England's best XI for NZ and Ashes tests

Looking ahead to the test series against the All Blacks after the new year and also perhaps to the first test V Australia in the summer, what is England's best XI?

Using SA's current blueprint for their test match success, I would have this XI myself if I was one of the England selectors :-

1 Cook
2 Compton
3 Trott
4 Pietersen
5 Bell
6 Root
7 Bairstow (keeper)
8 Swann
9 Anderson
10 Finn
11 Panesar

Perhaps the only worry is that the bowling attack lacks a third frontline seamer, but someone like Trott can act as the 3rd seamer if needed. Also I am a firm believer that putting a huge total of 500+ on the board makes it very hard for the opposition's batsmen to reply in kind as they would have spent almost 2+ days of hard chasing out in the field and hence would be mentally if not physically tired.

No Prior

The rest of the team is exactly as I'd have it, by the way

Bairstow for Prior is a good shout.

I may have Broad/Onions for Monty, in NZ.

Some things are better left unsaid...

Stella wrote:Bairstow for Prior is a good shout.

I may have Broad/Onions for Monty, in NZ.

Oh yes. I didn't notice he'd picked Monty.

Yep. I'd give Broad another chance if fit, with Onions waiting in the wings.

Shelsey93 wrote:No Prior

The rest of the team is exactly as I'd have it, by the way

Bairstow can keep wicket at a competent enough level. And also the most significant point is that Bairstow is a better batsman than Prior is.

Shelsey93 wrote:

Stella wrote:Bairstow for Prior is a good shout.

I may have Broad/Onions for Monty, in NZ.

Oh yes. I didn't notice he'd picked Monty.

Yep. I'd give Broad another chance if fit, with Onions waiting in the wings.

I think opposition teams around the world have worked out how to play against Broad now so we need another pace bowler who adds something that Broad cannot. But who can we bring in. James Harris perhaps as another Jimmy Anderson Mark II?

No Prior

VTR wrote:No Prior

Well I did say that I was using SA's current blueprint for picking 7 frontline batsmen in the same starting XI!

Prior is arguably a better bat than Bairstow though.

Stella wrote:Prior is arguably a better bat than Bairstow though.

No he isn't. If he was then he would have batted at number 5 or 6 V SA in the last test match during this summer.

gboycottnut wrote:

Stella wrote:Prior is arguably a better bat than Bairstow though.

No he isn't. If he was then he would have batted at number 5 or 6 V SA in the last test match during this summer.

Ok, he's not.

gboycottnut wrote:

VTR wrote:No Prior

Well I did say that I was using SA's current blueprint for picking 7 frontline batsmen in the same starting XI!

That wasn't very clear. Ok I get it now, most amusing. Surely we need to try out a legspinner as well to truly follow the SA blueprint. What about Rashid or see what Salisbury is up to these days?

Dear Lord this is an awful thread...

Prior is a far, far better batsman than Bairstow. On what basis are you suggesting otherwise?

Fists of Fury wrote:Dear Lord this is an awful thread...

Prior is a far, far better batsman than Bairstow. On what basis are you suggesting otherwise?

On the basis that Bairstow is good enough to bat at 4 V a high quality pace attack which the likes of SA have.

Apart from the obvious (Bairstow at the moment is a very long way off being good enough to keep in Test cricket unfortunately, and why you'd drop the current best keeper-batsman in world cricket is beyond me) I very much doubt England will go in with only two seamers in NZ or England, as the ball swings a lot longer there, so you need three seamers to keep the pressure on. Otherwise you have Panesar coming on after 7 or 8 overs which I don't think is ideal in those conditions. If Broad can get back to full fitness (something which I suspect has been lacking for a while now) I'd pick him. If not, go with Onions who'll do well in those conditions.

Cook (capt)
Compton
Trott
KP
Bell
Root
Prior (wk)
Broad/Onions
Swann
Finn
Anderson

Harsh on Panesar, but Swann remains the better bowler. However, if England are looking to manage Swann's workload due to his elbow issue it might not be a bad idea to play Panesar in the odd Test here and there (thinking at home vs NZ for instance).

