Ireland's 6N training squad announcement (this wednesday)

First topic message reminder :

This Wednesday see's Declan Kidney announce possibly his final training squad for a competition as Ireland Head Coach. Indeed within the next 5 months or so Kidney's contract will expire and he may very well find himself looking for another job. Is this reason to throw caution to the wind? Many of us certainly hope so although some young and/or exciting players are now injured it looks like it will have less of a bang than it could have had if it had been announced 2 weeks ago.

Injuries rule out O'Connell which is a huge loss, as well as Marshall and Bowe who would have been hoping to be involved. Ferris is another who is out for what would appear most of the tournament if not the whole thing.

This time last year Kidney announced a 30 man training squad and a 23 man squad for the Wolfhounds game.

Ireland Training Squad (39):

Ireland Squad (club/province/international caps):
Michael Bent (Unattached/Leinster/2)
Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster/62)
Isaac Boss (Terenure College/Leinster/15)
Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster/3)
Tom Court (Malone/Ulster/29)
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster/23)
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster/71)
Keith Earls (Thomond/Munster/34)
Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College/Leinster/23)
Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon /Ulster/2)
Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster/1)
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster/35)
Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster/52) Captain
Iain Henderson (Queens University/Ulster/2)
Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster/4)
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)*
Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)*
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster/41)
David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster/2)
Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)*
Paul Marshall (Ballymena/Ulster/)*
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster/14)
Mike McCarthy (Buccaneers/Connacht/6)
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster/16)
Dave McSharry (Galwegians/Connacht/)*
Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster/22)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster/91)
Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster/120)
Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster/126)
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster/9)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster/47)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster/24)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster/23)
Jonathan Sexton (St.Mary's College/Leinster/34)
Lewis Stevenson (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster/)*
Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster/2)
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster/3)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster/49)
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster/3)

neilthom7 wrote:Anscombe also inherited a side that was a playing a more open style of rugby and was more willing to play that style of rugby all he had to do was to refine them a bit and build depth, which he has done well. Penney on the other hand took over a place that had played the same way for donkeys years and while the other way was proving to be more effective in place he has had to win them over and teach them some new tricks which in the case of ROG just hasn't worked so Penney is in a really tough spot.

Yes, but did you hear what Anscombe said when he was asked what he had changed coming into Ulster? Very little. He put a major emphasis on slowly changing things, very subtly and gradually. He's retained coaches who worked under McLaughlin and their fingerprints are still apparent- especially Dinger Bell. He's made subtle adjustments and he's changed some things, like he has the team doing much more full contact training.

He hasn't tried to impose a style like Penney- but its a different situation at Ulster.

I had not heard that Notch I guess it's pretty smart actually on his part, quietly quietly approach although again the players and management at Ulster are probably more willing to accept his style of play as we were already playing something similar I guess.

Horgan is a dreadful pundit. He is clearly too close to many of those he is there to critique (for lack of a better word). Frankie Sheahan gets wild abuse for looking after his clients from the commentary box (rightly so) but Horgan is equally poor IMO. I recall him and Wallace arguing the rights and wrongs of the tip tackle during the last RWC and David Wallace came across much more articulate and informed.

I don't think kidney should currently be the Irish coach and as I hinted earlier I would have probably left the captaincy with BOD but the idea that kidney has to come out and publicly defend his decision is nonsense. He is the coach, it is his call who he makes captain. Legend that he is, O'Driscoll isn't bigger than the team and I believe the next generation coming through will benefit from not having a singular player that they rely on so much.

neilthom7 wrote:That's another point while Ulster were done and dusted with most of their signings and letting go's before Anscombe came but crucially they left 1 NIQ signing for him it was only one but it allowed him to add his stamp he choose Hulk which was a great choice lol. Munster signed Downey which really says they weren't going to change to much as you don't sign downey for his passing or soft hands.

