Munster vs Ulster

Just starting a thread for discussion of the game at Thomond Park on Saturday night. Will add teams as they are announced.

Scarlets defeat at the hands of the Os has given Ulster some breathing room in 1st place- that fact, combined with the fact that there is an Ireland training camp in Kildare this week past and Ulster have three must win games in January (Scarlets, Glasgow and Castres) means that Ulster are resting a large number of key players.

Ulster XV & replacements to face Munster, RaboDirect PRO12, Thomond Park, Sat 29th December, 5.30pm:
(15-9): A D'Arcy, C Cochrane, M Allen, L Marshall, C Gilroy; N O'Connor, P Marshall;
(1-8): C Black, R Herring, A Macklin, L Stevenson, N McComb, R Diack, M McComish, R Wilson;
Replacements (16-23): N Annett, R Lutton, T Court, A O'Connor, A Birch, M Heaney, S Olding, R Andrew.

Still, from an Ulster PoV we'll still get to track the progress of some of the exciting young talent we have breaking through like Luke Marshall and Craig Gilroy. It also provides an opportunity for guys on the fringes of the first team like Adam Macklin, Neil McComb, Mike McComish, Michael Allen and Adam D'Arcy a chance to stake their claim for the important games ahead.

Munster: D Hurley; D Howlett capt, C Laulala, J Downey, S Zebo; I Keatley, C Murray; W du Preez, D Varley, BJ Botha; D O'Callaghan, B Holland; P O'Mahony, T O'Donnell, P Butler.

Replacements: M Sherry, M Horan, S Archer, Dave O'Callaghan, J Coughlan, P Stringer, R O'Gara, F Jones.

Good Munster team. Delighted with that- we'll learn a lot about our reserves.

Do we know who is likely to be away on international duty. You mentioned Ian Henderson is he likely to be away? Hope he's not. It'll be an interesting side we name.

Munster rested most of the Internationals for the Connacht match so the ones that are not injured should be available (although the training camp may get in the way of this).

Team annouced tomorrow!

Don't think Ulster will name much of a team for this. Apart from Irish camp, lads like Pienaar and Afoa need rest. Esp Pienaar.

And let's face it they hardly need the points.

I know we are some way ahead on points but I do think we should be trying to get all the points we can, especially if we are looking for a home tie. I would like to think some of the fringe players will stake a claim fodder their position. I recon we can cause an upset on Saturday.

The worst thing that can happen is after Saturday night we'll be nine points clear at the top of the table- thats the worst case scenario. And then we have every chance to increase our lead over the Scarlets the next week anyway, though if we let Munster win they'll be closer to reeling us in and could go second over Scarlets should we beat Llanelli at Ravenhill.

Ultimately guys like Rob Herring, Michael Allen, Paul Marshall, Adam D'Arcy/Peter Nelson and Adam Macklin/Declan Fitzpatrick (is he fit?) need gametime in case key players like Best, Cave, Pienaar, Afoa or Payne go down injured at the business end of the season. This seems like the perfect opportunity to give them not just game time but game time in a very high-level tough game.

This could be a repeat of Stephens day last year when an inexperienced Ulster side were put to the slaughter by Leinster.

I don't think an Ulster side under Mark Anscombe will get put to the slaughter. Everyone who will play has played already this season and are much, much better drilled in defence. And with all due respect, a trip to Thomond Park promises to be less intimidating in both psychological and real terms than a jaunt to the RDS. It's a difference in mindset really. McLaughlins mindset was about sending out sacrificial lambs in certain games so he could protect the 15-20 players he actually rated. Anscombes mindset is he wants 40 players good enough to represent Ulster at any time, so there are no small games. Shape up or ship out. Even if we do rest players we'll hopefully see a different outcome.

On UAFC people are guessing we might line out like;

15. A D'Arcy, 14. C Cochrane, 13. M Allen, 12. L Marshall, 11. C Gilroy, 10. N O'Connor, 9. P Marshall; 1. C Black, 2. R Herring, 3. A Macklin, 4. L Stevenson, 5. N McComb, 6. R Diack, 7. M McComish, 8. R Wilson (c).

