Bath in pursuit of Faletau

First topic message reminder :

http://www.thisisbath.co.uk/story-17699820-detail/story.html?

NOOOO....... Not our Toby! Will be gutted if he leaves.

Will there be any Welsh internationals playing in Wales in 5 years time?

Risca Rev wrote:

glamorganalun wrote:

manofgwent wrote:More good news for the Dragons. Losing 30-11 to Connacht. They'll be the first to lose to Zebre and could even finish bottom of the Rabies league!

Sad if this happens but even more likely next year as Zebre are improving the Dragons are going backwards. The WRU should buy out the rest of the Dragons and offer them up for sale to a new management using a tender process but they must be based in Gwent. If nobody takes up the offer in Gwent then hand the team over to the Valleys teams to see if they can make a go of it they can't do worse.

Based on the Valleys current proposal of less playing budget than the Dragons you love to slag off constantly? Genius. That'll work.

But it does show where your agenda is again, "disenfranchised boy".

I did say the team should stay in Gwent, how long do the WRU give the current Dragons, the Scots and Irish have improved even the Italians but the Dragons, you don't need me to point out the obvious.

The scots and Italians have improved because they've brought home internationals players and bought in other quality players. How are the dragons meant to improve when their best players do not want to stay? The dragons make improved offers, but if they can't afford to keep them then how are they meant to stay. More money might help.

Also the scots and Italians currently can guarantee players HC rugby. The dragons cannot guarantee that; at best they can say that it's an outside chance. The scots and the Italians therefore have a natural advantage there (for the moment at least).

I agree with the Dragons fans on here. We have 2 inexperienced 10's who neither are ready. That's why Dan Evans was moved there as he is more experienced even if he's a natural 15.
I really like Steffan, but we needed to try and keep Tovey. Even though I don't think Tovey will go and and feature for wakes as a starter, he had experience. You could see the difference that Wayne Evans gave us against the Blues. As much as I like Johnny Evans, to have a youn 9 and 10 behind our pack has been a recipe for disaster. Whether it's Robling or Steff, they are both on a hiding to nothing. It'll either be the best education in their young careers or it'll finish them. Just look at what Stephen Jones did for Priestland's career. If we had a steady old head at 10, we'd have won a few more games. Steff is the more talented, but defensively Robling is better. If Tovey would have stuck with us for 2 more years then Steff would have fittd in nicely. If he was playing behind the Ospreys pack, he'd be doing very nicely.

On our front 5. Well it is the worst in the Rabies. Even the Scarlets took us apart. Can you imagine any other region still picking from Sidoli, Adam Jones and flanker Coombs?? They're all very good pros but Sid and Jones are so past it. Take Lydiate and Faletau out of that team and we will be the weakest team in the Rabies next year! We may be already!!

Griff wrote:Have to agree with stone. Our backs have scored some good tries this season, especially when Prydie and Dan Evans are playing together. However, our Achilles heel has been the front five all season. One decent game against the O's doesn't forgive the rest of the poundings. There has been a slight improvement over last year, but we still struggle to complete with anyone in the scrum.

Just to add that Steffan Jones has featured in 9 games this season for the Dragons but has only won 2. That suggests he isn't the winning talisman that the dragons need.

That's more than Robling mate.

Our backline really needs Tuilagi. Anyone watching us over the past few years would know that. I don't think Robling is up to it at this level, I'd exchange him for Jones. That means guys like Dan Evans and Amos will be in the squad regulary. If either of those are off with international honour that Harries can go to full back. Apart from 10 the backs is where we have some decent depth. Some front 5 players and an experienced fly-half would be great.

Robling's played 12, Strffan
Has played 9.
If I had to say who if think will go the furthest in their career, if back Steffan. He's a lot more creative, but I think they go with Robling as he's the steady Eddie type of player. If Jones was behind a decent pack id start with him every time, but if you try things behind a beaten pack you end up looking foolish when it doesn't come off. If anyone saw his performance at the Scarlets, he went to pieces. I do feel sorry for both players. They've been thrown into the Lions den.

maestegmafia wrote:

Griff wrote:Have to agree with stone. Our backs have scored some good tries this season, especially when Prydie and Dan Evans are playing together. However, our Achilles heel has been the front five all season. One decent game against the O's doesn't forgive the rest of the poundings. There has been a slight improvement over last year, but we still struggle to complete with anyone in the scrum.