England need to get 1 or 2 more pace bowlers who have that bit of extra pace for dealing with the likes of Australia's batsmen. Therefore, what about playing the likes of Stuart Meaker and even James Harris for the NZ test series?

gboycottnut

Prior could bat in the top 4/5 if he wasn't 'keeping and if the England management wanted him to fulfill that role.
The fact that Bairstow batted there doesn't prove he's a better batsman than Prior in any way, shape or form. It simply proves that Bairstow was picked as a batsman pure and simple, while Prior, who is just as good a batsman, was picked to keep wicket as well.

Prior is easily one of the top 20 Test batsman in the world. Would walk into any Test team now and probably any bar the Aussie team with Gilchrist over the last 20 years.

Yes, he is that good.

Yes, lobbing Prior in ahead of Bairstow wouldn't have sent out a good message to young Johnny.

As for the ashes. That is a long way off. Compton or even Root may have a quiet summer and be out of contention.

For NZ we have to go back to 3 seamers and one spinner, which for the balance of the team has to be Swann. Also, I think Swann is a better bowler than Panesar when there isn't much in the wicket for the spinner.

For NZ conditions, the best seamer line-up will probably be Anderson, Finn and Onions - the only problem there is that none of them recognise one end of a bat from the other.

Why anyone would even consider dropping Prior for Bairstow is beyond me. You could make a case for resting Prior, although since he doesn't play many ODIs that's probably less necessary than for some others (Cook in particular plays a lot of matches for England), but to suggest dropping him for someone who has played 3 tests as a specialist batsman and who only intermittently keeps for his County is fairly crazy. If Prior was to be rested, I'd be looking at either Kieswetter or Davies to keep for the series.

I suspect in the longer term Root will end up opening (certainly his test debut has proven his temperament) and perhaps Bairstow will bat at 6. Compton's done OK, but not really better than that, and I suspect will end up just being a stop gap opener.

because Prior doesn't play any limited overs there's no real need to rest him. As mentioned Prior is probably a good enough batsman to bat 5/6 but it's a very different role to batting 7, and I think Prior fits the modern 7 role perfectly (I agree with VTR, second only to Gilchrist over the last 15 years or so).

"For NZ conditions, the best seamer line-up will probably be Anderson, Finn and Onions - the only problem there is that none of them recognise one end of a bat from the other."

As Australia now have a genuine all-rounder who can bat in the top 6 as well as bowl enough overs whilst getting wickets in Shane Watson, how about England trying out an All-rounder for the NZ test series. I would like Chris Woakes or a Rikki Clarke to have a chance of playing in a test series V NZ to see how they get on or not.

Our best team at the moment for me is:

Cook, Compton, Trott, KP, Bell, Root, Prior, Swann, Broad, Finn and Anderson.

When we play 2 spinners, Panesar in for Broad.

Duty281 wrote:Our best team at the moment for me is:

Cook, Compton, Trott, KP, Bell, Root, Prior, Swann, Broad, Finn and Anderson.

When we play 2 spinners, Panesar in for Broad.

yup

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Our best team at the moment for me is:

Cook, Compton, Trott, KP, Bell, Root, Prior, Swann, Broad, Finn and Anderson.

When we play 2 spinners, Panesar in for Broad.

yup

Problem is that both Broad and Finn are similar types of bowlers. What England really need is another bowler who has that extra pace of 90+ mph to trouble the likes of Warner, Hughes, Watson, Clarke and Hussey in the Ashes test series.

Is Tredwell still injured? I'd prefer him to Broad if he was available.

I'd also prefer Bairstow to Bell, if Bell's chosen for the first test and fails.

teassoc wrote:Is Tredwell still injured? I'd prefer him to Broad if he was available.

I'd also prefer Bairstow to Bell, if Bell's chosen for the first test and fails.

did you mean Tremlett? I think he is still injured, seems to be an all too frequent occurrence unfortunately.

GB

Not sure that Finn and Broad are that similar any more - was true a couple of years ago, but then Broad discovered a successful technique in pitching the ball up and bowling in a good rhythm at about 85-88mph, while Finn has worked a bit on his pace and regularly bowls up to about 90mph.

I don't think there's anyone in the Counties who can bowl reliably at 92-95mph, which is what you'd really need to simply out-pace the Aussies. Not that this absence was such an issue in the last Ashes series down under - we managed to take the wickets of all the guys you list with fair regularity.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

teassoc wrote:Is Tredwell still injured? I'd prefer him to Broad if he was available.

