Bath in pursuit of Faletau

First topic message reminder :

http://www.thisisbath.co.uk/story-17699820-detail/story.html?

NOOOO....... Not our Toby! Will be gutted if he leaves.

Will there be any Welsh internationals playing in Wales in 5 years time?

Good morning clown shoes

Scrumdown wrote:Manofgwent,

My solution would be for the wru to allocate an amount of £3.25 million each to the regions as a base figure and then for each player that appears in the national squad during the year, that region receives an additional amount of £100k.

So your decision is to keep funding the regions less than their Scottish, Irish, English and French competitors, for part time players, without allocating sufficient funding to develope them in the first place? Why do you expect private businessmen to pay for this?

Scrumdown wrote:
The decision to let faletau leave would then be a much more difficult one as the dragons would be losing both a world class player and £100k.

Never mind that the wages offered abroad are greater than that, the cost of developing these players, or the fact they will hardly play for the region.

Scrumdown wrote:
As martyn hazell has mentioned elsewhere, he is not interested in the £100k bath have offered them for faletau as the dragons are likely to receive £50k from the lions in the summer, which makes letting him go less appealing.

So we are taking him at his word now? In that case read the bit where he says that he intends to build a team around Toby next season and also to exercise the option in his contract to sign him for another year.

scrumdown wrote:
So this kind of system where the wru reward regions based on players supplied for the national team could work very well as it would motivate the owners of the dragons to keep hold of their best players as there would be financial consequenses to letting players go and not just from signing them up on improved contracts.

Could work very well except the regions would still be underfunded compared to any other European nation, the academy funding is insufficient, and you are expecting private parties to fund all this for the benefit of Roger Lewis and his cronies.

Glas a du wrote:Good morning clown shoes

Get your own material or lose the writer tag

No, I think it's a very appropriate moniker for you Stone

Boo diddums, Glas doesn't like me.

Tell me where am I wrong, clownshoes?

No, I like you a lot. That's why I've given you a nickname

I'm in agreeance with Griff. You also have to have the cash to compete with the wages that are needed to hold your top players. I went on the international pages of v2 yesterday. I barely ever do this, well I don't really feel I have such a strong opinion on Welsh selection as others on here. I watch the other regions but not as much as for example a true Scarlets fan. I can comment on the Dragons boys, but when you see people putting squads of 35 together and the Dragons only have 2 players in there, you don't feel too involved. I'm not arguing with the selections. Theyre spot on, but it's so depressing that we have 2 from 35 and if you wanted to get 50 players in Wales together you may only be looking at Lewis evans coming into that.
My point is, whether Faletau stays or not, i's too late. The horse has already bolted. The promise of the 2011 side has gone. It'll be years before the likes of Dixon and Amos will be real top players. We have to wait for the next crop, but at the minute this Deagons squad is weaker than ever.
I heard Kingsley Jones discussing Wales options at fly-half the other day. About 7 players were named and obviously the Deagons haven't got a 10 that will be considered. Only 4 regions and we haven't got a player in our front 5 that would ever push for a Wales call. If and when Faleatau leaves, it'll leave the Dragons with no internationals and there's no way we'll be in the Market for quality players. We never have been. Next season we'll be barely more than a Premiership outfit!
During the last World Cup, Dragons fans had so much to be happy about. We had 5 players in the welsh squad. Almost filling our quota. Now for various reasons they will soon be gone. Really sad.

MoG - but come next RWC you may well be in a similar position again. Like you said Amos and DIxon are real prospects, couple with the likes of Prydie, J Evans, L Evans, Groves (maybe even D Evans) who are all still pretty much young pups.

manofgwent wrote:Only 4 regions and we haven't got a player in our front 5 that would ever push for a Wales call.

That's nonsense. Phil Price has been looked at and Sam Parry is bound to be considering he was an U20 player recently.

MoG, why do you think our board didn't spend out on these players, given they are obviously prepared to invest? Do you think it'd be worth their money doing as the O's do and subsidising the academy given according to them they put in about 7 times what the WRU do? Do you think Team Wales players are worth the investment needed to keep them given they won't be with us most of the season?

Risca Rev wrote:

manofgwent wrote:Only 4 regions and we haven't got a player in our front 5 that would ever push for a Wales call.

That's nonsense. Phil Price has been looked at and Sam Parry is bound to be considering he was an U20 player recently.

Lloyd Burns was very unfortunate, but there were times when the Dragons scrum was doing good work to the ospreys.