Just to add that Steffan Jones has featured in 9 games this season for the Dragons but has only won 2. That suggests he isn't the winning talisman that the dragons need.

That's more than Robling mate.

Robling played 12 won 3, so that's 1 in 4, while Steffan Jones is 2 from 9 which is 1 in 4.5. Fractionally better Maes. Is that all you're going to do to defend your claim that Steffan starting will answer all of the problems?

Griff

Having watched rugby for a few years, when you see one player struggling to work out what to do, or another lad full of ideas, you back the lad with the ideas.

A decent flyhalf making sensible decisions would make a massive difference. The only trick up Roblings sleave is to pass to the big Samoan and hope he can get over.

If you disagree with that don't question my values question your own.

Another example of your hypocrisy: you lambast others on this site for not being open to the opinions of others, yet when you make an argument it is your opinion only that is allowed. Why should I question my own values for having the opinion that both players are similarly struggling?

I see both players struggling, and I watch them week in week out. Steffan Jones looks good in the Welsh Prem. As did Robling, at both 10 and 12. As did the likes of Kristian Phillips. The step up to pro is a big one and these players have struggled. The problem at the Dragons is that we lose players and then, because we're told 'you can't fill the place with foreign players', 'use players on your own door step', 'develop from within', as soon as the experience leaves we throw in these undercooked youngsters instead of easing them in. We've got Amos and Dixon at 17 years of age. Who are they to learn from if we are to sell the foreign players or journeymen and make them the no.1 in their positions?

Tovey wasn't exactly the most experienced player but was our no.1. He left so we were forced to chuck in two kids. Ridiculous. We need an experienced 10 to bring these on. But we can't do that because a) no-one with any international ambitions wants to come to RP because of the lack of HC rugby (fair enough), and b) we're told not to buy foreign exports. This is what happens when you throw youngsters in, it's sink or swim, and with a poor pack it will usually end up as sink. This is also what will happen if you have a development region, 15 kids running round chasing their tails getting beaten up by experienced pros. That is no good for anyone, not for the players, not for the fans, not for the league, not for the opposition. We'd be mad in Wales to go down that route, but that's what I can see happening.

So back the ones with talent. Steffan Jones is your man.

Griff, Mog - testify brothers...honestly it's like some people think we don't watch our own region play ffs

Stone Motif wrote:Griff, Mog - testify brothers...honestly it's like some people think we don't watch our own region play ffs

That may just be because you can't convey your thoughts and ideas in a civilised fashion without trying to insult people!

Yep. Griff's spot on. These young kids need mentors. They need to learn from experienced pros. It doesn't really matter whether you prefer Jones or Robling, they're both going to struggle behind our pack. As much as I like Steffan, he has had a few mares for us and the fact that he does the business consistently for Cross Keys shows (as Griff said) the big gulf between the regions and premiership.
It's possibly the oldest saying in rugby. The game is won up front. Well so far this season we've pretty much come of the worst. Our front 5 is the worst in the Rabies. Is it any coincidence that we barely ever turn up for the 2nd half. It's normally because the pack are out on their feet.
You can't lose Charteris, Brew, Martyn Thomas and Tovey. We replaced Thomas with Dan Evans and had cover for Brew with Chav and Harries and also signed Prydie bur we didn't replace Tovey or Charteris. Lewis Evans will fill Lydiate's place but will we replace Toby when he goes with a signing or will it be Tom Brown to fill in?

That is no different at the other regions.
Macarlets are the only team with a mature flyhalf and Priestland is an Accademy product.

Biggar 23 started at ospreys regular flyhalf at 18

Patchell 19 first season.

Priestland 25, started for Scarlets aged 18.


