Klitschko

First topic message reminder :

Was going to write a full review of this but realised I could not be bothered, so just wondered if anyone else had seen the documentary Klitschko. Me and TSMR watched it the other day and I have to say I enjoyed it a lot. Make no secret of the fact that I have a lot of time for the brothers and the documentary did nothing to change this opinion, they come across as likeable, intelligent but extremely driven individuals.

Am not sure the film will convert anyone who is not already a fan but the production values and amount of fight footage should mean any boxing fan should find enough in there to enjoy and when one sees the injuries and setbacks they have had to overcome at various times of their career it is hard not to admire them. Also as it can be picked up fairly cheaply now I would recommend it.

Rowley wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:I will wager that there is not a single new or interesting thing that can be said about 'slave contracts.

It's an anagram of Travel Contacts, does that count?

This hurts Jeff but......

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

Rowley wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:I will wager that there is not a single new or interesting thing that can be said about 'slave contracts.

It's an anagram of Travel Contacts, does that count?

This hurts Jeff but......

Except it's not......

Cartel's VAT con...

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

Rowley wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:I will wager that there is not a single new or interesting thing that can be said about 'slave contracts.

It's an anagram of Travel Contacts, does that count?

This hurts Jeff but......

Except it's not......

You're right top hat, I am a T missing, however has given union a chance to reveal his borderline autism so every cloud.

Rectal van costs.

Union Cane wrote:Rectal van costs.

Rowley wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

Rowley wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:I will wager that there is not a single new or interesting thing that can be said about 'slave contracts.

It's an anagram of Travel Contacts, does that count?

This hurts Jeff but......

Except it's not......

You're right top hat, I am a T missing, however has given union a chance to reveal his borderline autism so every cloud.

azania wrote:

victorgarco wrote:This whole slave contract thing is nonsense. No one has seen a contract and no fighter who has complained has shown a contract to see if it is true.

But lets say it is true, surely it is a good thing for us boxing fans so why are people complaining. All too often we get the top boxers avoiding each other and they are all too happy defending their one belt and avoiding other belt holders. At least the Klitschko will create a unification fight.

Why would a boxer oppose a rematch clause? Why would you oppose the chance to have a unification fight? This is the problem with boxing we get boxers avoiding fights and actually publicly stating that they will not sign a fight because if they win they might have to face another world champion in a unification fight. Madness!

Don't start this nonsense again. Its an opinion based on what many other boxers have said.

You provided but two examples of hearsay as I remember. The rest of it was cooked up in your imagination.

Enjoyed it too, Rowley. I really felt you were looking at two very different personalities: Vitali - born fighter. Wlad - born specimen. Enjoyed it.

Vitali always seems the quieter and moodier of the two. Also doesn't have as good a command of the English language as Wlad who's English is excellent.

Both are nevertheless fine heavyweights and this board should give them their dues once in a while.

Super Boon, I think the vast majority of people on here do appreciate that they are both excellent heavyweights. It is just a few, very vocal contributators that rant about them being over rated.

do slaves have contracts?

Do they get to haggle over salary? sick days? number of weeks holiday? Notice period? Nope. surely, if you have a contract, you're not a slave.

ergo slave contracts equals load of tosh if you ask me

I don't think they are excellent heavyweights..

Classy guys for sure......But they are oversized plodders.......

When you look at the footwork and general all round skills of Tubbs, Wiherspoon, Page and the like which are head and shoulders above these guys..........even though they lacked in the discipline department...

Hard to call these guys excellent...

Vitali lost to a tired, old, sluggish Lewis in his prime.....

Personally I don't see Witherspoon losing to a one handed, sack all talent Sanders!!!! (rip of course)

excellent my a**e

I did say it was just a few very vocal contributators that rant about them being over rated, so thanks for proving my point.

"a few more knowledgeable contributors"

sounds better.... and no need to thank me.......

Vitali was winning the fight against Lewis...

He is a great, but not the greatest. OK there competition may not have been the greatest, but credit to them for beating who's in front of them. A bit like Roger Federer between 2003-2007, you have to give them credit.

However now I think Vitali is falling away he will retire in 2013. As a last fight I think he should fight David Haye, that would be exciting!

Lewis was over-weight, 38, sluggish and un-interested....

Vitali was a last minute substitute that Lewis hadn't prepared for...

and he still couldn't miss him......

Azumah Nelson and Mike Spinks used to lose the first couple of rounds of all there fights while they sized up the opposition...

