Ireland's 6N training squad announcement (this wednesday)

First topic message reminder :

This Wednesday see's Declan Kidney announce possibly his final training squad for a competition as Ireland Head Coach. Indeed within the next 5 months or so Kidney's contract will expire and he may very well find himself looking for another job. Is this reason to throw caution to the wind? Many of us certainly hope so although some young and/or exciting players are now injured it looks like it will have less of a bang than it could have had if it had been announced 2 weeks ago.

Injuries rule out O'Connell which is a huge loss, as well as Marshall and Bowe who would have been hoping to be involved. Ferris is another who is out for what would appear most of the tournament if not the whole thing.

This time last year Kidney announced a 30 man training squad and a 23 man squad for the Wolfhounds game.

Ireland Training Squad (39):

Ireland Squad (club/province/international caps):
Michael Bent (Unattached/Leinster/2)
Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster/62)
Isaac Boss (Terenure College/Leinster/15)
Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster/3)
Tom Court (Malone/Ulster/29)
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster/23)
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster/71)
Keith Earls (Thomond/Munster/34)
Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College/Leinster/23)
Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon /Ulster/2)
Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster/1)
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster/35)
Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster/52) Captain
Iain Henderson (Queens University/Ulster/2)
Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster/4)
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)*
Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)*
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster/41)
David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster/2)
Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)*
Paul Marshall (Ballymena/Ulster/)*
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster/14)
Mike McCarthy (Buccaneers/Connacht/6)
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster/16)
Dave McSharry (Galwegians/Connacht/)*
Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster/22)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster/91)
Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster/120)
Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster/126)
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster/9)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster/47)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster/24)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster/23)
Jonathan Sexton (St.Mary's College/Leinster/34)
Lewis Stevenson (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster/)*
Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster/2)
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster/3)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster/49)
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster/3)

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Anyway I think Heaslip will do a good job. Granted he has a few restaraunts, shares in twitter, a silly haircut and inflated media profile but dont listen to what Hookey says he still does a great job on the pitch and has a decent record as captain. I probably would have prefered Best to be captain but Heaslip would have been my second choice anyway.

He got yellow carded against SA for giving the ref lip! We lost the match too.

Looks like it was a yellow for coming into the side of a ruck to me. Not sure where you got the giving lip bit from. I'm sure you wouldn't have anything against the lad just because he's from Leinster....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D99RCG79NyM

Speaking of Kearney I really think he should be a second goal kicker. Most if not all big teams have two kickers in their team. Some examples:

Australia: Cooper or Barnes/Beale/O'Connor
Wales: priestland or Biggar/Halfpenny
New Zealand: Carter or Cruden/Weepu (out of favour now but played a big part in WC kicking)
South Africa: Lambie or Steyn/Piennar/F Steyn

Given that Kearney actually has incredible range with him bomb of a left boot why the hell isnt he called in as a second kicker or anyone else for that matter. Why in Ireland does the OH always have to take all the kicks? I think its fair to say we have lost some big games by small margins and missed kicks.

Second test v NZ for example. Sexton had a long range shot at goal to go ahead. Maybe things might be different if someone like Robnoxious took it.

the-goon wrote:

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Anyway I think Heaslip will do a good job. Granted he has a few restaraunts, shares in twitter, a silly haircut and inflated media profile but dont listen to what Hookey says he still does a great job on the pitch and has a decent record as captain. I probably would have prefered Best to be captain but Heaslip would have been my second choice anyway.

He got yellow carded against SA for giving the ref lip! We lost the match too.

Looks like it was a yellow for coming into the side of a ruck to me. Not sure where you got the giving lip bit from. I'm sure you wouldn't have anything against the lad just because he's from Leinster....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D99RCG79NyM

He was annoying the ref all day (and was told that his complaints lacked credibility). Thats why he eventually got the card.

No, I don't have anything against him because he is from Israel (with a Limerick Dad).

No he isnt from Israel. He may have been born there cause his dad was in the army but he grew up in Kildare.

