Shaun Edwards - Quits failing Irish Exciles

From http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16016_8355114,00.html

You can't deny it's been a particularly rough couple of months for Shaun Edwards. Overlooked for the Lions in favour of Andy Farrell, his Wales side tumbling to a dreadful November and now London Irish also falling to earth in the Premiership. Not even Sale have a worse defence.

Not all of that is Edwards' fault by any stretch of the imagination. But it's also tough to look at that all and say that Edwards is not approaching a seminal point in his career.

One of the most focussed and knowledgeable students of the game around, Edwards is a character whose intensity can be intimidating.

On the Lions tour of 2009, at a fun quiz night involving both coaching staff and journalists, Edwards spent much of his time giving one-word answers to most, palpably itching to get back to his room and continue his analysis of the opposition. Later in the evening he was seen examining bits of paper with the Gauteng side's line-out moves on them while all around were piling into the claret.

If you've seen the video of the 2009 Lions tour, you'll remember that his were the most impassioned reactions whenever fortune befell or favoured the tourists. The moment when the TMO confirmed Jaque Fourie's try in the second Test was pure theatre.

But he's also been fighting on many fronts for a while. Wales and Wasps, now Wales and London Irish... there are few other coaches who carry as heavy a workload as he. Yet after several years of success, it's suddenly not working on any of the fronts.

Defences and attacks go through cycles, defences tighten up, then attacks work them out, then defences tighten up again... it's the way the game works.

This time Edwards seems to have run out of answers. The London Irish defence is the worst in the Premiership and while Wales' is hardly catastrophic, nor is it the fine filter that leaked only three tries in the 2012 Six Nations.

The end of this season might be the time for Edwards to take some time off, freshen up and then revisit what he does. The mark of the very greatest players and coaches - think Brian O'Driscoll and Graham Henry - is the ability to re-invent oneself when circumstances demand it. This appears to be Edwards' next challenge.

maestegmafia wrote:From http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16016_8355114,00.html

This time Edwards seems to have run out of answers. The London Irish defence is the worst in the Premiership and while Wales' is hardly catastrophic, nor is it the fine filter that leaked only three tries in the 2012 Six Nations.

You might be right. It's a constant battle to keep ahead of the opposition. To be fair argentina, Samoa and new zealand are all useful attacking sides on their day. I'm not sure this years 6 nations was an advert for vintage attacking play. I think next year will give us a better idea.

I feel refereeing is also a massive contributer to the anxieties of the game. Every referee has his own interpretation creating a variable that is tough to adjust to.

I'm with you there. I read an article by a sports scientist employed by the saru. They tried analysing the international referees and couldn't find any consistency.

Post a link to that...! Sounds interesting.

Think these are the guys. Haven't got time to find the link to the exact article.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/10/rugby-world-cup-ref-debate.html?m=1

blackcanelion wrote:Think these are the guys. Haven't got time to find the link to the exact article.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/10/rugby-world-cup-ref-debate.html?m=1

Cheers BC

As a staunch, pragmatic student of the game I hope Edwards can provide a great welsh defence for 2013. He did a reasonable job in the Autumn, I would be surprised if his job was on the line. But his Form with the excites has been appalling.

Haven't followed Irish this season. I'm just wondering. How much of a factor are injuries and transfers/retirrements this season. I'm guessing he must have spent a fair bit of time with Wales as well.

There was a time when I wanted Edwards in the England set-up. It seems a long time ago now. Either he wasn't quite the defensive mastermind he appeared or Wales have ruined him.

He seems to be trying to take on too much. Like Gatland putting Wales in big trouble recently by accepting the Lions post.

blackcanelion wrote:Haven't followed Irish this season. I'm just wondering. How much of a factor are injuries and transfers/retirrements this season. I'm guessing he must have spent a fair bit of time with Wales as well.

He spends far more with Wales than Irish from what I understood was his original agenda, things may have changed. The guy has proven time and again what an excellent coach he is, but as the article I quoted says everyone gets figured out and has to move on.

Wales have been massively disrupted by injuries. Looking forward to seeing us in the Six nations with the form that players returning from injury will make. Players like Adam Jones who looked absolutely world class yesterday were missing in the autumn.

maestegmafia wrote:

blackcanelion wrote:Haven't followed Irish this season. I'm just wondering. How much of a factor are injuries and transfers/retirrements this season. I'm guessing he must have spent a fair bit of time with Wales as well.

He spends far more with Wales than Irish from what I understood was his original agenda, things may have changed. The guy has proven time and again what an excellent coach he is, but as the article I quoted says everyone gets figured out and has to move on.

Wales have been massively disrupted by injuries. Looking forward to seeing us in the Six nations with the form that players returning from injury will make. Players like Adam Jones who looked absolutely world class yesterday were missing in the autumn.