I'd also prefer Bairstow to Bell, if Bell's chosen for the first test and fails.

did you mean Tremlett? I think he is still injured, seems to be an all too frequent occurrence unfortunately.

Sorry, yes I meant Tremlett.

Everyone thinking Root has overtaken Bairstow. Probably right but harsh on Bairstow maybe?

Meaker can bowl that kind of pace dummy, but isn't up to test cricket just yet.

Clearly england's best XI outside the subcontinent at the moment is
Compton/Root (Compton deserves the next start)
Cook
Trott
Pietersen
Bell
Root/Bairstow (I actually think Bairstow would do better up the order eventually)
Prior (agree that with form over the last few years he's the best since Gilchrist)
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Finn

Onions for Broad if the latter's poor form continues. Taylor and Morgan as reserve batsmen. Panesar as reserve spinner.

Simples.

Concerned a bit that we will need 5 frontline bowlers against what will be a very strong Australian batting lineup. Therefore we need a genuine all-rounder who can match up to Shane Watson. Now who can fill this role for us? Rikki Clarke perhaps?

Sadly, barring some sort of freak amount of injuries, I think Tremlett's England career is over. There are doubts over his Surrey future due to the fact he has no contract, be it incremental or central, with England, he's 31, plagued by injuries (yet to fully comeback from his latest) and England have plenty of stocks in the bowling department.

If you consider Anderson, Broad and Finn as the first choice seamers and Onions, Bresnan and Meaker as the reserves it doesn't look good for Tremlett.

Bairstow better than Prior? With bat and gloves?? Think someone has been on the mulled wine already this morning!!! As Big Bob would say "what utter nonsense"

Cook
Compton
Trott
Pietersen
Bell
Root
Prior
Swann
Broad
Finn
Anderson

Bring in Panesar for Broad if the pitch needs a second spinner.

It is a shame as I would like to see Panesar given a long run in the side. Broad however could find his form again on seamer friendly pitches.

I hope they tinker much with the side during the NZ tour. Root and Compton need time to settle in and have a decent run in the side.

Bring on 2013 I say!

liverbnz wrote:Sadly, barring some sort of freak amount of injuries, I think Tremlett's England career is over. .

I'd go along with this. Roughed up the Aussies then had a string of injuries. Simon Jones mk 2

liverbnz wrote:Sadly, barring some sort of freak amount of injuries, I think Tremlett's England career is over. There are doubts over his Surrey future due to the fact he has no contract, be it incremental or central, with England, he's 31, plagued by injuries (yet to fully comeback from his latest) and England have plenty of stocks in the bowling department.

If you consider Anderson, Broad and Finn as the first choice seamers and Onions, Bresnan and Meaker as the reserves it doesn't look good for Tremlett.

But Tremlett can offer England something which neither Onions, Bresnan nor Meaker can give England and that is the ability to generate awkward pace and steepling bounce which is more likely to get Australian batsmen out than the steady stuff of Bresnan or the wicket to wicket stuff of Onions or the wayward inconsistent deliveries of Meaker.

VTR wrote:

liverbnz wrote:Sadly, barring some sort of freak amount of injuries, I think Tremlett's England career is over. .

I'd go along with this. Roughed up the Aussies then had a string of injuries. Simon Jones mk 2

What about bringing back Simon Jones? He has managed to get himself back to some level of fitness to play in county cricket in the past year or so.

liverbnz wrote:Sadly, barring some sort of freak amount of injuries, I think Tremlett's England career is over. There are doubts over his Surrey future due to the fact he has no contract, be it incremental or central, with England, he's 31, plagued by injuries (yet to fully comeback from his latest) and England have plenty of stocks in the bowling department.

If you consider Anderson, Broad and Finn as the first choice seamers and Onions, Bresnan and Meaker as the reserves it doesn't look good for Tremlett.

Tremlett's been given (and accepted) a one year deal by Surrey for next season. The last I heard (October time) was that his rehab was progressing well. However, I think that Surrey will be concentrating on easing him back gently in 2013 with him at best playing something like two out of every three. I suspect concerns over his continued fitness are so great that they'll prevent him from ever returning to five-day cricket. Happy to be proved wrong but that's how I see and hear it.

