Can (or indeed should) the IRFU assist?

First topic message reminder :

Once again symbolic divisions cause real affray. And as I write, Hilary Clinton is dragged into the Stormont debate.

Rugby has a history in apartheid days of including itself in political controversies.

The IRFU I appreciate (i.e. I admire) as a paragon of apoliticism in standing for remaining unified as a unified nation despite warring conflicts.

But would it be reasonable for Amhrán na bhFiann to be dropped?

Whilst the Hand of Man (in its NI symbolic context) is a cause of division today, should not the IRFU not remove symbols of the State of Ireland?

In my research for this post I stumbled across http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland_national_rugby_union_team#Flags_and_anthems (ever reliable) and what stood out was

With Ireland's friendly game against Italy in the run up to the 2007 Rugby World Cup scheduled to be held in Belfast, there were calls for "God Save the Queen" to be used alongside "Ireland's Call" but this was turned down by the IRFU[30] with the explanation given that both Ireland's Call and Amhrán na bhFiann are only played together in Dublin, and that outside of the Republic, Ireland's Call is exclusively used

greytiger wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

greytiger wrote:PH,

But perhaps I'm being unfair about the writer's motivations. Would the poster care to tell us why he decided to write the article? What prompted it?

It was the am news which got me thinking laterally and being a rugby man, that prompted the post.

And unlike many, I'm not prone to exclusively fatuous arguments as whether A is better than B in competition C because D called it wrong.

I have arguments with Englishmen about the sheer illogicality of wage caps and Irishmen about issues like this, about the fundamental economics of the Celtic league, about IRB rankings (which I offered to you to host), about Law, rules and mechanisms which underpin refs, players and spectators' references of enjoyment and/or interpretations.

Mostly I just get interested about what most people see as peripheral.

Plus I have a personal wum rule. I always begin any deliberate wumming post with an obvious, specific health warning.

But where has the IRFU and its use of both tricolours and Ulster flags created any tension or disharmony in recent times?

You seek to link the circumstances from one current event to another but with no obvious grounds.

Actually my principle question was regarding symbols in general rather than flags in particular PH as was made abundantly clear in both the OP and the title.

p.s. the flag displayer in the IRB website is the IRFU one - not the tricolour. http://www.irb.com/unions/index.html
Quite rightly too imo as it is the the apolitical, unifying alternative.

Great. Glad you spotted that finally. So that sorts that out then.
The IRFU is acting as an apolitical, unifying sports body. At RWCs, on its website, in its anthems.

Debate over so.

Intotouch wrote:

Cari wrote:

Intotouch wrote:

Cari wrote:

profitius wrote:Whatever about the anthem they should stop the whole shaking hands with the president thing before the match. It takes way too long and to me just looks like some sort of political publicity stunt.

What?! No! That's one of my favourite bits!! Gives me a chance to check out the talent. Don't get that with any other country (the Haka's not bad, but they pull stupid faces), and let's be honest, Ireland does have some tasty players. Keep it in I say. Balls to politics, I want to drool!

Secretfly - I happen to like Ireland's Call, and I know some of the words, so I can join in a little bit

Who do you think is hot? Apart from Stephen Ferris there's no one anymore that makes me sigh on the team.

Well, when there's no injuries....Tommy - goes without sayin' (and I'm not a stalker Neilly! I just have some taste...) Chilli con Kearney, Ferg McFadden, Fitzy, Heaslip's all right (without the silly tache), Ferris is cute actually and built like a brick wossname which is a bonus...I do miss Wally though.

Oh sorry, the thread was about flags...carry on...

Yes yes, flags, hmmm, hmmm.
I forgot about Kearney! God it really is a long time since he played now. Heaslip sometimes looks handsome. Bowe is nice. But yes, David Wallace was the finest. He has such a beautiful voice too...

Ah now talking is a different matter. I LOVE Quinny commentating!! Honestly, he should be reading on the 50 Shades of Grey audio books with his voice.

Sorry, flags...flags...

Pot Hale wrote:

greytiger wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

greytiger wrote:PH,

But perhaps I'm being unfair about the writer's motivations. Would the poster care to tell us why he decided to write the article? What prompted it?

It was the am news which got me thinking laterally and being a rugby man, that prompted the post.