16. N Brady, 17. R Lutton, 18. J Afoa, 19. A O'Connor, 20. N Williams, 21. M Heaney, 22. P Wallace, 23. P Nelson.

It's possible Paddy Wallace, Iain Henderson, Paddy Jackson, Nigel Brady etc. could come into the equation for selection too. I would be keen to see Paddy Jackson play given he had a poor enough game last time out. This season is a learning experience for him and I'd like to see him get back on the horse. I personally think he probably will start. The only guys I'd be worried about at this level are Cochrane, Macklin and O'Connor. But even with that team, a win is not beyond us. I think the key thing is the scrum will be affected without Afoa. Thats where I could see us losing it.

I would be quite happy for the above team to be put out although I would rather find out a bit about olding over NOC but I see the need for him.

Will Gilroy and Luke Marshall be available. If both are free and Stevenson is fit I would go

Black, herring, Macklin (he needs the test), Stevenson, McComb, Diack, McComish, Wilson, Marshall, Jackson, Gilroy, wallace, Marshall, Allen, d'arcy

And I think we have enough about that team to put up a fight albeit in a losing cause. Realistically last nights result has given anscombe all the breathing space he needs

Fully Irish qualified squad for the game - and Stevenson is back!

(15-9): A D'Arcy, C Cochrane, M Allen, L Marshall, C Gilroy; N O'Connor, P Marshall;
(1-8): C Black, R Herring, A Macklin, L Stevenson, N McComb, R Diack, M McComish, R Wilson;
Replacements (16-23): N Annett, R Lutton, T Court, A O'Connor, A Birch, M Heaney, S Olding, R Andrew.


I'm more than happy with that team, with NOC being the only worry. lets hope he has a decent game.

Whats the deal with Doyle? I though he did fairly well at the beginning of the season. Is he injured?

Eight Changes For Ulster
28 December 2012, 10:52 am
By The Editor

Internationals who missed the game in Galway last week, Peter O'Mahony, Conor Murray, Simon Zebo and Ronan O'Gara are all included in the Munster squad for the RaboDirect PRO12 clash with Ulster tomorrow at Thomond Park Stadium (5.30)

But while O'Mahony, Murray and Zebo start, O'Gara is named on the bench with Ian Keatley retaining the number 10 jersey though this time he'll start alongside Murray in place of Peter Stringer whose late intervention in that Connacht game prevented the match winning score. There's a return from injury for Damian Varley and Felix Jones (bench) while Donncha O'Callaghan and Billy Holland are the only combination up front who remain intact from a week ago in a game that sees Denis Hurley win his 100th Munster cap.

Munster: D Hurley; D Howlett capt, C Laulala, J Downey, S Zebo; I Keatley, C Murray; W du Preez, D Varley, BJ Botha; D O'Callaghan, B Holland; P O'Mahony, T O'Donnell, P Butler.

Replacements: M Sherry, M Horan, S Archer, Dave O'Callaghan, J Coughlan, P Stringer, R O'Gara, F Jones.

Strong Munster team. Having guys like Murray, Zebo and POM back is a huge boost. I'd have preferred to see Coughlan start ahead of Butler but Butler looks like a class act in fairness. Surprised at no Killer there but he's probably rested as he's played a lot this season. Looking at the team Ulster have named I'd be expecting a Munster win. Can't wait for the game now.

Doyle is injured Clive. Munster should win and if we can limit them to 4-0 or even better 4-1 points breakdown we should be pleased. Interesting selection calls for the HEC will be at 8 and 12

MMC

Given the two sides named, how much of a blow will it be to Munster when they lose this one?

It'd be pretty disastrous really Ozzy, especially given how close in league points the 2nd - 6th placed teams are (Scarlets have played an extra game). In truth that Ulster team is a weak team no matter which way you look at it. It's full of exciting individuals, some of whom will make the big time, some of whom already have but I think it's unfair to them to play then all together as opposed to being important parts in a more experienced team. One thing I will say though is under Anscombe they'll be very well coached and should not in any way taken lightly. I can't see past a Munster win though.

In fairness MMC it most definitely looks like a Munster win on paper, but you just never know. I'm tempted to check out the odds on an Ulster upset in this one.