Means Bo-diddly-Jimini-squatly...

It Must Be Love wrote:Vitali was winning the fight against Lewis...

Oh goody, can we go over that again as well?

We aim to please.....

Maybe we can do it in a reverse linear kind of way this time!!

Union Cane wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:Vitali was winning the fight against Lewis...

Oh goody, can we go over that again as well?

I think that was the joke he was making.....

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Lewis was over-weight, 38, sluggish and un-interested....

Vitali was a last minute substitute that Lewis hadn't prepared for...

and he still couldn't miss him......

Azumah Nelson and Mike Spinks used to lose the first couple of rounds of all there fights while they sized up the opposition...

Means Bo-diddly-Jimini-squatly...

Lest we forget Lewis, was one of the greatest heavyweights that ever lived. Plus he wasn't the out of shape blubber that is being made out and Vitali equally had disadvantages both bad luck (cut) and a huge, huge leap in opposition and was called in at a few short weeks notice.

Lewis was one of the finest heavyweights ever. Vitali and brother Wlad, whilst being unpretty, apply their natural advanatges to their maximum in a division which is all about imposing your advanatges over the other and not necessarily about being the best pure boxer. That being said, they are both excellent heavyweights. Only the one-eyed and bloody minded say otherwise.

He was 38....had a long career, was old and slow...and weighed a ton......

and still couldn't miss "El Ploddo's" face.......................

end of....

Holmes was 38 when he got starched off Tyson..Louis was 38 when he got battered of the Rock.............

Vitali was in his prime...and still lost..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He was 38....had a long career, was old and slow...and weighed a ton......

and still couldn't miss "El Ploddo's" face.......................

end of....

Holmes was 38 when he got starched off Tyson..Louis was 38 when he got battered of the Rock.............

Vitali was in his prime...and still lost..

Lewis looked sharper than people are giving credit for in the fight, besides he was still one of the best ever. Vitali was, green, underprepared, and stopped by an unfortunate cut caused by laceups. Too many variables.

Holmes was unbeaten and still young in heavyweight terms when he lost to............a light heavyweight for gawd sake.....not just once but TWICE! Yet people credit Holmes as a true legend. Lost twice to a blown up light heavy and got all he could handle off a minor talent in Cooney. Yet Holmes is credited as a legend.

Vitali and Wlad. True class and excellent heavyweights. Period.

Vitali knew what he was up against.......

Lewis was lightning you're right...reminded me of prime Camacho......

Holmes was at his peak when he lost to Spinks.............

As for excellent...by definition they are not....

Spinks was an unbeaten top 5 light-heavy by the way..........Not sure Cooney is an alltime great.....

Lewis was an ATG. No shame in being green and losing to Lewis.

I never said Cooney was an alltime great but he gave ATG Holmes everything he could handle. Holmes struggled against Spinks. He was owning him with the jab at the start of the second fight but fat Larry let Spinks back into it. Vitali and Wlad would have kept Spinks on the end of their jab all evening long.

Just saying....if Wlad and Vitali are not excellent, hardly any heavyweight ever was. I never said they were ATGs (which is debatable) but they are fine heavyweights in the grand old scheme of things.

Yeh but they weren't Americans from the 1980s super......

Come on now, Truss. Wladimir isn't a "plodder" and never has been.

Find me another 6'6", 245 lb guy who has legs as good as his, or hands which are quicker, and then maybe I'll come around to your way of thinking.

Splattered a couple of times early on in his career, sure. As was Walcott (and as Ali said of him, "Ah, Jersey Joe - now there's a man who could move!"). As was Jack Johnson. As was Schmeling.

It seems that, for some reason, it's automatically become impossible for any Heavyweight to actually improve and get better after some early career setbacks these days. Fortunately, those aforementioned old boys are given a little more leeway, for reasons which I can't fathom.

In fact, it's not as if Sanders and Brewster are cut from a notably lesser cloth than Mr Rahman, who took out a peak Lewis who was supposed to be THE man at Heavyweight, or the Bonecrusher, who was outclassed by Bruno for nine and a half rounds, spent the full twelve hanging on for dear life against Tyson but, as it goes, had enough to stop Witherspoon in one; the same Witherspoon who you seem to think is a league above either Klitschko.

Like Boon, I don't think they're all-time great Heavyweights in the proper sense, but they are both excellent fighters.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He was 38....had a long career, was old and slow...and weighed a ton......

and still couldn't miss "El Ploddo's" face.......................

end of....