GunsGerms wrote:Speaking of Kearney I really think he should be a second goal kicker. Most if not all big teams have two kickers in their team. Some examples:

Australia: Cooper or Barnes/Beale/O'Connor
Wales: priestland or Biggar/Halfpenny
New Zealand: Carter or Cruden/Weepu (out of favour now but played a big part in WC kicking)
South Africa: Lambie or Steyn/Piennar/F Steyn

Given that Kearney actually has incredible range with him bomb of a left boot why the hell isnt he called in as a second kicker or anyone else for that matter. Why in Ireland does the OH always have to take all the kicks? I think its fair to say we have lost some big games by small margins and missed kicks.

Second test v NZ for example. Sexton had a long range shot at goal to go ahead. Maybe things might be different if someone like Robnoxious took it.

Maybe if Kearney started taking them for Leinster, he could then take some for Ireland! Not fair on the lad to expect him to take over kicking duties like that while not doing it at his club.

Exactly, so take them for Leinster then and get someone else in the other provinces to start taking some too. In all fairness many of our current backs were goal kickers for their school prior to joining their province. Drico, Darcy and Kearney all took penalties for their school so why stop? This should be encouraged and developed too. Kearney in particular is an excellent kicker with a massive boot. Such a waste that he hasnt been encouraged to kick more.

Also Mcfadden has played a lot of games for ireland and is a very reliable kicker. Why not let him share the load if Sexton gets the yips?

Radge gets a week... Hmmm looks like someone might have paid off the citing panel on that one.

So expect Madigan and Jackson to drop down to the Wolfies?

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:Radge gets a week... Hmmm looks like someone might have paid off the citing panel on that one.

So expect Madigan and Jackson to drop down to the Wolfies?

Hopefully not.

GunsGerms wrote:No he isnt from Israel. He may have been born there cause his dad was in the army but he grew up in Kildare.

It doesn't matter where you think he is from if you are trying to prove I don't like Heaslip because you think he is from Leinster.

If Ireland had any other kickers in the team apart from Sexton, Kidney would have zero excuse to have ROG in the squad!

He would probably reference leadership. But that's not enough if he can't get into the team on merit. He's been a handicap to Munster and if we were watching him without knowing his record with Ireland, we wouldn't be talking about him as first choice.

But as much as we gain nothing from ROG coming off the bench, I don't want Jackson to be involved in the Six Nations. I think he's been carrying injuries, his form has dipped since the start of the season and he's played a lot of rugby this year. I think he would benefit more from the break and gametime for the Wolfhounds and I'm not sure he's ready to win his first cap right now. I don't think it would be the best for him in the long term, but more importantly I don't think it would be best for Ireland. The truth is, ROG has his cheering section in the media. And whoever replaces him will be hammered for any perceived mistake whilst of course O'Gara gets a pass on a lot of things. Thats why it's so important whoever comes in is in form both in general play and with their goal kicking. Jackson is still developing at Ulster, he's not quite right. A man with momentum and confidence behind him.

Ian Keatley is the man who should be starting ahead of O'Gara at Munster and on the bench for Ireland. There is precedent for this, as Luke Marshall and Craig Gilroy was called up ahead of Paddy Wallace and Andrew Trimble despite not being first choice for Ulster. It was the correct decision then and showing faith in Keatley would be the correct one.

It mainly hinges on the game this weekend. Keatley needs to have a big game from Munster and Munster certainly need a big game from him. If he does that, he gives Kidney the option. Not performing will send the coach and the media jackals back into safety blanket mode.

The long and the short of it is that none of the aspirant outhalfs have done enough to displace O'Gara either at Munster or for Ireland.

You, as a Munster fan, can't possibly be happy with O'Garas performances this season?

I'm hoping ROG isn't near the 23, Madigan and Keatley I feel are better players.

Tuohy must be so disappointed he'd a real chance of getting in on the action same as Marshall. Thought Kieran Marmion has been immeasurably better than Paul Marshall this season

Marshall started the season well but his opportunities have been limited since. He had a very poor game in Thomond Park.

