his club side, and being a young player as well means he is really thrown in at the deep end for England. Under the circumstances, it's hardly surprising that he's reverted to a fairly conservative approach.

I've only just realised how little we have seen a big forward on the number 10s shoulder from England recently. It's a lot easier to play on the gain line when you have a get out of jail card of give it to a forward (at pace!) if the defence come up quickly.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 29 Nov 2012, 4:05 pm

yappysnap wrote:Can anyone supply stats on the top 13's in the prem? Guys like Lowe, Joseph, Hopper and Manu.

I bet none of them pass as much as me expect, but at least Manu has a proven try scoring record

From the Telegraph, this season's AP matches. read into it what you will.

Manu v JJ in AP:

5 Matches 7
2 Tries 2
10 Points 10
1 Try assist 0
3 Kicks From Hand 7
22 Passes 46
0 Yellow cards 0
0 Red cards 0
42 Carries 43
302 Metres carried 205
6 Clean breaks 3
6 Offloads 7
19 Defenders beaten 8

Lowe v Hopper:

3 Matches 9
1 Tries 1
5 Points 5
0 Try assist 0
2 Kicks From Hand 6
14 Passes 35
0 Yellow cards 0
0 Red cards 0
28 Carries 61
149 Metres carried 279
2 Clean breaks 5
3 Offloads 4
1 Defenders beaten 15

by **LondonTiger** Thu 29 Nov 2012, 4:07 pm

assuming these stats are correct - there is just one scoring pass given by these 4 centres across a combined 24 appearances!!

by Bathman_in_London Thu 29 Nov 2012, 4:12 pm

That is a worying stat LT! I wonder if any of the centres in the league have managed a whole 2 assists?!

Manu's defenders beaten is impressive, the reason for selecting him shown in 1 number!

by yappysnap Thu 29 Nov 2012, 4:15 pm

And there in lies the problem with our centre choices

by yappysnap Thu 29 Nov 2012, 4:15 pm

Hopper looks pretty good too

by **LondonTiger** Thu 29 Nov 2012, 4:40 pm

Bathman_in_London wrote:That is a worying stat LT! I wonder if any of the centres in the league have managed a whole 2 assists?!

Manu's defenders beaten is impressive, the reason for selecting him shown in 1 number!

Top assists:

Players Team Matches Try assist
1 Matt Jess Exeter 9 4
1 Nick Evans Harlequins 8 4
1 Stephen Myler Northampton 8 4
1 Anthony Allen Leicester 8 4
5 Daniel Cipriani Sale 8 3
5 Hugo Southwell London Wasps 7 3
5 James Simpson-Daniel Gloucester 8 3
5 Nick Abendanon Bath 9 3

by Bathman_in_London Thu 29 Nov 2012, 4:57 pm

So there we are, Anthony Allen is clearly the stats choice for the 12 shirt!

by nathan Thu 29 Nov 2012, 5:29 pm

Bathman_in_London wrote:So there we are, Anthony Allen is clearly the stats choice for the 12 shirt!

lets be honest, that would never happen. 606 would never allow it!

by HammerofThunor Thu 29 Nov 2012, 6:01 pm

How are 'assists' determined? Try scoring pass? So if a center passes to a wing that then offloads for a try doesn't count? If not it's a load of Love sacks. It's like saying wingers who don't score tries are Poopie.

by Seagultaf Thu 29 Nov 2012, 6:15 pm

In modern test rugby back play is all about pace. Manu has it Farrell does not and that will limit his abilities to improve.

I dont think it helps that Barritt is at 12, great defender but not a great centre.

As an outsider I see Flood and Burns as better prospects than Farrell, but the Samoan is the real deal and with the right development will be a real asset to England.

by Sponsored content