The Greats That Got Away Dos: Lewis v Bowe

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Another one about great fights that didn't happen, which means technically this might count as a series. However I don't want it to go the same way as the rowley and tuna threads: Well written, informative, insightful, largely ignored. That's why this time, instead of comparing the modern politicing of Mayweather and Pacquiao to the old day skullduggery of Burley and Sugar Ray Robinson, we're keeping it new school with some 90's big men.

You never know, this one might even coax azania out of whichever tight gap it is that someone told him was too narrow to fit a human through, prompting him to throw himself into it.

Last time the story of the fight not happening was down to colour, the mob, money and a refusal of one fighter to risk his ethics. This time I honestly don't know how or why this fight never happened.

Let's get this straight: Two big, powerful, undefeated heavyweights. Both English speakers as their first language (well, sort of in Bowe's case) one of them American. Bowe coming off a fight of the year performance in clobbering Holyfield's title away from him. Lewis mowing down Razor Ruddock in violent fashion in the previous month. There was spite, too. Lewis beat Bowe to the gold medal. But Bowe thought the stoppage was premature! This fight really did sell itself. No doubt it would've been huge. After his brilliant first encounter with Holyfield the two went face to face. Lewis as a ringside guest in a suit, Riddick with his new belt and the adrenaline flowing. The meeting went...as you'd expect: Lewis stayed extremely calm, took it in his stride. Riddick seemed very pumped up and looked ready for a fight there and then.

After the confrontation Lewis was asked about it, he said "I looked into Riddick Bowe's eyes and I seen absolute fear. He fears me. I think he's gonna side step me." As it happened Lewis was of course correct in his prediction of Bowe sidestepping him, but was he correct about Bowe fearing him? The way things went makes it look like a yes, but there's one more ingredient.

Rock Newman. Bowe's manager was the one who staged Bowe putting his WBC belt in the bin. He said “They didn't strip us, we stripped them!” What makes the world go around more than money? Nothing. What would Lewis v Bowe make? Loadsa money. What's better than loadsa money? Loads more money! Yeah Newman Bowe could make a big amount against Lewis, but he could also lose, and a big exciting heavyweight champion could make money against anyone. Anyone happened to mean reputation enhancing Dokes and Fergussen blowouts before old man Evander upset the apple cart and got revenge. Otherwise maybe the Bowe could've gone on for a long time being milked and knocking over more contenders while Lewis was seen as a paper champ by the US boxing circles.

Fights that never happened leave only questions. Was Bowe scared? Was it all Newman's fault it didn't happen? Was it a mistake? In hindsight we can see how much better Lewis would become, and how much worse Bowe would become. We know the weaknesses in Lewis that hadn't yet been ironed out by Manny Steward. The only man around at the time who knew things nobody else did was in Bowe's corner. I read an extract from an old interview with Eddie Futch where he talks about Lennox, and he basically states several things that Lennox should be trained to do if he wants to be the best. These included: "use his jab and set up his opponents with combonations" " use a good hook off the jab" "utlize his uppercut better" "He is a big man, maybe not big enough, I would like to see him bigger, but no bigger then 245, he would be better off at that weight. He will have more mobility" " I think that Lewis will beat Tyson if they fight, all he would have to do is keep Mike in the center of the ring, I think he knocks him out."
Oh look, each of those things turned out to be 100% true. If anyone could see the route to Lewis' downfall it was Futch and he was on Bowe's side.

So who do you pick? Remember, this is no prime for prime fantasy fight, this is 1993, just afew months after Holyfield v Bowe. Lewis might be coming in under 230lbs. He still crossed his feet at times. He couldn't fight on the inside, certainly nowhere near as well as Bowe. Bowe, still young and motivated, coming in after a career best win and with a chance at olympic revenge. There's always the question of whether he'd come in at his best or not, but I think for this one we'd see the best version of Riddick. Riddick Bowe vs Lennox Lewis, the battle of the olympians....

