Ireland's 6N training squad announcement (this wednesday)

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:05 pm

First topic message reminder :

This Wednesday see's Declan Kidney announce possibly his final training squad for a competition as Ireland Head Coach. Indeed within the next 5 months or so Kidney's contract will expire and he may very well find himself looking for another job. Is this reason to throw caution to the wind? Many of us certainly hope so although some young and/or exciting players are now injured it looks like it will have less of a bang than it could have had if it had been announced 2 weeks ago.

Injuries rule out O'Connell which is a huge loss, as well as Marshall and Bowe who would have been hoping to be involved. Ferris is another who is out for what would appear most of the tournament if not the whole thing.

This time last year Kidney announced a 30 man training squad and a 23 man squad for the Wolfhounds game.

Ireland Training Squad (39):

Ireland Squad (club/province/international caps):
Michael Bent (Unattached/Leinster/2)
Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster/62)
Isaac Boss (Terenure College/Leinster/15)
Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster/3)
Tom Court (Malone/Ulster/29)
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster/23)
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster/71)
Keith Earls (Thomond/Munster/34)
Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College/Leinster/23)
Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon /Ulster/2)
Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster/1)
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster/35)
Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster/52) Captain
Iain Henderson (Queens University/Ulster/2)
Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster/4)
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)*
Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)*
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster/41)
David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster/2)
Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)*
Paul Marshall (Ballymena/Ulster/)*
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster/14)
Mike McCarthy (Buccaneers/Connacht/6)
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster/16)
Dave McSharry (Galwegians/Connacht/)*
Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster/22)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster/91)
Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster/120)
Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster/126)
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster/9)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster/47)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster/24)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster/23)
Jonathan Sexton (St.Mary's College/Leinster/34)
Lewis Stevenson (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster/)*
Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster/2)
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster/3)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster/49)
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster/3)

by Sin é Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:42 pm

the-goon wrote:A lot of ppl feel ROG should be dropped for Munster as well.

Also, who cares if ROG is a crowd puller?? If he isn't playing well enough to play he shouldn't be there (and this is clearly the case). Mads, Jackson and Keatley are all better rugby players. The only thing ROG has is goal kicking. His defense, strength, passing, attacking the line, decision making (he ALWAYS kicks the ball away!!) are so far below par that his strengths are completely nullified. Also he comes on for D'Arcy so Sexton is still on the pitch and normally continues with the kicking.

So what does he offer when on the pitch?? So we'll kick the ball even more in the last 10min, great give the opposition more ball to attack our tired (and now weaker) defence.

This is not an attack on ROG at all, this is directed towards the mgt team that continue to select him week in week out. ROG has every right to put himself forward for selection, he has a living to make and it's a short one so he should make it last as long as he can. I have no doubt he is doing the best he can in order to win (always has), but his best is no longer good enough and the selectors need to realise this. This is a results business, if he can't provide it, he needs to be dropped. We have young players who are showing potential. We are 2.5 years from the next WC, we need to see if they can step up.

Do you see the ABs keep players past their sell by date because of what they used to do???

Wow - so Tony McGahan, Rob Penney & Declan Kidney who continue to pick O'Gara are wrong and you are right! and some of you think that ROG should question his own capabilities. Very Happy

Plenty of opportunities to see if they can step up for their Province (and while they have all shown promise, there is a major issue with everyone of them - whether its who is controlling the game (pienaar) or not actually starting in the big games at outhalf (Madigan).

by Jenifer McLadyboy Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:48 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
red_stag wrote:Will Henshaw start?

I suspect we will see Jackson at 10, Madigan at 15 and Keatley at 22.

Wouldn't like that at all,Madigan can do a job at 15 but why not use the specialist who's been playing better there.Madigan should be on the bench imo,Jackson to start.

Henshaw mostly plays 13 but has been at FB because Duffy is out. Madigan has always played 15 (and 10 but mostly 15 before the Schmidt era)

by BelfastDickVet Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:49 pm

Sin é wrote:
BelfastDickVet wrote:
Sin é wrote:
BelfastDickVet wrote:
Sin é wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:Does the fact that ROG is on a central contact make him undropable?
He isn't there because of his form anyway.

