Ireland Back 3 options

So this is a conversation that was started on an Ulster thread about who will end up in the back 3 during the 6N for Ireland.
Presuming that Kidney choses Darcy-BOD or Marshall-BOD as his centre partnership with Murray and Sexton as halfbacks what should his back 3 be?

There are so many options and it is one of the areas where Ireland look ok depth wise with the emergence of some really good young guys.

Kearney: One of the best 15's in the world and favourite for the Lions shirt. Great aerial skills and great kicker. Over the last few years he has started entering the line intelligently and has made a lot of line breaks.

McFadden: Huge work ethic, most of his game time this year despite BOD's injury has been on the wing. Very strong in contact and good under the high ball. Quick without being lightening as NZ demonstrated during the Summer but people have questions about his defence.

Zebo: One of Ireland's best players IMO. Has improved no end since last season marrying an instinctive running game with a more balanced decision making quality and more practiced basics. Huge boot and very quick. Confident which is arguably the most important factor. Could play 15 or wing.

Earls: Will be competing with BOD, Darcy and Marshall for a centre position where he has played nearly all his rugby this year but could fill in at wing or 15 where personally I feel he is better. Very quick and elusive with a very good strike rate.

Trimble: Very good for Ulster currently but was dropped by Kidney in the AI's for Gilroy. Trimble doesn't have a great try scoring rate and isn't the most incisive winger but his basics are rock solid and he is very strong defensively. Could be used as a target for the backs due to his physicality.

Gilroy: Mister Flair. Exceptionally quick. Exceptionally illusive. Deceptively strong. He is by far the best attacker in Ireland however there are questions regarding his defence.

So what do people think, place your votes and then give us your reasoning maybe throw in a bench option too!

Done Pete.

Biltong wrote:Done Pete.

Cheers Bilt, is laoch thu!

Pretty good crop coming through. Plus i hear Fitzgerald is back soon at Leinster.

Apologies put the voting on singular there but Bilt has sorted it now.

I went

Kearney at 15 with Gilroy and Zebo on the two wings. I was going to put in Trimble or McFadden at 14 instead of Gilroy to add some power then I remember Gilroy is quite strong and gets over the gainline well and also L.Marshall will be starting (at least in my head he will be) and gives you enough power.

On the bench I've gone for McFadden due to versatility and form currently.

Be great to see Marshall get a few games at nine, I'm a very big fan of his.

maestegmafia wrote:Pretty good crop coming through. Plus i hear Fitzgerald is back soon at Leinster.

Fitzgerald is starting against Edinburgh tomorrow night, I'll be watching him like a hawk myself, very excited for his return.
I didn't include him as he hasn't played since April and felt anything I said could be challenged. If he plays the HCup games (I think he may get on to the bench if he plays well tomorrow) then he has a chance of making it in to the squad.

maestegmafia wrote:Be great to see Marshall get a few games at nine, I'm a very big fan of his.

+1
He is an absolute beast for such a small guy, his legs are huge!

He has good skills and is a good decision maker, if he does well tomorrow night then he should make it in to the starting team for Ulsters HCup games and if he does well there he will be in a straight shoot out with Earls and Darcy for the 12 jersey

Kearney, Zebo and Gilroy for me. Running threats everywhere there and that in itself will keep defences honest enough to give the centres space. This only works if there is a valid threat in the centre (ergo Marshall over D'arcy)

Maestag

Paul marshall isn't selected. Luke Marshall could well be at 12

I went for Kearney at 15
Earls and Trimble on the wings.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Be great to see Marshall get a few games at nine, I'm a very big fan of his.

+1
He is an absolute beast for such a small guy, his legs are huge!

He has good skills and is a good decision maker, if he does well tomorrow night then he should make it in to the starting team for Ulsters HCup games and if he does well there he will be in a straight shoot out with Earls and Darcy for the 12 jersey

I think you are talking about 2 different Marshalss Pete about Luke Marshall (centre) and Maesteg about Paul Marshall (Scrumhalve)

neilthom7 wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Be great to see Marshall get a few games at nine, I'm a very big fan of his.