Notch wrote:You, as a Munster fan, can't possibly be happy with O'Garas performances this season?

I'm patient Notch - Rome wasn't built in a season!

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:You, as a Munster fan, can't possibly be happy with O'Garas performances this season?

I'm patient Notch - Rome wasn't built in a season!

I don't get it. So you think O'Gara is going to improve or...?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I'm hoping ROG isn't near the 23, Madigan and Keatley I feel are better players.

Tuohy must be so disappointed he'd a real chance of getting in on the action same as Marshall. Thought Kieran Marmion has been immeasurably better than Paul Marshall this season

Well, Rob Penney & Declan Kidney disagree with you on that one.

Tuohy is listed as injured.

Marshall & Jackson together. Connacht has an injury crisis and will need to win some game during the 6Ns.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:You, as a Munster fan, can't possibly be happy with O'Garas performances this season?

I'm patient Notch - Rome wasn't built in a season!

That would apply to Penney's tenure, not Rog, the Roman Empire did collapse, Rog has done likewise and its time to move on.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:You, as a Munster fan, can't possibly be happy with O'Garas performances this season?

I'm patient Notch - Rome wasn't built in a season!

I don't get it. So you think O'Gara is going to improve or...?

or we can't always expect O'Gara to pull Munster out of the fire (like last year). We've a young team that needs a year or two to develop.

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:You, as a Munster fan, can't possibly be happy with O'Garas performances this season?

I'm patient Notch - Rome wasn't built in a season!

That would apply to Penney's tenure, not Rog, the Roman Empire did collapse, Rog has done likewise and its time to move on.

it would be great if we could move on .... but as I've pointed out many times those who want to fill his boots have a bit more growing to do.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:You, as a Munster fan, can't possibly be happy with O'Garas performances this season?

I'm patient Notch - Rome wasn't built in a season!

I don't get it. So you think O'Gara is going to improve or...?

or we can't always expect O'Gara to pull Munster out of the fire (like last year). We've a young team that needs a year or two to develop.

Considering that he was the one who put them in the fire in a lot of the time, do you not think its only fair that he helped take you out. The reason Munster got through the HEC pool last year was because of POC.

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:You, as a Munster fan, can't possibly be happy with O'Garas performances this season?

I'm patient Notch - Rome wasn't built in a season!

I don't get it. So you think O'Gara is going to improve or...?

or we can't always expect O'Gara to pull Munster out of the fire (like last year). We've a young team that needs a year or two to develop.

Considering that he was the one who put them in the fire in a lot of the time, do you not think its only fair that he helped take you out. The reason Munster got through the HEC pool last year was because of POC.

Yea, Paul O'Connell is really missed as well.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:You, as a Munster fan, can't possibly be happy with O'Garas performances this season?

I'm patient Notch - Rome wasn't built in a season!

I don't get it. So you think O'Gara is going to improve or...?

or we can't always expect O'Gara to pull Munster out of the fire (like last year). We've a young team that needs a year or two to develop.

A lot of the time he's been putting them in fires as much as puling them out- he's not really vibing with Penneys gameplan. But then, thats not just him is it. You absolutely need to be patient.

What I've been struck by is how many cheap turnovers he's given away with his kicking this year. Like chips down the centre of the field with no chasers- this is very poor play. Kills attack and invites the counter-attack. And when he does kick well, hits the corners, Munster aren't even contesting the lineouts so its pointless. Its simply another turnover- he's too passive. His instinct is to sit deep and either kick or pass, which allows the defence to drift and when he does kick it often wastes field position and possession without actually applying any real pressure- this is a team issue as well as an individual issue, because a kick is only as good as its chasers but its massively worrying that ROG seems to be on a different wavelength as everyone else.

