Scotland - do we expect too much?

The last few years have been a bit of a terror for Scottish Rugby and its fans. The run of results in the 6 nations have been embarrassing and only the odd ‘freak’* win here and there have kept a lot of fans keeping the faith.

But what are we really supporting and what should we really expect. Are us fans just living is a world made of dreams, or do we actually have a light at the end of the tunnel?

We have had coach after coach who has been considered incompetent at the end by the fans and players who, we consider should be doing better. We are waiting for the perfect coach to bring us the success we deserve, we strive for, and what we are just an inch away from achieving. But what sort of coach is able to bring the best to the players – does it really exist. Scottish, English, Australia coaches have all failed. Our coaches in the pro teams are also failures according to fans, with very little to shout about in their history – if every coach is a failure, maybe it is not all the coaches fault.

Each year we entry the 6 nations as dark horses (unusually based on our freak win in the AI) and promptly fall to a dismal failure, with only the ‘could of’, ‘should of’ ‘an unlucky bounce’ to give us solace that things are ok and we are near a corner. How far away can that corner be? 10 years and counting since anything of real meaning means this corridor is longer that a Q to a free pint in Scotland.

Our players are a mixed bag, but we keep mentioning that we have several world class players, we just need to find that lynch pin, find that spark, get the bounce of the ball and we will be off. But every 4 years the lions come around and we are shocked and disappointed that only 2 Scots are selected – we bemoan the selectors for not understanding how unlucky we are, how playing in a poor team is not letting them shine and our ‘world class’ players should be there – well after so many repeated lions non call ups, I start to wonder, do these experts actually know more that I do, and are they actually selecting the right players – one poor lions year selection is careless, 3 in a row is down right worrying. Maybe our players are not that good in the international stage – maybe we are not unlucky, maybe we have average players, maybe their club form does not make them suddenly the best around and deserving of a lions call up.

We blame the player pool, the size of our nation and the number of pro teams we have – but so what? Other countries have less, are developing and getting better. Is it time to stop throwing excuses out and stand tall – accept we have limitations, but embrace them and overcome them – work together, play together and show that the team can inspire a nation by what they do on the pitch. Win or lose – it is in our hands to dictate how we play, how we play together and the passion we show for the shirt – that is what will get people back to the sport I love.

Our mentality used to be a strength . We knew that we did not have the best players, but they would work till their eyes bled to ensure they worked harder than the other team. We would show them that while smaller, slower and often less skilful, we would fight together and be as one to win. These days, I see player losing and saying they deserved more, being beaten and not taking that as a personal let down to the team and players expecting to be picked game after game, regardless of how much effort they put it. There seems to be an expectation in Rugby and Scotland, that we deserve more, it is someone else fault, we should have had a better run – but maybe it is not anyone else’s fault, maybe it is in our hands and maybe it is time for the players to front up and demand the win through the actions on the pitch – by playing to be more than the sum of the parts –taking the responsibility on their own shoulders.

And finally, is it time for us fans to accept what we are – a nation of average. Our wing is not the best in Europe, our hooker is not a sure fired starter for the lions, our second row does not have the best hair and we are not always cheated by fates out of the win we deserve. I want to be proud of my nation, my team and the trophies they hold, but until we stop deluding ourselves and take responsibility for supplying the passion, the wins, playing to be more that our parts and the accepting our mistakes, I fear we will forever remain the team that ‘could of’ ‘should of’ or ‘got the unlucky bounce’. We can not always talk about how great Scottish rugby is and well we played and how great our players are, with no evidence on the score board. We need to accept ourselves to accept a road to recovery.

I am RiskySports – I love Scottish Rugby – I accept Scottish Rugby is average and our players are average – I know we can work together to be better – to become good – but it is ours and my responsibility to get there – no-one owes us this - However , I will continue to support my team through this difficult time and I am proud to be a Scottish Rugby supporter

*Freak due to the fact we win the odd big match, but usually in weather conditions the penguins would shutter at – we do not construct our wins and never really seem to be in full control of the games.