+1
He is an absolute beast for such a small guy, his legs are huge!

He has good skills and is a good decision maker, if he does well tomorrow night then he should make it in to the starting team for Ulsters HCup games and if he does well there he will be in a straight shoot out with Earls and Darcy for the 12 jersey

I think you are talking about 2 different Marshalss Pete about Luke Marshall (centre) and Maesteg about Paul Marshall (Scrumhalve)

Yes I am in fact a creitin

Biltong wrote:I went for Kearney at 15
Earls and Trimble on the wings.

Any reason why you went for those two wings Biltong? I can't imagine they are the popular choices however I do believe that with Kidney at the helm that may be the selection

My mistake... Should know better with the amount of common surnames in the different Welsh squads over the years.

Both bloody good players though.

Standulstermen wrote:Kearney, Zebo and Gilroy for me. Running threats everywhere there and that in itself will keep defences honest enough to give the centres space. This only works if there is a valid threat in the centre (ergo Marshall over D'arcy)

Maestag

Paul marshall isn't selected. Luke Marshall could well be at 12

Bold=sense

If Earls or Darcy are in the centre then we need a more powerful player on one of the wings

They have experience, Earls still has a lot of pace, I saw him at centre a few times this year and don't think that is his position, McFadden in my view is too scared to tackle, Zebo I don't know too much about and haven't seen much of and Gilroy I Know nothing of.

Its a shame about Bowe as he would be a shoe in.

this is a poor showreel of Zebo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAdbntjEwB8

Doesn't really show his ability to beat guys or his solid basics

This is Gilroy and it shows him off a bit more as he is weaker at the basics but is so fast and elusive
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQpeP5wMLMs

Well Biltong Gilroy is much like Shane Williams, very quick feet, inventive, blistering ace and stronger than he looks, weak in defence at the minute though

Gilroy made his international debut this season eh?

Also I see he plays for Ulster, now that says it all, put him in the team man. If Pienaar endorses him, I am in.

Haha couldn't attest to it: he did make his debut against Argentina (the week after playing against Fiji which was uncapped he scored 3 tries in that and in the Summer against the BaaBaa's which was uncapped he scored 2 tries in that one I think) he scored a great try against the Pumas and was pretty electric all day

11. Zebo
14. Gilroy
15. Kearney

At the moment the first name has to be Zebo. He has been fantastic for club and country this season and seems well-equipped for international rugby. Good under the high ball and an huge left boot compliment his undoubted pace. However some questions still remain about his defensive positioning.

Gilroy is exactly what Kidney-led Ireland have been missing - excitement. He could prove to be a real weapon for Ireland and he's not fared too badly on the inernational scene so far . Such an elusive runner and with the right players around him I honestly believe he has the potential to be player of the 6N. On the other hand, he doesn't have the all-round skillset of perhaps Zebo or Kearney. Unfortunately he is still a bit of a gamble as he is yet to feature in a tough, competitive contest for Ireland - still, at only 21 he is surely a risk worth taking.

Rob Kearney is undoubtedly a fantastically accomplished player. His performances in the Heino with Leinster were phenomenal and was streets ahead of any other Irish player in the 6N - some even touted him as the best full back in the world. Since his 2011 injury I think he has added another dimension to his game - IMO possibly the best Irish player since the BOD/POC generation. In 2011/12 his running, kicking, awareness, passing were magnificent - there is no need to mention his bomb-disposal capabilities. But is it a good idea to allow any player to walk straight back in to the team?

McFadden is in good form but I'm not convinced he is international class - same goes for Trimble (and with 49 caps I feel the latter has been given enough chances).
I've always felt Earls has been underrated but his performances in a green shirt in 2012 were probably not enough to justify a spot in the team.

theslosty-
Was going to say welcome to 606 as I've not seen you and the 69 posts but see you have been around since May, anyways howdy!