What is this consant anti Lewis bias? Whats this bs? To be honest I dont really care because I watched Lewis fight and knew how good he was. People can fool themselves or people who dont know anything about boxing but sorry it wont work on me! Saying Bowe who was too scared to fight Lewis would win is probably the silliest thing I have read on here. Lewis knocked Bowe out when he was an amateur and he was even better as a pro. Bowe would not last past three rounds if he ever did manage to have the minerals to take Lewis on. It would be easy for Lewis. Look at how he handled Tyson and people think Bowe would beat him?? Sheesh.

Tyson was ten years past his prime at least. No one is slating Lewis. Everyone thinks he is a top ten of all time but they are comparing him at that time. Peak for peak Lewis would win. At the time it's questionable. Do you not rate holyfield?

YOU ARE CLUELESS, please stop infecting this board with your bile.

spencerclarke wrote:Tyson was ten years past his prime at least. No one is slating Lewis. Everyone thinks he is a top ten of all time but they are comparing him at that time. Peak for peak Lewis would win. At the time it's questionable. Do you not rate holyfield?

Top ten? wow. Thats hardly expert stuff when it comes to Lewis. Only Ali was better. Questionable at the time? preposterous. If Bowe had a chance he would have fought him. Since when does throwing away your title and refusing to face Lewis make it questionable??

Clueless?? Hmmm. I think the only clueless ones are those people that think Bowe would have beaten Lewis!

Yes top ten because he was a great boxer. Not top three because he lack commitment to get stopped twice. How many more of the top ten atg were complacent enough to get stopped twice? McCall told his corner what he was going to do and he did it. The referee was medically trained and I have more respect for him ending the fight than your opinion that he should go on. The ref is an expert

No people have suggested he could win not would. Bowe was infinitely better than Rahman so how come it is impossible?

Gordy wrote:Clueless?? Hmmm. I think the only clueless ones are those people that think Bowe would have beaten Lewis!

Are you in love with Lewis? Is Lewis a member of your family? Why do you talk about him constantly? Anyone talks about the Klitschkos you mention Lewis. Talk about Froch and you bring up Lewis. talk about Mayweather v Pacquio and you bring up Lewis. Lewis retired 10 years ago give it up.

spencerclarke wrote:No people have suggested he could win not would. Bowe was infinitely better than Rahman so how come it is impossible?

Exactly. lewis was ko'd by far inferior people than Bowe so anything is possible.

I'm beginning to think it is Lewis! Either that or his quest is to get everyone hating Lewis. You know if I see one more thread on him I think my head will explode

Gordy - come to my workplace where i've just been told that i'll have to stay till at least 2 and possibly till 6 am. I promise I won't strangle you or gouge out your eyes or beat you to death with a coke can and then drink your blood. We can discuss Lewis

victorgarco wrote:

spencerclarke wrote:No people have suggested he could win not would. Bowe was infinitely better than Rahman so how come it is impossible?

Exactly. lewis was ko'd by far inferior people than Bowe so anything is possible.

Anything is not possible when your opponent is too scared to fight you! I dont count Lewis losing to McCall because of the ref. He was ok to continue and clearly would have won. Against Rahman Lewis was not focused but he showed what he would do to Rahman when fully focused in the rematch so what is the point of mentioning that fight when it has nothing to do with Bowe??

spencerclarke wrote:I'm beginning to think it is Lewis! Either that or his quest is to get everyone hating Lewis. You know if I see one more thread on him I think my head will explode

I dont need to be on any quest to get Lewis hated just look around at some of the comments about him. It beggars belief. The board must be full of Tyson fans or people who know nothing about Lewis.

Nothing of the sort no-one has said anything disparative about Lewis.

Upsets happen in sport. Fair enough if you think Lewis beats bowe at any stage in their respective careers but to give bowe zero chance is naive to say the least and to dismiss every other posters comments as nonsense is highly arrogant.

Most other people have weighed up the situation and give their opinion. I.e. their choice not stating fact.

I guess you would have argued with Aristotle when he suggested the world being round

Lewis only beat Bowe at the Olympics as Bowe wasn't focused so it probably shouldn't even count as a contest and be removed from the record books like Lewis vs Rahman 1 should be. Also Bowe only lost to Holyfield in the 2nd fight because of the Fan man and so this should also be removed from the record like Lewis vs McCall.

spencerclarke wrote:Nothing of the sort no-one has said anything disparative about Lewis.