You think any of the others deserve to be there on form? None of Jackson, Madgan or Keatley seem to be first choice at their club (Jackson dropped to the bench last weekend). If O'Gara wasn't suspended, he too would have been starting for munster.

That was more to do with Jackson carrying a knock than not being first choice. This was seen when he eventually came on and our game improved exponentially. Jackson is playing much better rugby than ROG.

Doesn't matter - he isn't fit to play then. Neither does he have a Pienaar to hold his hand (and take the pressure off if his kicking isn't going well).

What about the Munster back row holding ROG's hand defensively his entire career. I would rather an injured jackson in our defensive line then the human speed bump that is ROG. also jackson has a bit of flair and can get a back line moving, rather than just hoofing the ball up field like the (current) one dimenstional ROG. Jackson is benched for one game and sin e reckons he is no longer first choice, reactionary or what.

Fair enough if you intend defending for the game. Anyone can supply the brawn. Its the brains/head to control the game that the outhalf really needs.

I'm going on the last couple of Jackson's games where he has been poor which I believe to be down to injury. Whether he is off form or injured will still affect his performance if he is needed early in a game in the 6Ns. I suppose Ireland could always drop Gilroy or Trimble to allow McFadden to start so that he could take the kicks.

ROG is an Irish legend who is simply past his prime.

Are you suggesting that Madigan & Jackson are now in their prime?

Sin E you must see that we are building for the next World Cup, and there are players who are going to be in contention for that tournament that would benefit greatly from ROG's bench spot as he won't be around for 2015. An I don't just mean Jackson, I would also include the magnificent madigan and the improving keatly.

I don't see what benefit it is to young players to sit on the bench for 5 game to get (hopefully) only 25 minutes of rugby in 6 weeks. Apart from the games being generally tight, Sexton sure doesn't like being substituted.

You don't see the benefit of players being involved in the build up to a big game, involved in the team talks, the training sessions, bonding with team mates from other provinces etc. the amount of confidence and knowledge which could be taken in during these time could be invaluable to a young developing player.

I am not saying these boys are in their prime but the stage they are currently at is far far far better that the stage ROG is currently at.

Wether you are defending for 10 min or 70 min your defensive line must be rock solid. You can't just say before a match - "we have no intention to defend all game, instead we are going to play lovely attacking rugby" and use that as a reason to include a defensive liability. How can you predict what way the game will turn out. How can you predict the level of possession a team is going to have. I also question ROG's "Rugby brain" he is very one dimensional I believe that the other younger candidates have the ability to get a dynamic back line moving, and not just fire up Garyownes or kick to touch.

by asoreleftshoulder Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:59 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
red_stag wrote:Will Henshaw start?

I suspect we will see Jackson at 10, Madigan at 15 and Keatley at 22.

Wouldn't like that at all,Madigan can do a job at 15 but why not use the specialist who's been playing better there.Madigan should be on the bench imo,Jackson to start.
Henshaw mostly plays 13 but has been at FB because Duffy is out. Madigan has always played 15 (and 10 but mostly 15 before the Schmidt era)

I'm just going by senior rugby,I don't really care where guys played underage or at A level.Henshaw has been far better at fullback than Madigan who while he can do a lot right also makes some pretty glaring mistakes at 15.

by **profitius** Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:59 pm

My guess would be something like..

Kilcoyne
Sherry
Fitzpatrick
Henderson
Stevenson
Ruddock
TOD
Coughlan

P Marshall
Madigan

Luke Fitz
McSharry
Cave
Trimble
Henshaw

Varley
Jackson
Keatley
Boss
Court
Bent
Toner
McLoughlan

When you consider all the injuries and players left out, would it be fair to say its easily the strongest A side we ever had?

by Jenifer McLadyboy Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:02 pm

Sin é wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:I have no problem with ROG on the Irish bench for the 6N. (providing Sexton doesn't go down injured v Wales France or England after 10 mins)

He has enough in him to close out a few games no worries. (and as has been said he will keep a lot of casual fans and G Hook happy)

What worries me is that he or Dekko may get an extension on their Ireland contracts.