It just seems like Penney is asking a lot of square pegs to fit into round holes, but I guess it was always going to be like that. Penneys gameplan is a big, big shift from what Munster are used to in some ways. It's not all O'Garas fault things aren't working, tactical shifts are very hard to manage. But ROG is standing out as one of the Munster players who can't seem to adapt to Penneys way of doing things. Maybe it's just an old dog and new tricks. But it's not exactly filling anyone with confidence.

I think we should all wait and see how Keatley does things at the weekend before jumping to conclusions. It's definitely the biggest game of his Munster career. If he does well, he could well be called upon for further honours.

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:You, as a Munster fan, can't possibly be happy with O'Garas performances this season?

I'm patient Notch - Rome wasn't built in a season!

I don't get it. So you think O'Gara is going to improve or...?

or we can't always expect O'Gara to pull Munster out of the fire (like last year). We've a young team that needs a year or two to develop.

Considering that he was the one who put them in the fire in a lot of the time, do you not think its only fair that he helped take you out. The reason Munster got through the HEC pool last year was because of POC.

Yea, Paul O'Connell is really missed as well.

The bolded part is irrelevant, POC being missing is harming you but not nearly as much as the continued selection of O'Gara.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:You, as a Munster fan, can't possibly be happy with O'Garas performances this season?

I'm patient Notch - Rome wasn't built in a season!

I don't get it. So you think O'Gara is going to improve or...?

or we can't always expect O'Gara to pull Munster out of the fire (like last year). We've a young team that needs a year or two to develop.

A lot of the time he's been putting them in fires as much as puling them out- he's not really vibing with Penneys gameplan. But then, thats not just him is it. You absolutely need to be patient.

What I've been struck by is how many cheap turnovers he's given away with his kicking this year. Like chips down the centre of the field with no chasers- this is very poor play. Kills attack and invites the counter-attack. And when he does kick well, hits the corners, Munster aren't even contesting the lineouts so its pointless. Its simply another turnover- he's too passive. His instinct is to sit deep and either kick or pass, which allows the defence to drift and when he does kick it often wastes field position and possession without actually applying any real pressure

It just seems like Penney is asking a lot of square pegs to fit into round holes, but I guess it was always going to be like that. Penneys gameplan is a big, big shift from what Munster are used to in some ways. It's not all his fault things aren't working, tactical shifts are very hard to manage. But ROG is standing out as one of the Munster players who can't seem to adapt to Penneys way of doing things. Maybe it's just an old dog and new tricks. But it's not exactly filling anyone with confidence.

I think we should all wait and see how Keatley does things at the weekend before jumping to conclusions. It's definitely the biggest game of his Munster career. If he does well, he could well be called upon for further honours.

The thing with ROG is that he has made huge mistakes, that have either cost Munster scores or given scores to the opposition, in pretty much every game he has played this season. It is obvious that he is feeling the pressure from those behind him and he is trying to force the issue when he shouldn't. The stupid kick offs and 22s are mind blowingly poor play for someone so experienced.

The biggest thing that Keatley will bring, just by offering a running threat, is space to those outside him. Specifically Earls and Downey will no longer be getting ball and two men every time they receive a pass from their out half.

valjester wrote:
The thing with ROG is that he has made huge mistakes, that have either cost Munster scores or given scores to the opposition, in pretty much every game he has played this season. It is obvious that he is feeling the pressure from those behind him and he is trying to force the issue when he shouldn't. The stupid kick offs and 22s are mind blowingly poor play for someone so experienced.

The biggest thing that Keatley will bring, just by offering a running threat, is space to those outside him. Specifically Earls and Downey will no longer be getting ball and two men every time they receive a pass from their out half.

I couldn't agree more. I think there are some issues in Munster, I don't know whats going on down there. Obviously ROG has a lot of influence in the dressing room- even power- and supporters in the local and national press, as well as a central contract from the IRFU, so its not as simple as Penney just being able to drop him. It should be, but it isn't.

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:You, as a Munster fan, can't possibly be happy with O'Garas performances this season?

I'm patient Notch - Rome wasn't built in a season!