The one Surrey bowler I expect to be in the Test mix before long is Meaker.

At the current stage of his career I can't see Tremlett playing again. Bresnan's Test career is probably also on hold unless he finds some top form for Yorkshire.

So, our fast bowling stocks currently look like this:

1. Anderson
2. Finn
3. Broad. Some will dispute this, but I think he needs backing initially. He's only had two poor series since the best form of his career.
4. Onions
5. Meaker/ Woakes/ anyone else who stakes a claim

Perhaps not looking as strong as 6 months ago, with a few drifting away from the team, and a couple on the periphery dropping back too. May be a chance for someone who starts the season well.

Mike Selig wrote:...
Clearly england's best XI outside the subcontinent at the moment is
Compton/Root (Compton deserves the next start)
Cook
Trott
Pietersen
Bell
Root/Bairstow (I actually think Bairstow would do better up the order eventually)
Prior (agree that with form over the last few years he's the best since Gilchrist)
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Finn

Onions for Broad if the latter's poor form continues. Taylor and Morgan as reserve batsmen. Panesar as reserve spinner.

Simples.

Agree entirely in the short term - I'm just not convinced that Compton is going to kick on and prove to be a really good Test opener (and he doesn't play there for his County), while Root showed good temperament and technique when asked to play an unfamiliar role (kudos to the selectors for bringing him into the Test side on the back of an excellent performance for the Development squad, rather than waiting for him to be out of form in a few months...). Given Root has played most of his cricket for Yorkshire as an opener, I just see him ending up there (probably by the summer).

My only concern is that we could be in a position of several of the team 'getting old together'. Trott, KP, Bell, Swann and Anderson are all 30+, and while none are on the verge of retirement, it would be good to get a couple more youngsters in to the squad (particularly the middle order batting).

What about opening with Root and having Compton at six?

I would take James Taylor and Bairstow to NZ as our back up batsmen.

Bresnan looks finished. Woakes looking his natural replacement.

I think Root at 6 could prove an inspired selection (a bit of a Hussey if you like) actually. Plays spin well, organised, compact and good at nurdling, but also technically very well equipped to deal with the 2nd new ball.

Whilst the jury is still out on Compton for now, he has earned a chance to make a bigger impression.

Dropping Prior for Bairstow on account of ability, form or potential is patently ridiculous.

However, with some respect to our New Zealand hosts, there might be merit in a bit of gentle experimentation prior to the summer's Ashes Tests.

I would certainly like to see Onions given a Test against New Zealand and see no great harm if that means, say, Anderson sitting one out. We need to be as prepared as possible for Australia - surely it's better that a leading reserve like Onions has played Test cricket in 2013 when the Ashes come round.

What would we do if Prior was unfit for an Ashes Test? Not sure we have too many obvious options. Davies had a poor 2012 being badly affected by the death of Tom Maynard and currently seems a long way off Test reckoning. Guess it would be a call up for Kieswetter. However, I again don't see great harm if Bairstow were to take the gloves for just one Test in New Zealand to see how he does. Even if he mucks up, we should have enough batting and bowling strength to overcome his keeping deficiencies. We could be pleasantly surprised (although I doubt it). I always had a worry during this India series that Prior might go down with Delhi belly on the morning before the start of a Test; in such a situation, I assume Bairstow would have made his debut as a Test keeper which would have been far from ideal.

Please understand I'm not advocating wholescale changes. Merely flagging that using the New Zealand series to give one or two squad players a Test and look at the odd alternate option might ultimately be helpful. We still need to take New Zealand seriously and I don't see any real conflict in that.

'Finished' is probably too strong - Bres is only 27.

But I imagine his Test career will be put on long-term hold. Years of topping the Championship bowling averages may await.

I really like Compton. He understands his game and I fully expect him to hit a century in New Zealand. Root looked a natural in that 6 position, so I wouldn't be too hasty in shifting him.

I expect some rests v NZ. Perhaps Swann won't go, although the elbow doesn't seem to have troubled him that much in India. I suspect if we go 2-0 up, Anderson might rest too.

The Tests in the summer are hardly a series, but they are our only games before the Ashes. Probably best to play our best XI then.