Good news for next year. I think I'd keep autumn defence in perspective. Nz have averaged over 3 tries a game this year. No one has managed to keep Samoa try less in the last 3 years. Argentina targeted the Wales game and showed during the RC they have a back line that can score against anyone (they scored 2 tries in a match against both nz and australia). A one try concession against aus isn't a bad return. Overall, the welsh team conceded about the same number of tries in 2012 as the best defences. We conceded half of our tries in the autumn tour.

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:There was a time when I wanted Edwards in the England set-up. It seems a long time ago now. Either he wasn't quite the defensive mastermind he appeared or Wales have ruined him.

He seems to be trying to take on too much. Like Gatland putting Wales in big trouble recently by accepting the Lions post.

In fairness you can only work with what you've got and given the injuries to players such as Lydiate,Roberts,JDv2,Warburton,etc who are top defenders he hasn't had much luck in recent times. Also Adam Jones and Gethin Jenkins performances in the loose have added a lot to the Welsh defence in recent years but they've both been injured/out of form a lot recently.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Wales' defence to improve when injured players return and also wouldn't be surprised to see him as a coach for a top prem side then England in the future.

blackcanelion wrote:I'm with you there. I read an article by a sports scientist employed by the saru. They tried analysing the international referees and couldn't find any consistency.

Agree it's the biggest issue in the game today. They're just not on the same page at all.

blackcanelion wrote:Think these are the guys. Haven't got time to find the link to the exact article.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/10/rugby-world-cup-ref-debate.html?m=1

very good and balanced piece. says all what one need to know about refs and their decison making. cheers BC.

I think Edwards omission for the Lions 2013 is more about balance of coaches (by country) rather than ability.
Though on pure ability one may argue 'Why has Gatland picked Howley?' but that is another matter!

Edwards is big enough see the decision making process by Gatland but for me the intriguing decision is why is Robin McBride leading Wales in Japan instead of Edwards? It may be more so called succession planning but increasingly Edwards must feel marginalised.
I think when Wales get their players back for the 6Ns the defence will return to its high standard. What needs to improve is their attack which has lacked penetration for a while now - that I'm afraid has largely got to be down to the current Lions attack coach.

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:There was a time when I wanted Edwards in the England set-up. It seems a long time ago now. Either he wasn't quite the defensive mastermind he appeared or Wales have ruined him.

He seems to be trying to take on too much. Like Gatland putting Wales in big trouble recently by accepting the Lions post.

Me too, i wanted Edwards to join England but like you say Cyril it seems like a long tome a go.

But since his first year with Wales after they won that Grand Slam, Wales for me have'n't looked that good to be honest. I mean they are not realy blowing teams away on the score board are they?

I do think that coaches liked Edwards should make their mind up which team they they are coaching. Wales or London Irish. Devided loyalty can sometimes be to much for one man to take on.

On the other hand lets see what the 6ns will be like with Wales having their first choice players back or at least most of them.

It has been said you can only do so much with the players that you have.

Maybe it's plan B. He get's an inside look at England's set up going forward towards the world cup. He then gets to use the info on coaches and players against them in 2015................... Just thinking outside the square.

I'm sure it's about fresh insight.

Edwards choses to work with a london club so that he can remain closer to his family in London. I don't think anyone in Wales, especially at the WRU would begrudge him that.

Not sure that reason stands up to scrutiny maes as he is only at London Irish 1 day a week and I would guess that he spends time travelling to games as part of his Wales commitments.

Edwards for me has failed to move with the pace of the game, which has changed since the period where he has had most success. Initially his defensive structures were excellent, but now teams have worked out ways to breach them and he needs to adapt and improve to build those walls up again.

He is slightly hindered with both Wales and Irish however, in as much as Wales are missing some key defensive players, and Irish quite frankly have a few players who to put it simply, can't defend.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Not sure that reason stands up to scrutiny maes as he is only at London Irish 1 day a week and I would guess that he spends time travelling to games as part of his Wales commitments.

Edwards for me has failed to move with the pace of the game, which has changed since the period where he has had most success. Initially his defensive structures were excellent, but now teams have worked out ways to breach them and he needs to adapt and improve to build those walls up again.

He is slightly hindered with both Wales and Irish however, in as much as Wales are missing some key defensive players, and Irish quite frankly have a few players who to put it simply, can't defend.

Scrutiny? It was his opinion on his reason for taking the job Ozzy so I guess that is value enough...!!!

Edwards won the Grand Slam and coached to the semi final of the RWC with Wales just under a year ago, hardly someone who's methods are flawed or out of date.

Ah of course maes, he's great, hence the fact Wales and Irish are doing so well, in particular defensively.