To play an expansive game the players need to be fast and versatile, wingers need to go inside and forwards need to know how to pass. Penney has promoted Sherry and Kilcoyne who can fit in with that style, similarly guys like O'Donnell, Dougall and DOC2 have all got more time in the team (even if it was through forced retirements). Stander has been recruited, so in the pack there is plenty of dynamism and handling skills. In the backs Downey isn't a distributor, neither is Earls (when he has to ship it on quickly). Then there is the back three who apart from Zebo lack telling pace. O'Dea is a great prospect and Jones is good enough, but I'd far rather see Earls and Howlett on the wings with Zebo at fullback, Keatley could play 12 and LLL 13. So guys in midfield who can time their pass so the ball goes where it needs to go, Earls and Zebo cutting lines at pace and Doug using his head to fill in where he's needed. ROG at 10 wouldn't be ideal but even he would have to stand flatter or it would be painfully obvious to the most diehard ROG supporter that his time had gone. Only then is the perfect environment created to bring in a guy like JJ who has all the skills to fit into it that style of play.

Standulstermen wrote:Horgan is a dreadful pundit. He is clearly too close to many of those he is there to critique (for lack of a better word). Frankie Sheahan gets wild abuse for looking after his clients from the commentary box (rightly so) but Horgan is equally poor IMO. I recall him and Wallace arguing the rights and wrongs of the tip tackle during the last RWC and David Wallace came across much more articulate and informed.

I don't think kidney should currently be the Irish coach and as I hinted earlier I would have probably left the captaincy with BOD but the idea that kidney has to come out and publicly defend his decision is nonsense. He is the coach, it is his call who he makes captain. Legend that he is, O'Driscoll isn't bigger than the team and I believe the next generation coming through will benefit from not having a singular player that they rely on so much.

In fairness, Alan Quinlan is actually proving quite unbiased and although he has yet to call on Rog to be dropped, he is at least open to criticising people he played with.

Flannery was in the Examiner today saying that Keatley would do just as well as Rog and that people should not worry.

The Great Aukster wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:That's another point while Ulster were done and dusted with most of their signings and letting go's before Anscombe came but crucially they left 1 NIQ signing for him it was only one but it allowed him to add his stamp he choose Hulk which was a great choice lol. Munster signed Downey which really says they weren't going to change to much as you don't sign downey for his passing or soft hands.

To play an expansive game the players need to be fast and versatile, wingers need to go inside and forwards need to know how to pass. Penney has promoted Sherry and Kilcoyne who can fit in with that style, similarly guys like O'Donnell, Dougall and DOC2 have all got more time in the team (even if it was through forced retirements). Stander has been recruited, so in the pack there is plenty of dynamism and handling skills. In the backs Downey isn't a distributor, neither is Earls (when he has to ship it on quickly). Then there is the back three who apart from Zebo lack telling pace. O'Dea is a great prospect and Jones is good enough, but I'd far rather see Earls and Howlett on the wings with Zebo at fullback, Keatley could play 12 and LLL 13. So guys in midfield who can time their pass so the ball goes where it needs to go, Earls and Zebo cutting lines at pace and Doug using his head to fill in where he's needed. ROG at 10 wouldn't be ideal but even he would have to stand flatter or it would be painfully obvious to the most diehard ROG supporter that his time had gone. Only then is the perfect environment created to bring in a guy like JJ who has all the skills to fit into it that style of play.

I would put Earls at full back before Zebo, if they were moving him out of 13, but tbh I'd rather they kept him there. I know you stay he doesn't have the hands but he does, he just has to show it on a consistent basis. Some of the best Munster moves in the last few years have come from him releasing the ball quickly. Off the top of my head I can remember the Zebo try against Northampton last year, and bowe against France, but a lot of moves wouldn't be on youtube.

Regarding Heaslip as captain he got his chance with BOD, POC and Best all missing in the Autumn. He did OK and obviously made an impression with DK so he is the man in possession - good decision by Kidney.

Nobody should be guaranteed a place - even BOD, every shirt should be earned every time. Horgan was part of a team under O'Sullivan where too many of the team were untouchable irrespective of how well their competition was playing and that principle is irrevocably ingrained into Shaggy.

valjester wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Horgan is a dreadful pundit. He is clearly too close to many of those he is there to critique (for lack of a better word). Frankie Sheahan gets wild abuse for looking after his clients from the commentary box (rightly so) but Horgan is equally poor IMO. I recall him and Wallace arguing the rights and wrongs of the tip tackle during the last RWC and David Wallace came across much more articulate and informed.

