Can (or indeed should) the IRFU assist?

First topic message reminder :

Once again symbolic divisions cause real affray. And as I write, Hilary Clinton is dragged into the Stormont debate.

Rugby has a history in apartheid days of including itself in political controversies.

The IRFU I appreciate (i.e. I admire) as a paragon of apoliticism in standing for remaining unified as a unified nation despite warring conflicts.

But would it be reasonable for Amhrán na bhFiann to be dropped?

Whilst the Hand of Man (in its NI symbolic context) is a cause of division today, should not the IRFU not remove symbols of the State of Ireland?

In my research for this post I stumbled across http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland_national_rugby_union_team#Flags_and_anthems (ever reliable) and what stood out was

With Ireland's friendly game against Italy in the run up to the 2007 Rugby World Cup scheduled to be held in Belfast, there were calls for "God Save the Queen" to be used alongside "Ireland's Call" but this was turned down by the IRFU[30] with the explanation given that both Ireland's Call and Amhrán na bhFiann are only played together in Dublin, and that outside of the Republic, Ireland's Call is exclusively used

Bill Clinton will be the next American ambassador to Ireland. Heard it here first.

Cari wrote:
Secretfly - I happen to like Ireland's Call, and I know some of the words, so I can join in a little bit

Oh I know many people do, Cari. My neice grew from a child to a young woman hounding me with renditions of it. I know many people have a fondness for it but just for me, I want something more darkly Irish rather than the light stuff. I'd like Bodhran's and Fianna warrior-like fire. Something more tribal. But that's just me. I'll put up with Ireland's Call for now and wince through it like usual.

Just make sure you put the red carpet in the right place when lord johnno makes his state visit

Oh we will, Peter, we will....................

We'll put out the lovely red carpet and put the big blinking sign up "Strictly for the use of the President of Ireland. No Heavy browed Englishmen allowed under pain of Death"

And we'll all enjoy Lord Johnny resurrect his perfectly heavy browed frown of indigation, we'll love how his towering frame strides forward with stiff-upper-lip chest stuck out.... we'll have a great old giggle when he glides onto the carpet and falls through the prepared "Gotcha this time!" thirty foot hole.

Don't warn him now and spoil the fun...

Does anyone have the picture of ROG meeting the queen with his hands in his pockets? That's quality

It was.... and it came after Johnny's joke.

greytiger wrote:
But would it be reasonable for Amhrán na bhFiann to be dropped?

I think it would be reasonable to drop it. Because the Ireland rugby team represents two states not just the bigger one. But it's there because obviously some people somewhere want it there. And they'd probably kick up a fuss if we tried to drop it. But since the IRFU has blissfully ignored, revolution, war, civil war, oppression and terrorism since it's foundation, I'm sure it could ignore a few people giving out.

But I don't like Ireland's Call either. I'd like something more Celtic and tribal and passionate. Even the lyrics could acknowledge the divisions in Ireland. Spare us the "together standing tall" pop rubbish. Just play something that'll get us fired up to tear into every opponent as if they were England.

This flags nonsense is just that I have never been in Belfast with someone who has gone do you know what really offends me the flag up there on city hall nor have I ever been in Belfast with someone who has said do you know what it just wouldn't feel like Belfast if that flag wasn't on City hall. It's the same about the anthems no one who actually likes rugby in Northern ireland cares if you don't think it's your anthem you don't sing and quite honestly if there was no anthem played for Ireland before the match I wouldn't give a monkeys.
I think we should change it to stand up for the irish men in honor of the most sucessful current irish province

Well said Neil


.....although like Cari, I am quite a fan of Ireland's Call ....

Can't we just steal this

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U06jlgpMtQs

rodders wrote:Well said Neil


.....although like Cari, I am quite a fan of Ireland's Call ....

Sssh Rodders if we pretend we don't like it the IRFU will keep it. It worked with kidney

Sorry but what has happened to start this debate now? Have I missed something?

I've never yet met a supporter from Northern Ireland who hated the playing of Amhran na bhFiann. Maybe there are loads, I don't know. I'm kind of shocked if there are though.

I love the shaking hands with the president because of it's origin as a type of "up yours" action by De Valera against the GAA. A lovely tradition formed in anger. After he was banned from the GAA (he was president at the time) for attending rugby matches (yes really) he not only kept attending rugby matches but made a point of going out and shaking hands with all the players at the next international instead of just sitting in the crowd.