He may have given spending more time with his family in London as a reason for taking the job, but that still doesn't mean it stands up to scrutiny. He is there 1 day a week. I have no idea what he does the on the other 6, but it's not coaching the LI defence, so I am not convinced about his reason for taking the LI job.

Edwards arrived on the scene running the 'blitz defence' and it was great, no question. But as with all things, people find a way around, through or over them, and good teams know how to play against a straightforward blitz defence. To succeed over long periods, you have to adapt it, look at plugging the gaps that people have found, and force attacks to think again how they will breach it. That is the responsibility of the defence coach/guru and one that Edwards will have to accept the challenge of completing.

At present I don't think he has. Of course, as I have said, that is easier the better players you have available, and Wales are missing some key defensive and Irish are just cr@p in that regard, which makes his job more difficult. Ultimately however, if he is to regarded as a great 'coach' then part of his job is improving the players that he has at his disposal and getting them playing to a system that is effective to them. I am not sure that he has done that over the past 9 months or so.

I think you just argued your own point finding your own conclusions.

Well done.

I'm not quite sure what you mean maes, but if you are suggesting that he spends the other 6 days that he's not coaching Irish sat at home with his family I find that unlikely.

If indeed that is the case, then why does he need to spend his one working day nearby, he could easily work for any club in the country then drive home at the end of that one day and still have the other 6 with his family, hence my assertion that the reason given doesn't sound particularly likely.

Ozzy3213 wrote:I'm not quite sure what you mean maes, but if you are suggesting that he spends the other 6 days that he's not coaching Irish sat at home with his family I find that unlikely.

If indeed that is the case, then why does he need to spend his one working day nearby, he could easily work for any club in the country then drive home at the end of that one day and still have the other 6 with his family, hence my assertion that the reason given doesn't sound particularly likely.

As I said to you before Eshaun Edwards said that the reason was family. That's quite plain and simple. And his reason.

Edwards lives in London, is separated from Heather Small, whom he has a son with. He computes to Wales for his contracted WRU work.

Wow, I had no idea Edwards was in a relationship with that M People singer

Don't forget Henson moved to France to be closer to his kids in London

blackcanelion wrote:Maybe it's plan B. He get's an inside look at England's set up going forward towards the world cup. He then gets to use the info on coaches and players against them in 2015................... Just thinking outside the square.

I'm sure it's about fresh insight.

Thats an interesting thought, unfortunately England rarely promote good club guys to the national role. Lancaster had no club coaching experience, most of the other guys have a year at most.

maestegmafia wrote:

blackcanelion wrote:Maybe it's plan B. He get's an inside look at England's set up going forward towards the world cup. He then gets to use the info on coaches and players against them in 2015................... Just thinking outside the square.

I'm sure it's about fresh insight.

Thats an interesting thought, unfortunately England rarely promote good club guys to the national role. Lancaster had no club coaching experience, most of the other guys have a year at most.

Good enough for the Lions though according to Gatland.
Stuart Lancaster has 2 years club experience as Director of Coaching at Leeds & gained the highest level of Elite coaching & spent 2 years as England's Elite Rugby Director before being appointed Head Coach. An impressive CV by any standard.

It's a bit pointless knocking England's coaching team when Wales appointed Howley with little experience & the majority of Welsh supporters seem to be on his back.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

blackcanelion wrote:Maybe it's plan B. He get's an inside look at England's set up going forward towards the world cup. He then gets to use the info on coaches and players against them in 2015................... Just thinking outside the square.

I'm sure it's about fresh insight.

Thats an interesting thought, unfortunately England rarely promote good club guys to the national role. Lancaster had no club coaching experience, most of the other guys have a year at most.

Good enough for the Lions though according to Gatland.
Stuart Lancaster has 2 years club experience as Director of Coaching at Leeds & gained the highest level of Elite coaching & spent 2 years as England's Elite Rugby Director before being appointed Head Coach. An impressive CV by any standard.

It's a bit pointless knocking England's coaching team when Wales appointed Howley with little experience & the majority of Welsh supporters seem to be on his back.

Im not knocking England's coaching team, I am stating the fact that the RFU very rarely go for a guy with a sound club rugby background. Jack Rowell and Brian Ashton are the only two exceptions I can remember who were proven club coaches with exemplary records before the RFU appointed them.

Geoff Cooke was a club coach for about 8-9 years before becoming England's coach.

Wasn`t Andy Robinson coaching Bath when they won the Heineken Cup in 1998?

Woodward only had a short spell with London Irish when England came calling but his ideas on display at the club were a factor in his appointment.

Only Martin Johnson had zero credentials at club level.

Rugby Fan wrote:Wasn`t Andy Robinson coaching Bath when they won the Heineken Cup in 1998?

Woodward only had a short spell with London Irish when England came calling but his ideas on display at the club were a factor in his appointment.

Only Martin Johnson had zero credentials at club level.