Things have gone very quiet on Dekko being replaced......

Dekko is setting Team Ireland up for his successor (my bet is Les Kiss) by sorting out the captaincy and now Enda McNulty to do the psychology stuff that he did. I'd imagine Dekko is going to get the new IRFU's Director of Rugby that will oversee the professional game in Ireland.

(to be honest, I wouldn't be happy with Madigan, Jackson coming off the bench 10 minutes into a game against France or Wales. At least O'Gara is used to dealing with taking the flac if/when it goes wrong.

I would agree. Rog is in decline. Which is absolutely fair enough given he is 35 and has had a great career.

Madigan, Keatley and Jackson are all very promising but I would not fancy any of them to come off the bench with 10 mins gone either.

Next season their ascent should cross the arc of Rog's descent. For now I would have Rog

by Jenifer McLadyboy Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:08 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
red_stag wrote:Will Henshaw start?

I suspect we will see Jackson at 10, Madigan at 15 and Keatley at 22.

Wouldn't like that at all,Madigan can do a job at 15 but why not use the specialist who's been playing better there.Madigan should be on the bench imo,Jackson to start.
Henshaw mostly plays 13 but has been at FB because Duffy is out. Madigan has always played 15 (and 10 but mostly 15 before the Schmidt era)

I'm just going by senior rugby,I don't really care where guys played underage or at A level.Henshaw has been far better at fullback than Madigan who while he can do a lot right also makes some pretty glaring mistakes at 15.

In fairness. Henshaw was in school about 6 months ago. Madigan has been playing FB for years. Not sure which has played more FB at senior level.

by asoreleftshoulder Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:17 pm

Henshaw has been almost exclusively a fullback this season and been playing well there.Madigan has played 10 and 15 but imo doesn't look great at 15,he can do a job but long term isn't going to play there and so I think playing him in this game is a wasted opportunity.

by Sin é Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:22 pm

BelfastDickVet wrote:
You don't see the benefit of players being involved in the build up to a big game, involved in the team talks, the training sessions, bonding with team mates from other provinces etc. the amount of confidence and knowledge which could be taken in during these time could be invaluable to a young developing player.

They are building that experience by being away with the squad anyway. It would be a massive ask of any young outhalf to throw them into a must win game in the 6Ns with more or less a backline that none of them have much experience of playing with (and in particular their half-back partner Connor Murray who is also very inexperienced at this level).

Wether you are defending for 10 min or 70 min your defensive line must be rock solid. You can't just say before a match - "we have no intention to defend all game, instead we are going to play lovely attacking rugby" and use that as a reason to include a defensive liability. How can you predict what way the game will turn out. How can you predict the level of possession a team is going to have. I also question ROG's "Rugby brain" he is very one dimensional I believe that the other younger candidates have the ability to get a dynamic back line moving, and not just fire up Garyownes or kick to touch.

crickey, you'd think Munster/Ireland leeked trys when ROG is playing. Interesting that against Edinburgh in the HC, Edinburgh didn't score when ROG was on the pitch and they scored 2 with Keatley.

Nothing wrong with Garryowens (and many a top class restart from ROG has resulted in a score). Poor restarts from Sexton have cost Leinster & Ireland in the past. Bearing in mind that Wales are now down to their 5/6th choice locks, kicking the corners might be a good option in the 6Ns.

by neilthom7 Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:30 pm

How good was O'Gara the last time he played for Ireland? That would be the ten or 20 mins v Argentina, remember that game? If not go watch it again and hen tell me O'Gara is so much better than all the younger guys with 10 minutes to go.

by Sin é Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:31 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
red_stag wrote:Will Henshaw start?

I suspect we will see Jackson at 10, Madigan at 15 and Keatley at 22.