I don't get it. So you think O'Gara is going to improve or...?

or we can't always expect O'Gara to pull Munster out of the fire (like last year). We've a young team that needs a year or two to develop.

Considering that he was the one who put them in the fire in a lot of the time, do you not think its only fair that he helped take you out. The reason Munster got through the HEC pool last year was because of POC.

Yea, Paul O'Connell is really missed as well.

The bolded part is irrelevant, POC being missing is harming you but not nearly as much as the continued selection of O'Gara.

Keatley isn't up to it. He has plenty of chances this year and was just as poor as ROG. Munster have to wait for JJ to grow up a bit.

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:You, as a Munster fan, can't possibly be happy with O'Garas performances this season?

I'm patient Notch - Rome wasn't built in a season!

I don't get it. So you think O'Gara is going to improve or...?

or we can't always expect O'Gara to pull Munster out of the fire (like last year). We've a young team that needs a year or two to develop.

Considering that he was the one who put them in the fire in a lot of the time, do you not think its only fair that he helped take you out. The reason Munster got through the HEC pool last year was because of POC.

Yea, Paul O'Connell is really missed as well.

The bolded part is irrelevant, POC being missing is harming you but not nearly as much as the continued selection of O'Gara.

Keatley isn't up to it. He has plenty of chances this year and was just as poor as ROG. Munster have to wait for JJ to grow up a bit.

How can JJ grow if he can't even make the bench and when he does he barley gets on the field.

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:You, as a Munster fan, can't possibly be happy with O'Garas performances this season?

I'm patient Notch - Rome wasn't built in a season!

I don't get it. So you think O'Gara is going to improve or...?

or we can't always expect O'Gara to pull Munster out of the fire (like last year). We've a young team that needs a year or two to develop.

Considering that he was the one who put them in the fire in a lot of the time, do you not think its only fair that he helped take you out. The reason Munster got through the HEC pool last year was because of POC.

Yea, Paul O'Connell is really missed as well.

The bolded part is irrelevant, POC being missing is harming you but not nearly as much as the continued selection of O'Gara.

Keatley isn't up to it. He has plenty of chances this year and was just as poor as ROG. Munster have to wait for JJ to grow up a bit.

That is clearly not true, he has been kicking better than Rog from tee and hand, running better, I'm not sure what more he could have done to be ahead of Rog at this stage. He has outperformed him at every opportunity, the fact that you can't see that is bewildering.

Front row, 2nd row, half backs, centres, fullback, pick themselves.

Out of the five wings you could really justify picking any 2. Personally I would go for Zebo and Fitzgerald with Trimble next in line. It will be interesting to see who gets the bench spot , I would presume it's between Earls or McFadden. Not alot of talk about Earls this season, I still rate him a top winger, McFadden is a very good Leinster player but I think he will always just be an average international.

The back row competition is even fiercer with Henry, Henderson, and O'Mahony all playing brilliantly. I would start Henry for more balance and have Henderson as the 2nd row on the bench.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:You, as a Munster fan, can't possibly be happy with O'Garas performances this season?

I'm patient Notch - Rome wasn't built in a season!

I don't get it. So you think O'Gara is going to improve or...?

or we can't always expect O'Gara to pull Munster out of the fire (like last year). We've a young team that needs a year or two to develop.

Considering that he was the one who put them in the fire in a lot of the time, do you not think its only fair that he helped take you out. The reason Munster got through the HEC pool last year was because of POC.

Yea, Paul O'Connell is really missed as well.

The bolded part is irrelevant, POC being missing is harming you but not nearly as much as the continued selection of O'Gara.

Keatley isn't up to it. He has plenty of chances this year and was just as poor as ROG. Munster have to wait for JJ to grow up a bit.

How can JJ grow if he can't even make the bench and when he does he barley gets on the field.