And unlike many, I'm not prone to exclusively fatuous arguments as whether A is better than B in competition C because D called it wrong.

I have arguments with Englishmen about the sheer illogicality of wage caps and Irishmen about issues like this, about the fundamental economics of the Celtic league, about IRB rankings (which I offered to you to host), about Law, rules and mechanisms which underpin refs, players and spectators' references of enjoyment and/or interpretations.

Mostly I just get interested about what most people see as peripheral.

Plus I have a personal wum rule. I always begin any deliberate wumming post with an obvious, specific health warning.

But where has the IRFU and its use of both tricolours and Ulster flags created any tension or disharmony in recent times?

You seek to link the circumstances from one current event to another but with no obvious grounds.

Actually my principle question was regarding symbols in general rather than flags in particular PH as was made abundantly clear in both the OP and the title.
?
p.s. the flag displayer in the IRB website is the IRFU one - not the tricolour. http://www.irb.com/unions/index.html
Quite rightly too imo as it is the the apolitical, unifying alternative.

Great. Glad you spotted that finally. So that sorts that out then.
The IRFU is acting as an apolitical, unifying sports body. At RWCs, on its website, in its anthems.

Debate over so.

Except the anthems PH. As the OP also identified as the point of particular reference.

I only mention this as some people would seem intent to use the post for exchanging mindless drivel rather than engaging in adult debate.

greytiger wrote:I only mention this as some people would seem intent to use the post for exchanging mindless drivel rather than engaging in adult debate.

Whereas your speciality is mindless debate!

You can't have a debate unless you have people who have contrasting views. So far, on this thread, it hasn't been an issue for any Irish poster of any background. Where is the debate?

When there is nothing more to be said about a subject, people move on to a different topic of conversation. This is quite natural.

Notch wrote:

greytiger wrote:I only mention this as some people would seem intent to use the post for exchanging mindless drivel rather than engaging in adult debate.

Whereas your speciality is mindless debate!

You can't have a debate unless you have people who have contrasting views. So far, on this thread, it hasn't been an issue for any Irish poster of any background. Where is the debate?

When there is nothing more to be said about a subject, people move on to a different topic of conversation. This is quite natural.

But there IS debate. Who's the fittest Irish player? It's not my fault you insist on having this boring, dull conversation about flags which has no relevance whatsoever to rugby. At least my debate IS relevant. No important to the game itself, but relevant all the same.

Cari wrote:

Notch wrote:

greytiger wrote:I only mention this as some people would seem intent to use the post for exchanging mindless drivel rather than engaging in adult debate.

Whereas your speciality is mindless debate!

You can't have a debate unless you have people who have contrasting views. So far, on this thread, it hasn't been an issue for any Irish poster of any background. Where is the debate?

When there is nothing more to be said about a subject, people move on to a different topic of conversation. This is quite natural.

But there IS debate. Who's the fittest Irish player? It's not my fault you insist on having this boring, dull conversation about flags which has no relevance whatsoever to rugby. At least my debate IS relevant. No important to the game itself, but relevant all the same.

I agree Cari and I think the fittest is Ashleigh Baxter

Cari wrote:

Notch wrote:

greytiger wrote:I only mention this as some people would seem intent to use the post for exchanging mindless drivel rather than engaging in adult debate.

Whereas your speciality is mindless debate!

You can't have a debate unless you have people who have contrasting views. So far, on this thread, it hasn't been an issue for any Irish poster of any background. Where is the debate?

When there is nothing more to be said about a subject, people move on to a different topic of conversation. This is quite natural.

But there IS debate. Who's the fittest Irish player? It's not my fault you insist on having this boring, dull conversation about flags which has no relevance whatsoever to rugby. At least my debate IS relevant. No important to the game itself, but relevant all the same.

Unfortunately Ireland lost it last good looking, handsome and dare I say sexy player the day John "Bull" Hayes retired!

[quote="greytiger"][quote="Pot Hale"][quote="greytiger"][quote="Pot Hale"]

greytiger wrote:PH,

But perhaps I'm being unfair about the writer's motivations. Would the poster care to tell us why he decided to write the article? What prompted it?

It was the am news which got me thinking laterally and being a rugby man, that prompted the post.