I don't think kidney should currently be the Irish coach and as I hinted earlier I would have probably left the captaincy with BOD but the idea that kidney has to come out and publicly defend his decision is nonsense. He is the coach, it is his call who he makes captain. Legend that he is, O'Driscoll isn't bigger than the team and I believe the next generation coming through will benefit from not having a singular player that they rely on so much.

In fairness, Alan Quinlan is actually proving quite unbiased and although he has yet to call on Rog to be dropped, he is at least open to criticising people he played with.

Flannery was in the Examiner today saying that Keatley would do just as well as Rog and that people should not worry.

I like Quinlan. He try's to be diplomatic but I get the sense he wants to see a more pragmatic approach to selection. Seems more thoughtful than a lot of pundits

Standulstermen wrote:

valjester wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Horgan is a dreadful pundit. He is clearly too close to many of those he is there to critique (for lack of a better word). Frankie Sheahan gets wild abuse for looking after his clients from the commentary box (rightly so) but Horgan is equally poor IMO. I recall him and Wallace arguing the rights and wrongs of the tip tackle during the last RWC and David Wallace came across much more articulate and informed.

I don't think kidney should currently be the Irish coach and as I hinted earlier I would have probably left the captaincy with BOD but the idea that kidney has to come out and publicly defend his decision is nonsense. He is the coach, it is his call who he makes captain. Legend that he is, O'Driscoll isn't bigger than the team and I believe the next generation coming through will benefit from not having a singular player that they rely on so much.

In fairness, Alan Quinlan is actually proving quite unbiased and although he has yet to call on Rog to be dropped, he is at least open to criticising people he played with.

Flannery was in the Examiner today saying that Keatley would do just as well as Rog and that people should not worry.

I like Quinlan. He try's to be diplomatic but I get the sense he wants to see a more pragmatic approach to selection. Seems more thoughtful than a lot of pundits

Yeah, and unlike Frankie doesn't have any vested interests. I can understand that with the Irish rugby community being so small it is hard to get people who are not involved and friendly with the players to some degree, but I wish Sky would stop employing people as co-commentators on games in which they were part of one of the clubs, it makes for terrible drivel being spouted and most people reaching for the mute button.

valjester wrote:I would put Earls at full back before Zebo, if they were moving him out of 13, but tbh I'd rather they kept him there. I know you stay he doesn't have the hands but he does, he just has to show it on a consistent basis. Some of the best Munster moves in the last few years have come from him releasing the ball quickly. Off the top of my head I can remember the Zebo try against Northampton last year, and bowe against France, but a lot of moves wouldn't be on youtube.

The inconsistency is exactly why I don't think he's a centre. All these guys are professional rugby players who practice these skills all the time, so every player on the pitch should be able to pass a rugby ball. It seems that far too often for every pass that Earls makes there is one he fluffs. I'm not talking about the ones that don't go to hand or end up in touch but the ones where the receiver has to stretch or break stride - that kills moves just as much. By far his greatest skill is his ability to step a player and he has the pace for wing so that's where I think he is most suited. Zebo has the potential to be a longer kicker and has the physique to be the last line of defence, he's also good under the high ball, which is why I think he could be a genuine Test class 15.

The Great Aukster wrote:
The inconsistency is exactly why I don't think he's a centre. All these guys are professional rugby players who practice these skills all the time, so every player on the pitch should be able to pass a rugby ball. It seems that far too often for every pass that Earls makes there is one he fluffs. I'm not talking about the ones that don't go to hand or end up in touch but the ones where the receiver has to stretch or break stride - that kills moves just as much. By far his greatest skill is his ability to step a player and he has the pace for wing so that's where I think he is most suited. Zebo has the potential to be a longer kicker and has the physique to be the last line of defence, he's also good under the high ball, which is why I think he could be a genuine Test class 15.

I don't really want to get into another argument over Earls but I don't share most people's concerns about his passing. I think it is for the most part good enough.

Zebo v Earls for full back is another discussion all together. I prefer Earls there due to the lines he runs, I wouldn't say there is much difference between the size of their boots, I remember Earls on one occasion against Clermont a few years back hitting the ball the length of Thomond park.