Good points on all. Kearney does have to go and prove he is still good enough to warrant a place and that has to start as of tomorrow night. I think he will show us that class is permanent.

If he did not I would start Zebo at 15 then I guess put McFadden on the wing (he is playing wing and playing well)

Fitzgerald may have something to say in this matter also.

Finally, I do not rate Earls that highly myself for many reasons you may or may not have seen on these boards but I do feel for him in that he is now playing in the position he has been publicly asking to play in which could now see him out of the team.

He hasn't played wing or 15 in quite a while and the 13 jersey will more than likely be occupied and while he could get he 12 I would imagine Kidney will go for safety in Darcy or if he takes a gamble will go Marshall.

That leaves Earls out of luck as other players around him take advantage of the spot he left on the wing, that he did not want on the wing. Furthermore if BOD retires after the Lions Earls may well have to deal with another pretender from the North: Jared Payne who may play 15 or 13. Kearney is a World Class player at 15, Kieth Earls is not a World Class player in any position and Payne may swoop as BOD retires.....leaving Earls potentially in the cold

I'm not really aware of what his best position is but I'd like to see Fitz at 12 until Marshall develops - but isn't it strange to think young Luke was a Lion test starter in '09? It's been a rather unfortunate three years for him.

Doesn't Payne have to wait til 2014 until he qualifies? For obvious reasons I hope there are some alternatives for the 13 jersey but then who wouldn't have difficulty replacing BOD?

Personally I'd still have Earls as first reserve after those three - often felt he didn't get the credit he deserved.

Yeah fingers crossed Luke really gets a good few years under his belt injury free, he deserves it. He could end up replacing BOD or Darcy easily enough unless an NIQ player comes in

Fitz is behind Marshall, D'arcy, Wallace, McFadden and paddy in the pecking order for 12.

I'm not certain what Marshall needs to develop now that won't be gained at international level. For me there is no point in putting an interim player in place and taking valuable gametime away from the next generation.

Henderson has to feature in the 6N squad too for me. I believe he will be the best player to come through since the so-called 'golden generation' and given a bit of luck I think he could even eclipse O'Connell (and no one holds him in higher regard than me).

We have the potential to have a truly great young team but we have to learn to have leaders all over the park and not rely as heavily on individuals as we have in the last ten years.

Kilcoyne/Mcallister
Sherry
Henderson
O'Mahoney
Marmion
Jackson, madigan, hanrahan
Henshaw
Farrell
Marshall
Gilroy
Zebo

All these young guys (with the exception of Farrell and JJ) have notable heineken cup experience and are all well under 25. How the next stage of their development goes will determine how successful Ireland are but the early signs are really promising.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Yeah fingers crossed Luke really gets a good few years under his belt injury free, he deserves it. He could end up replacing BOD or Darcy easily enough unless an NIQ player comes in

Just to note, I didn't specify but I meant at Leinster

Standulstermen wrote:Fitz is behind Marshall, D'arcy, Wallace, McFadden and paddy in the pecking order for 12.

I'm not certain what Marshall needs to develop now that won't be gained at international level. For me there is no point in putting an interim player in place and taking valuable gametime away from the next generation.

Henderson has to feature in the 6N squad too for me. I believe he will be the best player to come through since the so-called 'golden generation' and given a bit of luck I think he could even eclipse O'Connell (and no one holds him in higher regard than me).

We have the potential to have a truly great young team but we have to learn to have leaders all over the park and not rely as heavily on individuals as we have in the last ten years.

Kilcoyne/Mcallister
Sherry
Henderson
O'Mahoney
Marmion
Jackson, madigan, hanrahan
Henshaw
Farrell
Marshall
Gilroy
Zebo

All these young guys (with the exception of Farrell and JJ) have notable heineken cup experience and are all well under 25. How the next stage of their development goes will determine how successful Ireland are but the early signs are really promising.