From what I remember it was the Welsh that started the tradition of singing anthems before a match. I don't know how old the tradition is but if we got rid of it altogether it could solve a lot of arguments and be more pleasant than having to sing some of the drivel that we do in Ireland. I'd rather sing nothing myself than cause division between north and south.

Cari wrote:

profitius wrote:Whatever about the anthem they should stop the whole shaking hands with the president thing before the match. It takes way too long and to me just looks like some sort of political publicity stunt.

What?! No! That's one of my favourite bits!! Gives me a chance to check out the talent. Don't get that with any other country (the Haka's not bad, but they pull stupid faces), and let's be honest, Ireland does have some tasty players. Keep it in I say. Balls to politics, I want to drool!

Secretfly - I happen to like Ireland's Call, and I know some of the words, so I can join in a little bit

Who do you think is hot? Apart from Stephen Ferris there's no one anymore that makes me sigh on the team.

I really hate these debates... because there are people who feel strongly about these things..

From my own perspective I have no issue with Amhran na bhFiann being played, unfortunately we don't have an inclusive anthem but well it is what it is... I quite like Irelands call as a tune but the subdued reaction of the fans and players to it makes it a bit cringeworthy...

The Irish president doing the whole handshake thing is a nice touch.

.... but for the love of flip can we please can the dropkick murphys and the stupid pop music after the place kicks at the Aviva!

Intotouch wrote:

Cari wrote:

profitius wrote:Whatever about the anthem they should stop the whole shaking hands with the president thing before the match. It takes way too long and to me just looks like some sort of political publicity stunt.

What?! No! That's one of my favourite bits!! Gives me a chance to check out the talent. Don't get that with any other country (the Haka's not bad, but they pull stupid faces), and let's be honest, Ireland does have some tasty players. Keep it in I say. Balls to politics, I want to drool!

Secretfly - I happen to like Ireland's Call, and I know some of the words, so I can join in a little bit

Who do you think is hot? Apart from Stephen Ferris there's no one anymore that makes me sigh on the team.

Its just a guess but I think Cari like Tommy Bowe just a little bit in a completely normal, non stalkerish way of course

I think the IRFU will very sensibly stay out if this one, as per usual in Irish politics anything that pleases one side will automatically upset the other, so let sleeping dogs like.
Personally speaking I'd drop the anthem and Irelands Call, then get Horslips to write something specific.

Maybe we could have a tailored national anthem that takes the urine out of the opposition. Specifically change it for each team.

I think the IRFU should be consentrating on funding a 7's side. We are really missing out on all the fun. Even the UAE are looking to get a 7's team in.

They seem to just do it for sevens world cups or something every so often.

neilthom7 wrote:They seem to just do it for sevens world cups or something every so often.

I think it would be better to have a 7's team rather than the wolfhounds. How often do the Wolfhounds play and does it actually even help the players? Whereas theres a 7's tourney nearly every week.

No we need to keep the wolfhounds. We do need 7s rugby but not at the expense of A grade rugby, we need both I think.

Flags, anthems and emblems are expendable though ....

There are 9 tournaments a year that's hardly every week lol but yes we could use one but the Wolfhounds are very important as well and sevens you could argue doesn't produce a huge number of players outside the pacific islands because of the different general skillsets.

neilthom7 wrote:There are 9 tournaments a year that's hardly every week lol but yes we could use one but the Wolfhounds are very important as well and sevens you could argue doesn't produce a huge number of players outside the pacific islands because of the different general skillsets.

We should get another churchill cup type tourney going again. That was a great little competition. It also helped promote rugby in America.

Intotouch wrote:Sorry but what has happened to start this debate now? Have I missed something?

I've never yet met a supporter from Northern Ireland who hated the playing of Amhran na bhFiann. Maybe there are loads, I don't know. I'm kind of shocked if there are though.

You'll notice that it was Portnoys who started it up, not any of the Ulster posters

Notch wrote:

Intotouch wrote:Sorry but what has happened to start this debate now? Have I missed something?

I've never yet met a supporter from Northern Ireland who hated the playing of Amhran na bhFiann. Maybe there are loads, I don't know. I'm kind of shocked if there are though.

You'll notice that it was Portnoys who started it up, not any of the Ulster posters

Correct Notch. I was asking whether as emblems of socio-political power and dominance can cause civil disturbance in one area of the State, should the IRFU not quietly drop the Irish anthem in favour of the one which represents unity?

It was a genuine and real question to spark a grown-up rugby debate.