We are all in the same boat, you just have to get on with it. But selecting the right players is key.

Spectacular missing of the point there. A. each of those teams have a tight five at least slightly less rubbish than the Dragons. B. Each of those teams have at least one senior fly half with international experience on their books at the same time which helps them develop. C. Each of those teams tends (or tended, in Biggar's case when he was finding his feet, but then see point A.) to play with a big inside centre who can defend solidly and/or take the pressure off by running simple crash ball moves, while you castigate the Dragons for playing Andy T. By all means keep digging though...

Losing Faletau is the last thing the dragons need.

Dropping Andy Tuilagi would be a pretty bad idea for the dragons at the moment, hes one of their only consistent go-forward ball carriers! And as someone's mentioned with 2 very inexpereicned young flyhalfs it would be suicide to take away that safety of the inside crash.

The tight 5 is the real problem area though - are they going to be able to address it? I dont think so, not for a while anyway.

I'd generally like to see a more sensible distribution of players across the regions but its a very complicated situation to say the least...

to be fair to the dragons they did try and strengthen at 10 this summer, with an experienced 10. they were looking at Francois Brummer who plays for Griquas. While other targets were ex scottish international Phil Goodman who signed for London Scottish and London Irish Adrian Jarvis who signed for Bristol.

http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/sport/dragons/9718412.Dragons_end_fly_half_hunt

What we need in reality is for the Dragons to become an attractive option for Welsh players. At the moment no one wants to come here, and that is understandable as we're down the bottom of the league consistently and we're not in the Heineken Cup. What we need is for players out of favour at other regions or playing in England to think that the Dragons is the place that will get them in the shop window and can help them to realise international aspirations more so than sitting on the bench at another region. Instead, players look to England or, if they're 'stars', they look to France.

Comfort is right, a redistribution of players is what's called for but it has to start by making the Dragons somewhere players want to come. Just think what the Dragons could do if they had some of the talent currently choosing to play in England - Mitchell at Prop, Eifion Robets, Cai Griffiths (back on loan at O's though), Dom Day, Peel, Ritchie Rees, Martyn Roberts, Stephen Jones, Shingler, Nicky Robinson, MacCloud, Henson (!), Kingsley's son, etc., etc. I genuinely feel that all of the Dragons problems would be solved if we could convince these sort of players that the Dragons is a decent place to further their careers.

The players mentioned are all playing in England, so it's not really a lifestyle decision they've made as there's not much difference in lifestyle (although Newport isn't 'up there' in the attractive locations stakes! But most players would probbaly live in Cardiff, etc.). Therefore, it must be a money thing, so putting something in place to entice players back like they do in Ireland with the tax break, or like they've done in Italy at Treviso and Aironi/Zebre with the incentives, is a must. This will help to bring on the youngsters at the Dragons without the need to chuck them in at the deep end. Some will say that it will block players at the Dragons, but in reality some of these players are not up to pro rugby but are put in because they are all that is available. The competition created will help to sort the wheat from the chaff. If the Dragons academy prospects can't oust the players brought in over time then they're probably not up to the task. If they can then they can help to develop a strong squad with good depth and everyone is happy.

agreed griff, Ireland have it spot on with the tax incentives.

We currently pay less than most countries and give no incentive to not leave to be paid more and still play internationally. Its not exactly like the regions have stadia busting to the rafters with rabid fans either. Its not like they're winning anything consistently (Ospreys apart - to be fair, they have been pretty consistent over the years).

Why would a player want to stay at their region? Thats what the WRU need to be asking themselves, not how long they've got left before they can pay off the stadium debt.

The talk is that the Ospreys are looking at Faletua, they will be in dire need of a decent no. 8 next year and with Joe Bearman not getting any younger and Stowers looking to be out of the door next season, I think the Ospreys will be looking very long and hard for a decent no. 8.

Well they're wasting their time then, as per Hazell's comments. O's and Dragons probably be feeders to the Turks and Cardiff by then anyway.

Oi clown shoes Scarlets isn't spelt T U R K S

How many years left on the stadium? Any chance the WRU are just putting off decisions until it's paid off and then they'll restructure and use the money for more funding?