Upsets happen in sport. Fair enough if you think Lewis beats bowe at any stage in their respective careers but to give bowe zero chance is naive to say the least and to dismiss every other posters comments as nonsense is highly arrogant.

Most other people have weighed up the situation and give their opinion. I.e. their choice not stating fact.

I guess you would have argued with Aristotle when he suggested the world being round

Have you read the comments on this thread? The arguments from people saying Bowe shows they dont understand boxing just like when people say Tyon or Holyfield would beat Lewis when he already beat them. It makes no sense so they clearly didnt watch Lewis and are basing their opinion on bias against Lewis.

Fair, Unbiased, Careless, Kinder, Oval, Feral, Ferrets, Great, Ominous, Region, Denies, Yen.

Thats a lot of effort to beat the swear filter jbw. Reminds me when I picked up mrs milky from a coffee morning recently... Just as she was loudly saying goodbye to her friends, with a warm 'see you next Tuesday'. She Had no idea why she was getting so many sniggers, bless her.

Gordy wrote:

spencerclarke wrote:Nothing of the sort no-one has said anything disparative about Lewis.

Upsets happen in sport. Fair enough if you think Lewis beats bowe at any stage in their respective careers but to give bowe zero chance is naive to say the least and to dismiss every other posters comments as nonsense is highly arrogant.

Most other people have weighed up the situation and give their opinion. I.e. their choice not stating fact.

I guess you would have argued with Aristotle when he suggested the world being round

Have you read the comments on this thread? The arguments from people saying Bowe shows they dont understand boxing just like when people say Tyon or Holyfield would beat Lewis when he already beat them. It makes no sense so they clearly didnt watch Lewis and are basing their opinion on bias against Lewis.

You have got to have no boxing knowledge at all if you think that Lewis beating Tyson in 2002 is evidence Lewis would beat Tyson at any stage of their careers. Tyson in 2002 was such a past it fighter he was nothing like the late 80's tyson

Gordy, last time you tried this "nobody who says this about Lewis knows anything about boxing" I revived your very first thread where you admit to being a casual fan. Inside the space of 12 months you have not become a boxing expert capable of claiming to know more than even 1% of people on this board. You know very little and talk even less sense.

I think you must be a WUM. You have to be, nobody is that stupid and hugs Lewis' nuts THAT much.

https://www.606v2.com/t18186-quick-question

For reference, Gordy.

I think Gordy's WUM mask has well and truly slipped. No one displaying such a clear retardation of thought and logic would be able to present their argument in the way that Gordy has done on this thread. It's clearly designed to provoke angry responses and isn't a representation of the real person's feelings.

Whoever Gordy actually turns out to be is a complete:

Car, Umbrella, Nacho, Toilet, Sugar, Lemon, Ice, Comb, Emu

He must be a wum who is playing a game to see how many threads he can hijack by bringing up Lewis. No sane person would talk about Lewis as much as he does.

At the risk of reopening this particular can of worms can I just mention that Lennox Lewis dumped one of his belts rather than face John Ruiz, if we follow the logic that has been put forward on this thread does this mean Lennox was scared of John Ruiz?

Rowley wrote:At the risk of reopening this particular can of worms can I just mention that Lennox Lewis dumped one of his belts rather than face John Ruiz, if we follow the logic that has been put forward on this thread does this mean Lennox was scared of John Ruiz?

The thought of sharing a ring with someone less charasmatic than himself may have scared him.

bellchees wrote:

Rowley wrote:At the risk of reopening this particular can of worms can I just mention that Lennox Lewis dumped one of his belts rather than face John Ruiz, if we follow the logic that has been put forward on this thread does this mean Lennox was scared of John Ruiz?

The thought of sharing a ring with someone less charasmatic than himself may have scared him.

Ok I'll keep this simple.

Bowe beat a small but great holyfield in 92.

Bowe got beat by a small but great holyfield in 93.