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

valjester wrote:
The thing with ROG is that he has made huge mistakes, that have either cost Munster scores or given scores to the opposition, in pretty much every game he has played this season. It is obvious that he is feeling the pressure from those behind him and he is trying to force the issue when he shouldn't. The stupid kick offs and 22s are mind blowingly poor play for someone so experienced.

The biggest thing that Keatley will bring, just by offering a running threat, is space to those outside him. Specifically Earls and Downey will no longer be getting ball and two men every time they receive a pass from their out half.

I couldn't agree more. I think there are some issues in Munster, I don't know whats going on down there. Obviously ROG has a lot of influence in the dressing room- even power- and supporters in the local and national press, as well as a central contract from the IRFU, so its not as simple as Penney just being able to drop him. It should be, but it isn't.

ROG isn't the only one who has mistakes. Don't forget Keatley has as much gametime as ROG at outhalf in the Heineken Cup and we struggled in those games as well.

Anthony Foley said today that the game plan now entails playing more moves off the scrumhalf, so maybe ROG is just doing what he is told to do.

I think its absolutely hilarious that you think that Penney would have a problem dropping ROG. Munster have never got all up tight about Munster players being dropped (the Munster ethos is that you are only minding the jersey). Kidney dropped Stringer for a HC QF and Foley (a former Munster captain out of the 22 for a final). Players and supporters are used to that now, so the only reason people would be upset by ROG being dropped is that his replacement wasn't as good as him.

That is a load of sh**e and you know it. What are you peddling such rubbish, it does your argument a disservice when you destroy any credibility you might hope to have by being unable to stick to facts.

Stringer had lost his position in the Irish squad by the time he was dropped by Munster, the positions are not comparable.

Keatley has had two starts in the HCup this season and I havn't seen anything better. Timewise he has got 181 minutes to O'Gara's 257mins. Overall he has got more gametime than O'Gara, certainly enough to know that there was no great improvement with him at outhalf. I haven't checked them myself, but on Munster fans, someone posted that Munster have scored more tries with O'Gara at outhalf which is damning of Keatley considering that his gametime this year is 964 minutes to O'Gara's 737 minutes.

Stringer started 1 6Ns games and was a sub in the rest just before he was dropped for the QF. He had also played in every game in the qualifying stages, so not only is that point irrelevant, it not correct to state that he had lost his position in the Irish squad (and he was still on a central contract, unlike his replacement Tomas O'Leary).

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:
ROG isn't the only one who has mistakes. Don't forget Keatley has as much gametime as ROG at outhalf in the Heineken Cup and we struggled in those games as well.

Anthony Foley said today that the game plan now entails playing more moves off the scrumhalf, so maybe ROG is just doing what he is told to do.

I think its absolutely hilarious that you think that Penney would have a problem dropping ROG. Munster have never got all up tight about Munster players being dropped (the Munster ethos is that you are only minding the jersey). Kidney dropped Stringer for a HC QF and Foley (a former Munster captain out of the 22 for a final). Players and supporters are used to that now, so the only reason people would be upset by ROG being dropped is that his replacement wasn't as good as him.

That is a load of sh**e and you know it. What are you peddling such rubbish, it does your argument a disservice when you destroy any credibility you might hope to have by being unable to stick to facts.

Stringer had lost his position in the Irish squad by the time he was dropped by Munster, the positions are not comparable.

Keatley has had two starts in the HCup this season and I havn't seen anything better. Timewise he has got 181 minutes to O'Gara's 257mins. Overall he has got more gametime than O'Gara, certainly enough to know that there was no great improvement with him at outhalf. I haven't checked them myself, but on Munster fans, someone posted that Munster have scored more tries with O'Gara at outhalf which is damning of Keatley considering that his gametime this year is 964 minutes to O'Gara's 737 minutes.

Stringer started 1 6Ns games and was a sub in the rest just before he was dropped for the QF. He had also played in every game in the qualifying stages, so not only is that point irrelevant, it not correct to state that he had lost his position in the Irish squad (and he was still on a central contract, unlike his replacement Tomas O'Leary).

Read what I bolded. Keatley started one game at full back and one at out half. You say that he has had just as much time at 10, this is not the case. Secondly Rog gets to play with the first place team all the time, he was also at outhalf against one of the worst teams in the league when Munster scored a bonus point victory, you are not comparing like with like.

