Farrell Jr and Manu Tuilagi - how can they improve?

First topic message reminder :

These are two young players both only 21 who I think both have decent skills in certain areas. Farrell is tough mentally with a decent defense and is a good goal kicker. Manu Tuilagi is a raw attacking talent whose a real handful and has a decent try strike rate at international level. Both players have a lot of potential in my opinion but clear areas to work upon.

Both players in particular have been getting a lot of criticism. Probably deservedly so but the question is two fold - firstly how can they improve their game and how do they do this?

How for example people have said Farrell is too slow. how can he become quicker? Can he?

You can say well Tuilagi needs to learn to pass the ball more and Farrell needs to be more creative but technically how do you think they can do this?

It's easy to criticize but let's get some solutions. What should these players be changing to improve?

How did Nonu for example actually become an all rounder?

Thoughts?

Actually, PSW raises a good point there. Farrell starts on Saturday. I would genuinely love him to do really well. I don't think he will unfortunately because I don't think he is quite good enough (yet?), but if he does play very well against NZ then I will of course back him to start in the 6 nations.

It will be interesting to see if SL brings on Burns, and if so when. In a perfect (injury free!) world I would have left Buns out for this game, played Flood with Farrell on the bench and then tried Burns from the bench a few times in the 6 nations.

True screamingaddabs.

If SL does bring on Burns I hope he does it at an appropriate time (whenever that is).

Would be nice to give Burns at least a 20 minutes run out - if Farrell is really struggling then give him 40.

I would certainly give him a decent run out or it's pointless to call him up.

He definitely offers different skills to Farrell and I am sure both scrum halves would be more appreciative of what he offers.

I definitely hope we don't get any 2 minutes at the end of a game caps on Saturday - especially from Burns.

Someone said on a different thread (or maybe this one ages ago) that Burns has asked to play for Gloucester on Sunday if he gets 20 minutes or less! Good lad, loves playing obviously.

A good thing about the Flood injury is that by 4 tomorrow we should have a better idea of how the 3 10s stand, and we will hopefully have seen Manu perform against the big boys!

Thing is, if the games close he wont come on unless Freels crocked.

If he comes on when the games lost we learn very little, weve already seen in previosu matches how different the ABs are when they cant be arsed.

Yeah, I guess so :-(

I have no idea who Freel is

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_Freel

I don't think he is England Qualified (yet)

beshocked wrote:True screamingaddabs.

If SL does bring on Burns I hope he does it at an appropriate time (whenever that is).

Would be nice to give Burns at least a 20 minutes run out - if Farrell is really struggling then give him 40.

I would certainly give him a decent run out or it's pointless to call him up.

He definitely offers different skills to Farrell and I am sure both scrum halves would be more appreciative of what he offers.

Well at one level he is no10 insurance which any coach would need on the bench.
But of course Burns also offers so much more... and SL is also aware of that.
Tough oppos for his baptismal first cap, but I think Burns confidence will be up for that.
How long he gets is in the hands of SL or injuries, but I agree Beshocked 20 mins minimum, once the ABs are in cruise mode. Maybe 40 mins.

Burns has nothing to lose if NZ are cruising does he? He has a lot more to lose if England are in with a shot at winning when he comes on. The pressure will all be on him in that situation.

Imagine the scenario - Farrell boots over 4 penalties to make it 12 -18 (2 tries, 1 conversion, 2 penalties) to New Zealand with 20 minutes to go.

Not completely far fetched. What would you do? Bring Burns on or hope Farrell can continue to close the gap?

If NZ build a significant lead - most likely scenario - Burns can throw caution to the wind surely?

Has to be Flood/Burns going forward

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Has to be Flood/Burns going forward

Is my feeling. At least in terms of who we need to try. I think Burns has earned a chance, but it's very rare for a newbie to start, even rarer against the ABs.

Honestly, i just really don't see the interest in Farrell, but as a back-up until a better option arrives, I can see why he's there.

didn't do too badly vs NZ did they?

....maybe they just have...

Thought all the backs looked better today as they forwards were giving them just a little bit quicker ball

beshocked wrote:True screamingaddabs.

If SL does bring on Burns I hope he does it at an appropriate time (whenever that is).

Would be nice to give Burns at least a 20 minutes run out - if Farrell is really struggling then give him 40.

I would certainly give him a decent run out or it's pointless to call him up.

He definitely offers different skills to Farrell and I am sure both scrum halves would be more appreciative of what he offers.

Hi beshocked, sorry, nom nom, just, nom, eating some, nom, delicious humble pie.

Haven't watched it all yet, but I did see Farrell not only nail kicks, but also pass decently (still can't run ) and Barritt break for a try. I don't know if i wan't them there in the long-run, but if they can do it against that team, well...

