Manny - Post fight observations

Marquez deserves his moment in the sun!!! Great great technician, perhaps technicaly the best mexican ever!
We have been saying it for years but the lack of solid defensive know how in the wildcard gym has led to the unravelling of their boxers.... Manny finally gets hurt badly jumping in square, but this time does it into a right hand!
Thank you Bob Arum for denying boxing fans the the Ali vs Frazier fight of our generation!!!
Does this finally allow people to say grudgingly that having easily beat Marquez Floyd is the best of his generation?

Great fight, two warriors, one true boxer technically.
Thank God Manny was ok!

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGqRxiLqy7M

what a wally floyd looks now morelike, petty childishness has stopped him proving he's the best of his generation beyond doubt and denied him $50m+.what a wally indeed.

Both as bad as each other in fairness TH, fans lose out as well which is a shame. What a punch though, perfectly timed just glad to hear he was ok.

not really as we have seen for some time now that Manny has been on the slide and not at his best so many even predicted Manny to lose today.

And now he has been knocked out like this FMW will probably want the fight, even though its past its sell date. He has shown more interest since Manny has slowed down and it was only his jail sentence that stopped it from getting on I think.

Manny should retire, he is clearly not the fighter he was and has his mind on politics and other things. he will only damage his legacy fighting on... He wont though.

tunes666 wrote:not really as we have seen for some time now that Manny has been on the slide and not at his best so many even predicted Manny to lose today.

And now he has been knocked out like this FMW will probably want the fight, even though its past its sell date. He has shown more interest since Manny has slowed down and it was only his jail sentence that stopped it from getting on I think.

Manny should retire, he is clearly not the fighter he was and has his mind on politics and other things. he will only damage his legacy fighting on... He wont though.

I actually think Manny was great last night and looked back to his best. He was dominating the rounds and got ko'd because he heard the final 10 seconds bell and decided to just go gung ho. I am not sure why he did that because it left him open when he was doing fine not going gung ho.

victorgarco wrote:

tunes666 wrote:not really as we have seen for some time now that Manny has been on the slide and not at his best so many even predicted Manny to lose today.

And now he has been knocked out like this FMW will probably want the fight, even though its past its sell date. He has shown more interest since Manny has slowed down and it was only his jail sentence that stopped it from getting on I think.

Manny should retire, he is clearly not the fighter he was and has his mind on politics and other things. he will only damage his legacy fighting on... He wont though.

I actually think Manny was great last night and looked back to his best. He was dominating the rounds and got ko'd because he heard the final 10 seconds bell and decided to just go gung ho. I am not sure why he did that because it left him open when he was doing fine not going gung ho.

dominating? he got knocked down in the 3rd and was taking some huge shots.

You're a Floyd fan Azumah.....

Certainly always had Floyd over Manny myself but let's be honest...It's took a helluva long time for Manny and Roach's gym to have their so called flaws exposed...Khan was open prior to going there..

Manny is a nailed on great......who has found FATHERTIME.....

The fight doesn't really tell us anything as both are past it.....and rightly or wrongly Manny leads the quadrilogy so obviously his defence isn't that bad or else he would've been starched by all the greats he's faced...

I like you... but you're a reverse d4 on this subject and I can just see the satisfying grin on your face when Manny hit the deck.

For sure write an article like this but please tell the newbies of your "INTEREST" as well!!

OasisBFC wrote:

victorgarco wrote:

tunes666 wrote:not really as we have seen for some time now that Manny has been on the slide and not at his best so many even predicted Manny to lose today.

And now he has been knocked out like this FMW will probably want the fight, even though its past its sell date. He has shown more interest since Manny has slowed down and it was only his jail sentence that stopped it from getting on I think.

Manny should retire, he is clearly not the fighter he was and has his mind on politics and other things. he will only damage his legacy fighting on... He wont though.

I actually think Manny was great last night and looked back to his best. He was dominating the rounds and got ko'd because he heard the final 10 seconds bell and decided to just go gung ho. I am not sure why he did that because it left him open when he was doing fine not going gung ho.

dominating? he got knocked down in the 3rd and was taking some huge shots.

Manny also knocked down marquez. Apart from the round manny got knocked down I gave him every round (and both fighters scored a knock down).

Manny looked quick and was landing the better punches. People will say manny is past it cos he got KO'd but it was due to him just going wild for no reason when he heard the last 10 seconds bell rather than him being outboxed etc.

