India v England 4th Test, Nagpur

First topic message reminder :

So we are reaching the last lap of the series with lots of things at stake.
England are 2-1 up, and this is a historic chance for Alastair Cook's side to make history by winning a series in India after 28 years. After a dreadful year where they lost 7 test matches and the well earned number one ranking, England seem to be getting firmly back on track.
Captain Cook is leading from the front, Kevin Pietersen and Matt Prior are backing him well with the bat and Nick Compton has been solid if not spectacular. Of late Jonathan Trott also found some form. James Anderson has been good, Monty Panesar and Graeme Swann comfortably outbowled their Indian spin counterparts.
There are injury concerns though Steven Finn, who bowled very well in the last match is almost ruled out. Stuart Broad won't be able to step in for him, as he's already ruled out. That leaves a straight choice between Tim Bresnan and Graeme Onions. Bresnan has struggled to match his ashes form since his elbow troubles, and was pretty poor at Ahmedabad in the first test. Onions didn't have a great time in the tour matches. I would personally go for Onions, who has more pace than Bresnan has and bowls a wicket to wicket line. But England might prefer Bresnan's experience and his previous record in the sub-continent. There are questions over Samit Patel's place as well. Patel hasn't really gone on to play a big innings so far, but he has got a few important starts. If Finn's ruled out, his 5th bowling option would be more handy for England.
As far as India go, its a test match at the crossroads for them. The team has lost 2 back to back home tests after 12 years. They are facing the prospect of a home series loss after 8 years. All these come on top of the disasters in England and Australia. The batting isn't firing, the spinners are being outbowled. The leader of the pace pack is send packing by the selectors. There are shrill calls for the captain's head.
Captain Mahendra Singh Dhoni expects his side to show some character in these circumstances. He expects Gautam Gambhir to convert one of those starts into a big one and he believes Sachin Tendulkar, as he has often done will deliver for his team and prove the speculators wrong. He things he can handle the criticism coming his way.
They are sure to go in with 2 changes as Zaheer Khan and Yuvraj Singh who played the previous matches are dropped. It could be Ajinkya Rahane's much anticipated test debut. He might bat 6 in place or else they can bat him at 5 and push Virat Kohli to 6. The other option is to pick Ravindra Jadeja who has been in the form of his life in the Ranji Trophy this season. Jadeja has already scored over 800 runs with 2 triple hundreds for Saurashtra and has picked 26 wickets with his left-arm spin. Playing Jadeja would mean they can play 3 spinners without losing the balance of the attack. The absence of Zaheer and the unavailability of the injured Umesh Yadav might mean that Ishant Sharma's experience might see him playing. Remains to bee seen as to who would partner him in the seam bowling department. Ashok Dinda has been in the squad for some time, Parvinder Awana has good pace and recent good form.
As far as the pitch goes, cricinfo reports that it hasn't been watered for the last couple of days. So the dry pitch should turn. From when onwards and how much remains to bee seen.
Weather is expected to stay good.

the BCCI seem like Fifa tbh.. Dinsours when it comes to tech..

They probally use the line that if it isnt perfect then dont use it!

Not sure what there real reasons are.!!

The fact is DRS isnt perfect as we know but its a massive improvement.. with DRS we seem to get a much bigger perecntage of correct decisions.. They take away the howlers anyway

mystiroakey wrote:Yes msp.. I really would like india to get some really bad luck towards the end- well both teams have anyway- but if the luck swings in englands favour- then they may take not!!

Doesn't matter India or England. The Cook call yester was terrible, the Pujara one has been dreadful. These haven't been the only ones, each of the 4 test has seen too many of these.
Biltong the BCCI things the technology isn't perfect. They are very much right as well. But the point is that DRS helps in reducing bad umpiring calls and the game is much better for that. Its just nonsense that the bd decisions would even out in the long run.

DRS doesn't take away all howlers, but it helps make a lot more correct calls and for me the search for perfection can continue even when the BCCI, like most other boards would go for the DRS. But the DRS debate is obviously a large one, the BCCI is not alone to be blamed but we have had this debate for long.......

If the bad decisions even out in the long run why bother with proper umpires at all? We could just toss a coin to decide if it was out or not, it would even itself over time.

It is very interesting to note that whilst the indian commentators are complaining about bad umpiring decisions not one of them suggests the need, or indeed benefit, of using DRS. Could this be intentional? i,e, they have been instructed to not voice an opinion about it. It just seems strange given that the english commentators on sky mention its absence every time their is a close call.

Oh, a chance goes missing for England!.

Ok not quite sure why my post reposted....sure I didn't do that

Prior hasn't been as assured as he was in the summer behind the stumps. He hasn't been terrible, but he hasn't been very sharp either.

By the way the ball has started turning a bit more. The shut shop attitude of the Indian batsmen not helping matters.

Biltong wrote:what is the reason the BCCI do not want to use the DRS?

