Hendre Fourie facing deportation

It's a shame when any player has to retire through injury.... even if they're at the senior end of their career.

However, the BBC are reporting that Fourie is now likely to be deported back to S.A.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20932047


The article quotes Fourie as saying that he can't currently get a passport, and that he was here on a Sports Visa.


I'd always assumed that the residency rule was in place because after that time a person was officially a British citizen.
I'd therefore also assumed that Fourie and any of the other residency players in the England team had British passports.

This would suggest that although the sport sees him as a British citizen, the Country (and presumably therefore Europe) doesn't.


I'm sure this will raise even more issues with residency rulings.

Very strange if true. Pretty laughable that it's so difficult to deport a terrorist like Abu Qatada but a rugby player who has represented England is an easy target.

Political correctness gone mad.

I actually think this is really sad for him. I too don't understand how the residency rule is not working in this sort of situation?

I think he makes some incredibly pertitnent points regarding deportation and the types of people being deported.

Very sad that he's represented our country and is now being tossed aside.

Where are the human rights lawyers in this type of situation?

What a joke, effing beauocrats never have any common sense

beshocked wrote:Very strange if true. Pretty laughable that it's so difficult to deport a terrorist like Abu Qatada but a rugby player who has represented England is an easy target.

Political correctness gone mad.

I couldnt agree with this anymore than I do.

W@nkers. That is all (the bureaucrats, not you guys!).

Cripes.

You're welcome while you're playing top-level rugby and representing our nation.

Oh, you're injured and have to retire? Get on the plane!

If this happens it's a blooming travesty

What a joke.

A terrorist can't be deported but someone who has represented a UK country and was looking to become a teacher is removed.

The world is mad.

Sounds like Hendre has already made up his mind not to appeal.
Too much red tape and stress associated with it!

So, he could have appealed if he wanted too - and hopefully he would have been successful.
But, still - its a rubbish position to have been put in.

This makes my blood boil. I had no idea any of this was going on and I'm surprised, dismayed and angry that it is. Why aren't the RFU or any of the more influential people he has established relationships with intervening. I cannot believe that there aren't options available. This is totally wrong and unacceptable on every level. Is it worth or elligible for a .gov petition?

To be fair to Fourie, the fact that they want him out of the country and he has to appeal to stay probably made his mind up for him.

propdavid_london wrote:Sounds like Hendre has already made up his mind not to appeal.
Too much red tape and stress associated with it!

So, he could have appealed if he wanted too - and hopefully he would have been successful.
But, still - its a rubbish position to have been put in.

The appeal process is really expensive and complicated (I'm currently writing a character reference for a friend who's got an appeal hearing coming up soon) so I can understand why you'd want to avoid it. I got my UK residency approved last month, and while it ultimately ran smoothly, the paperwork is fiendishly complicated and I didn't much enjoy the stress levels involved even without having to worry about an appeal.

Basically the immigration processes in the UK have been battered by years as a political football plus budget cuts overlaying a massively complicated bureaucracy.

What would have happened if he had not been injured and had helped England to a world cup win, and thus received an MBE or CBE or similar? Would he have received one and then been deported?! Or just not received one?!

Didnt Leicester Tigers get involved when it looked like Manu Tuilagi was going to be deported?

Perhaps Sale are a bt busy at the moment and dont have time to assist Fourie.
You'd have thought they could do with him on the coaching staff for at least the time it takes for him to train as a teacher!
But I guess as he hadnt been with them for long that there isnt much loyalty there.
He'd be better off applying for a coaching position with Leeds.

I'd like to think he's been getting support from Sales, Leeds, Rotheram PRL/RFU etc.

But, yeah it sounds like he's (rightly) cheesed off with all the hassle and has made his mind up.

This was my point on another thread,

Its the 3 year residency rule, in rugby you can play for the national side, but not qualify for Citzenship for that country, which it ridicilous.

Strauss for Ireland is another, he is qualifed to play for Ireland, but isn't an Irish citizen, cannot apply for a passport etc etc.