Wouldn't like that at all,Madigan can do a job at 15 but why not use the specialist who's been playing better there.Madigan should be on the bench imo,Jackson to start.
Henshaw mostly plays 13 but has been at FB because Duffy is out. Madigan has always played 15 (and 10 but mostly 15 before the Schmidt era)

Think Henshaw maybe used at 13. Les Kiss said something to the effect last week that they see him as a 13.

by GunsGerms Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:33 pm

neilthom7 wrote:How good was O'Gara the last time he played for Ireland? That would be the ten or 20 mins v Argentina, remember that game? If not go watch it again and hen tell me O'Gara is so much better than all the younger guys with 10 minutes to go.

He hasnt been good in years, no need to look at any footage. He must have some kind of sh1t on Kidney as there is no rational explaination as to why he is included.

by bluestonevedder Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:36 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
neilthom7 wrote:How good was O'Gara the last time he played for Ireland? That would be the ten or 20 mins v Argentina, remember that game? If not go watch it again and hen tell me O'Gara is so much better than all the younger guys with 10 minutes to go.

He hasnt been good in years, no need to look at any footage. He must have some kind of sh1t on Kidney as there is no rational explaination as to why he is included.

I thought he was there for his physcial presence?

by neilthom7 Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:37 pm

Also about Jackson he has been injured however he came on and made a big difference to that Ulster team and made some nice breaks v Castres. We need a complete change in the set up if one of Kidneys coaches takes over after him I don't think I will bother watching Ireland again because nothing will change.

by Kingshu Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:37 pm

Don't know why Trimble is in the wolfhounds squad, Zebo and Trimble have been the best wings in Ireland recently, I really don't know what Dk has against him, ok he hasn't really shone in an Ireland shirt, but he hasn't ever been given a run of games, starting one week, not even in squad the next.

Think we can say Zebo will be on one wing, the other wing should be Trimble's, but knowing DK, it will go to Earls.

by Sin é Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:39 pm

neilthom7 wrote:How good was O'Gara the last time he played for Ireland? That would be the ten or 20 mins v Argentina, remember that game? If not go watch it again and hen tell me O'Gara is so much better than all the younger guys with 10 minutes to go.

He got 8 minutes in the game v Argentina and 5 against SA having hardly played for the previous month as he was coming back from a leg injury in the first HCup game in Paris.

Just be careful what you wish for. Sitting on the bench is pointless for development.

by Mcgavin Sean Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:40 pm

Do you remember the top class restart sin e that Radge made in our last game versus Argentina,a 22 that went about shoulder height in to the arms of an Argie and they went in under the posts,7 easy points conceded. Radge is a liability and well past his sell by date.

by red_stag Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:41 pm

neilthom7 wrote:I don't think I will bother watching Ireland again because nothing will change.

Then good riddance to you. Ireland will be better off without you. Horrible attitude. "I wont support the team because my favourites dont get picked"

by Sin é Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:42 pm

neilthom7 wrote:Also about Jackson he has been injured however he came on and made a big difference to that Ulster team and made some nice breaks v Castres. We need a complete change in the set up if one of Kidneys coaches takes over after him I don't think I will bother watching Ireland again because nothing will change.

The difference could be that Pienaar is much better at controlling the game from 9 than from 10.

by Sin é Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:43 pm

Mcgavin Sean wrote:Do you remember the top class restart sin e that Radge made in our last game versus Argentina,a 22 that went about shoulder height in to the arms of an Argie and they went in under the posts,7 easy points conceded. Radge is a liability and well past his sell by date.

A good reminder that sitting on the bench doesn't help anyone's game, ROG included.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:48 pm

red_stag wrote:Will Henshaw start?

I suspect we will see Jackson at 10, Madigan at 15 and Keatley at 22.

I'd dislike that selection I think. Madigan or Keatley to start at 10 with Henshaw at 15 and then have Keatley or Madigan covering the 15 jersey.

There were a few teams above that I liked the look of.

Madigan I feel is wasted at 15 it doesn't suit his strengths as much as it could

by **rodders** Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:49 pm

red_stag wrote:
neilthom7 wrote:I don't think I will bother watching Ireland again because nothing will change.