You are missing the point.

Jack Rowell and Ashton won things at club level they were very successful they proved themselves. Like Declan Kidney with Munster, Graham Henry Auckland Blues, Robbie Deans Crusaders, Heyneke Meyer Bulls, Gatland with Wasps...!

Lancaster, Cooke, Robinson, Woodward, Johnson had not achieved anything of note as a club coach.

maestegmafia wrote:Lancaster, Cooke, Robinson, Woodward, Johnson had not achieved anything of note as a club coach.

Not sure why a Heineken Cup win doesn't count as something of note for Andy Robinson. John Mitchell was far less qualified when he was named All Black coach. He had two underwhelming seasons with the Chiefs and probably got the national job because he had worked with Woodward - the same reason Robinson was asked to take the reins when Woodward stepped down.

England's Grand Slam wins have come under Mike Davis, Geoff Cooke, Jack Rowell and Clive Woodward. By your standard, maes, only one of those individuals had any rugby credentials. In reality, Davis is the only one with absolutely no club record. His coaching experience was at school level with Sherborne.

There's some understandable confusion because England have often appointed managers rather than coaches and the distinction is important. Geoff Cooke was the manager and Roger Uttley and Dick Best were his Head Coaches. Cooke was a big gun in rugby administration in the North when it was on top as a region. As it turned out, his tenure coincided with a higher profile for the sport in England so he got a lot of coverage. Barely anyone remembers Mike Davis.

I always thought Woodward was appointed for his coaching but, as it turned out, he was mainly a manager, in charge of a top coaching team. The arrangement worked well. When the RFU appointed Johnson, they imagined him in the same role but it's clear that he never developed the same kind of relationship with the coaches under him.

Lancaster is probably the RFU's ideal as far as an England coach goes. He's got coaching badges up the wazoo and has been brought up within the national structure. They certainly didn't anticipate appointing him as soon as they did, but the RFU did want to develop coaches internally rather than always relying on parachuting in a Premiership or international name.

It's really Catt and Farrell who are most short on credentials compared with previous England set-ups. Catt's completely new, and Farrell only had a year at the highest level with Saracens.

Rugby Fan wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Lancaster, Cooke, Robinson, Woodward, Johnson had not achieved anything of note as a club coach.

Not sure why a Heineken Cup win doesn't count as something of note for Andy Robinson.

Is suppose that it would be unfair to discredit Robinson for that Bath win. I apologise. I hindsight of Robinson's coaching career he has rarely proven to be a master. slated from England to Scotland for his inabilities.

Shaun Edwards quits London Irish role to focus on Wales duties

Defence coach Shaun Edwards has quit his consultancy role at London Irish to concentrate on his duties with the Wales national team.
Edwards began working one day a week with the Exiles in September.
London Irish have the worst defence in the Premiership and lie second bottom in the table.

"After consultation with Roger Lewis, CEO of the WRU, I am to concentrate solely on Welsh rugby in the build-up to Rugby World Cup 2015," Edwards said.
A disappointing season London Irish have won just two league games from 12 this season, conceding 31 tries

"Thus my consultancy work will cease with immediate effect."
Edwards was defence coach for the British and Irish Lions' tour of South Africa in 2009 but was overlooked by his Wales head coach Warren Gatland for this year's Australia tour.

London Irish, who reached the Premiership final in 2009, have struggled this season, conceding 31 tries to lie only one point clear of bottom-club Sale.
Edwards worked alongside Gatland at London Wasps and the club went on to win two Heineken Cup titles.

He linked up with Wales at the end of 2007, with the national team winning the Six Nations Grand Slam in 2008 and 2012 as well as reaching the semi-finals of the 2011 World Cup.

So much for wanting to be nearer his kid eh!

Have to be honest, I'll shed no tear over him leaving London Irish, our defence has been woeful this season. Perhaps now we will get a full time defence coach in rather than someone whose priorities are/were clearly elsewhere!

Good luck to London Irish. They are in a tough position, with one point separating Irish and sale at the bottom and eight points behind London Welsh you need to do something.

Coaches walking away won't help...!

Good news for Wales and possibly the regions too as Edwards is apparently going to work with the regional teams as a defence coach.

London Irish getting relegated could be very big for LW though, itll leave a gap for them to hoover up some floating fans who just want a localish team to follow and give them access to the "double headers" if they keep passing themselves off as a London team.


For Edwards, and Gatland, its a big time...their brand of rugby hasnt really adapted much since the Wasps days and a lot of Wales' play has become utterly predictable. Are they capable of new ideas and genuinely refreshing the team?

The coaches did a great job of refreshing the team pre RWC in 2011. We have had a lot of injuries this year and I don't think anyone expects Wales to defend the six nations GS this year.

Mind you no one expected Wales to win GSs in 05, 08 or last year.