I said grow up. He is 20. He is playing for an AIL Div 1 club as the starting outhalf, he is the starting outhalf for the B&I Cup team. He is still studying for his primary degree. More than likely the Munster staff are working on his conditioning as well (Zebo said something to the effect that his first year out of the Academy was spent mainly working on his conditioning and that is standing to him now).

gleesonisgod wrote:Front row, 2nd row, half backs, centres, fullback, pick themselves.

Out of the five wings you could really justify picking any 2. Personally I would go for Zebo and Fitzgerald with Trimble next in line. It will be interesting to see who gets the bench spot , I would presume it's between Earls or McFadden. Not alot of talk about Earls this season, I still rate him a top winger, McFadden is a very good Leinster player but I think he will always just be an average international.

The back row competition is even fiercer with Henry, Henderson, and O'Mahony all playing brilliantly. I would start Henry for more balance and have Henderson as the 2nd row on the bench.

Earls will be starting, I don't rate McFadden at all, especially as a international centre but he is capable of doing a job on the wing with the right players around him.

Notch wrote:

valjester wrote:
The thing with ROG is that he has made huge mistakes, that have either cost Munster scores or given scores to the opposition, in pretty much every game he has played this season. It is obvious that he is feeling the pressure from those behind him and he is trying to force the issue when he shouldn't. The stupid kick offs and 22s are mind blowingly poor play for someone so experienced.

The biggest thing that Keatley will bring, just by offering a running threat, is space to those outside him. Specifically Earls and Downey will no longer be getting ball and two men every time they receive a pass from their out half.

I couldn't agree more. I think there are some issues in Munster, I don't know whats going on down there. Obviously ROG has a lot of influence in the dressing room- even power- and supporters in the local and national press, as well as a central contract from the IRFU, so its not as simple as Penney just being able to drop him. It should be, but it isn't.

ROG isn't the only one who has mistakes. Don't forget Keatley has as much gametime as ROG at outhalf in the Heineken Cup and we struggled in those games as well.

Anthony Foley said today that the game plan now entails playing more moves off the scrumhalf, so maybe ROG is just doing what he is told to do.

I think its absolutely hilarious that you think that Penney would have a problem dropping ROG. Munster have never got all up tight about Munster players being dropped (the Munster ethos is that you are only minding the jersey). Kidney dropped Stringer for a HC QF and Foley (a former Munster captain out of the 22 for a final). Players and supporters are used to that now, so the only reason people would be upset by ROG being dropped is that his replacement wasn't as good as him.

Na it shall be BOD and Darce.... Ye finally someone sharing my view that mcfadden isnt really all that some Leinster fans make him out to be.... He tries hard I'll give him that but Fitzy has him ousted only 2 games back

Thats not quite the full truth of the matter. It's not necessarily all Penneys call.

ROG being there is a joke, much like his ban. Ah well as long as he isn't on the bench.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

valjester wrote:
The thing with ROG is that he has made huge mistakes, that have either cost Munster scores or given scores to the opposition, in pretty much every game he has played this season. It is obvious that he is feeling the pressure from those behind him and he is trying to force the issue when he shouldn't. The stupid kick offs and 22s are mind blowingly poor play for someone so experienced.

The biggest thing that Keatley will bring, just by offering a running threat, is space to those outside him. Specifically Earls and Downey will no longer be getting ball and two men every time they receive a pass from their out half.

I couldn't agree more. I think there are some issues in Munster, I don't know whats going on down there. Obviously ROG has a lot of influence in the dressing room- even power- and supporters in the local and national press, as well as a central contract from the IRFU, so its not as simple as Penney just being able to drop him. It should be, but it isn't.

ROG isn't the only one who has mistakes. Don't forget Keatley has as much gametime as ROG at outhalf in the Heineken Cup and we struggled in those games as well.

Anthony Foley said today that the game plan now entails playing more moves off the scrumhalf, so maybe ROG is just doing what he is told to do.

I think its absolutely hilarious that you think that Penney would have a problem dropping ROG. Munster have never got all up tight about Munster players being dropped (the Munster ethos is that you are only minding the jersey). Kidney dropped Stringer for a HC QF and Foley (a former Munster captain out of the 22 for a final). Players and supporters are used to that now, so the only reason people would be upset by ROG being dropped is that his replacement wasn't as good as him.