Then good riddance to you. Ireland will be better off without you. Horrible attitude. "I wont support the team because my favourites dont get picked"

Don't give up Neil. Its not the coaches... it's the sponsors. If we got fonacab and Boojian to sponsor the Irish team we'd probably see Jackson in there....... Wink

by Standulstermen Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:00 pm

I suspect Trimble will just be hoping and praying for a new coaching ticket soon. Gilroy and Zebo look in pole position because they can create something out of nothing which we largely rely on.

If we were so concerned with building for the future then jackson and Henderson would displace ROG and DOC respectively, just as Kilcoyne has replaced Court.

No point in going overboard until we see what he picks for Wales Though. Have to say I hold very little optimism. Argentina was a blip until proven otherwise IMO.

by neilthom7 Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:04 pm

I never said that I was not going to bother watching because my favorites because I don't care who gets picked as long as they are the form or the best for the job. I said if the coaches stay the same minus Kidney then nothing will change I am not necessarily talking about players changing I am talking about the set up, I am talking about the way we play etc I am talking about the likes of O'Gara getting picked because of his name not what he does. I mean Keatley has the best kicking percentage in the Pro 12 doesn't he? Jackson has been starting consistently in the team that's top of the league. Why should O'Gara start ahead of either of these guys. Its that nothing is going to change not who gets picked if it was say Les Kiss or someone who got the job. It shouldn't be given to part of a coaching team that has been part of the problem the last few years. So please don't insult me by saying that the reason I wouldn't watch Ireland is because my 'favorites' don't get picked.

by red_stag Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:07 pm

Whatever helps you sleep at night pal thumbsup

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:09 pm

I wonder what the benefit of Varley is?

I completely understand Sherry being there: he is vying for the 16 jersey but why Varley who is just a poor player? Cronin could have done with time trying to sort out his lineout in a match situation and getting further experience with the Irish calls.

Varley seems like a bit of a waste of a selection to me in the Wolfies squad

by Mcgavin Sean Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:09 pm

Sin é wrote:
Mcgavin Sean wrote:Do you remember the top class restart sin e that Radge made in our last game versus Argentina,a 22 that went about shoulder height in to the arms of an Argie and they went in under the posts,7 easy points conceded. Radge is a liability and well past his sell by date.

A good reminder that sitting on the bench doesn't help anyone's game, ROG included.

Hahaha what a come back,are you for real....build a bridge and get over him...can you not fawn over someone else thats maybe worth his place in the squad.

by **rodders** Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:10 pm

Counting ROG's caps helps me sleep ...... Whistle

by GunsGerms Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:11 pm

neilthom7 wrote:So please don't insult me by saying that the reason I wouldn't watch Ireland is because my 'favorites' don't get picked.

Stag is just being a WUM as usual. ;-)

by GunsGerms Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:12 pm

I must say nothing would stop me watching Ireland play but it is becoming more and more frustrating the longer Kidney is in charge.

by Sin é Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:12 pm

Good point about the kicking percentages in the Rabo Neil. Keatley has the best.

I think he was 40% in last week's HC game though. Having big game mentality/being able to cope with pressure is high on the list of requirements for international outhalfs.

Charlie Hodgson is a prime example. Great at club level, looses it at international level.

by red_stag Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:13 pm

Ah no seriously Guns I just really hate to see people saying they wont support the team because of things like selection.

Essentially people are whinging about what is probably about 2-3 selection issues.

I don't want ROG to start at Munster anymore or be on the Irish bench. But if he is I won't be too upset.

by **rodders** Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:16 pm

Change of topic anyone else starting to feel that we are going to win the slam this year?

by LeinsterFan4life Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:19 pm

We have good dept at LH now when you consider both Buckley and Wilkinson (who started for the wolfhounds last year) aren't in the squad. We are also developing a bit of dept at TH if Fitzpatrick could stay injury free. We have come along way since even last year.

by asoreleftshoulder Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:20 pm

rodders wrote:Change of topic anyone else starting to feel that we are going to win the slam this year?