Holmes was 38 when he got starched off Tyson..Louis was 38 when he got battered of the Rock.............

Vitali was in his prime...and still lost..

Weighed a ton? He was only 6 pounds heavier than usual. Lewis was in amazing form going into that fight he had only 1 defeat in 18 fights leading up to Vitali and he avenged that defeat. He also had something like 14 Ko victories in those 18 fights leading up to Vitali.

Yes Lewis only had 2 weeks notice but that means Vitali only had 2 weeks notice.

You keep saying Lewis could not miss Vitali's face but you do realise punch stats vitali was landiing the most jabs and power punches in EVERY round. Damage wise yes Vitali had a cut eyebrow but Lewis had a broken nose.

Anyway this debate is very boring as it has been done to death on these forums. Lewis won the fight but up until the stoppage he was clearly losing (and a stoppage on cuts in a fight you are losing against a relatively unknown boxer is not something that his fans should gloat about or indeed it is not a great way to end your career)

I would say the Klitschkos will go down as all time greats if I had to guess. Their longetivity is too great in boxings flagship division and they are immensely popular in their own part of the world as well as having uniqueness in being brothers and the first really dominant European Champions (I exclude Lewis on the basis of mulitnationalism and the fact he boxed mostly in the U.S).

I would say they are more likely to go down as all time greats who some will argue were not actually all that great (step forward JBW!) than great fighters who did not become all time greats. I still don’t think that the changes in heavyweight boxing, especially in terms of size is fully acknowledged. I find its comparing apples and oranges in so many cases and I personally find it easier to believe giants like the Klitschkos would go back and dominate other eras than sub 200lb heavyweights would reign for a decade in this last era.

I also think the Klitschkos have actually been extremely good athletes within the context of their size and move very well for 6’7 250lb guys. Vitali at 41 now maybe not but 10 years ago he was.

I think Wlad showed against Haye how exceptionally good his footwork and speed/balance were for someone so big.

How on earth was Vitali green when he faced Lewis?

He was 32 with 33 fights to his name as well being a former world champion, if anything his most impressive wins were pre Lewis against Hide, Donald, Hoffman as well as outboxing Chris Byrd. Don't think he's gone and shown anything he didn't show before that, just seems a lazy excuse for a loss which was less conclusive than it would have been against a better conditioned and younger Lewis.

Vitali and Wlad are both very good but excellent they are not, terms like that are for the very very best only.

Vitali was green in terms of opposition faced of course he was. Who did he fight before Lewis that was on any kind of level as Lewis? You could also argue that wins against the likes of Gomez, Peter, Arreola, Adamek were better than anything he did pre Lewis.

The fact is he was underprepared and had never faced anything like as tough an opponent as Lewis before is a fact that the naysayers like to completely ignore. They also like to ignore the fact that his performance was seen as a heroic and unexpected given before the fight he was considered to be fodder for Lewis. It's only since he actually showed up to be pretty damn good do people like to beat him with it like a stick. That he lost against a "fat", "old" "unprepared" Lewis which is a huge stretch given that Lewis had won 17 of his previous 18 fights before that. Despite Lewis being on the slide , he, just like Calzaghe went out pretty much at the top of their game.

Why do we not beat Lewis with a stick for his loss against McCall? Lewis was in his prime at 29 and he could only avenge a drugged up crying McCall who couldn't fight back. Funny how Lewis doesn't get battered for that loss as much.

K2 are both excellent fighters. Despite the quality or lack of it, they couldn't be as ludicrously dominant as they are if they were anything less. They will both probably go down as ATGs (maybe not Vitali) but I supect Wlad will if he chalks up a few more wins. I suspect history will be considerably kinder to K2 than the old trouts here on 606v2!

You can be dominant without being excellent and to simply say that Vitali was green because he had never faced a world class opponent doesn't wash, he hasn't gone on to show anything he didn't before that fight. I'd take Hide, Donald and Byrd over his post Lewis opposition every day of the week, it's not as though he's gone to beat world class opposition is it.

Its silly little thinks like saying Lewis had done this and that before so couldn't be old and unprepared because he simply was both of those things, to say he was in the best possible shape just isn't true everyone could see it.

When Chris Byrd and David Haye happen to be among the best opponents you have faced it's clear to say that the level they have fought at is awful.