I know what you are saying risky, and I know you love Scottish rugby, you are a veteran from the old 606 and you have been posting on here as long as me if not even longer. Noone could ever say you don't care about the sport.

I have to disagree with your topic though and I'll explain why here :

Robinson, Hadden, Williams, they all have something in common. They have never EVER selected the best XV to start test matches.

Here is just a select few of Robinsons howlers :

Blair & Cusiter dual captaincy.
Hines at 6.
Kellock as Captain for the RWC.
Playing either Morrison or Lamont at either 12 or 13.
John Barclay at 8.
Kelly Brown at 7.
Nikki Walker playing at all.
Dickinson at tight head.
Parks Starting against England earlier in the year.

And thats is just the obvious ones. Other coaches like Hadden have had to preside over squads that have included Di Rollo, Andy Henderson, Simon Webster & Hugo Southwell!

Compare that to players like Visser, Maitland, Denton, Scott & Laidlaw. You can't honestly think that our players are not improving and our side is looking better.

My expectation is that the national side maximise the resources available and play to the highest of its capabilities.

Clearly I accept that expectation will not always be met, but that is my expectation.

In terms of how that translates into results, there are variables at play that have nothing to do with Scotland - conditions, injuries and most of all, the opposition.

Sometimes, as a result of my expectations, I anticipate that Scotland will win a test match, sometimes, notwithstanding my expectations, I anticipate that Scotland will lose. You have to take each match as it comes in that respect, and make the judgment when as many of the variables are known (which is why hindsight makes things so much easier).

I personally think Scottish fans have pretty fair expectations of what the side can and cannot achieve. Most of the core Scotland players have played to a very high standard at some stage in the careers, and we have also achieved some fine results in the past (exceeding most fans' predictions).

There is no question that Robinson failed to get the team performing to its maximum potential, no question at all. Initially selections were a big issue, but latterly I think he got the team close to right. He never however managed to get the team to gel, and find roles for each player that suited their skill set. The organisation of the set-piece was frequently shambolic, and the backs moves were either too simplistic, or so complex that our own players couldn't figure out what was happening.

He also, to be fair, was let down by players he trusted. He put faith in Kellock as skipper and Kellock repaid him by inspecting rucks. He stuck with Jackson at 10 and Jackson didn't bother learning how to kick goals and his form slumped. He backed Strokosch to follow-up his strong performances in the summer in these AIs and he didn't. He trusted Ford with the captaincy and his form nose-dived and his throwing went to pot.

The team is in good shape in my view, and needs only a small tweak here or there to become much better.

From south of the border, I actually think there is evidence of you building a strong team for the near future, and contrary to some of the pessimism there probably are 5 or 6 Lions tourists and a couple of Test starters in your current best line-up.

There is an issue with strength in depth, and that is only going to continue while you only have the 2 regional sides - there simply isn't enough opportunity to develop players. You need to get a Borders team back up and running - not having a representative team from the traditional heartland of Scottish rugby is an absurd and shocking situation. A fourth region (North?) should be a longer term objective.

You've got a pack that on paper is comparable to anything else in the NH. In particular, a back row of Brown, Rennie and Denton offers as much quality and a greater range of skills than any of the other 6Ns sides. Add in Richie Gray in front of them and there's certainly some quality available.

The backs clearly are a bit more of an issue.
Scrum halves you're pretty strong, with several international class options (although all are getting oldish), but the coaches have had an issue with settling on one of them. Work out the game plan then pick the 9 that best suits it.
10, 12, 13 has been and to some extent continues to be the big area of difficulty. Parks, Morrison, Di Luca as a combination would have struck fear into the hearts of opposition fans - that they'd pull something while laughing hystrerically. Laidlaw at least offers something in attack, but does have flaws in his game as a 10, while you at least seem to be going the right way in bringing on some centres. Pity that Ansbro suffered his neck injury, as he looked a very decent player last season.
Back 3 hasn't usually been the problem other than that the ball hardly ever reached them (oh, and finding the position for Patterson, which is a conundrum that I don't think you ever entirely answered).