Munster should be looking for a win for this one, Ulster could shade it but to say they are up against it is being kind in all honesty. Ulsterh ave no fear of Thomond Park though, these guys are well drilled and Anscombe has instilled a never say die spirit in this grand that would even make Eric Taylor proud.

A young side was anticipated for this game so no surprises really. Would be surprised if Munster didn't edge it. But shussssssh I never said that...

Where is JJ - surely he should be getting bench slot in some of these big games. This would have been a great opportunity to give him a run out in front of a packed Thomond. Dont see the point of having ROG on the bench

Seen our starting line up, a few concerns in a few positions but am glad to see Lewis stevenson back. Hope Adam macklin seizes the moment, pretty sure Callum Black will be able to deal with BJ. Backline is interesting, lets see if NOC will release the backline and put in a good performance. If NOC has a solid start this will be good, for our backs to play off something rather than getting hit everytime they receive the ball. I'm optimistic.

still no JJ. This is getting rediculous.

Here's something no-one talks about;

Over Christmas, when teams essentially have to rest players given the demanding Heineken Cup schedule and Irish training camps, Leinster and Munster get a pretty sweet deal. They both play Connacht and they never play each other. So they can rest and rotate without sacrificing results (all due respect to Connacht).

Ulster and Connacht don't play each other over Christmas and Leinster and Munster don't play each other over Christmas. This is done to give those two provinces the easiest run possible- to keep them sweet for having to rest so many players in that period. They don't have the pressure of that huge rivalry while they are understrength.

But it'll be interesting to see how that changes if Ulster vs Leinster is able to supplant Munster vs Leinster as the main rivalry in Irish provincial rugby and we get more players in the national side than Munster because I don't think they'll like having two massive interpros plus the pressure of resting players.

In many ways, I think Ulsters selection policy for our away game over Christmas in the past two years is our way of sticking the fingers up to the IRFU because we get a rawer deal than the other two.

Taking conspiracy theory to the next level

However Munster and Leinster usually play around Easter time usually a week before HC where one or both teams have 1.5 eyes on the HC and couldnt give two hoots about the Rabo at that particular time.

Fact of the matter is Ulster are so far ahead in the league and fighting strong on both fronts that they can well aford to throw this game without batting an eyelid.

Notch wrote:Here's something no-one talks about;

Over Christmas, when teams essentially have to rest players given the demanding Heineken Cup schedule and Irish training camps, Leinster and Munster get a pretty sweet deal. They both play Connacht and they never play each other. So they can rest and rotate without sacrificing results (all due respect to Connacht).

Ulster and Connacht don't play each other over Christmas and Leinster and Munster don't play each other over Christmas. This is done to give those two provinces the easiest run possible- to keep them sweet for having to rest so many players in that period. They don't have the pressure of that huge rivalry while they are understrength.

But it'll be interesting to see how that changes if Ulster vs Leinster is able to supplant Munster vs Leinster as the main rivalry in Irish provincial rugby and we get more players in the national side than Munster because I don't think they'll like having two massive interpros plus the pressure of resting players.

In many ways, I think Ulsters selection policy for our away game over Christmas in the past two years is our way of sticking the fingers up to the IRFU because we get a rawer deal than the other two.

Made this argument about Munster and Leinster never getting each other over christmass seasons ago and was always shouted down as a conspiracy theorist. Its obvious why it happens, but I'm pretty sure over the next couple of seasons its going to be Ulster and Leinster against each other and Connacht while Munster get Ulster and Leinster.

Yeah Dodger, but if/when that happens we get to shoot down Munster fans complaints as conspiracy theories so don't even worry about it

The reason is Munster and Leinster matches are usually full houses and the biggest rivalry. Ulster are the new kids on the block in that regards but it takes a while to build up rivalries.

profitius wrote:The reason is Munster and Leinster matches are usually full houses and the biggest rivalry. Ulster are the new kids on the block in that regards but it takes a while to build up rivalries.

Agree that that is one of the reasons.

BlueMuff wrote:Taking conspiracy theory to the next level

However Munster and Leinster usually play around Easter time usually a week before HC where one or both teams have 1.5 eyes on the HC and couldnt give two hoots about the Rabo at that particular time.