Absolutely........He got caught.......Leonard was decked a few times as well...more than Manny!!

guess he was technically inefficient.....

First time in nearly 14 years Manny has been stopped (last time he was a novice)

I rate Floydy higher...top 10 for me...

But Manny isn't far behind and he's higher than Marquez for sure...

Manny did look good last night, he literally was caught cold by those two huge counters by Marquez.

I think it was more of a case that Marquez has seemingly acquired huge power at the weight. Unlike the Mayweather fight, where he looked overweight and sluggish, this fight he was in terrific condition- whether it be from his new conditioner or something else, I wouldn't want to speculate.

I don't think Manny should retire, if he takes a prolonged absence from the fight game then it's obvious he doesn't have the fire in his heart to continue. But on that performance, he could well give FMJ problems as Mayweather albeit a great counter puncher is certainly no banger.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

I rate Floydy higher...top 10 for me...

But Manny isn't far behind and he's higher than Marquez for sure...

I'm a huge fan of manny Truss but to be so dismissive of Marquez is a bit ill judged. Why is manny better than him for sure? Have you forgotten 10-1-1? Marquez has given manny his four toughest fights, across 21lbs and 8 years. Despite what the record books say many would argue that he won the 1st, most would argue he also won the 3rd and there's obviously no argument he won the 4th. Marquez is not only mannys kryptonite but he's also had a fine career in his own right. I agree manny would rank higher than JMM as an all time p4per, but is he a better fighter? I'm not so sure.

Didn't see anything in Pacman to suggest he was past it. Quite the opposite actually. Looked explosive in terms of speed and power and was actually outboxing Marquez, if the bell had sounded for the end of the round I'd have had him 2 up at that point.

The only thing Manny looked to be doing wrong was getting careless and paid the price with a knockout of the year shot.

Would suggest that it's counter punchers (extremely good ones) who are Manny's cryptonite, not just Marquez.

Thought Manny looked great last night up until the ko. He upped his aggression levels. Which played into the ko. He literally jumped headfirst into Marquez's straight right. It must have been in Mannys head that the judges weren't going to be on his side, cause he really went for it. It really was reckless against such a good counter pucher.
Manny doesn't get much credit from his part in the quad of fights, but when you think of him getting out boxed for ten rounds in the first fight, maybe it's him that made the biggest improvements since then.

Brutle knock out mind you. Boooommmm!!!

coxy0001 wrote: Would suggest that it's counter punchers (extremely good ones) who are Manny's cryptonite, not just Marquez.

He hasn't really fought any other extremely good counter punchers to prove or disprove that theory. And Marquez hasn't just counterpunched or fought off the back foot for all 42 rounds they've fought. It's not just JMM's countering that has troubled manny, it's his shot selection and punch accuracy, his durability, chin, ring smarts and all round technical competency.

Manny isn't past it though, but his career would be better spent steering clear of Marquez as the man will continue to give him hell for as long as they keep fighting.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Certainly always had Floyd over Manny myself but let's be honest...It's took a helluva long time for Manny and Roach's gym to have their so called flaws exposed...Khan was open prior to going there..

are you joking???coz its been obvious ever since the second fight they had that manny and roach struggle to get it right against a boxer like marquez.thats why manny was always put up against easy to hit boxers.khan and manny are very similiar,the difference is one was able to take a shot,and one cant.but they both are too easy to hit,get careless and leave themselves wide open.now it looks like mannys punching resistance has declined,he cant take those kinda shots he's taken in his other fights anymore.roach didnt make khan any better defensively in all that time he had to train him.

I think both fighters felt that they couldnt risk the fight going to decision which made it even more explosive.

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:

coxy0001 wrote: Would suggest that it's counter punchers (extremely good ones) who are Manny's cryptonite, not just Marquez.

He hasn't really fought any other extremely good counter punchers to prove or disprove that theory. And Marquez hasn't just counterpunched or fought off the back foot for all 42 rounds they've fought. It's not just JMM's countering that has troubled manny, it's his shot selection and punch accuracy, his durability, chin, ring smarts and all round technical competency.

Manny isn't past it though, but his career would be better spent steering clear of Marquez as the man will continue to give him hell for as long as they keep fighting.