In football it is a 5 year residency rule as this is how long it takes them to qualify for citzenship.

Not sure why Fourie needed 10 years to get a UK passport but footballers only five (he must have returnred to SA for over 3 months or something in the middle).

For me the IRB need to change the 3 year residency rule, to having citzenship in the counrty you represent. (if Strauss got injuried and had to retire he could be deported from Ireland as well ) its a silly situtation.

Making the residency match getting Citizenship will stop this, it will also end the project players to an extent as well.

If Fourie was never capped for England then we wouldn't have an issue with his deportation, as his Visa was a sports one he can't use anymore. IMO he should never have been capped by England untill he was a UK citizen (not the RFU's fault, I blame IRB for allowing this situtation to araise).

Does anyone know how many players in the current England setup don't have British Passports?

The same sort of thing happened to Duncan Fletcher when he was England Cricket Coach. Despite the fact he'd lived here for 10+ years, I think it took an intevention from the PM to give him a passport! Just after he'd won the ashes I think!

Comfort wrote:

beshocked wrote:Very strange if true. Pretty laughable that it's so difficult to deport a terrorist like Abu Qatada but a rugby player who has represented England is an easy target.

Political correctness gone mad.

I couldnt agree with this anymore than I do.

+2 - yeah, it's nuts.

It's all a bit much, it really is. He was our guest at Headingley on Sunday and addressed the crowd at half time. Geech presented him with a Carnegie no.7 shirt with 'Shrek' on it. He's one of ours and will always be so. I can't tell you how much this whole business offends me.

You can can apply for a UK passport after living here for the past eight years, or other articles I find say you can get citizenship if he chose to apply, having been a resident for the statutory five years required by law

So any player that has qualified on the 3 year rule but not been here for 8 years falls into this group.

For me the residency rule should be changed to match citizenship, and be 5 to 8 years whichever one it is, and only once a citizen can you play for the national team.

The "terrorists" can't be dpoerted on human rights grounds

Can he claim that he will be victimised by the SARU as a result of playing for another country and as a result he will be face abuse from the general public as a pomie etc.

It is stupid though. You would wonder if he got anyone high up to do his reference. Surely some idiot saw player for england in rugby and thought "this one is an important one"

Surely there are also some rugby people in cabinent now that the socailists aren't there

Oh for crying out loud people, I doubt he spent his childhood dreaming of playing for or living in England. Playing internationally is just a career move these days - he's had a bite of a cherry that most can only dream of &, oh dear, he has to take the next step in his home country, doubt he's going to be too badly off taking the Sterling he's been paid home with him.

How many passports would need to be handed out if every sport had easy-to-qualify-residency rules as rugby does with citizenship on qualification? Should the govt be forced to hand out passports if the England Kabbadi Federation decides that having been in the country for a month qualifies one to play Kabbadi for England?

Terrorists stay due to a manipulation of the law whereby they claim they cannot return to their country due to the chance of not getting a fair trial. cowpat mostly, but that's the reason, unless he can claim he would unfairly treated in SA then no, of course he won't be allowed to stay.

Its the same thing people whinge about all the time, the fact is, he has no visa. He the option to appeal and the option of getting his citizenship 3 years ago and he chose neither, this is all his fault. The rules haven't changed as far as I know. It's from laziness or lack of conviction in wanting to stay that are the reasons he may be deported. We shouldn't be making alterations for him just because he ran with a ball a few times, if anything we should be asking 'why was he allowed to play for the national side despite not being a citizen of the country?'

It sucks for his family, I agree, but you can't blame the rules that have been in place all this time.

All he has to do is claim he'll be tortured as a traitor if hes forced to return to SA. They have quite a history of political brutality and as we all know are a nation of thugs

Are any of his children born here - wouldn't that give him the right to stay ? Alternatively couldn't Leeds or someone else take him on as a player/coach for the next two years to let him build up the "credit".