Fact of the matter is Ulster are so far ahead in the league and fighting strong on both fronts that they can well aford to throw this game without batting an eyelid.

Remember when Munster had to play Ulster in Ravenhill 3 days after playing Saracens in a HC semi (2008) (the match was called off over the New Year because of Snow).

It was just a massive coincidence that this game would have been the decider as to whether Ulster or Connacht would get a place in the Heineken Cup. Strangely enough, Ulster won the match and Connacht were shafted again.

profitius wrote:The reason is Munster and Leinster matches are usually full houses and the biggest rivalry. Ulster are the new kids on the block in that regards but it takes a while to build up rivalries.

Ulster would need to be getting a full-house for Leinster games for a start in Ravenhill before Leinster would consider changing.

There were more at the Ulster v Edinburgh game (11,078) in November than there were at the Ulster v Leinster game in Dec. (10,940).

Sin é wrote:

profitius wrote:The reason is Munster and Leinster matches are usually full houses and the biggest rivalry. Ulster are the new kids on the block in that regards but it takes a while to build up rivalries.

Ulster would need to be getting a full-house for Leinster games for a start in Ravenhill before Leinster would consider changing.

There were more at the Ulster v Edinburgh game (11,078) in November than there were at the Ulster v Leinster game in Dec. (10,940).

Yep, 138 is such a massive difference Also, it should be noted that certain protests may have put some fans off attending the match, or prevented them from doing so.

Anywho, hoping for a good game tomorrow, and expecting the guys to really get stuck in.

SUFTUM.

profitius wrote:The reason is Munster and Leinster matches are
usually full houses and the biggest rivalry. Ulster are the new kids on
the block in that regards but it takes a while to build up rivalries.

As Ulster v Leinster is the oldest interpro fixture it shows how great the
fans get on that they still haven't built up a rivalry!

Sin é wrote:Remember when Munster had to play Ulster in Ravenhill 3 days after playing Saracens in a HC semi (2008) (the match was called off over the New Year because of Snow).

It was just a massive coincidence that this game would have been the decider as to whether Ulster or Connacht would get a place in the Heineken Cup. Strangely enough, Ulster won the match and Connacht were shafted again.

No - it was a conspiracy. Ulster thought they'd be better importing a load of snow rather than face a weak Munster in January, just in case the results didn't go their way in the second half of the season and Connacht did better than expected. They also had to factor in the likelihood of Munster progressing in the HEC and not wanting to play the fixture until it suited them. Ulster must have carefully planned that they also had to play two games in three days. Considering that Connacht had two home games after that fixture and still finished five points behind Ulster, it seems fairly conclusive proof to those who believe in such things that a conspiracy was afoot.

Ulster were the only team that didn't manage to overcome the snow problem. As far as I recall the pitch was fine, it was the terraces were unsafe. I'm sure getting hammered by Leinster a few days previously made cancelling the fixture a bit more attractive!

I'm sure Munster would have coped better if the game was rearranged for during the 6Ns when no Magners games were played between the end of Jan and middle of Feb. or between 1 Mar and 21 March.

Ulster lost all of their games after that one, so it was a very close shave for Ulster. Connacht had to take the defeat to a full strength Munster in the Xmas period.

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

profitius wrote:The reason is Munster and Leinster matches are usually full houses and the biggest rivalry. Ulster are the new kids on the block in that regards but it takes a while to build up rivalries.

Ulster would need to be getting a full-house for Leinster games for a start in Ravenhill before Leinster would consider changing.

There were more at the Ulster v Edinburgh game (11,078) in November than there were at the Ulster v Leinster game in Dec. (10,940).

Yep, 138 is such a massive difference Also, it should be noted that certain protests may have put some fans off attending the match, or prevented them from doing so.

Anywho, hoping for a good game tomorrow, and expecting the guys to really get stuck in.

SUFTUM.

Unless Ulster can fill the Aviva for Leinster (& IRFU) in November (the week before a Heineken Cup match), the fixtures will remain as they are. There are a lot more Munster fans living in Dublin than Ulster fans and secondly, a lot of those Munster fans are gone home for the Christmas period and wouldn't probably attend.