Nope,but wait until 10 minutes before the Welsh game and that'll change. Yahoo

by Sin é Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:21 pm

rodders wrote:Change of topic anyone else starting to feel that we are going to win the slam this year?

Maybe not the slam, but the championship. A lot depends on Ross staying fit.

by GunsGerms Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:24 pm

red_stag wrote: Ah no seriously Guns I just really hate to see people saying they wont support the team because of things like selection.

Not sure thats exactly what was said but Ill stay out of it.

red_stag wrote:

Essentially people are whinging about what is probably about 2-3 selection issues.

I don't want ROG to start at Munster anymore or be on the Irish bench. But if he is I won't be too upset.

Thing is I think you will agree 2011 was a pretty terrible year for the Ireland team so I think most people would like the squad to be shook up a bit. I mean if we are going to lose anyway it might as well be with some new faces in the squad. In fairness it has been a lot but I spose there is still some dead wood.

I dont think there is anything to be gained by bringing a 35 year old on for 10 minutes at the end of every match just to kick ball away. Sure Paddy Jackson, Keatley or Madigan can all do that.

by **rodders** Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:28 pm

Sin é wrote:
rodders wrote:Change of topic anyone else starting to feel that we are going to win the slam this year?

Maybe not the slam, but the championship. A lot depends on Ross staying fit.

down with the negativity Sinbo!

I have good feeling about it! guinness

by LeinsterFan4life Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:31 pm

Sure opposition fans love seeing ROG on the pitch. Remember a couple of NZ fans on here asking to see ROG start? Does that not show how bad he is now?

Legend of the game but is ruining his legacy. Its getting hard to remember his great moments on the pitch.

by red_stag Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:32 pm

But the squad is being shook up a bit.

I think we are seeing good experimentation. Kidney went for the controversial Strauss selection in the Autumn, he did the same with Michael Bent, he gambled with Zebo as a fullback, he brought in the extremely inexperienced Iain Henderson, Craig Gilroy has come into the team.

Apart from ROGs continual presence whats the issue. Having Darcy start? Or having O'Callaghan around the team.

Darcy is still be consistently picked by Leinster. Everyone worships the ground Schmidt walks on and he has never dropped Darcy. Who else is he going to pick? Paddy Wallace? James Downey? Fergus McFadden is a great winger but is not an international 12. Anything of worth he has achieved for Leinster or Ireland is as a winger.

O'Callaghan was dropped by Ireland for Ryan a long time ago. He hung around as O'Connell was injured a lot. He has now been by passed by Mike McCarthy.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:35 pm

red_stag wrote:But the squad is being shook up a bit.

I think we are seeing good experimentation. Kidney went for the controversial Strauss selection in the Autumn, he did the same with Michael Bent, he gambled with Zebo as a fullback, he brought in the extremely inexperienced Iain Henderson, Craig Gilroy has come into the team.

Apart from ROGs continual presence whats the issue. Having Darcy start? Or having O'Callaghan around the team.

Darcy is still be consistently picked by Leinster. Everyone worships the ground Schmidt walks on and he has never dropped Darcy. Who else is he going to pick? Paddy Wallace? James Downey? Fergus McFadden is a great winger but is not an international 12. Anything of worth he has achieved for Leinster or Ireland is as a winger.

O'Callaghan was dropped by Ireland for Ryan a long time ago. He hung around as O'Connell was injured a lot. He has now been by passed by Mike McCarthy.

+1

DK is not as conservative as we think he is. He is still tactically very inept and conservative but in terms of new blood, he gets a fair bit of it in. A lot of the time it is through injury but Gilroy got in by himself, Kilcoyne too and Henry too.

by the-goon Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:45 pm

Sin é wrote:
the-goon wrote:A lot of ppl feel ROG should be dropped for Munster as well.

Also, who cares if ROG is a crowd puller?? If he isn't playing well enough to play he shouldn't be there (and this is clearly the case). Mads, Jackson and Keatley are all better rugby players. The only thing ROG has is goal kicking. His defense, strength, passing, attacking the line, decision making (he ALWAYS kicks the ball away!!) are so far below par that his strengths are completely nullified. Also he comes on for D'Arcy so Sexton is still on the pitch and normally continues with the kicking.

