Hendre Fourie facing deportation

First topic message reminder :

It's a shame when any player has to retire through injury.... even if they're at the senior end of their career.

However, the BBC are reporting that Fourie is now likely to be deported back to S.A.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20932047


The article quotes Fourie as saying that he can't currently get a passport, and that he was here on a Sports Visa.


I'd always assumed that the residency rule was in place because after that time a person was officially a British citizen.
I'd therefore also assumed that Fourie and any of the other residency players in the England team had British passports.

This would suggest that although the sport sees him as a British citizen, the Country (and presumably therefore Europe) doesn't.


I'm sure this will raise even more issues with residency rulings.

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:If you pick a player to represent your country who is not a national these things will happen, same will likely happen to Waldrom, Botha and possibly Tuilagi.

Or you could pick players that aren't actually eligible to play like Wales have done several times. Why are you using this to score points?

Name the SEVERAL players

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:If you pick a player to represent your country who is not a national these things will happen, same will likely happen to Waldrom, Botha and possibly Tuilagi.

Or you could pick players that aren't actually eligible to play like Wales have done several times. Why are you using this to score points?

Cyril, your comment holds no water and is irrelevant to this discussion. I am telling you to desist responding to Maesteg's posts.

Apart from that, I am not going to allow you to make this an Anglo Welsh bickering thread.

glamorganalun wrote:Did he apply for citizenship, did he pay UK taxes, did he pay NI?, did he pay for hospital treatment for the birth of his son If the answer is no then, goodbye, why should he take a job from a UK citizen or pay out benefits, he was in this Country to play a game which he was well paid. If he did pay his dues he should appeal but he probably does not have a case.

Do you honestly think he has been living here without paying tax or NI for around 10 years?

Daily Mail type comments don't really have any legal standing

Thanks for the background Kiwi, it's making more sense.

I think it's a shame, it's a complicated system had he been on the visa he was on when playing rugby from the time he got here he would have been eligible to be a citizen but because he was only on that one for like 3 years he isn't. The guy had paid taxes and everything though and wanted to be a teacher a person who would contribute to society so it's a real pity and I feel for the guy who has to retire through injury and then this happens. It does raise questions about the IRB rules though I mean should we really be thinking about capping players who potentially then would be told to leave, although the passport law the used to have in football also might not work for reasons other people have pointed out. It definitely needs to be looked at though especially with serious injuries in rugby becoming more common it's only a matter of time before this happens again. You would have thought someone at one of his clubs would have given him a job and got him visa to tide him over to he got sorted though, maybe we should just add in a once you cap them you must look after them thing.

It's a bit dramatic to describe his situation as "facing deportation". That raises an image of Fourie being banged up in a holding cell waiting to be bundled on the next flight out.

More prosaically, his visa status as a player didn't entitle him to permanent residency, where he would have been free to take on any other work (he only needed residency, not citizenship). Nor are his qualifications sufficient to get a new working visa for teaching. It's something he could, and perhaps should, have considered when ending his career. It's understandable that he may have had a lot of other things on his mind at the time.

If he'd taken some advice from an immigration lawyer, it would have been made clear to him that he fell short of requirements for another work permit but, with his ducks all lined up, he might have been able to make a successful application. Representing the country in international sport doesn't bring any automatic entitlements but it can be a useful card to play. It would have entailed getting the RFU onside and probably a local MP too. Perhaps that course of action is still open to him if he's interested.

Representing the country in international sport doesn't bring any automatic entitlements

That statement alone brings to the fore the questionability of the IRB qualification rules.

Biltong wrote:

Representing the country in international sport doesn't bring any automatic entitlements

That statement alone brings to the fore the questionability of the IRB qualification rules.

Or a fundamental review of what international representation is for. Originally it was simply the rugby system you played in (which is why the Exile teams where/are registered with their home unions). Transport may have been big factor in this.

There are important distinctions to be drawn between having residency ("leave to remain"), permanent residency ("indefinite leave to remain"), and citizenship (a passport).

Fourie had a working permit to play rugby, and that gave him residency. When he retired, as Kiwi Pete points out, that ended his Sale-sponsored work permit and he needs another work permit to maintain residence. He doesn't need to be granted permanent residency or citizenship to be a teacher. If he stays in the country long enough, though, he would be on track for one or the other.

I don't think everyone who represents Britain, or one of Britain's national teams, in international sport should automatically get permanent residency or citizenship. Foreign spouses - and even foreign parents - of British citizens aren't automatically entitled to either. These days, they may not even be granted simple residency if they don't have sufficient English language ability.

However, representing a national team might be something to take into account when Immigration decides whether to grant an alternative "leave to remain". If Fourie had lined up support beforehand for an application, then he might have found things moving more smoothly even though there is currently nothing formal about such a policy. Rugby is hardly short of friends in high places.

You can argue the toss about what eligibility rules rugby should have but some of the suggestions I've seen run into different kinds of problems. In particular, when you throw permanent residency and citizenship into the equation, the Home Unions are a major complication.