Not sure if kilcoyne can top Healy. Healy is the closest thing we have to a player who would break in to a world XV that is how good he is no one else other than Kearney and sexton is even close really.
I know that is obviously staring heavily in to a crystal ball in terms of form, injuries etc but Healy could well end up being the most capped player in Ireland/the world if parise doesn't continue being an absolute freak!

Must confess to having seen little of Farrell.

I agree with you on Henderson he could end up being a pillar of our pack along with healy

Ps: who'd u vote for stand?

I went for the three I picked in the ulster thread Pete.

Healy is of course standout and won't be shifting easily. I was just running through names. I could also mention jack McGrath or furlong at Leinster but they haven't seen massive gametime yet.

The only glaring weakness I see is tight head and potentially 2nd row. In terms of backs

Marmion
JJ, jackson, madigan
Gilroy
Marshall
Farrell
Zebo
Henshaw

Is a tasty looking back line and I'm not even throwing in the likes of layden, griffin, Conway, McSharry.

The young talent is coming through and the next Irish coach (and the IRFU moreso) needs to prioritise making sure these guys don't fall by the wayside.

If Deccie Fitzpatrick can get fit he can see us through the next few years as hes 29 until the like so Bent etc get the experiance or new options come through but I agree right now it is a weakness. I think it's good we are exposing young player at Heineken level so they need to take that step into the International scene if Luke Marshall plays Ulster's next 2 Heineken Cup games then he should probably start for Ireland now is time to really blood him when you have the experiance and solidity of O'Driscoll beside him because lets face it he wont be around Internationally much longer so it's time to use him while we still have him

Hmmm tricky one.

On form I'd be tempted to go

11. Zebo
14. Trimble
15. Kearney*

22. McFadden

I'd be really excited to see the following back 3 though:

11. Zebo
14. Gilroy
15. Kearney

22. McFadden/ Trimble

Heading into the next RWC I see that being our back 3, not writing Bowe, Trimble or Fitzgerald off yet though.

There's a few exciting combinations there, even without Bowe, so I'm happyish with whatever combination we pick.It's the midfield and half back combination that is the key, otherwise it won't matter who the back 3 are.

* I'm assuming Kearney will be nailed on at 15 if fit.

I went Kearney at full back with earls and McFadden on wings. I think Ireland could do well this 6 nations

We say that every year - in fact the year we didn't have particularly high hopes we did win the GS.

rodders wrote:Hmmm tricky one.

On form I'd be tempted to go

11. Zebo
14. Trimble
15. Kearney*

22. McFadden

I'd be really excited to see the following back 3 though:

11. Zebo
14. Gilroy
15. Kearney

22. McFadden/ Trimble

Heading into the next RWC I see that being our back 3, not writing Bowe, Trimble or Fitzgerald off yet though.

There's a few exciting combinations there, even without Bowe, so I'm happyish with whatever combination we pick.It's the midfield and half back combination that is the key, otherwise it won't matter who the back 3 are.

* I'm assuming Kearney will be nailed on at 15 if fit.

Agree with everything you say there rodders - Gilroy certainly is an exciting option but surely he needs to find some form with his province before earning a spot in the national team.

It's also true however that the half-back and centre partnership are really the key - Murray appears to have pulled the finger out and we'd all love Sexton to really set this team alight like he has done for years at Leinster. Can't say I've seen a lot of Marshall but it looks like Paddy's time is finally up over here but another option is Fitz at inside - tbh I'm not really aware of his best position but he was playing well before the neck injury.
Of course we all wish BOD a fitting swansong and can at least make that plane to Australia.

Luke Marshall is really impressing this year. If he can stay fit and keep his form going then he could be a real square peg in a square peg for Ireland. This is his first real sustained run for Ulster at senior level so don't want too put to much pressure on him...but for me he looks the complete package at 12 right now....

Gilroy will get a good run now with Bowe out and if he can rekindle his AI form he could light up the 6N alongside Zebo. Trimble and McFadden are the men in prime from just now though imo.

bsando wrote:I went Kearney at full back with earls and McFadden on wings. I think Ireland could do well this 6 nations

Interesting call not many have gone for earls and McFadden indeed many wouldn't even have them as bench options why would you go for those 2?