Biggest problem at dragons is Robling at flyhalf and to be honest Tuilagi at centre.

Dragons need Steffan Jones back and a centre combo that can play rugby.

Oh Adam Hughes, I knew there was another who should be around the RWC squad.

Adam Huges should be starting weekly

Steffan Jones isn't even in the squad travelling to Galway this weekend So we are going without any ten cover on the bench. Lunacy.

Adam Hughes has been injured, but now he is fit hopefully he will be selected by Darren. I'd probably prefer to see Leach and Hughes as our centres, given that our tactic of give the ball to Tuilagi (often from a standing start) generally isn't working too well. I don't mind Tuilagi in certain games, but as I say he needs to be taking the ball at a bit of pace, because he's pretty easy to line up.

Stone Motif wrote:MoG, why do you think our board didn't spend out on these players, given they are obviously prepared to invest? Do you think it'd be worth their money doing as the O's do and subsidising the academy given according to them they put in about 7 times what the WRU do? Do you think Team Wales players are worth the investment needed to keep them given they won't be with us most of the season?

Stone, I agree with you that 1) it sometimes doesn't seem worth it developing international players as they will then be away most of the time, and 2) the money to have/develop these players will need to come from individual benefactors (i.e. put more money in to attract/develop them, like the Ospreys need to do) which is a*se backwards and unsustainable. However, I wonder if it's a dangerous game to be playing by not doing it? I.e. on the face of it the Dragons are not producing many internationals, not chucking money into the academy, so the WRU may just say 'goodbye' and shut us down. Obviously the answer is for the WRU to fund it rather than generous (but not stupid) money men. However, if we keep taking a stubborn stance do you think we could be signing our own death warrant?

Depends, the Ospreys are doing it all and they were lined up for the bullet when the WRU thought they had an excuse. I'm amazed to be honest we've lasted as long as we have being 50 per cent owned by the WRU. I guess this is why the investment is being made in the ground so Rodney Parade Ltd have an asset they can use even if we are folded. The point is, this threat is all new to the other regions, go and have a look at the stink being kicked up by O's fans on their forum. We've had the threat of closure/barrier to investment since the day the Chuckle Bros of Ebbw Vale buggered off. I think our board have held out hoping for a change in ownership, but it's plain to me the WRU have had us in their sights for a while now. Which is a shame as imo we have massive potential in Gwent if things were in our own control. Certainly more than the North Wales region I think they want to replace us with.

Stone Motif wrote:Depends, the Ospreys are doing it all and they were lined up for the bullet when the WRU thought they had an excuse. I'm amazed to be honest we've lasted as long as we have being 50 per cent owned by the WRU. I guess this is why the investment is being made in the ground so Rodney Parade Ltd have an asset they can use even if we are folded. The point is, this threat is all new to the other regions, go and have a look at the stink being kicked up by O's fans on their forum. We've had the threat of closure/barrier to investment since the day the Chuckle Bros of Ebbw Vale buggered off. I think our board have held out hoping for a change in ownership, but it's plain to me the WRU have had us in their sights for a while now. Which is a shame as imo we have massive potential in Gwent if things were in our own control. Certainly more than the North Wales region I think they want to replace us with.

That wasn't exactly the WRU that lined them up for closure, but the HMRC.

Rev. I'd be shocked if Parry or Price got on the summer tour. Playing for the U20's doesn't mean a progression to the full team. just look at former U20's captain Gustaffson!

Come on now spider, the HMRC have been known to make mistakes, the WRU on the first sniff of trouble didn't ask the Ospreys if it was a problem, they immediately conspired behind their backs! I'd be miffed if I was an Osprey fan, the Scarlets being mentioned by Roger as pure deflection from his own clowning.

Glas a du wrote:Come on now spider, the HMRC have been known to make mistakes, the WRU on the first sniff of trouble didn't ask the Ospreys if it was a problem, they immediately conspired behind their backs! I'd be miffed if I was an Osprey fan, the Scarlets being mentioned by Roger as pure deflection from his own clowning.

To be honest if the WRU didn't put a contingency plan together for what would happen if they folded then I would be suprised. The same as I would be willing to put money on the WRU having already drawn up where the Scarlets internationals were going when we were backs against he wall over the Stardey Court Case. It is good sense.