I don't think everyone who represents Britain, or one of Britain's national teams, in international sport should automatically get permanent residency or citizenship. Foreign spouses - and even foreign parents - of British citizens aren't automatically entitled to either. These days, they may not even be granted simple residency if they don't have sufficient English language ability.

There was a thread not so long ago in regards to players who pay taxes, contribute to society should be able to represent that country.

Now what you are saying is it is fine to do all those things but get no rights in that country.

This is not aimed at you, it is aimed at a system which clearly abuses immigration laws.

The point I am trying to make is in effect Fourie was a South African who represented England.

That in my view is wrong.

Imagine Jessica Ennis won a gold medal, but because she trained in SA, she represented SA, and therefor we got the gold medal and not the UK?

Doesn't make much sense does it?

Biltong wrote:

I don't think everyone who represents Britain, or one of Britain's national teams, in international sport should automatically get permanent residency or citizenship. Foreign spouses - and even foreign parents - of British citizens aren't automatically entitled to either. These days, they may not even be granted simple residency if they don't have sufficient English language ability.

There was a thread not so long ago in regards to players who pay taxes, contribute to society should be able to represent that country.

Now what you are saying is it is fine to do all those things but get no rights in that country.

This is not aimed at you, it is aimed at a system which clearly abuses immigration laws.

The point I am trying to make is in effect Fourie was a South African who represented England.

That in my view is wrong.

Imagine Jessica Ennis won a gold medal, but because she trained in SA, she represented SA, and therefor we got the gold medal and not the UK?

Doesn't make much sense does it?

Yeah, the whole thing is an utter Fluster Cuck to say the least. Needs looking at by the powers that be; bet it won't be though ....

Biltong wrote:...Now what you are saying is it is fine to do all those things but get no rights in that country...

That's not what I said at all. Even visitors, let alone resident non-citizens, have protection under the law in the UK.

Biltong wrote:Imagine Jessica Ennis won a gold medal, but because she trained in SA, she represented SA, and therefore we got the gold medal and not the UK?

She could only represent South Africa at the Olympics if she had a South African passport. Olympic qualification standards are different again. It's one reason many amateur sports which have, or aspire to, Olympic status, base international selection on IOC criteria. The British and Irish issue at the Olympics has been illustrated very recently in the case of Rory McIlroy, who is seriously considering skipping Rio in order to avoid making a choice which might offend.

Biltong wrote:

Imagine Jessica Ennis won a gold medal, but because she trained in SA, she represented SA, and therefor we got the gold medal and not the UK?

The difference is the element of choice. If Jess chose under those circumstances and was elligible to represent SA then it would be no more than dissappointing. Should she then seek more permanent residence in SA that would be a matter for the immigration service there to decide.

I think his representing England is a bit of a diversion in a way. The more important factor is that he has something to contribute should he be allowed to do so and nothing in his time in the UK suggests that he would be anything other than an asset. The immigration laws here are a mess and badly overseen. I am sure that on a daily basis poor decisions are made both ways.

Have to agree with Biltong on this. Its pretty crass

What is test rugby if you can recruit players from any country to represent you.... you might as well scrap test rugby and stick to club rugby.

Its about honour, my team, my countrymen are better than yours. Its not those who I've paid to play for my country are better then those you paid.

You can't dispose of sportsman once we've used them. Oh we're happy for you to win medals for MY (not OUR) country but now that your career has finished.... please close the door on the way out.

In the end he has been in the UK for 8 years, working and paying taxes. Probably more tax then the average person will take 25years to generate... and the government never had to spend a penny on his education/health etc before he went to the UK.

In essence, he has more than repaid his debt to the UK and thoroughly deserves his right to stay in the UK (if he wishes).

The Olympics has its own eligibility issues. Athletes can represent different countries in different Olympics. No rugby player can play in a World Cup for two different countries.

I have nothing against someone like Fourie being given more latitude to stay in the country, and he probably could have arranged his affairs better to bring about such an outcome. I don't think qualifying for a national team on a three year residency basis should automatically vault you to the front of the queue for permanent residency.

Is the three year rule out of order then for rugby? As an England supporter, I wouldn't miss it. I'd want to be sure, though, that alternative eligibility criteria made sense.

Rugby Fan wrote:The Olympics has its own eligibility issues. Athletes can represent different countries in different Olympics. No rugby player can play in a World Cup for two different countries.

I have nothing against someone like Fourie being given more latitude to stay in the country, and he probably could have arranged his affairs better to bring about such an outcome. I don't think qualifying for a national team on a three year residency basis should automatically vault you to the front of the queue for permanent residency.

Is the three year rule out of order then for rugby? As an England supporter, I wouldn't miss it. I'd want to be sure, though, that alternative eligibility criteria made sense.

What about Greame Bachop (NZ 91, NZ 95, Japan 99)

ScarletSpiderman wrote:What about Greame Bachop (NZ 91, NZ 95, Japan 99)

Not possible now. That was one of the loopholes the new rules closed.