That is a load of sh**e and you know it. What are you peddling such rubbish, it does your argument a disservice when you destroy any credibility you might hope to have by being unable to stick to facts.

Stringer had lost his position in the Irish squad by the time he was dropped by Munster, the positions are not comparable.

ROGs time is up for Munster. He should be nowhere near an Irish team either. I say that as a fan of ROG. He has achieved so much despite having limitations.

As for the squad, its as expected. I would have liked to see Marmion in there but at least McSharry and Henshaw have been called up. Great to see Henshaw in there and good to see Felix Jones not in there because he has been terrible this season. From a Munster point of view Sherry and TOD can feel hard done by but they've time on their side.

Theres more competition than ever in the squad with plenty to debate. One thing I'd like to see is some rotation throughout the 6 nations.

His time has been up for over a year, it seems like an IRFU move playing ROG for Munster as it makes feic all sense the way we are trying to play, it wrecks everything we try to do, we didn;t score with Keatley last week but we saw an increase in tempo and some better backplay, they seemed to respond better to Keatley actually.

Thomond wrote:His time has been up for over a year, it seems like an IRFU move playing ROG for Munster as it makes feic all sense the way we are trying to play, it wrecks everything we try to do, we didn;t score with Keatley last week but we saw an increase in tempo and some better backplay, they seemed to respond better to Keatley actually.

Well next year he won't have the IRFU contract, nor will he have Kidney as coach, so maybe things will change. With a bit of luck Keatley will put in a performance that makes it extremely hard for him to be dropped by the Irfu.

Did anyone hear Shane Horgan's break down on Off the Ball earlier? Just listening to it now and the guy is getting a bit hysterical. Its a real shame that so many former players refuse to criticise their former team mates but I think Horgan has gone completely over the top in defending O'Driscoll from this perceived slight. Saying that Kidney has to give a valid reasons for switching captain and dropping an iconic players is a load of cr*p.

Kidney won everything in his career with ROG, so he obviously has a blind spot towards him. DK hasn't embraced the Law interpretations and ROG certainly can't play them so by definition while Kidney stays in the past he needs the comfort blanket of ROG who knows that game better than anyone. If Argentina was actually the unveiling of a brave new gameplan rather than just another false dawn, even Kidney may now realise ROG isn't the man to deliver it.

OTOH Penney is obviously trying to get Munster playing a more expansive game, but it's also obvious that pundits and some fans won't acknowledge the need to change. RP needs to challenge the "forwards only win matches" culture rather than just select a few different players. For that reason it is probably right that he doesn't over expose young Hanrahan yet or even Keatley when there is so much else to address in the backline.

I think Penney is trying to get a more full 15 style of play which is good because the whole forwards win matches thing is all well and good but if thats your only gameplan what happens when the oppositions forwards are bigger and/or better well you lose because you have nothing you can make a difference with.
As for Horgan he was a good player but is not a great pundit so I wouldn't take to much notice of him. It's possible Kidney has got to a stage where he knows he wont be coaching the team much longer and wants to give other people a chance so that he is leaving the new coach a better starting base maybe having Heaslip get games as Captain so he is more experienced as captain to give the new coach another option is part of this. Only one man knows why he did it though and that's Deccie himself.

The Great Aukster wrote:OTOH Penney is obviously trying to get Munster playing a more expansive game, but it's also obvious that pundits and some fans won't acknowledge the need to change. RP needs to challenge the "forwards only win matches" culture rather than just select a few different players. For that reason it is probably right that he doesn't over expose young Hanrahan yet or even Keatley when there is so much else to address in the backline.