The Stringer thing is completely irrelevant. I have no idea why you are bringing it into the discussion. Stringer had lost his place in the Irish squad when he was dropped by Munster, central contract or not, if he was still in the Irish squad I'm not so sure if he would have been dropped.

Jeysus, ROG talk again...

Starting squad v Wales:

Healy - Best - Ross
Ryan - McCarthy
Henry - Heaslip - O'Brien
Murray - Sexton
Gilroy - Darcy - BOD - Zebo
Kearney


Court - Strauss / Cronin - Bent / Fitzpartick - Henderson - O'Mahoney - Boss - Jackson - Fitzgerald

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:
ROG isn't the only one who has mistakes. Don't forget Keatley has as much gametime as ROG at outhalf in the Heineken Cup and we struggled in those games as well.

Anthony Foley said today that the game plan now entails playing more moves off the scrumhalf, so maybe ROG is just doing what he is told to do.

I think its absolutely hilarious that you think that Penney would have a problem dropping ROG. Munster have never got all up tight about Munster players being dropped (the Munster ethos is that you are only minding the jersey). Kidney dropped Stringer for a HC QF and Foley (a former Munster captain out of the 22 for a final). Players and supporters are used to that now, so the only reason people would be upset by ROG being dropped is that his replacement wasn't as good as him.

That is a load of sh**e and you know it. What are you peddling such rubbish, it does your argument a disservice when you destroy any credibility you might hope to have by being unable to stick to facts.

Stringer had lost his position in the Irish squad by the time he was dropped by Munster, the positions are not comparable.

Keatley has had two starts in the HCup this season and I havn't seen anything better. Timewise he has got 181 minutes to O'Gara's 257mins. Overall he has got more gametime than O'Gara, certainly enough to know that there was no great improvement with him at outhalf. I haven't checked them myself, but on Munster fans, someone posted that Munster have scored more tries with O'Gara at outhalf which is damning of Keatley considering that his gametime this year is 964 minutes to O'Gara's 737 minutes.

Stringer started 1 6Ns games and was a sub in the rest just before he was dropped for the QF. He had also played in every game in the qualifying stages, so not only is that point irrelevant, it not correct to state that he had lost his position in the Irish squad (and he was still on a central contract, unlike his replacement Tomas O'Leary).

Read what I bolded. Keatley started one game at full back and one at out half. You say that he has had just as much time at 10, this is not the case. Secondly Rog gets to play with the first place team all the time, he was also at outhalf against one of the worst teams in the league when Munster scored a bonus point victory, you are not comparing like with like.

The Stringer thing is completely irrelevant. I have no idea why you are bringing it into the discussion. Stringer had lost his place in the Irish squad when he was dropped by Munster, central contract or not, if he was still in the Ireland squad I'm not so sure if he would have been dropped.

I meant for Hcup & Magners (it was late when I posted that). Keatley had a proper preseason as well (3 starts). O'Gara got injured in the first HCup, so Keatley got to play at least 50 mins with Munster's first choice team and we know how that ended. A few first teams have been missing for both O'Gara & Keatley, so that isn't an argument.

The reason Peter Stringer was brought up is because you claimed that O'Gara isn't dropped because Penney is pandering to the fans. I pointed out that Stringer & Axel Foley were dropped for important games and the fans took it in their stride, you claimed he was already dropped from the Ireland squad (why that would be relevant as to why a Munster fan would accept the decision to drop Stringer for Munster, I don't know, but hey!) but in fact he had started one 6 Nations game and benched for the rest 2 weeks previous to him being dropped for the Gloucester game for Tomas O'Leary who wasn't in the Ireland squad at the time and he was the one that broke with the ball off the back of a lineout and fed it to Heaslip to score a try against Scotland in the 2009 grand slam winning year - a year after Tomas O'Leary had been dropped as first choice for Munster.

If you compare the provinces at the moment - Ulster have a dominating pack with a controlling scrumhalf. Leinster have a dominating pack with a controlling outhalf. Munster don't have a dominating pack (yet - it will take another 2/3 years to develop them) and Keatley isn't a controlling outhalf (but Murray is being given more responsibility in that area).