Listen this isn't something that will be solved by dropping an anthem or flying a flag, it's too deeply seeded for that. Sure look at the ulster team itself there are issues with supporters which instist on flying the Northern Irish flag at ulster matchs. This has been a hot bed of debate, a lot of people believe that this is something which drives off supporters from the nationalist community, which isn't completely true, as it hasn't kept me or my family away in fact there is a growing support for our province in that community despite the perceptions.

I am just using this as an example, but it just shows that no matter what you do you won't please everyone but the majority are happy with how it stands. I hate these type of threads as it gives credibility to occurances like what is going on in Belfast.

To answer the original post no the IRFU shouldn't take emblems etc out of Irish rugby, wise yourself up. I haven't heard any true supporter call for that. There is a bit of unrest from a minority against a democratic rulling by an elected council, why should the Irfu fuel the fires of this argument by trying to appease something which doesn't need to be appeased! The IRFU can stick to rugby and stay out of politics.

P.s that post isn't meant to sound condescending or rude, it's just mean to be a frank way of how I feel.

greytiger wrote:

Notch wrote:

Intotouch wrote:Sorry but what has happened to start this debate now? Have I missed something?

I've never yet met a supporter from Northern Ireland who hated the playing of Amhran na bhFiann. Maybe there are loads, I don't know. I'm kind of shocked if there are though.

You'll notice that it was Portnoys who started it up, not any of the Ulster posters

Correct Notch. I was asking whether as emblems of socio-political power and dominance can cause civil disturbance in one area of the State, should the IRFU not quietly drop the Irish anthem in favour of the one which represents unity?

It was a genuine and real question to spark a grown-up rugby debate.

Another feeble attempt by yourself to stir up tension amongst Irish rugby fans. The number of posts you make trying to draw a parallel between political lines and state divisions in Ireland with Irish rugby, is truly pathetic to be honest.

BelfastDickVet wrote: The IRFU can stick to rugby and stay out of politics.

Exactly

greytiger wrote:

Notch wrote:

Intotouch wrote:Sorry but what has happened to start this debate now? Have I missed something?

I've never yet met a supporter from Northern Ireland who hated the playing of Amhran na bhFiann. Maybe there are loads, I don't know. I'm kind of shocked if there are though.

You'll notice that it was Portnoys who started it up, not any of the Ulster posters

Correct Notch. I was asking whether as emblems of socio-political power and dominance can cause civil disturbance in one area of the State, should the IRFU not quietly drop the Irish anthem in favour of the one which represents unity?

It was a genuine and real question to spark a grown-up rugby debate.

Maybe it was or maybe it wasn't, but either way it does seem like nobody is too fussed- at least not rugby fans. I'm sure you could find some non-rugby fans to get pissy about it but this random sample of Irish Rugby fans from all provinces don't seem to care.

What we're seeing in Belfast right now is orchestrated rioting and intimidation by a very small minority of people, many of whom are known criminals. It's not representative of the vast majority who just want to get on with things.

greytiger wrote:Once again symbolic divisions cause real affray. And as I write, Hilary Clinton is dragged into Stormont.

Rugby has a history in apartheid days of including itself in political controversies.

The IRFU I appreciate (i.e. I admire) as a paragon of apoliticism in standing for remaining unified as a unified nation despite warring conflicts.

But would it be reasonable for Amhrán na bhFiann to be dropped?

Whilst the Hand of Man (in its NI symbolic context) is a cause of division today, should not the IRFU not remove symbols of the State of Ireland?

In my research for this post I stumbled across http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland_national_rugby_union_team#Flags_and_anthems (ever reliable) and what stood out was

With Ireland's friendly game against Italy in the run up to the 2007 Rugby World Cup scheduled to be held in Belfast, there were calls for "God Save the Queen" to be used alongside "Ireland's Call" but this was turned down by the IRFU[30] with the explanation given that both Ireland's Call and Amhrán na bhFiann are only played together in Dublin, and that outside of the Republic, Ireland's Call is exclusively used

Am confused by the point of this thread. Let's look at the OP line by line.

"Once again symbolic divisions cause real affray. And as I write, Hilary Clinton is dragged into Stormont."

What is the relevance of this? Is it even accurate? What does it even mean?

"Rugby has a history in apartheid days of including itself in political controversies."

So rugby became an issue in South Africa during apartheid era. True. Not sure what relevance this has either.

"The IRFU I appreciate (i.e. I admire) as a paragon of apoliticism in standing for remaining unified as a unified nation despite warring conflicts."