Pfffff, I don't know man. In terms of the backline the biggest issues I've seen with Munster are the role of 10 and 12 as distributors. Too deep, too lateral, too predictable and too willing to shovel on bad ball. Outside 12 I think there is some very good stuff happening in terms of back play but that O'Gara-Downey midfield axis has been killing them and drastically limiting their space. It's worth saying Downey has also had a very disappointing season, but keeping O'Gara in the team because there's a lot else to be addressed doesn't make much sense when he is himself one of the biggest problems!

neilthom7 wrote:I think Penney is trying to get a more full 15 style of play which is good because the whole forwards win matches thing is all well and good but if thats your only gameplan what happens when the oppositions forwards are bigger and/or better well you lose because you have nothing you can make a difference with.
As for Horgan he was a good player but is not a great pundit so I wouldn't take to much notice of him. It's possible Kidney has got to a stage where he knows he wont be coaching the team much longer and wants to give other people a chance so that he is leaving the new coach a better starting base maybe having Heaslip get games as Captain so he is more experienced as captain to give the new coach another option is part of this. Only one man knows why he did it though and that's Deccie himself.

I would say it is much more likely that he believes his only hope of securing a contract extension is to attempt to finally catch up with the rest of the world.


On Penney, he is in a very tough position at Munster due to a number of factors. Firstly he has inherited a side that was on a downward slope and he is being tasked with turning things around. He has been given a staff that he had little say in, not to mention the players signed were here before he arrived. The media were hoping his assistant would have got the job and he needs to get them on his side to keep the fans on his side. However, to adjust to his game plan, he needs to get rid of some of the old players, ie Rog, but to do so would cause the press to get on his back.

He is also unlucky in that Anscombe, and of course Schmidt before him, have come in and done so well. It would be easy to compare the respective jobs done by Anscombe and Penney due to their time of arrival and them both being New Zealander's but to do so would be extremely unfair. Anscombe inherited a side on the up who had just reached the HEC final. Munster have been plugging gaps for the last few years.

Notch wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:OTOH Penney is obviously trying to get Munster playing a more expansive game, but it's also obvious that pundits and some fans won't acknowledge the need to change. RP needs to challenge the "forwards only win matches" culture rather than just select a few different players. For that reason it is probably right that he doesn't over expose young Hanrahan yet or even Keatley when there is so much else to address in the backline.

Pfffff, I don't know man. In terms of the backline the biggest issues I've seen with Munster are the role of 10 and 12 as distributors. Too deep, too lateral, too predictable and too willing to shovel on bad ball. Outside 12 I think there is some very good stuff happening in terms of back play but that O'Gara-Downey midfield axis has been killing them and drastically limiting their space. It's worth saying Downey has also had a very disappointing season, but keeping O'Gara in the team because there's a lot else to be addressed doesn't make much sense when he is himself one of the biggest problems!

This can go with my point of it being extremely stupid of Munster to sign LLL and Downey before Penney arrived. He should have been given a say in the signings as the players Munster bought are entirely at odds with the type of game he wants to play. It seems that Munster are trying to by pass the issues with the 10-12 axis as much as possible by Murray just completely ignoring them and trying to use Earls and Zebo as first receiver as much as possible, which obviously isn't ideal. Munster really needed to go out and buy a top class number 12 last summer. Imo they bought the wrong Blues centre.

From the outside, I do get the impression that Penney has been brought over but his way of doing things hasn't been bought into by the organisation fully- by the players or by the upper management.

It's important to have everyone singing off the same hymn sheet. I could be wrong about this.

Anscombe also inherited a side that was a playing a more open style of rugby and was more willing to play that style of rugby all he had to do was to refine them a bit and build depth, which he has done well. Penney on the other hand took over a place that had played the same way for donkeys years and while the other way was proving to be more effective in place he has had to win them over and teach them some new tricks which in the case of ROG just hasn't worked so Penney is in a really tough spot.

That's another point while Ulster were done and dusted with most of their signings and letting go's before Anscombe came but crucially they left 1 NIQ signing for him it was only one but it allowed him to add his stamp he choose Hulk which was a great choice lol. Munster signed Downey which really says they weren't going to change to much as you don't sign downey for his passing or soft hands.