I actually think Robinson has left you in a decent position in terms of blooding new players and addressing weak areas, but now you need to start producing better results to back up some of the optimism.

I don't expect much at all, I certainly don't expect to be winning world cups or six nations any time soon. But I do think we should be doing better than we are.

I have seen most if not all our first choice players put in outstanding performances at one time or another. But why can't they play at their best every time? That's the problem, consistency. I don't think I've ever seen a Scotland side in which every player has been on top form. Maybe it's an attitude or confidence thing, maybe there's not enough competition for places forcing them to improve. But for me that's the biggest thing for a new coach to do, get all the players playing to the best of their ability consistently. That's all we can ask really.

I also think when we get over 60% possession and territory in a match there is no excuse for not winning. We have shown we can get ourselves in a position to win but haven't been able to convert. I don't think we lack the power, pace or skill to break down defences but we haven't shown the intelligence to use our players to the maximum effect. We need to get the players to learn how to identify opposition weaknesses and make the split second decisions on how to exploit them in the heat of the match, and not just stick to pre-conceived tactics that aren't working. That's going to be tougher for the new coach to fix.

I will respond, but had to have a sit down as felt light headed as getting all that off my chest :-)

We are Scotland - We are over-acheivers

I long for the good old days where scotland were mentally tough. The days of Sole, Calder, Jefferies and Co. Back in these days Scotland played better in the second half than they did in the first.

I can remember watching games with my non-rugby-understanding brother and we'd be a few points behind at the half, he'd be saying we're stuffed and I'd tell him to wait and see what happens.

Ah........ the good old days.

Still

back to the point of this thread.

As a nation we do expect too much from our team. In the 80's and early 90's we had a good team in the amature era and since professionalism we've been left behind. Partly due to player base, parlty due to finances (which is player based as well I suppose)
However, in this day and age, you cannot accept mediocre results. You need to push and strive to be better and keep on improving. Other nations will be doing the same though.
In my mind I see Scotland as floating around the 8th to 6th spot in the rankings. We should be (and have been) getting the occational big 3 scalp (home and away). We should be regularly beating italy and Argentina, and never loosing to south sea islander sides. We should be beating Ireland and Wales at home and (in my opinion) we should be winning 50% of away games against ireland and wales. We should be having the occasional win against england and france also but accepting that due to far greater player bases/ populations and finances, England and France should beat us 75% of the time.

But we live in the real world and things are not decided by population or wealth. Just as well or we'd all be speaking chinese right now if it was.

Scotland have punched above thier weight for decades. That weight gap is just starting to close a little

I think most Scots are actually quite level headed when it comes to the expectations of your team. If anything sometimes I think your expectations are too low.

Scotland should have qualified for the world cup quarter finals.

You should have beaten Tonga as a bare minimum.

With the players you have you should be doing better.

Scotland has the basis of a good side as dummy half says.

Particularly the pack.

As one of the marginally older feckers on these boards (35, respect to emack), one of the few advantages this brings is perspective.

I think a lot of the younger posters here have never seen for themselves the cyclical nature of how players develop and therefore don't understand that the quality of teams ebb and flow over time. I grew up watching Scotland throughout the 80s where a great team would systematically and comfortably spank Ireland and Wales in every single 5 Nations as it then was, with England and France the only real competition.

The 90s offered fewer glory days although I noted with pride the Scottish players playing key roles in Lions series (e.g. Finlay Calder captaining the series win over the Wallabies in 89; Gavin Hastings as captain in the June 1993 power-wedgie of the All Blacks in Wellington; Tait, Townsend and Smith starring in the 97 series win over the Springboks) - always the bellweather for how good your players are in comparison to the others.

Professionalism was the great chance for individual national RFUs to gain an advantage in equipping their players for playing full time. Scotland did not get organised as well as others and for quite a while in the 00s, it showed.