Mostly I just get interested about what most people see as peripheral.

Actually my principle question was regarding symbols in general rather than flags in particular

Except the anthems . I only mention this as some people would seem intent to use the post for exchanging mindless drivel rather than engaging in adult debate.

Quite. Except like most people have commented - still don't know what the debate is meant to be about. IRFU using two anthems at a rugby match? I just don't recall seeing the riots in the streets of Dublin when this happened. Angry exchanges in Parliament perhaps? Revolt in West Wales? Paisley taking over Stormont? Did we miss something?

looks to me that with a change of name Portnoy still has an obsession with irish rugby

BoyneRFC wrote:Ireland's anthems and GSTQ are awful songs / melodies. Really bad.

In terms of nationalistic stuff, I don't think you will find much opinion in rugby circles. I think in general people nowadays are more concerned with their own health and happiness than anything else.

Look at the age profiles of the people causing ruckus in the North over such things. 14- 21 year olds. thugs with nothing better to do.

I find it a jaded argument, especially with the back drop to whats happening to the "United" Kingdom. Scotland want out. The North would be better off going it alone (they would be better off an an independent state in my opinion) and the Welsh have their assembly.

England seem to want to leave the EU and an Independent Scotland would want in. Confused? I am.

Someone said that England, if they left the EU and Scotland joined, would end up being a kin to Switzerland's ugly sister.

Whilst I don't necessarily agree with this PoV you have to admit that down the line there may be some truth in it.

Massivly sweeping statements made up of nothing more than your own assumptions.

'Scotland want out' - where is your proof of this? no one knows yet what this homogenous group of people you label 'Scotland' apprently want. Probabley not even the Scots, not until they excercise their democratic right and an independance referendum is counted and tallied. You can't lump an entire nation into one group. People rinse social sciences sometimes, but if everyone was made to read one good book, a lot less of these gormless views would be in evidence.

'England seem to want to leave the EU and an Independent Scotland would want in. Confused? I am' - if your view is so narrow of course you're confused. No one knows if this equally homogenous group you labelled 'England' wants to leave the EU, we weren't given the choice to leave or join, that's more of the issue for a few of us (no, a 40 yr old referendum on a previous accord doesn't cut the mustard). Again, where is your basis for 'Scotland want in'? where did you get this from?

As for 'England, if they left the EU and Scotland joined, would end up being a kin to Switzerland's ugly sister' just . Plain pig ignorance. If someone told you that you could see the Emperor's new cloths would you love the weave of the shiny silk?

Stick to Rugby, because there are holes in this year 7 social commentry that could have lorries driven through it. In fact, most of your post is pretty damn offensive. Us soft, lucky, privelidged southern English overlords just don't know how well we've got it eh?

AlastairW wrote:

BoyneRFC wrote:Ireland's anthems and GSTQ are awful songs / melodies. Really bad.

In terms of nationalistic stuff, I don't think you will find much opinion in rugby circles. I think in general people nowadays are more concerned with their own health and happiness than anything else.

Look at the age profiles of the people causing ruckus in the North over such things. 14- 21 year olds. thugs with nothing better to do.

I find it a jaded argument, especially with the back drop to whats happening to the "United" Kingdom. Scotland want out. The North would be better off going it alone (they would be better off an an independent state in my opinion) and the Welsh have their assembly.

England seem to want to leave the EU and an Independent Scotland would want in. Confused? I am.

Someone said that England, if they left the EU and Scotland joined, would end up being a kin to Switzerland's ugly sister.

Whilst I don't necessarily agree with this PoV you have to admit that down the line there may be some truth in it.

Massivly sweeping statements made up of nothing more than your own assumptions.

'Scotland want out' - where is your proof of this? no one knows yet what this homogenous group of people you label 'Scotland' apprently want. Probabley not even the Scots, not until they excercise their democratic right and an independance referendum is counted and tallied. You can't lump an entire nation into one group. People rinse social sciences sometimes, but if everyone was made to read one good book, a lot less of these gormless views would be in evidence.