Leaving aside that this does not even make grammatical sense, it is simply inaccurate to assert that the IRFU stands for a unified nation. It doesn't. It's a body that represents a single sport across the island of Ireland, based on its historical provincial structure. (As do a number of other sports, as I understand it.) And what warring conflicts are you referring to?

"But would it be reasonable for Amhrán na bhFiann to be dropped? Whilst the Hand of Man (in its NI symbolic context) is a cause of division today, should not the IRFU not remove symbols of the State of Ireland?"

In the research you conducted, you may have noticed that both the Irish Tricolour and the flag of Ulster were used during the Rugby World Cup opening ceremony. Should they remove these as well?

At best this is a poorly informed article which attempts to drag irrelevant political non-events, historical injustice from another country - and an extract from Wikipedia to generate a debate about something that isn't an issue.

On the other hand, one could be forgiven for thinking that this is just a troll looking for a row.

But perhaps I'm being unfair about the writer's motivations. Would the poster care to tell us why he decided to write the article? What prompted it?

The guy is an out and out WUM and has a long history of trying to link Irish politics, the troubles, political and cultural identity with Irish rugby.

He has a serious chip on his shoulder towards Ireland and our rugby and has done for a long time. If he still used the Portnoy user name you could click on it and see his long history of talking utter garbage of the above type repeatedly. He makes these ridiculous posts which make some pitiful attempt to link rugby and political troubles here in the most vain way.

The fact that nobody in Irish rugby understands what the hell he is on about doesn't seem to make him take the hint. Nor does the fact that his knowledge of the things he is trying to talk about is incredibly limited.

PH,

But perhaps I'm being unfair about the writer's motivations. Would the poster care to tell us why he decided to write the article? What prompted it?

It was the am news which got me thinking laterally and being a rugby man, that prompted the post.

And unlike many, I'm not prone to exclusively fatuous arguments as whether A is better than B in competition C because D called it wrong.

I have arguments with Englishmen about the sheer illogicality of wage caps and Irishmen about issues like this, about the fundamental economics of the Celtic league, about IRB rankings (which I offered to you to host), about Law, rules and mechanisms which underpin refs, players and spectators' references of enjoyment and/or interpretations.

Mostly I just get interested about what most people see as peripheral.

Plus I have a personal wum rule. I always begin any deliberate wumming post with an obvious, specific health warning.

Well I think you can see the feeling amongst Irish supporters now so you won't need to ask again. Oh and Hilary Clinton was already on her way to Stormont before the trouble organised by a few and the flag isn't really what is causing it the trouble is caused by those who want a reason to riot and its taking away from stories that should be given more time like 3 teenagers and a father being killed in car accidents in the mid ulster area is less than a week.

greytiger wrote:PH,

But perhaps I'm being unfair about the writer's motivations. Would the poster care to tell us why he decided to write the article? What prompted it?

It was the am news which got me thinking laterally and being a rugby man, that prompted the post.

And unlike many, I'm not prone to exclusively fatuous arguments as whether A is better than B in competition C because D called it wrong.

I have arguments with Englishmen about the sheer illogicality of wage caps and Irishmen about issues like this, about the fundamental economics of the Celtic league, about IRB rankings (which I offered to you to host), about Law, rules and mechanisms which underpin refs, players and spectators' references of enjoyment and/or interpretations.

Mostly I just get interested about what most people see as peripheral.

Plus I have a personal wum rule. I always begin any deliberate wumming post with an obvious, specific health warning.

But where has the IRFU and its use of both tricolours and Ulster flags created any tension or disharmony in recent times?

You seek to link the circumstances from one current event to another but with no obvious grounds.

Intotouch wrote:

Cari wrote:

profitius wrote:Whatever about the anthem they should stop the whole shaking hands with the president thing before the match. It takes way too long and to me just looks like some sort of political publicity stunt.

What?! No! That's one of my favourite bits!! Gives me a chance to check out the talent. Don't get that with any other country (the Haka's not bad, but they pull stupid faces), and let's be honest, Ireland does have some tasty players. Keep it in I say. Balls to politics, I want to drool!

Secretfly - I happen to like Ireland's Call, and I know some of the words, so I can join in a little bit

Who do you think is hot? Apart from Stephen Ferris there's no one anymore that makes me sigh on the team.

Well, when there's no injuries....Tommy - goes without sayin' (and I'm not a stalker Neilly! I just have some taste...) Chilli con Kearney, Ferg McFadden, Fitzy, Heaslip's all right (without the silly tache), Ferris is cute actually and built like a brick wossname which is a bonus...I do miss Wally though.