Of course not the first time our immagration service has got it wrong, Spike Milligan was refused a British passport on the grounds that he was born in India and ended up with an Irish one - the Irish at the time happy to take him on the basis that his name was "Milligan".

you might be onto something PSW
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/02/white-south-african-claiming-racist-persecution-granted-asylum-in-canada/

Bathite wrote:The same sort of thing happened to Duncan Fletcher when he was England Cricket Coach. Despite the fact he'd lived here for 10+ years, I think it took an intevention from the PM to give him a passport! Just after he'd won the ashes I think!

I think that the problem here was that he was away from the country for about 4 months a year so immigration said that he wasn't a resident. It was pointed out that he was actually representing England, etc. but this held no water.

It is sad for Fourie. Whether or not you think that he came over just to further his career or not he came here, paid loads of taxes and planned to stay and become a teacher. Terrorists, etc., come on in and cost us money. Pay taxes and contribute to society, sod off!

twoeightnine wrote:

Bathite wrote:The same sort of thing happened to Duncan Fletcher when he was England Cricket Coach. Despite the fact he'd lived here for 10+ years, I think it took an intevention from the PM to give him a passport! Just after he'd won the ashes I think!

I think that the problem here was that he was away from the country for about 4 months a year so immigration said that he wasn't a resident. It was pointed out that he was actually representing England, etc. but this held no water.

It is sad for Fourie. Whether or not you think that he came over just to further his career or not he came here, paid loads of taxes and planned to stay and become a teacher. Terrorists, etc., come on in and cost us money. Pay taxes and contribute to society, sod off!

I'm a little surpised, I thought "business travel" could be discounted (I didn't look into it too hard for my application as I had 130-odd days outside the UK and you're allowed 180 in 5 years). My friend who's appealing his refusal was declined because while he had only had 120 or so days out, 98 of them happened in one single trip - and there's a rule on no trips over 90 days.

It is a bit ridiculous that a prop who has played for England is treated less favorably than a terrorist.

Now, if he was a backrower....

Seriously though, it is a nonsense but the bit which needs to change most is the very short time required to qualify to play for another nation. You really shouldn't expect governments to change their immigration policy to suit rugby players.

My confusion and dismay in this is not to do with visa regs or wanting them to be applied differently, it's to do with him being a person wanting to contribute to this country by training and becoming a teacher and not being able to find a mechanism that would allow it. There is quite a good 'outreach' programme at Leeds and I would have thought he could have been offered some sort role in that area, visiting schools etc as an ambassador for the club and rugby in general. The little I know about the working visa regs I thought that employer sponsorship was fairly high scoring and could perhaps have bridged the gap whilst seeking leave to study. For this to follow so swiftly on his retirement from the game I assume he has been in the process of changing his visa status for a while as it seems to take forever normally for visa applications to be processed.

MrsP wrote:Seriously though, it is a nonsense but the bit which needs to change most is the very short time required to qualify to play for another nation. You really shouldn't expect governments to change their immigration policy to suit rugby players.

+1 - tis common sense after all. if the guy cant get a british passport, how can he represents one of the home unions? that said am pretty sure that we still have similar nonsense in France where its even more complicate to get a local passport (through only residency). for instance Tony Marsh never had a french passport and played for France after living and working 3 years in France. I think it is the IRB that dictate those rules but might be wrong?

Whocares, you are right, its the IRB who's set the 3 year residency for international rugby, but usually the country will want 5 years upwards of consistent residency before you can apply for a citizenship.

It does seem strange you can represent a country but not legally be seen as a citizen of that country.

I presume he was in the UK under the Tier 2 Skilled Worker (sports) category. http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/visas-immigration/working/tier2/sportsperson/settlement/

You must meet all the requirements of the Immigration Rules at the time when you apply for settlement.

...
Current requirements for settlement
At present, you cannot apply for settlement until you have been in the UK for a continuous period of 5 years in an eligible immigration category.