BTW in the end I voted Kearney, Gilroy and Zebo... fiec it, fortune favours the brave

rodders wrote:Luke Marshall is really impressing this year. If he can stay fit and keep his form going then he could be a real square peg in a square peg for Ireland. This is his first real sustained run for Ulster at senior level so don't want too put to much pressure on him...but for me he looks the complete package at 12 right now....

Gilroy will get a good run now with Bowe out and if he can rekindle his AI form he could light up the 6N alongside Zebo. Trimble and McFadden are the men in prime from just now though imo.

That's a pretty tricky task you've set Marshall there rodders!

On a serious note I agree that a Marshall/BOD partnership could serve Ireland very well in the 6N. It's such a shame about Ireland's injuries at the moment as at full strength you've got a side that could play some very attractive rugby.

1.Healy 2.Best 3.Ross 4.Ryan 5.POC 6.Ferris 7.SOB 8.Heaslip 9.Murray 10.Sexton 11.Gilroy/Zebo 12.Marshall 13.BOD 14.Bowe 15.Kearney

Alas that is the curse of the current schedule. As much rugby as possible compromising on player welfare and therefore the quality of the rugby that is played.

There was plenty of discussion on this after the Argie game but I guess it is more appropriate now.

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Ross
4. DOC/McCarthy
5. Ryan
6. SOB
7. POM
8. Heaslip

9. Murray
10. Sexton (C)

11. Zebo
12. Marshall/Fitz
13. BOD
14. Gilroy
15. Kearney

Whilst that backline is exciting almost every player has an asterisk above their name - either returning from injury or establishing starting place at their province, or both.

Hopefully Bent can continue on promise as Ross to be honest is a fairly average player.

The reason this article was started was because we didn't know where earls would fit in to this team: does anyone have an opinion on that?

He is quick and getting regular game time at 13, can he break in to the 23 though? Or rather, should he?

king_carlos wrote:

rodders wrote:Luke Marshall is really impressing this year. If he can stay fit and keep his form going then he could be a real square peg in a square peg for Ireland. This is his first real sustained run for Ulster at senior level so don't want too put to much pressure on him...but for me he looks the complete package at 12 right now....

Gilroy will get a good run now with Bowe out and if he can rekindle his AI form he could light up the 6N alongside Zebo. Trimble and McFadden are the men in prime from just now though imo.

That's a pretty tricky task you've set Marshall there rodders!

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:The reason this article was started was because we didn't know where earls would fit in to this team: does anyone have an opinion on that?

He is quick and getting regular game time at 13, can he break in to the 23 though? Or rather, should he?

Well yeah if he's playing well enough then he gets the 13 shirt otherwise he doesn't. There are other guys playing well on the wing, he's a 13 now (at his own behest) so he's either the best option there or he isn't. Haven't seen enough of him this year to say if he is or isn't but I imagine he'll be thereabouts if the great man is out.

rodders wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:The reason this article was started was because we didn't know where earls would fit in to this team: does anyone have an opinion on that?

He is quick and getting regular game time at 13, can he break in to the 23 though? Or rather, should he?

Well yeah if he's playing well enough then he gets the 13 shirt otherwise he doesn't. There are other guys playing well on the wing, he's a 13 now (at his own behest) so he's either the best option there or he isn't. Haven't seen enough of him this year to say if he is or isn't but I imagine he'll be thereabouts if the great man is out.

+1 I haven't seen much of him this season but with Zebo, Gilroy, Trimble and McFadden on the wings I'd expect him to be seen as a centre in the Ireland squad now. If BOD was out Earls would be next in line I'd expect.

He has been injured a few times this year, I personally don't rate him as a centre and if BOD comes back the way we know he can add to the fact he is captain he should start. Maybe Earls will get the 12 jersey but BOD-Earls never really worked apart from that one game against Wales. Darcy is the owner of the 12 shirt and Luke Marshall is the guy in form.