'England seem to want to leave the EU and an Independent Scotland would want in. Confused? I am' - if your view is so narrow of course you're confused. No one knows if this equally homogenous group you labelled 'England' wants to leave the EU, we weren't given the choice to leave or join, that's more of the issue for a few of us (no, a 40 yr old referendum on a previous accord doesn't cut the mustard). Again, where is your basis for 'Scotland want in'? where did you get this from?

As for 'England, if they left the EU and Scotland joined, would end up being a kin to Switzerland's ugly sister' just . Plain pig ignorance. If someone told you that you could see the Emperor's new cloths would you love the weave of the shiny silk?

Stick to Rugby, because there are holes in this year 7 social commentry that could have lorries driven through it. In fact, most of your post is pretty damn offensive. Us soft, lucky, privelidged southern English overlords just don't know how well we've got it eh?

I suspect that was precisely the point Boyne was making!

MrsP wrote:

AlastairW wrote:

BoyneRFC wrote:Ireland's anthems and GSTQ are awful songs / melodies. Really bad.

In terms of nationalistic stuff, I don't think you will find much opinion in rugby circles. I think in general people nowadays are more concerned with their own health and happiness than anything else.

Look at the age profiles of the people causing ruckus in the North over such things. 14- 21 year olds. thugs with nothing better to do.

I find it a jaded argument, especially with the back drop to whats happening to the "United" Kingdom. Scotland want out. The North would be better off going it alone (they would be better off an an independent state in my opinion) and the Welsh have their assembly.

England seem to want to leave the EU and an Independent Scotland would want in. Confused? I am.

Someone said that England, if they left the EU and Scotland joined, would end up being a kin to Switzerland's ugly sister.

Whilst I don't necessarily agree with this PoV you have to admit that down the line there may be some truth in it.

Massivly sweeping statements made up of nothing more than your own assumptions.

'Scotland want out' - where is your proof of this? no one knows yet what this homogenous group of people you label 'Scotland' apprently want. Probabley not even the Scots, not until they excercise their democratic right and an independance referendum is counted and tallied. You can't lump an entire nation into one group. People rinse social sciences sometimes, but if everyone was made to read one good book, a lot less of these gormless views would be in evidence.

'England seem to want to leave the EU and an Independent Scotland would want in. Confused? I am' - if your view is so narrow of course you're confused. No one knows if this equally homogenous group you labelled 'England' wants to leave the EU, we weren't given the choice to leave or join, that's more of the issue for a few of us (no, a 40 yr old referendum on a previous accord doesn't cut the mustard). Again, where is your basis for 'Scotland want in'? where did you get this from?

As for 'England, if they left the EU and Scotland joined, would end up being a kin to Switzerland's ugly sister' just . Plain pig ignorance. If someone told you that you could see the Emperor's new cloths would you love the weave of the shiny silk?

Stick to Rugby, because there are holes in this year 7 social commentry that could have lorries driven through it. In fact, most of your post is pretty damn offensive. Us soft, lucky, privelidged southern English overlords just don't know how well we've got it eh?

I suspect that was precisely the point Boyne was making!

Then he shouldn't have started barking on about stuff that a lot of people would find pretty derogitory towards them. I'd find incredibly easy to view 'the Irish' as all wearing green with pixie boots, jaunty hats, ginger beards, drinking guiness repeating 'top o' the morning to ye', but truth is that's one-eyed, ignorant and offensive. Much like telling me parts of my country is better off torn apart because well he umm ... well .. errrr ... he thought he heard it from someone once and made the rest up out of thin air.

Alastair,

Boyne can speak for himself but I suspect all those points you have made are ones he was making to the OP. He was just trying to do it with a bit more subtlety.

Apologies rodders I'll amend that statement to "Hilary Clinton is dragged into the Stormont debate." - which is what I meant, but was sloppy use of English.

No. You are wrong. He was talking one-eyed, completely fabricated crap about another country. Feel free to talk about issues in relation to yourself, but don't do it for people of another country, especially if you're going to get it completely wrong.

AlastairW wrote:No. You are wrong. He was talking one-eyed, completely fabricated crap about another country. Feel free to talk about issues in relation to yourself, but don't do it for people of another country, especially if you're going to get it completely wrong.

very true. boyne should not have said that. but i feel you are missing the point of the post.

i would imagine if you asked every irish person they would say the very same about portnoys post

I give up!