Would probably argue that prior to Marquez the last guy he faced to counter him effectively was when he lost to Morales. There's a reason why he didn't face a sterner test @ 135 than Diaz, 140 against a shot Hatton etc and 147 against FMJ. Yes there's politics behind certain fights not getting made but there were fights against guys who weren't 'made' for him stylistically.

Disagree on steering clear of Marquez. The only 2 fights out there are FMJ and Marquez. Fights either of those next (and wins) his legacy is enhanced further. Wouldn't get much out of a Bradley/Guerrero fight, although the latter does deserve a shot at someone - Marquez anyone? Would make for a pretty decent scrap I'd say!

Diaz was a belt holder at 135 and a Top Rank fighter - it was an obvious fight to make. Manny wouldve stayed at 135 longer had Oscar not come looking for a popular name to beat up. Nobody was saying Hatton was shot when manny fought him, and the fact he never met PBF at 147 was as much Floyds fault as it was mannys.

Diaz was a belt holder at 135 and a Top Rank fighter - it was an obvious fight to make

Was recognised as one of the worst champs around so not really. Casamayor, Diaz, heck even Katsidis were better options/fighters.

I honestly thought Manny looked riproaring last night, the best I've seen him since he fought against Cotto. Looked quick powerful in and out movement, terrific headmovement, his legs looked just as quick, he looked super sharp, he got caught by two HUGE punches he just never saw coming, the Manny of a few years back wouldn't have taken them either. The first one his glove was in the way f his eyes and the punch came right around the side and caught him bang on the chin. The other one would have killed a horse.

manny was pushing the fight a lot more which was something I reckoned he would do, I just didn't think that Marquez could KO him like that.

coxy0001 wrote:

Diaz was a belt holder at 135 and a Top Rank fighter - it was an obvious fight to make

Was recognised as one of the worst champs around so not really. Casamayor, Diaz, heck even Katsidis were better options/fighters.

Didn't say he was a good champion, just that as a belt holder & TR fighter it was an obvious fight for mannys first at 135. Had Oscar not come calling I don't think manny wouldve been quaking in his boots avoiding Juan Diaz, Casamayor or Katsidas.

Can't be doing with this revisionism that manny was a ducker or avoided challenges as that just wasn't the case. He took a soft fight in marg & Mosley, but even getting back in with JMM last night was the biggest challenge out there (besides Floyd) given how their previous fights had gone, likewise Bradley was an undefeated champ who manny fought this year. He nearly always steps up to the challenge.

Yeah, I actually think it's partially potluck that Manny hasn't fought another great counter puncher, apart from the difficulties of getting the Floyd fight on, that no one is actually 100% clear about.

Mannys last soft fight was Diaz. It's revisionist to decide all the boxers that Manny creamed since then were soft fights.

jimdig wrote:Mannys last soft fight was Diaz. It's revisionist to decide all the boxers that Manny creamed since then were soft fights.

Erm, Margarito? Clottey?

He was a light weight fighting a light middle in both clottey and marg (effectively). There were plenty of pundits that thought he may have reached too far. Just because he battered them doesn't mean they were soft option.

If I battered wlad, it doesn't mean I took a soft option, just because I batter him.

Do you automatically discredit a win if it's a boxing clinic?

coxy0001 wrote:

jimdig wrote:Mannys last soft fight was Diaz. It's revisionist to decide all the boxers that Manny creamed since then were soft fights.

Erm, Margarito? Clottey?

Margarito wasn't a soft fight because of the size difference. Clottey was but he had given Cotto all he could handle.

Manny was fighting a far better fight than the 3rd IMO. Had him winning but MArquez starched him cold. Was a fantastic fight and I am glad it didn't go to the cards.

To see a future HOF KO'd like that, wow! Hatton flashed through my head, so did Duran v Hearns and of course Pwill v Martinez.

I actually thought Manny looked better last night too. Quick, sharp foot movement and after the 5th I had him 2 points up. Obviously Marquez made all tht irrelevant, and I was so pleased for him. At the 4th attempt, and after he should've had 3 victories he managed to take it out the judges hands.

Clottey had previous to the Manny fight shown no signs that he could be slightly discouraged from coming forward in either the Judah fight or the cotto fight. Cotto ran for the whole fight, Judah lost his heart, saying he was blind. Clottey was a legitimate top 5 welter that noone wanted to fight.
Marge, well he was giving a buy for not having his head in the Mosley fight, and well we all say what he did to cotto.