During the continuous residence period, you cannot be outside the UK for more than 180 days in any 12 consecutive months. The absences must be for a reason that relates to the purpose of your leave in the UK, or for a serious compelling reason (such as a serious illness). Your sponsor must confirm the reason for the absence if it was related to your work. You must do so for a serious or compelling reason.

Reading that, I can only assume he left it too late to apply for residency - you have to prove you still qualify under the category you've been in the country on. Which he no longer did once Sale ended his contract


As an aside, he'd have been applying using the same form I did. Ouch http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/applicationforms/settlement/forseto04091.pdf

With the Fourie case, it seams silly he didn't apply for it before.

But I'm strongly against the 3 year residency set by the IRB, it should match the nations laws and only citizens can play for national team, other wise you get cases like this.

Does anyone know why the IRB made it 3 years?

Is it something to do with its 3 years to become a New Zealand/Pacific Island/Aus/SA/ARG citizen and they just made it uniform across the board to stop one nation having an advantage?

Kingshu wrote:With the Fourie case, it seams silly he didn't apply for it before.

But I'm strongly against the 3 year residency set by the IRB, it should match the nations laws and only citizens can play for national team, other wise you get cases like this.

Does anyone know why the IRB made it 3 years?

Is it something to do with its 3 years to become a New Zealand/Pacific Island/Aus/SA/ARG citizen and they just made it uniform across the board to stop one nation having an advantage?

You can't become an NZ citizen in 3 years - the NZ, Aus and UK immigration rules are quite similar.

Even maybe Japan?

Don't know if somewhere like Japan would have a 3 year sports residency to boost their football and rugby sides?

just guessing why the IRB would have made it 3 years, and other sports insist on citzenship? (even thats not enough, for home nation football teams, the granny rule would still be needed).

Kingshu wrote:Even maybe Japan?

Don't know if somewhere like Japan would have a 3 year sports residency to boost their football and rugby sides?

just guessing why the IRB would have made it 3 years, and other sports insist on citzenship? (even thats not enough, for home nation football teams, the granny rule would still be needed).

Japan and Switzerland are probably the 2 hardest countries in the world to get citizenship of. I have a Kiwi* mate who's married to a Japanese woman. On his kids' Japanese passports they're listed as father <unknown> and given their Japanese grandfather's surname because he's not Japanese.

I suspect the 3 year rule seemed sensible at the time it came in, given that it replaced a system where unions defined their own eligibility. Which lead to situations loke where Jamie Salman switched between NZ and England, Frank Bunce (who's parents are from Nuie) playing for Samoa with no connection whatsoever, the Bachop brothers playing for Samoa, NZ and Japan, and Colin Charvis turning out for Wales on a few months' residency.

Makes a joke of the fact that you can represent a country whilst not being a citizen with voting rights and then gets thrown out of the country once you retire.


I hope this is a lesson to the South African boys who move over there to play professional rugby.

If I recall the UK still has highly skilled visas.

I.e. those with Accountancy qualifications

now I'm sure their are tens of thousands of people who have came to the UK with their ACA equivalent qualification and taken that highly skilled visa. From that they can get PR in 5 years.

Why then a sportsman who is say one of the very best in the country, say top 100 in the land not deemed highly skilled?? He's been in top flight rugby since 2006 right with leeds and then Sale???

The UK visa situation is a joke anyhow. My buddy got a tourism BComm from a SA polytechnic (one of the worst uni's in SA) and with that alone got a highly skilled visa.... it cost his family 100K rand and he ended up working as a brickie in the UK.

If you got enough money their is always ways of getting around things.

He's hopefully saved enough money in the UK to live comfortably in SA for a long time anyhow. Probably not enough to buy a winefarm mind.

fa0019 wrote:If I recall the UK still has highly skilled visas.

I.e. those with Accountancy qualifications

now I'm sure their are tens of thousands of people who have came to the UK with their ACA equivalent qualification and taken that highly skilled visa. From that they can get PR in 5 years.

Why then a sportsman who is say one of the very best in the country, say top 100 in the land not deemed highly skilled?? He's been in top flight rugby since 2006 right with leeds and then Sale???