Oh sorry, the thread was about flags...carry on...

I heard you were just using Bowe to get close to Trimble Cari any truth in this?

Murray?

neilthom7 wrote:I heard you were just using Bowe to get close to Trimble Cari any truth in this?

None Neilly. Tommy is number one. I've met him and he's a lovely man inside out. Not sure on Trimby...he's definately one of Ulster's Boyband Backline, but too square jawed and perfect looking for me if that makes sense. I'm sure he's a sound person though.

SecretFly wrote:Murray?

Didn't think you'd be into scrumhalves Fly...

Cari wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:I heard you were just using Bowe to get close to Trimble Cari any truth in this?

None Neilly. Tommy is number one. I've met him and he's a lovely man inside out.

Jeebus Cari, too much information there! ..this is a family forum you know...

Rodders - sorry...I forget there are kiddies on these boards, they're usually only about during internationals

Cari wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Murray?

Didn't think you'd be into scrumhalves Fly...

Flyhalves, scrumhalves, 13s and Healy Healy always looks devilishly good in a white "Rory McElroy" belt when out for his weekend DJ moonlighting!

Ah! Like going for a boogie when DJ Church is in the house do you?

I'm afraid I'm way off groove when if comes to modern DJing. Last time I went to one of those things Cindi Lauper was singing Girls Just wanta have Fun!!!............... God, time flies!

Pot Hale wrote:

greytiger wrote:PH,

But perhaps I'm being unfair about the writer's motivations. Would the poster care to tell us why he decided to write the article? What prompted it?

It was the am news which got me thinking laterally and being a rugby man, that prompted the post.

And unlike many, I'm not prone to exclusively fatuous arguments as whether A is better than B in competition C because D called it wrong.

I have arguments with Englishmen about the sheer illogicality of wage caps and Irishmen about issues like this, about the fundamental economics of the Celtic league, about IRB rankings (which I offered to you to host), about Law, rules and mechanisms which underpin refs, players and spectators' references of enjoyment and/or interpretations.

Mostly I just get interested about what most people see as peripheral.

Plus I have a personal wum rule. I always begin any deliberate wumming post with an obvious, specific health warning.

But where has the IRFU and its use of both tricolours and Ulster flags created any tension or disharmony in recent times?

You seek to link the circumstances from one current event to another but with no obvious grounds.

Actually my principle question was regarding symbols in general rather than flags in particular PH as was made abundantly clear in both the OP and the title.

p.s. the flag displayer in the IRB website is the IRFU one - not the tricolour. http://www.irb.com/unions/index.html
Quite rightly too imo as it is the the apolitical, unifying alternative.

I'm sure Tommy would be happy (and mildly disturbed) to hear that Cari I must say credit to you though I didn't see this thread going that way when I first commented on it lol

neilthom7 wrote:I'm sure Tommy would be happy (and mildly disturbed) to hear that Cari I must say credit to you though I didn't see this thread going that way when I first commented on it lol

Well...I prefer not to discuss politics or religion in these places much...and I'm not into vexillology either. My silliness has lifted the mood a bit anyway (I hope)

It sure has Cari and I'm with you on that I hate all politicians equally and can hardly be called religious so best I just stay out of it lol

Cari wrote:

Intotouch wrote:

Cari wrote:

profitius wrote:Whatever about the anthem they should stop the whole shaking hands with the president thing before the match. It takes way too long and to me just looks like some sort of political publicity stunt.

What?! No! That's one of my favourite bits!! Gives me a chance to check out the talent. Don't get that with any other country (the Haka's not bad, but they pull stupid faces), and let's be honest, Ireland does have some tasty players. Keep it in I say. Balls to politics, I want to drool!

Secretfly - I happen to like Ireland's Call, and I know some of the words, so I can join in a little bit

Who do you think is hot? Apart from Stephen Ferris there's no one anymore that makes me sigh on the team.

Well, when there's no injuries....Tommy - goes without sayin' (and I'm not a stalker Neilly! I just have some taste...) Chilli con Kearney, Ferg McFadden, Fitzy, Heaslip's all right (without the silly tache), Ferris is cute actually and built like a brick wossname which is a bonus...I do miss Wally though.

Oh sorry, the thread was about flags...carry on...

Yes yes, flags, hmmm, hmmm.
I forgot about Kearney! God it really is a long time since he played now. Heaslip sometimes looks handsome. Bowe is nice. But yes, David Wallace was the finest. He has such a beautiful voice too...