Yes they were both easy fights for Manny, but only in hindsight. The clottey fight, I was thinking he was bought, not to through a punch.

Marquez was always going to be a HOF, but now he has a signature win that was lacking from his resume. And he achieved it in a fashion that no one will ever forget. 5th fight out of the question? I didn't want 4 and I don't want 5, but no one can deny that the interest would be there.

Marquez is very old now, especially for someone fighting at lighter weights. He wasn't as effective in countering as last year and got busted up pretty well by Pac. But his power in this fight and his ability to stay calm even when he is bloodied is just amazing. Marquez had a broken nose that would have made it very difficult for the rest of the fight to breathe, and look how calm he stayed. Amazing fight

It really is a testament to Marquez conditioning, I thought he looked a tad slower, but that could be to do with the seeming extra bulk he had on him, not age. He picked his punches perfectly when he threw them. I honestly think Manny was just harder to counter last night, when he threw he was making darting movements real in and out was making himself difficult to time and his head movement was giving Marquez plenty of problems, who was also very smart and went to the body perfectly.

AlexHuckerby wrote:It really is a testament to Marquez conditioning, I thought he looked a tad slower, but that could be to do with the seeming extra bulk he had on him, not age. He picked his punches perfectly when he threw them. I honestly think Manny was just harder to counter last night, when he threw he was making darting movements real in and out was making himself difficult to time and his head movement was giving Marquez plenty of problems, who was also very smart and went to the body perfectly.

Manny really was smarter than in the previous fight, but for that last punch he might have been able ot develop a nice lead on the cards. But Marquez was in every round and throwing with real venom (obviously). Bottom line. Amazing fight, especially for two men that are a fair bit beyond their physcial primes. As much as I don't want a fifth fight, it is the only fight that makes sense for them both. Marquez is too old to start mixing it with the young guys int he division. Not saying he can't beat them but he has a legacy to think of now, and also, what credit would he really get for beating the like of Rios now? He might want to square the Manny series? As for Manny, he can't beat Floyd and that isn't happening. He doesn't want Brasdley again and who can blame him, so why not try and erase this defeat.

Perfect world, theyboth retire and let us argue over who won more in the series. Now Marquez has this win it is far less enfuriating he didn't get nod in previous three

to be honest I wouldn't mind seeing a 5th fight. I actually think anything can hapen when these two square up, it's such a tactical battle that breaks out into mini wars, and because there's so many flash exchanges there literally can be anything that happens during the fight, like we saw last night, both fighters decked, one flattened.

Did they really have to focus on pacquaios missus while shes distressed and trying to get to the ring?

After this fight I'm all for a 5th fight, both looked to be at the top of their game. This wasn't a Vasquez vs Marquez IV - these 2 guys looked in great nick.

Heck, I'd probably fly out to see it!

Think some are forgetting we've just had what I now consider to be the FOTY between 2 top P4P fighters who looked in serious form. Why wouldn't we want to see a 5th fight?!

I'm a big Marquez fan, never denied it... He's great to watch. But last night was unusual. I've been saying it for weeks and I'm going to down right say it now...

I think Marquez is juiced.

School Project wrote:I'm a big Marquez fan, never denied it... He's great to watch. But last night was unusual. I've been saying it for weeks and I'm going to down right say it now...

I think Marquez is juiced.

He seemed to have a Donkey kick in his right hand, I know that much. Ha. But on a serious note, nothing would surprise me with juiced boxers, even the ones I admire.


They could book a 5th fight now in may and it would have even more interest than this one, because they gave us something new last night.

I'm thinks its too easy to say that Marquez was juicing imo and people are forgetting that marquez had 4/5 months all of which he was preparing like a monster so its not unreasonable to know how he improved his body mass. People may say about his power but if you catch anyone that cleanly (both knockdowns) anyone can knock someone down. Marquez has buzzed pacquiao in each of there 3 fights and this was the biggest Marquez to date. His power wasn't moving Pacquiao around the ring and if he was hitting that much harder then I doubt pacquiao would have wanted to engage as much as he did

If he was juiced he would have retained alot more speed as he did look a lot slower and had been hurt a couple times before the knockout so it wasn't as if he was walking through pacquiao's best shots without flinching. Marquez looked the bigger of the 2 in the 3rd fight yet no-one was accusing him then

WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs wrote:I'm thinks its too easy to say that Marquez was juicing imo and people are forgetting that marquez had 4/5 months all of which he was preparing like a monster so its not unreasonable to know how he improved his body mass. People may say about his power but if you catch anyone that cleanly (both knockdowns) anyone can knock someone down. Marquez has buzzed pacquiao in each of there 3 fights and this was the biggest Marquez to date. His power wasn't moving Pacquiao around the ring and if he was hitting that much harder then I doubt pacquiao would have wanted to engage as much as he did

If he was juiced he would have retained alot more speed as he did look a lot slower and had been hurt a couple times before the knockout so it wasn't as if he was walking through pacquiao's best shots without flinching. Marquez looked the bigger of the 2 in the 3rd fight yet no-one was accusing him then

His conditioning coach is a known and convicted Steroid pusher, steroids don't necessarily make you quicker or invincible to punches. Angel Heredia or Memo Hernandez as he is now known is known throughout the sporting world for bragging about his untraceable products...

http://deadspin.com/5857439/what-do-usain-bolt-and-juan-manuel-marquez-have-in-common-they-train-with-the-same-admitted-steroids-dealer

Coupled with the fact that last night's fight had the most basic of drug testing, I will be suspicious of JMMs power.

I dont think so WHu. Marquez planted his feet - he wasnt appreciably slower - just when he was throwing. I agree though on the size issue - he had a while to train for it and just seems to have grown into it. Hsi condition has improved since he came up against Mayweather where he looked fleshy. He just put on a few pounds of muscle rather than fat.

I wasn't sold on the 4th fight, but all up for a 5th fight now. I have no problem seeing anything like that spectacle again.

Just out of interest did anyone see Marquez size against Fedchenko?

Any comments made on this topic (and missed by the moderation team)

Think one of the mod team said they thought he was juicing... just sayin'

a lot of people are praising manny, and he looked good. but he didnt throw the fight away by going in gung ho. marquez timed im to perfection.

marquez won by measuring manny up and then exploding the perfect punch.

School Project wrote:I'm a big Marquez fan, never denied it... He's great to watch. But last night was unusual. I've been saying it for weeks and I'm going to down right say it now...

I think Marquez is juiced.

That would be the one thing I would least like to discover. However, such news would not surprise me. His physique and performance could be a result of entirely legitimate means, but likewise the presence of characters such as his strength & conditioning guy, and in Ward's case Victor Conte, certainly does the sport no favours. They might well be cases of 'poacher turned gamekeeper', but the fact these guys have a shady past at all should be enough to really restrict their involvement in boxing. Would anyone be at all surprised if it transpired that many of the big names and top talents in boxing today had been juicing, hiding behind mutually-acknowledged threats of lawsuits? A storm is brewing, and boxing will soon enough have its own Lance Armstrong scenario.

Adam D wrote:Can I just point out that no one should be making libelous comments about people being drug cheats unless proven.

Any comments made on this topic (and missed by the moderation team) are not the views of the forum or its owners.

All comments relating to people "juicing" without evidence will be removed.

Hey Adam,

Don't want to cause a poo-storm of course, but just to give you the heads-up, not a great deal of stuff posted on this topic can be considered "libel" as the thoughts posed by people on here can't really amount to a defamation case.

After all, this is a public forum where debates and thoughts are discussed.

English Tort is that - defamation/libel can only be accounted for should the individual making the comment is setting out with the intention of malice/showing disregard of truth.

A couple of defences against Libel or "Defamation of Character" include:

1. Justification to the statement made.
2. "Fair Comment" (this is where a view is made with reasonable circumstances behind it).

English law is that it is only possible to sue under this act should the individual is likely to lose trade - it's highly unlikely that JMM is going to be banned from boxing because we question his conditioning coach.

I believe that as Juan Manuel Marquez is utilizing a convicted steroid pusher gives someone with a reasonable forethought enough basis to make their own judgement, without it defaming the individual, especially as we all have stated that it is in our opinion only and without justifiable evidence.

Quoting English Law is irrelevant SP, on here the moderation team are the law.

Adam has made the forum's position quite clear, so please comply.

Union Cane wrote:Quoting English Law is irrelevant SP, on here the moderation team are the law.

Adam has made the forum's position quite clear, so please comply.

No problems Union... I always have done, always will do.

Just thought I'd "throw it out there" in case Adam was thinking of opening up his own Leveson Inquiry.

I also think Adam is juiced.