Cost, (lack of the right payments being made to the right lunch funds), traditionalism, ignorance, focusiing on the flaws in the system as an excuse to not face up to what it does well.
To hear some of them talk about it is reminiscent of creationalists arguments against evolutionary theory. "they admit themselves its not 100% accurate therefor it doesnt work". Maybe an element of having convinced themselves they dont want to beleive its good and the cost issues.

Personaly I dont see a problem with ahving limited DRS mandatory and other parts optional. Its sub optimal but a better comprimise. I suspect the all or nothing and all tests must have the same calls are really led by the anti--brigade to put more obstacles in its path.

It must be massively frustarting for thsoe who have invested huge sums developing this technology and funding its use ( at a cost to themselves) in trails only to have it rejected for sometimes spurious reasons.

At least the umpires have moved on from their initial relutance ( ie refusing to overturn anything under the old system) and realise it actually heklps get them off the hook at times, shows when they have made good decisions ( more often than not) and also improves relations with players and defuses tension on the pitch.

Cook's got Anderson back on, he has got Tendulkar more than most bowlers.

You couldn't call the Pujara wicket a howler ! It looked out , if it missed the glove it was by millimeters...even with drs the third umpire would have been getting out his microscope...

But true , there have been a fair few shockers in this series.

Obvious move really. Spinners havent really been very effective given the number of overs theyve bowled in this match

Tendulkar could be playing for his future here, two failures and surely he has to admit hes done at this level?

Another one, Sachin Tendulkar, he's been attracting some very good balls, and he has done it again. India in a sea of trouble here. An out of form Virat Kohli to come in at 5.

alfie wrote:You couldn't call the Pujara wicket a howler ! It looked out , if it missed the glove it was by millimeters...even with drs the third umpire would have been getting out his microscope...

But true , there have been a fair few shockers in this series.

The ball came of Pujara's elbow and the pad. Not really close to the gloves.

Hai...oh Bai

It was almost too obvious, its like seeing KP come out "call up the left arm spinner"

Gambhir can prove a lot here by staying in as anchor. hes taken a bashing recently, but its not so long ago he was the top arted opener in the world.

"It must be massively frustarting for thsoe who have invested huge sums developing this technology and funding its use ( at a cost to themselves) in trails only to have it rejected for sometimes spurious reasons."

Hawkeye spent millions on developing a brilliant tech for goal line.. Then it got rejected last minute- even though extended trials suggested that it improved decision making from 80% to 99.99%

msp83 wrote:Cook's got Anderson back on, he has got Tendulkar more than most bowlers.

More than any , now , I think...nine times.

Good call by Cook...Monty was bowling well to Tendulkar , but Jimmy has had his number lately...

Ajinkya Rahane's test debut is getting ever so closer. Don't Tendulkar will stay on for long. It is possible this would be his last test, particularly if India mess things up further.

BBC seems to suggest Pujura walked and the ball was mm from the gloves. There's no comparison with the Cook on which was one of the most laughable lbw decisions I have ever seen.

mystiroakey wrote:"It must be massively frustarting for thsoe who have invested huge sums developing this technology and funding its use ( at a cost to themselves) in trails only to have it rejected for sometimes spurious reasons."

Hawkeye spent millions on developing a brilliant tech for goal line.. Then it got rejected last minute- even though extended trials suggested that it improved decision making from 80% to 99.99%

Actually thi sis a good point. We bash the BCCI for this but soccer despite its billions still lives ion the dark ages. Instea dof using the technology they rely on an extra ref whos view is often obscured and is still prone to howlers. They pay this guty to stand around getting spat on by the vile fans and maybe make a decision one every 5 games. Its ridiculous.

Tendulkar was done in by the low bounce, but then perhaps he should have expected it? Anderson did set him up well, a couple of them went away, the next one shaped in a touch and kept low. But Tendulkar had no reason to be surprised by the low bounce on the track, the bounce hasn't been good at all throughout.

VTR wrote:BBC seems to suggest Pujura walked and the ball was mm from the gloves. There's no comparison with the Cook on which was one of the most laughable lbw decisions I have ever seen.

Pujara was surprised by the sharp take from Cook, but he hasn't really walked. In fact he was disappointed at the call. and the ball came of his elbow, not seriously close to the gloves.

Not going along too badly for England now. I would say that the test match and series is now looking likely to be Englands

TREB QUICK FIX THE DAMAGE

Getting better and better

Jimmy on fire here...gets Gambhir with another beauty

India in trouble now...Dhoni in at six...

The good news for India is Jimmy can't bowl all day and its unlikely Bresnan will cause as many problems. So they need to hang in there and see Jimmy off, which with a bit of application should be possible.

Anderson gets Gambhir, 3-1 seems the order of the day.
Mahendra Singh Dhoni promotes himself up the order. Taking the challenge head on. Will it come off for MS?

MS Dhoni has to play an innings to save the series for his team and his captaincy as well. lose this test, that certainly will be the end. Even his place in the side could be questioned.

There is Jadeja, Ashwin and Chawla the all-rounders to come in, but they can't be expected to save the side from a position where the top order can't even put up hundred on the board.

Dhoni has to play more like the pre-captaincy version, counterattack, that seems to be the only possible way to try and defuse the situation.