Players come and go and nations get lucky with individuals good enough to carry whole forward packs, backlines or even entire teams. Lots of younger fans didn't (and won't) realise what they have in O'Driscoll, Johnson, Jiffy, Dayglo until they've gone. Scotland suffered a simple drought of talent over the past 10 years but it is not an exaggeration to say that the team that Robinson left has the makings of a team as good as anything in the home nations.

Why we care so much about whom the coach new will be is that this team can either be brought to its potential or torpedoed by the strange selection choices and weak attack coaching that has plainly been the problem over the past 5 years. I have a lot of sympathy for Hadden, who just didn't have the raw material to work with. AR had much better players but used them poorly.

It cannot be beyond the wit of a good coach to see where the uncut diamonds are and start to develop them. Gatland was the simple difference between Wales being a reasonable team and a very good one.

I think with the team we have now we are just waiting for a truly special player who can spark something out of nothing, that's what I hope Bennett is, our pack is arguably the best in Britain. The thing is that this lot don't seem to have the same fight and passion. Every time the 2005-2010 team wore the shirt you knew they'd give absolutely everything despite their shortcomings. This group have infinitely more talent than the team that was there under Hadden.
Look at the team that played Fiji when Robinson came n comparison to the team a lot of people are suggesting should start against England:
R. Lamont, Hogg
S. Lamont, Maitland
Grove, Ansbro
Morrison Scott
, Danielli, Visser
Godman, Weir
Cusiter, Blair
Jacobsen, Grant
Ford, Ford
Low, Murray
Hines, Gray
Kellock, Gilchrist
Strokosch, Brown
Barclay, Rennie
Beattie. Denton

I'd say only Hines and the 2009 Barclay and Beattie are better than their counterparts.

Don't worry, I still think Sean Connery is the best James Bond.

I expect them to play well - to the best of their abilities and to be well coached adn have some passion and fight. Its been a while but it can come back again - do so and we will be realistic 6 N contenders again

In the context of the mess the game is in at all levels in Scotland, I suppose the fans aren't entirely realistic about the results Scotland should be achieving. The fact that no one seems to have a prudent plan to sort things out is quite disconcerting, especially when you see down-right daft PR statements about Scotland targeting the next RWC. However, if we all resign ourselves to defeat and hide behind the excuses of player numbers, demographics and that Tonga beat France without trying to transform the game from top to bottom, we might as well bow out of the Six Nations now and start playing at a level that better suits our capabilities.

However, I would not say that expecting to see professional rugby players showing competence and a desire to play for their country is expecting too much. Although he's prone to stupid mistakes and is a bit of a bumbling oaf, Sean Lamont through the years is the only player who I've seen trying to step things up a gear whilst the rest of the players stand around with their hands on their hips. I would also say that I can't remember the last time where I could say that Scotland had played well, given it everything but that they were out-played by a better team. The number of times in recent memory we have lost to poor Welsh teams or average Irish teams at Murrayfield is simply not good enough.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Don't worry, I still think Sean Connery is the best James Bond.

Dalton.

Cryptoyourisan wrote:In the context of the mess the game is in at all levels in Scotland, I suppose the fans aren't entirely realistic about the results Scotland should be achieving. The fact that no one seems to have a prudent plan to sort things out is quite disconcerting, especially when you see down-right daft PR statements about Scotland targeting the next RWC. However, if we all resign ourselves to defeat and hide behind the excuses of player numbers, demographics and that Tonga beat France without trying to transform the game from top to bottom, we might as well bow out of the Six Nations now and start playing at a level that better suits our capabilities.

However, I would not say that expecting to see professional rugby players showing competence and a desire to play for their country is expecting too much. Although he's prone to stupid mistakes and is a bit of a bumbling oaf, Sean Lamont through the years is the only player who I've seen trying to step things up a gear whilst the rest of the players stand around with their hands on their hips. I would also say that I can't remember the last time where I could say that Scotland had played well, given it everything but that they were out-played by a better team. The number of times in recent memory we have lost to poor Welsh teams or average Irish teams at Murrayfield is simply not good enough.