Super, i guess it depends which experts you listen to. I was shocked Lewis took the fight at short notice because, it was obvious to me that vitali was the only threat out there for him. But the preparation thing cuts both ways, so I don't think it's an excuse... Lewis had fought big guys before. I suspect his motivation was on the wane, which us why we never got a rematch. Anyone who states for sure that the fight would have gone one way or the other without the cut, is talking rubbish.

However, I think I'd say that Lewis gets a pretty hard time over mccall!

If he'd had a 3 month training camp bla bla bla... A good fighter will adapt. Vitali only ever fights one way and loses everytime to Lewis.

Even if VK loses everytime to Lewis I fail to see what the shame is in that and also fail to see why that renders VK less than an excellent heavyweight. I rank Lewis on a good day as in the top 5 best ever heavies. Even a so called fat Lewis is a superb boxer. You can't punish VK for just one fight, especially considering his cut was unfortunate, he never got another chance despite craving a rematch and at the time was lauded for putting up a much better showing than most expected.

The amount of times that game and unbeaten challengers (eg. Odlanier Solis or Chris Arreola, both undefeated before Vitali) go in thinking they're going to smash the robot to bits only to find he's actually a lot better than they thought has been countless.

I stand by my comments that both K2 are excellent, fine heavyweights who have superb range finding abilities, much better movement than they're given credit for, superb stamina and use their natural advantages to their maximum effect the way all fine heavyweights do.

Excellent heavyweights K2. Excellent.

Super D Boon wrote:Even if VK loses everytime to Lewis I fail to see what the shame is in that and also fail to see why that renders VK less than an excellent heavyweight. I rank Lewis on a good day as in the top 5 best ever heavies. Even a so called fat Lewis is a superb boxer. You can't punish VK for just one fight, especially considering his cut was unfortunate, he never got another chance despite craving a rematch and at the time was lauded for putting up a much better showing than most expected.

The amount of times that game and unbeaten challengers (eg. Odlanier Solis or Chris Arreola, both undefeated before Vitali) go in thinking they're going to smash the robot to bits only to find he's actually a lot better than they thought has been countless.

I stand by my comments that both K2 are excellent, fine heavyweights who have superb range finding abilities, much better movement than they're given credit for, superb stamina and use their natural advantages to their maximum effect the way all fine heavyweights do.

Excellent heavyweights K2. Excellent.

I agree with you. In 2003 Lewis was the cream of the HW division and was seen as unbeatable because he was a lot better than everyone else. Vitali went in against him with 2 weeks notice and was winning the fight and only lost because of cuts.

People look back and say Lewis was past it but he really wasn't. Thhere is no evidence to say he was past it apart from he turned up 6 pounds heavier than usual. Before Vitali Lewis was in red hot form with 17 victories in 18 fights and about 14 KO's in those 17 victories.

Both Klitschkos will go down as ATG. Both beause of their length of dominance(vitali has been a HW champion on and off for nearly 15 years now) and wlad will most likely retire in 4 years time as the unified champion and will most likely retire unbeaten in 15 years (2004 last loss and will prob retire in 2018/19) with the most title defences of any HW champ.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:.............

Vitali was in his prime...and still lost..

Can you explain why Vitali was in his prime in 2003?

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I don't think they are excellent heavyweights..

Classy guys for sure......But they are oversized plodders.......

When you look at the footwork and general all round skills of Tubbs, Wiherspoon, Page and the like which are head and shoulders above these guys..........even though they lacked in the discipline department...

Hard to call these guys excellent...

Vitali lost to a tired, old, sluggish Lewis in his prime.....

Personally I don't see Witherspoon losing to a one handed, sack all talent Sanders!!!! (rip of course)

excellent my a**e

Plodders? What a jerk. Wlad has exceptional footwork. One of the best out there and one of the best ever at HW. Just because he doesn't perform the Ali shuffle or dance around for 12 rounds doesn't make his footwork less effective or impressive. I'd say Wlad is not only an excellent boxer, he is absolutely brilliant.

Super D Boon wrote:Lewis was an ATG. No shame in being green and losing to Lewis.

I never said Cooney was an alltime great but he gave ATG Holmes everything he could handle. Holmes struggled against Spinks. He was owning him with the jab at the start of the second fight but fat Larry let Spinks back into it. Vitali and Wlad would have kept Spinks on the end of their jab all evening long.

Just saying....if Wlad and Vitali are not excellent, hardly any heavyweight ever was. I never said they were ATGs (which is debatable) but they are fine heavyweights in the grand old scheme of things.

No he didn't. The Cooney fight was one sided. Some judges with issues had Cooney ahead before the KO. How I would never know or understand.