So what does he offer when on the pitch?? So we'll kick the ball even more in the last 10min, great give the opposition more ball to attack our tired (and now weaker) defence.

This is not an attack on ROG at all, this is directed towards the mgt team that continue to select him week in week out. ROG has every right to put himself forward for selection, he has a living to make and it's a short one so he should make it last as long as he can. I have no doubt he is doing the best he can in order to win (always has), but his best is no longer good enough and the selectors need to realise this. This is a results business, if he can't provide it, he needs to be dropped. We have young players who are showing potential. We are 2.5 years from the next WC, we need to see if they can step up.

Do you see the ABs keep players past their sell by date because of what they used to do???

Wow - so Tony McGahan, Rob Penney & Declan Kidney who continue to pick O'Gara are wrong and you are right! and some of you think that ROG should question his own capabilities.

Plenty of opportunities to see if they can step up for their Province (and while they have all shown promise, there is a major issue with everyone of them - whether its who is controlling the game (pienaar) or not actually starting in the big games at outhalf (Madigan).

It's not just me calling for ROG to be dropped, and there is talk that Penny's hand has been forced by the Munster brass upstairs?? McGahan isn't munster coach anymore and YES I am say Kidney is wrong!! Dead wrong, just like he has been with many things in the Irish setup. Don't believe me? Look at our results over the past 3 years? Look at our performances? They have been terrible, bar 1 in every 8 or so. That is not good enough for me and many other fans.

I would be far more confident with any of Jackson, Keatley or Madigan coming on if Sexton gets injured than ROG. First and foremost, they can tackle; also, they offer a running threat (thus fixing the defence and giving space to our backs) and don't gift possession to the opposition with constant kicking. Yes, it might be a disaster, but it also could be the making of them. We know what ROG can and can't offer.

Why do we need to be so conservative???

We cannot beat a team with an equal pack to ours and an agressive defensive line with ROG at 10, hell with the "gameplan" we have we prob won't do it with my preferred line up.

by Sin é Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:48 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Sure opposition fans love seeing ROG on the pitch. Remember a couple of NZ fans on here asking to see ROG start? Does that not show how bad he is now?

Legend of the game but is ruining his legacy. Its getting hard to remember his great moments on the pitch.

ROG hasn't started a game for Ireland for about a year. He has been doing what Paddy Wallace was doing for years. Bench warming - which must be very hard for someone like him and deserves our respect for continuing to help. Its not his fault that Ireland want him on the bench.

People keep saying that Hayes was ruining his legacy by playing on. Not much evidence out there to suggest it has. A similar situation with Peter Stringer - and like ROG, he always gets a great reception when he has come on. I would have said David Humphreys image was tarnished when he refused to sit on the bench when Ireland were really stuck.

by LeinsterFan4life Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:50 pm

Sin é wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:Sure opposition fans love seeing ROG on the pitch. Remember a couple of NZ fans on here asking to see ROG start? Does that not show how bad he is now?

Legend of the game but is ruining his legacy. Its getting hard to remember his great moments on the pitch.

ROG hasn't started a game for Ireland for about a year. He has been doing what Paddy Wallace was doing for years. Bench warming - which must be very hard for someone like him and deserves our respect for continuing to help. Its not his fault that Ireland want him on the bench.

People keep saying that Hayes was ruining his legacy by playing on. Not much evidence out there to suggest it has. A similar situation with Peter Stringer - and like ROG, he always gets a great reception when he has come on. I would have said David Humphreys image was tarnished when he refused to sit on the bench when Ireland were really stuck.

Everyone knows ROG doesn't start for Ireland, thats why they were calling for him to start...

by Sin é Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:59 pm

the-goon wrote:

It's not just me calling for ROG to be dropped, and there is talk that Penny's hand has been forced by the Munster brass upstairs?? McGahan isn't munster coach anymore and YES I am say Kidney is wrong!! Dead wrong, just like he has been with many things in the Irish setup. Don't believe me? Look at our results over the past 3 years? Look at our performances? They have been terrible, bar 1 in every 8 or so. That is not good enough for me and many other fans.