The Welsh and Irish teams have better players. Its as simple as that. Scotland have average players and one or two good players. Not many Scots will make the Lions tour. Robinson had many successes against southern hemisphere teams and I feel that the next coach has a tough job.

Thats not to say things won't change. A cluster of talented players could come along soon.

We do have talented players. some of the best for a long time. Just playing without confidence and without a game plan they can believe in - and not being selected correctly.

the right coach will improve things

I as a proud Scotsman want to see Scotland doing as well as anyone else but I seriously thing that some of us have to be realistic
I particularly think that the Irish and the Welsh deserve far more credit than they are getting. Back in the 90s we were always confident when meeting these teams but since 2000 our winning ratio against them has not been great to say the least and this is not all down to the coaching (they have had more than their fair share of bad coaches). They have had better players full stop and it is not just the great ones like POC, BOD and Shane but the whole teams with great strength all over the field.
I think that half of this comes down to them having twice as many pro teams as us (I know it is not financially possible and don’t want to have that discussion again) but how many of the recent Scotland teams came from the borderers (Brown, Cussiter, Ford, Danielli, Walker, Macleod NDL off the top of my head). Where do the young and hungry players who have not been part of the Scotland set up in age grade rugby (partially due to where they are from or what team they started with see Lee Millar) supposed to get a start? Lets be honest if you are not seeing returns by 21-23 that is it you start concentrating on other things as it is just a hobby.
Are Scotland as good as we think? Heat says yes but watching them the brain says no I am afraid. Even some of our better players make very basic mistakes especially when in attack, the one that comes straight to mind is Rennie having a 2 on 1 and running straight into the player in last years 6N against England.
Our pack is good but not that good, we can hold our own against most of the 6N but we are definitely not the best. Only last year in the 6N our scrum and lineout were in disarray and although we seem to have improved we have not been in complete control of either this AI. We also seem to get white line fever within 10 meters of the line and never ship it out even when there are massive overlaps.
Is it the passion? Gary Armstrong is on the BBC bemoaning the lack of passion from the players is he right? If he is what is causing this is it that we have too many imports with only loose links to Scotland and just want to play international rugby? Is that it that it is just a job and not a privilege or is it that there is little competition for places and they know they will always be involved?
I think is a little of all of the above and we can’t blame the imports when we have seen the rev smiling when loosing scrums and be taken off and others such as Ford and Barclay (not the only ones) seeming to pick and choose which games they turn up in safe in the knowledge that they will still be in the team or the squad.
Personal preference as good as they are as players and I don’t have a problem with them playing but I would like to see the Scottish RFU develop players like Denton, Visser and Maitland instead of relying on picking them up when the have learned the game elsewhere. This is International rugby and if the vast majority of the team has not grown up/stayed in Scotland as anything but a player it does take something away.

Cryptoyourisan wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Don't worry, I still think Sean Connery is the best James Bond.

Dalton was nothing more than a roaring ladyboy in comparison.

Couldn't agree more.

Here is a reality check for Scotland after 13 championships,Ireland were in a similar place in the nineties.We didn t big ourselves up then or believe we were what we clearly were not,thats the secret,the element of surprise should be your tactic,totally low key,tell everyone how cr@p you are,that way you will get the hop on teams more often and eventually you may close the gap on the sides ahead of you.
Six Nations All-Time Table (2000–2012)
Pld W D L PF PA PD T Pts GS TC WS
France 65 46 1 18 1725 1133 592 169 93 5 3 N/A 0
Ireland 65 44 1 20 1629 1263 366 167 89 1 1 4 0
England 65 43 1 21 1829 1014 815 195 87 4 1 2 0
Wales 65 33 2 30 1444 1485 -41 133 68 3 3 3 1
Scotland 65 16 2 47 1038 1627 −589 74 34 0 0 0 3
Italy 65 9 1 55 960 2103 −1143 77 19 0 0 N/A 9