HammerofThunor wrote:How many years left on the stadium? Any chance the WRU are just putting off decisions until it's paid off and then they'll restructure and use the money for more funding?

I doubt that the WRU are trying to buy Cardiff Arms Park i.e., property develpment not rugby investment.

I assume Hammer's referring to the Millennium Stadium, not the Arms Park.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I assume Hammer's referring to the Millennium Stadium, not the Arms Park.

I was referring to the WRU trying to buy CAP from Cardiff RFC hence extending their debts on top of the Millennium debts.

Glas a du wrote:Oi clown shoes Scarlets isn't spelt T U R K S

Whatever you say C L O W N S H O E S, you're the 'writer'

Mr Writer to you, mate

Stone Motif wrote:Well they're wasting their time then, as per Hazell's comments. O's and Dragons probably be feeders to the Turks and Cardiff by then anyway.

I don't see that happening. It is possible that the Dragons will have their funding cut, seeing as they are unlikely to be in the HEC. Also depending on the HEC talks it may end up we only have two regions in the HEC, so it is possible the other Amlin Cup team could get their funding cut and the two HEC sides get an increase in funding. Also it is possible that the Scarlets could be shutdown over the EU State Aid concerns that a Carmarthen Counciller raised, and the WRU could be hatching plans for their 'stars' to be signed by the Ospreys etc.

Lets face it where the WRU are concerned there are no logical considerations, so it could even be the two/three HEC sides get their funding cut and the Dragon get a funding increase in order for them to become more competitive.

I'm not saying this with my Dragons hat on (honestly), but I don't agree with regions having their funding cut on the basis that they won't be playing in the Heineken Cup. That's only going to make it harder for the third- / fourth-placed regions to catch the top two / three. I can't see how that's good for competition.

LP its not good for competition, its good for the development of players playing at the highest club level and bringing some success to the regions (or one of them).

The regions with their funding cut would have their players signed up by the HEC regions when they are good enough no doubt. Any offcasts from the HEC regions would no probably go the other way.

Not the best idea for me but I'd understand the benefits and why its something the WRU would consider.

Comfort wrote:LP its not good for competition, its good for the development of players playing at the highest club level and bringing some success to the regions (or one of them).

The regions with their funding cut would have their players signed up by the HEC regions when they are good enough no doubt. Any offcasts from the HEC regions would no probably go the other way.

Not the best idea for me but I'd understand the benefits and why its something the WRU would consider.

Especially if they were to cut funding by say 10% and then increase the funding elsewhere by 9%, and manage to keep 1% in their back pocket

If we went to two 'top' teams and two under resourced, development teams then who is going to want to be either at the bottom two or on the bench at the top two?

What I mean is that we'd be setting ourselves up for only developing two decent players in each position, e.g. a top fly half at the two top regions, e.g. Priestland and Biggar, for example. No top fly half would want to sit on the bench behind these two, and they wouldn't want to play for the development regions, so they'd probably go overseas or to England. So we'd only end up with 2 options. Same for all other positions. At least at the moment we have the ability to field 3 players in each position in the HC. We'd end up with what Scotland have essentially. Two teams as our main focus. No-one would voluntarily play for something termed a development region, sitting lower down in the pecking order than two other teams, so these would, in time, become desolate regions full of failed prospects hoping to earn a crust and a hand full of teenagers.

4 teams of equal aspiration, opportunity and potential is what we should be aiming for, as they are trying to do in Ireland.

That's what I don't understand about it, Griff. Surely the WRU would want as many young Welsh players as possible to get the chance to play first-class rugby in Wales. Cutting the number of regions would reduce the number of spaces for these young Welsh players.

And let's say we end up with two regions being the recipients of most of the WRU's money in an attempt to win the Heino. Well they're going to bring in a fair few foreign players, aren't they, which again won't help Welsh players get game time.

and every foreigner in a two region set up will be proportionately more of a problem, if that makes sense.

That does make sense, Glas, and I agree.