OHH JIMMY JIMMY..

Its the one thing in Indias favour, that have 4 players capable of doing a Swann.

Oh and good on Dhoni for taking repsonsibility of the debutants shoulders and stepping up to take on cpatins resposnbility at 6 when its needed.

He may not be up to he task mind but at least hes leading the counter attack.

Could be Custers last stand for his captancy mind (and would that mean his test place?)

Sehwag and Gambhir have also been underperforming and Tendulkar hasnt got too much left in him. I would still have Dhoni keeping even if he's not captain. But the openers can't get away with scoring 30s and 40s and even 50s. They need to score big and set up a good platform. The Indian openers haven't been able to do that, so before I would have Dhoni dropped I'd look at the openers. Sehwag is an impact player and he has scored a hundred in this series. Gambhir has wasted away all the starts he got in this series and its time to go back to domestic cricket so that he would regain his focus.

Very good piece by Rob somebody on cricinfo about Tendulkar.

Its more a case of would he retire himself if he lost the capatincy? If they lose the series 1-3 that seems almost certain, givien some of the things heckles hes receiving from senior figures and how close he came to be ousted even before this series.
Id agree that if they dropped an opener and lost Tendulkar along with all the other recent departures that it would be a lot to drop him outright as well.

Whats the stock of keeper batsmen like for India?

England had their number 6, 7, and 9 contributing 73, 57 and 56, helping them recover from 139-5 to 330. India too have a better lower order batting lineup in this match. Dhoni and Kohli are out in the middle, and now if Jadeja, Ashwin and Chawla can produce something similar to what Root, Prior, and Swann did, India can still get back in this game. But first, Kohli and Dhoni need to set up some sort of recovery platform for the lower order.

Ashwin has been among the better batsmen for India in this series, in fact the 2nd best for that matter, Jadeja has just scored a couple of triple hundreds in the ongoing Ranji season and is on top of the run scoring chart. Piyush Chawla blasted a hundred against Maharashtra in the Ranji and in the last match he played, scored a stroke filled 85.
Somehow, I just feel a little hopeful here.

Jonathan Trott with the last over of the day.

msp83 wrote:Jonathan Trott with the last over of the day.

Peculiar move...

87/4 England's day.

87-4 at the end of the day. Dhoni and Kohli with a job at their hands for tomorrow.
England's day, no questions.

well england somehow keeping there run rate down has almost handed india almost no chance to get this win..

Well played england- day 2 - Englands!!

Why did Trott bowl that last over? Sometimes you feel captains can overthink things. Should surely have been Anderson, absolutely the last bowler the batsmen would want to face.

Excellent day for England anyway, in a far better position now then I dared hoped for at the end of yesterday.

Very big turn-around in the game since tea yesterday - Looked like England could be scuppered for about 200, but excellent batting from Root, Prior and Swann swung things round to get us to a near-par score.

Great start for Anderson in getting Sehwag, but then a 50 partnership made it start to look like India were in the game. One dodgy decision for Pujara and some good bowling from Anderson (and pressure retained at the other end by Panesar) and suddenly England are right on top.

India need a big partnership from these two and solid contributions from the rest of their lower middle order batsmen if they are to have any chance - need to get ahead (really by 100+) on the first innings if they are to push for the win. Looks an awfully long way away at the moment, especially as this seems to be a funny wicket - you can stay in reasonably well, but scoring safely is difficult.

I assume they were trying to tenpt one of them into taking a swipe at him. They could happily scarifice a 4 in return for a wicket chance, its been shown again and again that the batsmen are hard to get out till they try a shot. Good discipline for them not to.

I'll admit that I may have underestimated the difficulty of this surface somewhat, although the fact that England made 330 (and Swann a 50) despite so many soft dismissals suggests to me that 400+ was well within range of a team that batted well.

I don't mind Dhoni going in at 6. He has the experience and promoting himself at key times has worked in the past. Should he lose the captaincy I expect he would he either retire from Tests or stay in the side: he's a good 'keeper-batsman really. Not as good as Prior in either department, but I'm not aware of any Indian whose anywhere near as good as Dhoni is.

Jimmy showing his class again, and India getting themselves in a mess.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:I assume they were trying to tenpt one of them into taking a swipe at him. They could happily scarifice a 4 in return for a wicket chance, its been shown again and again that the batsmen are hard to get out till they try a shot. Good discipline for them not to.

No harm trying something different, and Trott has taken a couple of wickets in the past. Slow pitch, with the ball perhaps stopping a little should make it hard to time a shot against someone like Trott who doesn't give you that much pace (it might be easier to play shots against Anderson and Bresnan on this pitch). The match position means we can take a chance for a couple of overs to try and buy a wicket, and Dhoni in particular has a reputation for looking to play aggressively.

Yes I guess that was what Cook was thinking. But Trott seems a strange choice even so : KP is more the sort of bowler I'd be using to tempt an indiscretion ...or even Root - they won't have seen him bowl.
Not that it mattered. Just a hunch I suppose.

Great day for England. But India still has some batting so they need to keep the pressure up tomorrow morning.