Hmmm I don't know. I'm sure the organisers might want the no 1 and 3rd best supported team to play the no 2 and best supported team.

Why bother with the no 3 and 2nd best supported team? They aren't no 1 at anything

Best of luck to the boys today hope anyone traveling down has a good time I was meant to travel down but due to some unfortunate person putting a brick through my front door window while I was away over christmas have to stay here now.

Unlucky Neil. Hope you get it sorted... The joys of living in Newtownabbey!

I have to get up at 4:30 am to watch it if that makes you feel any better

Christ, it's back.

SUFTUM

Amusing piece by Gavin 'Le Petit' Cummiskey.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/1229/1224328252846.html

The funniest line is; "The only way to convince the provinces to take these fixtures seriously is to make qualification into the Heineken Cup be dependent of final placing in the Pro 12. "

As if we'll be dropping out of the Top 6 if we lose tonight!

It's a pretty great team talk right there for Mark Anscombe; a 'dud' team. Munster set to 'smash' the 14 point handicap. Truth is, we've earned the right to name this team with 11 wins so far this season. We can target games to make sure everyone is fresh for the sharp end. Last season we finished sixth with 12 wins total so think 'Le Petit' is barking up the wrong tree when he talks about Heineken Cup qualification...

It does mate, little kids seen that I wasnt there and done it I think they hit a few empty houses on the street, its all good until I get a hold of them lol on another note glad to see Birchy on the bench today like to see my mates playing lol

SUFTUM

Notch wrote:Amusing piece by Gavin 'Le Petit' Cummiskey.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/1229/1224328252846.html

The funniest line is; "The only way to convince the provinces to take these fixtures seriously is to make qualification into the Heineken Cup be dependent of final placing in the Pro 12. "

As if we'll be dropping out of the Top 6 if we lose tonight!

It's a pretty great team talk right there for Mark Anscombe; a 'dud' team. Munster set to 'smash' the 14 point handicap. Truth is, we've earned the right to name this team with 11 wins so far this season. We can target games to make sure everyone is fresh for the sharp end. Last season we finished sixth with 12 wins total so think 'Le Petit' is barking up the wrong tree when he talks about Heineken Cup qualification...

He also neglects to mention that the Irish player welfare program puts artificial constraints on the team Anscombe can pick.

By the same token we're not going to be able to play John Afoa, Ruan Pienaar, Jared Payne and Nick Williams in 30 matches this season. They are not going to be able to play at the level in 30 games we need them to, physically. I thought Afoa and Pienaar were going to get both games off and I expect them to get rested in the 6N too because they've been screaming out for a break.

I'm relatively disappointed we have to rest all of these players at once but if we get a BP win in Round 5 of the Heineken Cup it will all have been worth it- last year we were hammered in the RDS and then beat Tigers with a BP and that was decisive.

What I'm happy enough about is this side have all played quite a lot of rugby together in the Ravens.

neilthom7 wrote:Best of luck to the boys today hope anyone traveling down has a good time I was meant to travel down but due to some unfortunate person putting a brick through my front door window while I was away over christmas have to stay here now.

Oh that's a big bummmer Neilly. Sorry to hear that. Why are people so fecking juvenile sometimes?

The match is live here for anyone in the UK to watch:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20852972

Oh boo. I was kinda hoping this presenter was going to have Tommy with him when he was introducing his guest pundits there. Ah well...

Cari wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:Best of luck to the boys today hope anyone traveling down has a good time I was meant to travel down but due to some unfortunate person putting a brick through my front door window while I was away over christmas have to stay here now.

Oh that's a big bummmer Neilly. Sorry to hear that. Why are people so fecking juvenile sometimes?

The match is live here for anyone in the UK to watch:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20852972

Yeah some idiots about still come on Ulster cheer me up with a win

Dear me...they picked the wrong place to do a pitchside interview when it sounds like there's an opera going on in the background.

Awh Quinny Love his ramblings...

c'mon ulssterrrr

Yeah come on Tommy's Team!! ooh NOC is playing too. He's a sweetie.

Handbags!

...and terrible sound issues on this stream. I think it's them...they sound like daleks.

Thats the issue- Wian Du Preez on Macklin. Macklin needs to show something tonight or he won't be retained.