RF - yeah I know. Just the Bachop brothers always spring to mind when I think of elidgability and nationality etc.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:RF - yeah I know. Just the Bachop brothers always spring to mind when I think of elidgability and nationality etc.

Injury in '94 possibly cost Stephen Bachop an NZ berth for RWC '95 - Andrew Mehrtens' call up might have been delayed a season.

The fact that G. Bachop was being paid to play rugby in Japan from 1992-1994 was probably more controversial (at the time) than him turning out for 2 nations - that was at least allowed under the rules then.

Em is part of the reason why aforementioned terorist cannot be deported is because a0 he is a British citizen, just one you don't like and b) the fact that his lawyers have demonstrated that he is very likely to be killed wherever he is sent.

Hendre Fourie is not a British citizen, merely had a working visa to perform a specific task, one that, through injury he can no longer perform. No don't get me wrong i have massive sympathy for fourie and you'd think some coaching role or bullshite admin role within the RFU could have been found for him as a debt of gratitude etc, but hey, the RFU aren't exactly the most sentimental of organisations at times.

and B) Fourie is highly unlikely to be executed when he arrives back in SA. Perhaps blanked in the street by one or two disgruntled fans but otherwise his life and liberty are not in any danger, i'd hope.

So compare like with like, not like with hysteria.

This is a digusting and vile betrayal. No other way to describe it. Thanks for getting broken on our behalf, but now you are broken and you are no longer any use to us, toodle f*@kin ooo Mr Fourie, off you go...

Its interesting England recently let another group of 'mercenaries' the gurka's have UK citizenship, perhaps he should enlist the services of Joanna lumley . Incidentally if this sets precendents do Andrew Strauss and any number of retired English cricketers have to get on the plane also? Makes you wonder how 'English' he was if he handnt applied for UK citizenship.

I thought it was already made clear he wasn't eligible because he originally started working towards being a teacher and then changed to rugby. He wasn't in rugby for long enough it seems.

Strauss has been here since he was 6 (not the 'Irish' one, who's been here for 3 years). Not really even close to this situation.

MotelMoneyMurderMadness wrote:This is a digusting and vile betrayal. No other way to describe it. Thanks for getting broken on our behalf, but now you are broken and you are no longer any use to us, toodle f*@kin ooo Mr Fourie, off you go...

How is it a betrayal? He played rugby (& was given the chance to play internationally by England, he wasn't good enough to play for his home country) and was paid to do so, people act as though he gave his life in a trench to defend Blighty.

HammerofThunor wrote:I thought it was already made clear he wasn't eligible because he originally started working towards being a teacher and then changed to rugby. He wasn't in rugby for long enough it seems.

News reported last night that he's had job offers flooding in for teaching posts since this whole mess was announced. If he takes one of those, especially at Wellington College, or sports oriented institution he'll be fine as many have political weight and money to throw around.

It's more the principle of seeing a home nations selected player facing deportation, when apprently we can't even drop kick a terrorist out of the UK on ground of Oomin rights and stuff! That is utterly Fubar in so many ways.

Presumably he wouldn't be deported permanently? If he wants to emigrate from SA to UK then he can apply through the official channels, same as anyone else?

What's the fuss about?

'UK Border Agency spokesman says it has not curtailed Hendre Fourie's visa and he is not required to leave the UK'

.... Better go find something else to get worked up over

lostinwales wrote:'UK Border Agency spokesman says it has not curtailed Hendre Fourie's visa and he is not required to leave the UK'

.... Better go find something else to get worked up over

Yep, sounds to me like he didn't even try to look at his options!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9789493/Former-England-international-Hendre-Fourie-told-he-can-stay-in-Britain-after-visa-reprieve.html

lostinwales wrote:'UK Border Agency spokesman says it has not curtailed Hendre Fourie's visa and he is not required to leave the UK'

.... Better go find something else to get worked up over

Maybe we can have a "why should he be allowed to stay just because he played sport" thread instead?

Casartelli wrote:

lostinwales wrote:'UK Border Agency spokesman says it has not curtailed Hendre Fourie's visa and he is not required to leave the UK'

.... Better go find something else to get worked up over

Maybe we can have a "why should he be allowed to stay just because he played sport" thread instead?

Alls well that ends well then.

Now we're bound to discover that he's actually a terr*r*st & that the rugby was just a front now that student visas have been cracked down on.

Galted wrote:Now we're bound to discover that he's actually a terr*r*st & that the rugby was just a front now that student visas have been cracked down on.

I guess if your gonna suicide bomb then maybe putting your body on the line on the pitch is just a warm up for the big finale.

Tweet from Sale just now:

Sale Sharks ‏@SaleSharksRugby
Just spoken to @Shrekkie07 about #SaveShrek. He'd thanks everyone for their support, but he is moving back to be with family in SA. Pls RT

Looks like he doesn't want to stay after all. Ungrateful if you ask me. We gave him an international career and this is how he repays us etc etc etc

Tongue firmly in cheek, please don't hate me.