What about trying out James Harris for the New Zealand tests whilst at the same time giving Jimmy Anderson a rest. I am sure that a bowling lineup of Harris, also perhaps Meaker and Onions with Panesar as the spinner will be good enough to get the Kiwis out in each innings of all 3 of the test matches there as the Kiwis aren't anywhere near the team that they had in the mid to late 1980's.

I think Harris is a good season away from being seriously considered for Tests, although including him for the T20s suggests he's impressed the performance squad coaches. Having said that none of the others in the EPP are really T20 bowlers - C. Wright, Roland-Jones, Coles.

I think England should be wary of too much rotation/tinkering. We saw against the West Indies what it can lead to... a natural loss of intensity and focus when you treat a test as a practice match.

By all means try out one or two players, but avoid changing the whole nature of the team.

This notion that England's reserve seamers are as good as most teams first XI seamers is a dangerous assumption - they may be potentially, but I wouldn't want to go beyond that...

Bairstow isn't good enough to keep in tests yet. If Prior gets injured then it'll have to be Kieswetter or Davies.

Mike Selig wrote:I think England should be wary of too much rotation/tinkering. We saw against the West Indies what it can lead to... a natural loss of intensity and focus when you treat a test as a practice match.

By all means try out one or two players, but avoid changing the whole nature of the team.

This notion that England's reserve seamers are as good as most teams first XI seamers is a dangerous assumption - they may be potentially, but I wouldn't want to go beyond that...

Bairstow isn't good enough to keep in tests yet. If Prior gets injured then it'll have to be Kieswetter or Davies.

To be honest, I think between having two inexperienced batsmen (since two of Compton, Root and Bairstow are likely to play) and a couple (Trott and Bell) who've been in scratchy form for a while, we probably shouldn't do too much experimenting with the batting line-up for the two NZ series.

As for the reserve seamers, I think we've fallen back a bit over the last year - a year ago we had Anderson, Broad and Bresnan with Finn and Onions as proven back-up and Tremlett injured. Now Bresnan has faded, Broad is currently unfit and struggling for form and Finn is continuing to be a bit fragile (very good when fit, but he's getting like Bryan Robson - one week in the side then a month off), while Tremlett is being written off. Dernbach has shown repeatedly at ODI level that he isn't good enough to step up, while Meaker is unproven and Woakes hasn't really come on as hoped over the last couple of years. So we're down to Anderson as proven top quality and picking two out of three of Finn, Broad and Onions based on fitness and form.

dummy_half wrote:

Mike Selig wrote:I think England should be wary of too much rotation/tinkering. We saw against the West Indies what it can lead to... a natural loss of intensity and focus when you treat a test as a practice match.

By all means try out one or two players, but avoid changing the whole nature of the team.

This notion that England's reserve seamers are as good as most teams first XI seamers is a dangerous assumption - they may be potentially, but I wouldn't want to go beyond that...

Bairstow isn't good enough to keep in tests yet. If Prior gets injured then it'll have to be Kieswetter or Davies.

To be honest, I think between having two inexperienced batsmen (since two of Compton, Root and Bairstow are likely to play) and a couple (Trott and Bell) who've been in scratchy form for a while, we probably shouldn't do too much experimenting with the batting line-up for the two NZ series.

As for the reserve seamers, I think we've fallen back a bit over the last year - a year ago we had Anderson, Broad and Bresnan with Finn and Onions as proven back-up and Tremlett injured. Now Bresnan has faded, Broad is currently unfit and struggling for form and Finn is continuing to be a bit fragile (very good when fit, but he's getting like Bryan Robson - one week in the side then a month off), while Tremlett is being written off. Dernbach has shown repeatedly at ODI level that he isn't good enough to step up, while Meaker is unproven and Woakes hasn't really come on as hoped over the last couple of years. So we're down to Anderson as proven top quality and picking two out of three of Finn, Broad and Onions based on fitness and form.

Agree there. The Aussies will be looking at our current bowling attack and will be looking to keep out Anderson, whilst looking to attack our weakest part of our bowling which is whoever is our 2nd and our 3rd choicer seam/swing bowler.

Can't see Anderson being happy with a rest vs New Zealand. He's got Botham's record in his sights, I'm sure he wants to get that and there will surely be some cheap wickets on offer.

Without looking up the stats I'd imagine he must average something like 15 vs. NZ?