Bowe beat some no marks before getting "beat" by Golota twice in 96.

Lewis Ko'd Golota in Round 1 in 97.

Lewis took threats seriously and ALWAYS won when he did so.

He would have taken Bowe serious and beat him (AGAIN)

Obviously the comparison here is the peak Bowe on both form and fitness, against a still developing Lewis. Bowe was technically more refined with a better jab. Lewis was the better athlete, quicker and the bigger puncher, and no slouch technically himself at that stage.

I think it would be only right to make Bowe favourite following his win over Holy, however I think Lewis did definitely hold a psychological edge over Bowe, and I think that wouldve been important, and the way in which an undefeated Lewis had just destroyed Ruddock would only have added to that. Bowe put in the fight of his life against Holy, but he wouldve come into that fight highly confident having almost every conceivable physical advantage. He fought like a man who had no fear.Would he be able to fight the same way against Lewis? I have my doubts. At the same time that version of Lewis (pre-McCall) was more willing to be the aggressor and let his hands fly.

It's a very hard fight to call, but I favour Lewis. I don't think Bowe would've been able to put in the same type of performance as he did against Holy as Lewis was a different animal to him both physically and psychologically. I suspect Bowe would fight cautiously behind his jab, but would get outlasted physically by Lewis and outgunned by him late on. Lewis late TKO in a tight, unexciting fight for me.

Makem has hit the nail on the head here. Lewis' defeats came against people he was not motivated for, he was complacent and was rightfully beaten.

There is no way he would have taken Bowe lightly. Giving Lewis his dues, he was an intelligent fighter and when things were against him he generally pulled out all the stops and did the business.

Against Ruddock not many had him winning so emphatically. The Golota fight (much later, agreed) was a dangerous fight to take ('roids, fits or not - it's unlikely Lewis knew this at the time), yet both were destroyed. He always boxed to a plan and was probably criticised for this. Fights against Bruno, Tucker, Billups & Brown were not much fun to watch because Lewis probably believed he was so much better than them and wasn't that interested. But Bowe? That would have been a hell of a fight. In 1993 both were at the top of their pile. I am sure Bowe would have fought him; Newman didn't want him to - "not good for business - too much risk too soon" is how I would think the conversation would have gone.

I think Newman's plan was to take the titles from Holyfield, have a couple of easy defences (Ferguson & Dokes) then defeat Holyfield again, THEN take on Lewis. Fan Man & Holyfield's never say die attitude messed it all up.

I still believe though, that mentally, Lewis was in Bowe's head and would beat him 9 times out of 10 as a result.

He didn't take Mccall lightly at all - Mccall mccalled it (sorry) and then did exactly what he meant to do. Thought I agree with your last sentence - I think Lewis had him spooked. Its possible and likely that that bowe beats that lewis but there's a little nagging in the back of my head (apart from my wife's) that says Lewis had him shook and we wouldn't see the same free flowing Bow we saw against Holyfield.

#Also watched Bruno vs Lewis last night - Bruno bossed him for a while - Its not beyond the realm of possibility that Bowe would keep him where he wanted him throughout the fight.

I think there's a tendancy with Lewis to sometimes give him the benefit of the doubt a bit too much. Whenever he suffered a defeat or experienced a bit of an off night where he didn't look totally convincing or dominant, the immediate retort is nearly always that he must have taken the other man lightly, that he wasn't focussed, that his mind must have been wandering. True enough for the Rahman defeat, I think, but outside of that I'm not totally convinced.

As the original post says, as late as 1993 / 1994 Lewis was still making mistakes on a technical level. He had an extremely long amateur career (consisting of two Olympic campaigns, remember) and, with only twenty-odd professional contests under his belt by the time he was in line to fight Bowe, it was perhaps natural that some of those amateur habits were still there. He didn't jab with anywhere near as much authority as he did in later times, got his legs crossed from time to time etc. I don't think the McCall disaster, his limp showing for six rounds against Bruno or his torrid time with Mercer can all just be discarded and ignored on the basis that he had simply overlooked the man in the opposite corner - just a bit too convenient for me. As Shah mentions above, Lewis really struggled against Bruno when Frank was getting off first and looked lost for long whiles. And that was one of the rare instances in which Lewis had shown a bit of contempt and aggression towards his opponent in the build up. The idea that he was uninterested and complacent doesn't add up, for me.