Can he get a spot on the bench? Right now the voting says the back 3 will be
Zebo-Kearney-Gilroy
Can Earls beat Fitzgerald, McFadden and Trimble to the final spot in the 23 man squad.

Trimble is limited due to his lack of versatility compared to the others. Fitzgerald will be doing well to get in to the Leinster HCup team let alone the Irish team. McFadden has been in outstanding form on the wing for Leinster.

McFadden vs Earls for the 23 shirt???

king_carlos wrote:

rodders wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:The reason this article was started was because we didn't know where earls would fit in to this team: does anyone have an opinion on that?

He is quick and getting regular game time at 13, can he break in to the 23 though? Or rather, should he?

Well yeah if he's playing well enough then he gets the 13 shirt otherwise he doesn't. There are other guys playing well on the wing, he's a 13 now (at his own behest) so he's either the best option there or he isn't. Haven't seen enough of him this year to say if he is or isn't but I imagine he'll be thereabouts if the great man is out.

+1 I haven't seen much of him this season but with Zebo, Gilroy, Trimble and McFadden on the wings I'd expect him to be seen as a centre in the Ireland squad now. If BOD was out Earls would be next in line I'd expect.

I agree that if BOD was out Earls would get the 13 shirt, Cave hasn't looked as good as he has before and Bowe is injured, while McFadden is playing entirely on the wing.

OK lets just assume that BOD and Kearney will start if fit. That's a no brainer for me so we have:

15 . Kearney
14.
13. BOD
12.
11.

That leaves 3 spots to play for, plus one on the bench.

For me you have 4 international quality wings there: Trimble, McFadden, Zebo and Gilroy. Two from Four take your pick.

At 12 you have Luke Marshall, Gordon D'arcy, James Downey and Paddy Wallace playing regularly at provincial level. Two old stagers in good form, a limited but decent journeyman and a young up and coming tyro. I know who I'd pick....

So for me logic says:

15. Kearney
14. Gilroy
13. O'Driscoll
12. Marshall
11. Zebo

23. McFadden/Earls

A very exciting looking backline if I say so myself, with a mixture of youth, experience, pace and power. Simple

rodders wrote:OK lets just assume that BOD and Kearney will start if fit. That's a no brainer for me so we have:

15 . Kearney
14.
13. BOD
12.
11.

That leaves 3 spots to play for, plus one on the bench.

For me you have 4 international quality wings there: Trimble, McFadden, Zebo and Gilroy. Two from Four take your pick.

At 12 you have Luke Marshall, Gordon D'arcy, James Downey and Paddy Wallace playing regularly at provincial level. Two old stagers in good form, a limited but decent journeyman and a young up and coming tyro. I know who I'd pick....

So for me logic says:

15. Kearney
14. Gilroy
13. O'Driscoll
12. Marshall
11. Zebo

23. McFadden/Earls

A very exciting looking backline if I say so myself, with a mixture of youth, experience, pace and power. Simple

You wouldn't consider pairing O'Driscoll and Earls together then no?

I'd consider it Pete...I just wouldn't do it ..... ....

I don't see why we would because we have players playing well at 12. There's no reason to shuffle people around.

It's a straight choice between Cave, Earls and O'Driscoll(if fit) at 13... realistically it will be BOD or Earls, although D'arcy has played a few at 13 this season.

I don't think I would be considering Fitzgerald at this stage for anywhere with the competition in our team. He hasn't played in how long? At least a couple of years, he still hasn't even come back to Leinster so I just don't think we should even be considering him until after the end of the season if he makes it back that is I keep hearing he is coming back every week and he doesn't. I certainly wouldn't be considering him at 12 when most of his rugby was on wing and we have Luke Marshall playing well, paddy playing well and even Downey playing well, ultimately I reckon Kidney will pick D'Arcy so long as he is in charge he can be fairly resistant to change even when he changes players he tends to play the same way as before and not adapt to the team they face or the players he plays.