But to accuse the WRU of trying to close them down is pure tripe. If they had tried to close them down we would have heard about it over the summer, and not three months into the season after.

manofgwent wrote:Rev. I'd be shocked if Parry or Price got on the summer tour. Playing for the U20's doesn't mean a progression to the full team. just look at former U20's captain Gustaffson!

http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/sport/rugby/dragons/10002532.Dragons__We_have_to_produce_more_Wales_stars/

The point is, they are being looked at, thus are pushing for selection.

See your point. Time will tell. Hope they do push on. But I'd be shocked if it was any time soon. We do seem to have improved our scrum slightly in recent games.

Stone Motif wrote:So your decision is to keep funding the regions less than their Scottish, Irish, English and French competitors, for part time players, without allocating sufficient funding to develope them in the first place? Why do you expect private businessmen to pay for this?

Because the private businessman's role in regional rugby should really be that of a sponsor. They do not really have another role to play.

Let's say the regions were 100% owned by the WRU. They could potentially appoint individuals such as Andrew Hore, Kevin Bowring, Clive Woodward as chief executives with the aim of ensuring that every penny of funding received is spent in the most efficient manner in terms of producing a successful sports team.

At the moment, it is the likes of Martyn Hazell and Peter Thomas who have the final say on how the funding received by the east wales regions is best spent, but they are not as qualified to carry out this job as someone such as clive woodward or kevin bowring would be. One cannot help but think that money is being wasted.

I should also remind you that Saracens are making losses of £5million per year and therefore the funding that the english teams receive is not sufficient either. Even Manchester City make losses!

These clubs are being financed to a greater extent by their owners and it is about time dragons supporters expected more from the likes of mathews, brown and hazell who by all accounts are some of the wealthiest individuals in the uk. Otherwise move aside and appoint individuals who are qualified to manage a limited budget properly.

Fantasy land stuff. If you cannot respond to posts why quote them. While the WRU own 50 per cent of the Dragons only a cretin would put any serious money into them.

If their wealth of experience in private enterprise wasn't enough, let's not forget Brown and Hazell took Newport RFC from the doldrums to being one of the best supported clubs in the UK. They clearly know what they are doing, and understand that pumping money into the current system is futile.

You still haven't breached the subject of the Academies yet, or provided any evidence that money is being 'wasted' as you put it. If that was the case, why are the Dragons expected to turn a small profit this season, arguably their worst since formation?

Since Tony Brown came back on board we have brought in Dylan Matthews, appointed a new CEO who has overseen a financial overhaul of the business, built a new stand and corporate facilities so the ground is in use 7 days a week, and brought in extra revenue from Newport County. There will be extra money available for players next season and we now have a top notch coach giving WRU Darren Edwards a kick up the arse.

But no, these guys don't know what they're doing, let's send for Clive frickin Woodward.

Stone motif,

'Wealth of experience in private enterprise...'. So what? You are a MUG.

Just appoint a few accountants and lawyers to the board and a marketing director. Professional rugby is not a complex business.

Clive Woodward is a rugby world cup winning coach and a performance director of the most successful olympic team in british history. But you think an office furniture tycoon has more to offer the dragons. Nonsense. The only thing he has to offer is his money and he is not offering that anymore

The fact of the matter is that the dragons are a failure and there is a need for change. They need to be run by professionals, not entrepreneurs from other fields.

You don't appear to have any answers, just excuses and a defense of the status quo.

Says the clownshoes who wants the WRU in charge. Let's see.

WRU take ownership of the Celtic Warriors, 2004. Result: Celtic Warriors, dead, 2004.

WRU take 50% ownership of the Dragons, 2003. Result: ten years of underachievement as any investment from those perfectly willing to do so impossible.

Only an absolute moron, or a chippy anti-regionalist who think the sun shines out of Roger Lewis's backside, would want more WRU control. They've brought the pro game to it's knees.

You carry on with your pink cowboy hat down the Milstone Stadium at Wales 50,000 home games next season. Just have the good grace to thank those who are paying for it.

Stone Motif wrote:Says the clownshoes who wants the WRU in charge. Let's see.

WRU take ownership of the Celtic Warriors, 2004. Result: Celtic Warriors, dead, 2004.

WRU take 50% ownership of the Dragons, 2003. Result: ten years of underachievement as any investment from those perfectly willing to do so impossible.

Only an absolute moron, or a chippy anti-regionalist who think the sun shines out of Roger Lewis's backside, would want more WRU control. They've brought the pro game to it's knees.

You carry on with your pink cowboy hat down the Milstone Stadium at Wales 50,000 home games next season. Just have the good grace to thank those who are paying for it.

You should be very very careful using the word moron mate...!