The UK visa situation is a joke anyhow. My buddy got a tourism BComm from a SA polytechnic (one of the worst uni's in SA) and with that alone got a highly skilled visa.... it cost his family 100K rand and he ended up working as a brickie in the UK.

If you got enough money their is always ways of getting around things.

He's hopefully saved enough money in the UK to live comfortably in SA for a long time anyhow. Probably not enough to buy a winefarm mind.

I did my 5 years on a Highly Skilled visa . Once you were in, as long as you earned over £35k per year you were pretty much sorted. However they closed that route off last year, instead there's 1000 places available to "exceptional talents", or you can come in under the entrereneur/investor (aka "I have access to lots and lots of money") categories.

Fifa use to have if you quailified for a passport you could play for the country.

"Great we should bring that in"

Only problem some countries (think it was in the middle east) gave out passports to good soccer players to make the team better. It was more or less come declare your love and get a passport. Remember Sadaim's brother had an Irish passport.

As has been discussed each of the coutriesw have different rules and lets be fair I am sure with the Dubai sevens that the UAE could have a great national team as they would only need UAE passports and not have to play in the country. I am sure for the right price the 4 and 6 nations would fight to get them in the competition with the money they would add.

Yes three years is to little but at least its the same for everyone and not up to each county to choose.

Well poor lad, tossed out like a used tea bag.
I can't see how this is fair on him and his family.

Goes to show how little an England cap is worth these days.

Fourie has walked into a political problem. The government wants to demonstrate it is being tough on immigration but has no power to regulate EU movement. Consequently, they have tightened up on areas they can move on. Unfortunately these include wives, relatives, students and employees from outside the EU. A few years ago, Fourie probably wouldn't have faced any difficulty staying on.

It does sound as if he could have played his hand a bit better, though. Perhaps he just assumed it would all work out rather than taking advice on how to secure his status. I suppose it's possible that going public might open up a few more options.

Did he apply for citizenship, did he pay UK taxes, did he pay NI?, did he pay for hospital treatment for the birth of his son If the answer is no then, goodbye, why should he take a job from a UK citizen or pay out benefits, he was in this Country to play a game which he was well paid. If he did pay his dues he should appeal but he probably does not have a case.

Its the same as any other job. If anyone else was on a similar visa and quit/retired from their job then they to would be deported. He had options and he didn't use them.

Thems the breaks

glamorganalun wrote:Did he apply for citizenship, did he pay UK taxes, did he pay NI?, did he pay for hospital treatment for the birth of his son If the answer is no then, goodbye, why should he take a job from a UK citizen or pay out benefits, he was in this Country to play a game which he was well paid. If he did pay his dues he should appeal but he probably does not have a case.

He'd have paid taxes and NI, and wouldn't have been able to claim benefits. Last time I looked childbirth was on the Nhs so covered by NI, though he may well have had private medical too.

Based on the Times write up (which i wish i'd read before making lots of guesses on this thread today) he arrived in the country on a working holiday visa (same as I did) then switched to a study visa when he started teacher training. Once Leeds signed him in 2010 he switched to highly skilled (tier 1) and then he went to tier 2 when he moved to Sale. But he only had 3 years time served at tier1 or 2 when he retired so isn't eligible for residency (which requires 5 years, and working hol/student visas don't count).

He's basically decided the stress involved in doing the paperwork for a visa to work as a teacher isn't worth the hassle and opted to go home - having gone through 4 rounds of visa applications/renewals in the bureaucratic morass that is UKBA over the years myself I can't say I blame him.

If you pick a player to represent your country who is not a national these things will happen, same will likely happen to Waldrom, Botha and possibly Tuilagi.

maestegmafia wrote:If you pick a player to represent your country who is not a national these things will happen, same will likely happen to Waldrom, Botha and possibly Tuilagi.

Or you could pick players that aren't actually eligible to play like Wales have done several times. Why are you using this to score points?