Thought Burns cameo was also a success. Really hope this helps us kick on with whoever. Really cannot remember seeing our forwards look so menacing and carry so well!

Well let's be honest we were all taken aback by that. Farrell and tillage showed again they arebig game players. And he can pass!

I had my doubts about Farrell, but as OP reminds he is only 21,and will develop more facetts to his game,if the forwards give him a platform he has shown he can be very effective.I think burns has proven himself to be a very good alternative also, offering a little more in attack....

Hood83 wrote:

beshocked wrote:True screamingaddabs.

If SL does bring on Burns I hope he does it at an appropriate time (whenever that is).

Would be nice to give Burns at least a 20 minutes run out - if Farrell is really struggling then give him 40.

I would certainly give him a decent run out or it's pointless to call him up.

He definitely offers different skills to Farrell and I am sure both scrum halves would be more appreciative of what he offers.

Hi beshocked, sorry, nom nom, just, nom, eating some, nom, delicious humble pie.

Haven't watched it all yet, but I did see Farrell not only nail kicks, but also pass decently (still can't run ) and Barritt break for a try. I don't know if i wan't them there in the long-run, but if they can do it against that team, well...

Thought Burns cameo was also a success. Really hope this helps us kick on with whoever. Really cannot remember seeing our forwards look so menacing and carry so well!

Very gracious of you. It surpassed everyone's expectations!

Farrell wasn't faultless though - he made some errors like not finding touch a couple of times and was fortunately not judged to have given a forward pass with his first touch! Overall though he was nerveless with the boot. Solid in defence and showed a bit more to his passing than we have seen. Even had one nice little cheeky run.

Agree about Burns too - he looked like he was comfortable. Not at all flustered.

Refreshing to see Barritt score a try as obviously and deservedly he's been criticised for not being attacking enough. Neat little exchanges of passes with him and Tuilagi shows their centre partnership isn't all bad.

Nice to see Ashton back on the score sheet though yet again I do think he wasted another attacking opportunity - dropping the ball with the try line beckoning in the first half. Still he showed with his try he runs good support lines.

Tuilagi looked the real deal at 13. I and others have criticised him for his passing but he proved us wrong. His try assists for Barritt and Ashton show his passing game is developing very nicely indeed! Of course the pace and power he showed was sublime.

PSW totally agree. We have had our differences but I think we can both look in admiration at the whole team performance.

Have to give a lot of credit to the forwards. They did their jobs very well - they laid the platform for the backs. An overall amazing team effort.

Yup, just to add here what I said on another thread - I was very happily surprised by Farrell. As you say, not perfect but good. He now has the ten shirt and it is up to Flood and Burns to battle out for the subs shirt. Obviously Farrell will need to keep playing well to retain the starting berth, but he has now proven against the very best that he can play.

Happily I was right about Tuilagi :-)

As for Barritt, again he played a lot better than I expected. I still don't feel he is the right long term choice but he should definitely start the six nations as our 12.

I'm really happy for Farrell - I just hope he continues to improve his passing and attacking game and doesn't drop off against lesser opposition.

Assuming everyone is fit and well the only change I would make to the starting XV is Foden for Brown. Really harsh on Brown who had some excellent moments (great breaks and a fantastic turnover) but he is not quick enough for the wing despite Margo's efforts and it did show a couple of times where he got skinned on the outside. He IS good enough to play at 15 internationally but I rate Goode ahead of him for England's style of play. Should Goode be injured then I would be very happy to bring in Brown.

Jimpy wrote:The simple fact is that neither player is anything but a good club level player. I doubt either could be improved significantly. Personally, I think its time for SL to end his experiment with both of them.

awww,

Farrell needs to kick on from this.

Agree Barritt might not be the long term 12 but his exchange of passes with Tuilagi showed that their centre partnership can work.

Full back conundrum is very tough.

Wouldn't you look to try Wade in the 6 nations?

Form must come into play in my opinion.

It's really nice to see the whole England side show they can come on top vs the best side in the world.

beshocked wrote:Wouldn't you look to try Wade in the 6 nations?

It is probably heresy - but I would be tempted to have look at the other Wasps winger

LondonTiger wrote:

beshocked wrote:Wouldn't you look to try Wade in the 6 nations?

It is probably heresy - but I would be tempted to have look at the other Wasps winger

Indeed it probably is but if he's playing well enough then why not?

why is hesrhy- i thought he would be all over this place after that win!!

mystiroakey wrote:

Jimpy wrote:The simple fact is that neither player is anything but a good club level player. I doubt either could be improved significantly. Personally, I think its time for SL to end his experiment with both of them.

awww,

Well, they proved on Saturday that they can do it. And I, like many must have been pleasantly suprised. But the old addage 'one swallow doesn't make a summer' still holds water - if - IF they can go on and maintain form like that internationally, then I will be happy to say I was wrong.