Still have no idea why you can't discuss this in a civil fashion.

What's the point, the guy clearly can't read.

Stone Motif wrote:What's the point, the guy clearly can't read.

What's the point in getting so angry? What's the point in calling names? Doesn't reinforce your point, in fact it massively detracts from it.

I didn't call him names, I said his original post was clownshoes, which it is, as have all the others been.

If you want to be the man in the middle, call it, who's right?

Stone Motif wrote:I didn't call him names, I said his original post was clownshoes, which it is, as have all the others been.

If you want to be the man in the middle, call it, who's right?

Your not right...in the head!

But I do admire your passion for the gwent dragons, if not your vision.

The dragons should be one of wales strongest regions. It has the population base and the rugby tradition.

But it doesn't have the right people. The ospreys have andrew hore running the show. The dragons have a demotivated martyn hazell. No contest. And Dean Ryan has already left!

THe Dragons need a business plan first and foremost...!

Mastegmafia,

I Know that the PWC report revealed that one of the regions did not even have a business plan. Was it the Dragons?

I doubt it, being as this was exactly the kind of thing Chris Brown was brought in to sort out. He held an open meeting with supporters personally a short while ago to explain where the region is going over the next five years. They are also currently recruiting for a new general manager for RP ltd with these aims quite clearly stated in the job description - yet again, it's proven you don't know what you are talking about. I'm glad you brought up the O's and Andrew Hore. You obviously missed the numerous recent press releases from them stating regional rugby is unsustainable, the reliance on benefactors unfair, the central funding a pittance, and the competition from the union impossible. But hey, maybe they can flog Adam Jones and parachute Sir Clive in to save the day. The very people you hold up to back up your unfounded claims are saying the exact opposite to you, and they don't have to deal with a shady 50 per cent partner from hell that has a track record of turning everything they touch to Poopie. So if I'm 'mental', so are the directors at the O's. You're out of your depth and have been since you started banging on about Pooler frickin Park...

But a business plan should have been in place ten years ago when regional rugby started before all that funding was wasted.

Why are you so impressed by the fact that they have attached a job description to the general manager role advertised? Basic stuff really.

They don't need a general manager, they need an andrew hore type figure in charge with real vision.

They may well make a small profit this year. They'll make a rather big one if they sell faletau. Regions should be judged on their non financial performance as well as their financial results and on that score, the dragons fail miserably. You really are a mug.

More good news for the Dragons. Losing 30-11 to Connacht. They'll be the first to lose to Zebre and could even finish bottom of the Rabies league!

Why is Steffan Jones not at flyhalf?

He is turning Cross Keys season around as Robling is crippling the Dragons season.

Scrumdown wrote:But a business plan should have been in place ten years ago when regional rugby started before all that funding was wasted.

Why are you so impressed by the fact that they have attached a job description to the general manager role advertised? Basic stuff really.

They don't need a general manager, they need an andrew hore type figure in charge with real vision.

They may well make a small profit this year. They'll make a rather big one if they sell faletau. Regions should be judged on their non financial performance as well as their financial results and on that score, the dragons fail miserably. You really are a mug.

The only thing I'm impressed with is your ability to be as boring as you are obtuse. I was merely refuting your in all likelihood incorrect accusation, you utter berk.

manofgwent wrote:More good news for the Dragons. Losing 30-11 to Connacht. They'll be the first to lose to Zebre and could even finish bottom of the Rabies league!

Sad if this happens but even more likely next year as Zebre are improving the Dragons are going backwards. The WRU should buy out the rest of the Dragons and offer them up for sale to a new management using a tender process but they must be based in Gwent. If nobody takes up the offer in Gwent then hand the team over to the Valleys teams to see if they can make a go of it they can't do worse.

AGAIN

Dragons fans why is Steffan Jones playing for Cross Keys and Robling for the Dragons...?

No one has ever answered and I ask the same question all the time.

maestegmafia wrote:AGAIN

Dragons fans why is Steffan Jones playing for Cross Keys and Robling for the Dragons...?

No one has ever answered and I ask the same question all the time.

Robling is the better defender. To be fair, Stef has looked gash when he's played this season too. I don't think either of them are ready.

glamorganalun wrote:

manofgwent wrote:More good news for the Dragons. Losing 30-11 to Connacht. They'll be the first to lose to Zebre and could even finish bottom of the Rabies league!