Holmes was over the hill when he was robbed against Spinks. Way over the hill.

More people fooled by a glorified Klitschko pr excercise it seems. The fact a movie was even released to try and hype up just shows the level of desperation.

Gordy wrote:More people fooled by a glorified Klitschko pr excercise it seems. The fact a movie was even released to try and hype up just shows the level of desperation.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1032821/

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0248667/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

The Cooney fight was "one sided", Az? It wasn't one sided at all and it wasn't until the tenth round onwards that Holmes took complete control.

For much of the early stages, Cooney's jab was working just as well as Holmes' and Larry found himself getting walked down a little more than he'd have liked! For all the pre-fight hype, Cooney acquitted himself well and showed that he was a worthy world title challenger.

The right man and better fighter won, but before those final two or three rounds that fight was fought on a very equal footing, I thought. I liked your appreciation of Wlad's skills above, mind you!

I think you need to watch it again 88. Holmes was giving him a boxing lesson. Scored a KD in the second round and thoroughly out-boxed him and made sure his jab never left his face. How the judges had Cooney ahead at the time of the stoppage was amazing.

Remember the Cooney - Holmes fight.......Probably the last fight that was sold on race.....Some shocking statements beforehand and it left a sour taste....

Started at the Holmes-Snipes fight...where Holmes attacked him..bloodying Howard Cosell's nose in the process!! Cooney's manager Rappaport was one of the worst offenders...King not much better..

Have to agree with Az.....whilst Cooney was always in the fight ...Holmes did the superior work.....

Funnily enough they are friends now and work together in charitable work.....

Big fight for all the wrong reasons........................

Have to remember that Cooney tried distancing himself from the race issue with Don King being the worst offender from memory.

No Truss, I'm not saying that Holmes wasn't the better man before the stoppage, what I'm saying is that it most certainly was not a "one sided" fight, not by a long stretch.

I don't think that Larry particularly outjabbed Cooney, either. It was Holmes' other famed punch, the right cross, which won him that fight more than any other. Let's not forget that Holmes was wobbled significantly by Cooney's trademark shot - the left hook - in the fourth, and may even have been a little relieved that it came not long before the bell.

There were a lot of cagey and close rounds, so perhaps if you're going by the maxim that the challenger needs to really 'take' the title from the champion then maybe I can half understand why you might have Holmes a street ahead, but for me those first ten rounds were on a very, very equal footing, with Holmes taking complete control from there onwards.

Arguably Larry's best win and finest night as Heavyweight champion, all things considered.

I got round to finishing the documentary. Was quite good. Not sure about how they dealt with the Lewis fight, showing Vitali celebrating and Lennox looking shocked and knackered after the fight and how Vitali was some sort of moral winner. Really don't want to open that debate again, jusy commenting on the editing of the film more than anything else.

Chris Byrd came across as quite likeable, as did the brothers. Vitali seems more jovial than Wlad.

Surprised with how badly hurt Wlad was after the Brewster fight and how Vitali was telling him to retire. Revealing stuff, although it does give the film more depth to show Wlad fighting back from rock bottom.

I thought the stuff about Vitali in politics was a little unnecessary but I suppose that depends on whether it was a film about the brothers' boxing careers or a film about their lives so far, and seeing as it had included their lives before boxing, maybe it was fair enough to include it.

Just using the film to discredit their political opponents, how every one of them is corrupt and how Vitali's intentions are 100% honourable, felt a bit out of place, just shoehorned in at the end. Maybe it's true, but I'm not sure it was the right place to bring it up.

Although seeing the politicians trying to physically eject Vitali from their Parliament may show that they have some mental deficiancy anyway. Nutters.

Il Gialloblu wrote:Although seeing the politicians trying to physically eject Vitali from their Parliament may show that they have some mental deficiancy anyway. Nutters.

I thought the punch up shown on BBC web site was just a general free for all and had nothing specifically to do with Vitali, who just stood at the back looking amused. Or did I miss another event?

bhb001 wrote:

Il Gialloblu wrote:Although seeing the politicians trying to physically eject Vitali from their Parliament may show that they have some mental deficiancy anyway. Nutters.

I thought the punch up shown on BBC web site was just a general free for all and had nothing specifically to do with Vitali, who just stood at the back looking amused. Or did I miss another event?

I haven't seen the one on the BBC so I'm not sure. It looked like Vitali was getting jostled on this one and he said he warned them not to touch him again.