Mind you, as I've aleady said there's no doubt in my mind that he did have some kind of mental grip on Mr DumBowe. Who knows, maybe 'Big Daddy' could have made that work for him - the old D'Amato theory. As myself and one or two others have said, we probably wouldn't be having this debate if it weren't for Fan Man!

I'd agree with much of that Chris, but it goes both ways. Bowe's uninspiring performances are down to motivation and conditioning too. And his one great performance against a much smaller guy, seems to be thevkey differentiator in a fight with Lewis.

Don't get me wrong, Milky - as you say, the same applies to Bowe as well, and I've always been vocal in saying that he gets far too much credit for a 'prime' which last basically two or three fights, impressive though they were.

The only difference, however, would be that Bowe was visibly flabby and out of shape for just about all of his fights from Holyfield II onwards, and it'd be hard to deny that his training had definitely taken a downturn. For his defeat to McCall and struggles with Bruno and McCall, Lewis was looking in good shape, and pretty damn mean, too.

But yes, you're right - if you're going to shoot such an accusation at one you have to apply it to the other.

Is it actually possible that Bowe's prime was even shorter than that of Prime Mike Tyson aka peak Mike Tyson?

DAVE667 wrote:Is it actually possible that Bowe's prime was even shorter than that of Prime Mike Tyson aka peak Mike Tyson?

He is second only to Buster Douglas, a prime that lasted one evening takes some beating.

I can't be too critical, I believe I was at the shop picking up a bottle of milk when my sexual peak came along. It left a note, "I called, you were out. Next door's cat has it instead."

Gutted! (not me, the cat...when I got my hands on it)

TheMackemMawler wrote:Ok I'll keep this simple.

Bowe beat a small but great holyfield in 92.

Bowe got beat by a small but great holyfield in 93.

Bowe beat some no marks before getting "beat" by Golota twice in 96.

Lewis Ko'd Golota in Round 1 in 97.

Lewis took threats seriously and ALWAYS won when he did so.

He would have taken Bowe serious and beat him (AGAIN)

First of all we are talking prime Bowe from Holyfield 1, not the shot one who turned up against Golota after years of 40 pound weight fluctuations in between fights for years. Lennox did take the best guys seriously for sure, but you have to remember prime Bowe is much better than anyone he ever faced.

88Chris05 wrote:Don't get me wrong, Milky - as you say, the same applies to Bowe as well, and I've always been vocal in saying that he gets far too much credit for a 'prime' which last basically two or three fights, impressive though they were.

The only difference, however, would be that Bowe was visibly flabby and out of shape for just about all of his fights from Holyfield II onwards, and it'd be hard to deny that his training had definitely taken a downturn. For his defeat to McCall and struggles with Bruno and McCall, Lewis was looking in good shape, and pretty damn mean, too.

But yes, you're right - if you're going to shoot such an accusation at one you have to apply it to the other.

the criticisms of lewis are fair but bowe was lucky to get a tight decision against tubbs (great name for a fat heavy) just before holy 1... and he was in pretty good shape for golota 2 on a revenge mission... they just seem to get over-looked to me... hence why i keep repeating it!

Rowley wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Is it actually possible that Bowe's prime was even shorter than that of Prime Mike Tyson aka peak Mike Tyson?

He is second only to Buster Douglas, a prime that lasted one evening takes some beating.

Maybe clutching at straw's here but Bowe did take out Dokes and Ferguson out in the next two fights by far the earliest of their careers. Dokes was a bit of a farce but Ferguson had just beaten Mercer and was lucky to survive 2 rounds against Bowe, Bowe gave him a much worse beating than even Tyson. I just think he thought he'd walk it after the first Holyfield fight, turned up out of shape and never really got going. Still thought he won the fight but that's another matter.

milkyboy wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:Don't get me wrong, Milky - as you say, the same applies to Bowe as well, and I've always been vocal in saying that he gets far too much credit for a 'prime' which last basically two or three fights, impressive though they were.