Sad if this happens but even more likely next year as Zebre are improving the Dragons are going backwards. The WRU should buy out the rest of the Dragons and offer them up for sale to a new management using a tender process but they must be based in Gwent. If nobody takes up the offer in Gwent then hand the team over to the Valleys teams to see if they can make a go of it they can't do worse.

They can't do any worse on a fraction of the already insufficient funding? Great logic. The WRU should give the Dragons a fair chance and let the board run their organisation as they see fit is entirely a more reasonable suggestion.

Stone Motif wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:AGAIN

Dragons fans why is Steffan Jones playing for Cross Keys and Robling for the Dragons...?

No one has ever answered and I ask the same question all the time.

Robling is the better defender. To be fair, Stef has looked gash when he's played this season too. I don't think either of them are ready.

Disagree wholeheartedly. Jones is the most talented flyhalf Dragons have on their books.

The fact that you pick a defending flyhalf over him speaks far more of why you lose so many games.


A decent flyhalf who is skilled enough to put the dragons in the right places, who can pass and kick will turn your season around.

At the moment dragons rely on Tuilagi and he is a very average player indeed.

A backline of Evans, Jones, Prydie, Dixon, Hughes, Chavanga and Evans and you'll start winning games.

glamorganalun wrote:

manofgwent wrote:More good news for the Dragons. Losing 30-11 to Connacht. They'll be the first to lose to Zebre and could even finish bottom of the Rabies league!

Sad if this happens but even more likely next year as Zebre are improving the Dragons are going backwards. The WRU should buy out the rest of the Dragons and offer them up for sale to a new management using a tender process but they must be based in Gwent. If nobody takes up the offer in Gwent then hand the team over to the Valleys teams to see if they can make a go of it they can't do worse.

Based on the Valleys current proposal of less playing budget than the Dragons you love to slag off constantly? Genius. That'll work.

But it does show where your agenda is again, "disenfranchised boy".

maestegmafia wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:AGAIN

Dragons fans why is Steffan Jones playing for Cross Keys and Robling for the Dragons...?

No one has ever answered and I ask the same question all the time.

Robling is the better defender. To be fair, Stef has looked gash when he's played this season too. I don't think either of them are ready.

Disagree wholeheartedly. Jones is the most talented flyhalf Dragons have on their books.

The fact that you pick a defending flyhalf over him speaks far more of why you lose so many games.


A decent flyhalf who is skilled enough to put the dragons in the right places, who can pass and kick will turn your season around.

At the moment dragons rely on Tuilagi and he is a very average player indeed.

A backline of Evans, Jones, Prydie, Dixon, Hughes, Chavanga and Evans and you'll start winning games.

Ah right, it's that simple is it? Maybe you should be running the Dragons, consensus is we need a real rugby brain at the top.

I'd agree Stef has talent, but by all means list me the games where he's played well this season when given the chance. I'd also agree that long term, a Dixon/Hughes centre pairing is going to be very dangerous, said it all season. But to pick on Robling and Tuilagi is arbitrary as 1. the best backs in the world would struggle behind our tight five, and 2. Evans lost the O's match not Robling. If you play Stef, you've got to play Smith or someone like him to cover him in defence, so we lose an attacking weapon to bring one in. Right or wrong it's a tough call to make. For the record, I think Jon Evans is our best SH and Robling is a 12.

Jon Evans had a bad game against the Os but he has been superb all season. Robling isn't up to it.

Yes I really think something as simple as a change of game management, a decent flyhalf and getting rid of you wage consuming journey man Tuilagi would make a huge difference.

Your front five are good, played superbly vs ospreys. Even put the pinch on in a few scrums.

Dragons need play some rugby, they were everyone's second team because they played so well. Picking Tuilagi and Robling I have all but lost interest in them.

maestegmafia wrote:
Your front five are good, played superbly vs ospreys. Even put the pinch on in a few scrums.

Lol. It was an improved performance but you've just lost all credibility sorry. Our scrum has been taken to the cleaners by pretty much every team in Europe, as it would have been by the O's if they'd had some senior locks playing.

maestegmafia wrote:
Your front five are good, played superbly vs ospreys. Even put the pinch on in a few scrums.

Lol

Have to agree with stone. Our backs have scored some good tries this season, especially when Prydie and Dan Evans are playing together. However, our Achilles heel has been the front five all season. One decent game against the O's doesn't forgive the rest of the poundings. There has been a slight improvement over last year, but we still struggle to complete with anyone in the scrum.

Just to add that Steffan Jones has featured in 9 games this season for the Dragons but has only won 2. That suggests he isn't the winning talisman that the dragons need.