I would be far more confident with any of Jackson, Keatley or Madigan coming on if Sexton gets injured than ROG. First and foremost, they can tackle; also, they offer a running threat (thus fixing the defence and giving space to our backs) and don't gift possession to the opposition with constant kicking. Yes, it might be a disaster, but it also could be the making of them. We know what ROG can and can't offer.

Why do we need to be so conservative???

We cannot beat a team with an equal pack to ours and an agressive defensive line with ROG at 10, hell with the "gameplan" we have we prob won't do it with my preferred line up.

Why would the brass want to force Penney to select ROG - you'd swear his alternatives were NIQ. Keatley (who has just signed a new 2 year contract) is Ireland qualified and it would be of benefit to any so called brass if he was ahead of ROG for Munster.

ROG is close to the end of his contract and none of Jackson, Keatley or Madigan are due to sign a new contract, so financially it wouldn't cost them to use them.

Since O'Gara has played less than 80 mins of international rugby in the last year, I don't see how you an blame him for last year's losses in NZ.

ROG didn't play a minute against Wales so you can't blame that loss on him. One of Ireland's best result last season (2nd test against NZ), he was on for 29 mins, which is the most he has played in any game in the last 12 months.

by Sin é Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:06 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Everyone knows ROG doesn't start for Ireland, thats why they were calling for him to start...

For a lad that everyone knows won't get much gametime, he sure gets a lot of comment. Box Office Wink

!

by Glas a du Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:07 pm

ROG is your secret weapon, never forget that.

by LeinsterFan4life Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:11 pm

Glas a du wrote:ROG is your secret weapon, never forget that.

see what I mean Sin...

by asoreleftshoulder Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:12 pm

Lol you know the internationals are rolling back around when Sin is spamming threads.

by the-goon Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:15 pm

Sin é wrote:
the-goon wrote:

It's not just me calling for ROG to be dropped, and there is talk that Penny's hand has been forced by the Munster brass upstairs?? McGahan isn't munster coach anymore and YES I am say Kidney is wrong!! Dead wrong, just like he has been with many things in the Irish setup. Don't believe me? Look at our results over the past 3 years? Look at our performances? They have been terrible, bar 1 in every 8 or so. That is not good enough for me and many other fans.

I would be far more confident with any of Jackson, Keatley or Madigan coming on if Sexton gets injured than ROG. First and foremost, they can tackle; also, they offer a running threat (thus fixing the defence and giving space to our backs) and don't gift possession to the opposition with constant kicking. Yes, it might be a disaster, but it also could be the making of them. We know what ROG can and can't offer.

Why do we need to be so conservative???

We cannot beat a team with an equal pack to ours and an agressive defensive line with ROG at 10, hell with the "gameplan" we have we prob won't do it with my preferred line up.

Why would the brass want to force Penney to select ROG - you'd swear his alternatives were NIQ. Keatley (who has just signed a new 2 year contract) is Ireland qualified and it would be of benefit to any so called brass if he was ahead of ROG for Munster.

ROG is close to the end of his contract and none of Jackson, Keatley or Madigan are due to sign a new contract, so financially it wouldn't cost them to use them.

Since O'Gara has played less than 80 mins of international rugby in the last year, I don't see how you an blame him for last year's losses in NZ.

ROG didn't play a minute against Wales so you can't blame that loss on him. One of Ireland's best result last season (2nd test against NZ), he was on for 29 mins, which is the most he has played in any game in the last 12 months.

So it's Kidney fault ROG has been playing so badly, leaving him on the bench for so long??? It seems every mistake he's ever made is cos he's stiff coming off the bench. Something we can agree with!! Kidney out!!

P.S. he did play against Wales last year, got the last 5 min or so, but like I said I don't blame ROG for any defeat, he tried his best. I blame the mgt team who can't see his best isn't good enough.

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