The only difference, however, would be that Bowe was visibly flabby and out of shape for just about all of his fights from Holyfield II onwards, and it'd be hard to deny that his training had definitely taken a downturn. For his defeat to McCall and struggles with Bruno and McCall, Lewis was looking in good shape, and pretty damn mean, too.

But yes, you're right - if you're going to shoot such an accusation at one you have to apply it to the other.

the criticisms of lewis are fair but bowe was lucky to get a tight decision against tubbs (great name for a fat heavy) just before holy 1... and he was in pretty good shape for golota 2 on a revenge mission... they just seem to get over-looked to me... hence why i keep repeating it!

Disagree with being in shape for Golota 2, he lost a lot of weight but looked completely undercooked and frankly going not only by his physical appearance but his slurred speech, he was completely shot. By 29, very sad!

fair points monty, but subjective opinion... he was at least back to his best fighting weight and by some accounts he was motivated and up for it. As you say... if he was shot to pieces at 29 its pretty sad, but not the first and certainly not the last to be in that club!

Bowe was simply scared as was Newman. None of the dumping the belt in bin thing in order to try to make more money down the line makes any sense. If they fought when they should have done, and it ended up as a cracker, then billions could have been made from Lewis v Bowe II. If it was 1-1 then Lewis v Bowe III for billions more.

Newman was scared Lewis would mow down his cash cow and targetted Holyfield II as a less risky fight.

You are aware that the Lewis Bowe fight was scheduled after Bowe Holyfield II? it was a big upset as Bowe was the number 1 heavyweight at the time, then Lewis got KO'd by McCall which made it the fight worth much less and didn't materialize.

If you watched Bowe the guy was scared of no one, he had a meaness about him, a toughness that might be down to his tough up bringing in Brooklyn. Lewis was not a particularily intimidating heavyweight, especially in his younger days, nothing like a Tyson or even a prime Bowe who really wanted to kill you. Lewis was more patient and frankly a "stoppage" in the amateurs is completely different from the Pro's, Bowe was as lanky as they come in the AM's and had a bad chin, he really filled out though and became a helluva lot stronger, it would have been a completely fight in the Pro's and Bowe was certainly not "scared" of anyone

History would suggest strongly otherwise as far as i'm concerned.

Bowe was a very good fighter, but even at his best not many people had trouble landing punches on him and simply if Lewis is landing on you with any regularity you were going to sleep. Lewis would pick him apart from the outside and KO him around the mid rounds.

monty junior wrote:You are aware that the Lewis Bowe fight was scheduled after Bowe Holyfield II? it was a big upset as Bowe was the number 1 heavyweight at the time, then Lewis got KO'd by McCall which made it the fight worth much less and didn't materialize.

I think that shows who they thought the easier option was. Either fight would make big money, so take the easier challenge first as then the cash will flow for longer. Also, schedules don't always hold up. They could conceivably have continued with easier defenses, making plenty of money against "opponents" before being forced to risk it all vs Lewis.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:History would suggest strongly otherwise as far as i'm concerned.

Ignorance suggests otherwise.



i

Not really no, Bowe ran a million miles away from a fight with Lewis, ergo he was scared of him.

Maybe Newman was but Bowe certainly wasn't.

Trouble is, whether Bowe was as fearless as you suggest, it was he who threw the belt in the bin. It was a terrible PR mistake that will haunt Bowe forever.

Even if it was just Newman caking in his pants it's not him who'll be remembered for the belt binning. I consider that they were both clearly scared of being derailed by Lennox Lewis so much so they felt losing one strap was collateral damage and much less risky to lose a strap and fight on for easy money where they fully expected to bully around Holyfield in a lucrative rematch.

I clearly remember that time. Tthe Americans wanted desperately to forget that Lewis existed. Even the fearless Tyson dumbed his WBC belt to take on Seldon for the WBA belt instead to get out of fighting Lewis but that incident won't be remembered half as much because there was no silly spectacle involved.