There is a Q&A session with Rob Penney up on the Munster website where he is asked about JJ Hanranhan. Penney said that the plan for JJ was to develop him at 12 mentored by ROG (the same way Dan Carter was developed).

Yeah, ROG is famed for his mentoring skills alright. Best of luck JJ!

Mickado wrote:Jeysus, ROG talk again...

Starting squad v Wales:

Healy - Best - Ross
Ryan - McCarthy
Henry - Heaslip - O'Brien
Murray - Sexton
Gilroy - Darcy - BOD - Zebo
Kearney


Court - Strauss / Cronin - Bent / Fitzpartick - Henderson - O'Mahoney - Boss - Jackson - Fitzgerald

Like the look of that squad.
That back 3 is quality.

Earls has done very little to warrant being in the 23 IMO

He's looked pretty poor IMO.

I like Mick's team I have to say. Really hope Murray and Sexton both take up where they have left off

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Earls has done very little to warrant being in the 23 IMO

Yup Luke Fitz's lengthy injury has been just the ticket for his inclusion.

red_stag wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Earls has done very little to warrant being in the 23 IMO

Yup Luke Fitz's lengthy injury has been just the ticket for his inclusion.

He’s played two games so far, looked very good, he’ll have another two games by then, if those trends continue, he’s done more than Earls.

Earls has been great this year.

Mickado wrote:Yeah, ROG is famed for his mentoring skills alright. Best of luck JJ!

I wouldn't worry about JJ. Seems to be a bit of a 'handful' by all reports. ROG keeping an eye on him might keep his career heading in the direction of Dan Carter's rather than Danny Cipriani's.

Mickado wrote:

red_stag wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Earls has done very little to warrant being in the 23 IMO

Yup Luke Fitz's lengthy injury has been just the ticket for his inclusion.

He’s played two games so far, looked very good, he’ll have another two games by then, if those trends continue, he’s done more than Earls.

Luke has a long way to go before catching Earls' try scoring record on the wing and without Tommy Bowe, Ireland need a few try scorers in the team.

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:
ROG isn't the only one who has mistakes. Don't forget Keatley has as much gametime as ROG at outhalf in the Heineken Cup and we struggled in those games as well.

Anthony Foley said today that the game plan now entails playing more moves off the scrumhalf, so maybe ROG is just doing what he is told to do.

I think its absolutely hilarious that you think that Penney would have a problem dropping ROG. Munster have never got all up tight about Munster players being dropped (the Munster ethos is that you are only minding the jersey). Kidney dropped Stringer for a HC QF and Foley (a former Munster captain out of the 22 for a final). Players and supporters are used to that now, so the only reason people would be upset by ROG being dropped is that his replacement wasn't as good as him.

That is a load of sh**e and you know it. What are you peddling such rubbish, it does your argument a disservice when you destroy any credibility you might hope to have by being unable to stick to facts.

Stringer had lost his position in the Irish squad by the time he was dropped by Munster, the positions are not comparable.

Keatley has had two starts in the HCup this season and I havn't seen anything better. Timewise he has got 181 minutes to O'Gara's 257mins. Overall he has got more gametime than O'Gara, certainly enough to know that there was no great improvement with him at outhalf. I haven't checked them myself, but on Munster fans, someone posted that Munster have scored more tries with O'Gara at outhalf which is damning of Keatley considering that his gametime this year is 964 minutes to O'Gara's 737 minutes.

Stringer started 1 6Ns games and was a sub in the rest just before he was dropped for the QF. He had also played in every game in the qualifying stages, so not only is that point irrelevant, it not correct to state that he had lost his position in the Irish squad (and he was still on a central contract, unlike his replacement Tomas O'Leary).

Read what I bolded. Keatley started one game at full back and one at out half. You say that he has had just as much time at 10, this is not the case. Secondly Rog gets to play with the first place team all the time, he was also at outhalf against one of the worst teams in the league when Munster scored a bonus point victory, you are not comparing like with like.

The Stringer thing is completely irrelevant. I have no idea why you are bringing it into the discussion. Stringer had lost his place in the Irish squad when he was dropped by Munster, central contract or not, if he was still in the Ireland squad I'm not so sure if he would have been dropped.

I meant for Hcup & Magners (it was late when I posted that). Keatley had a proper preseason as well (3 starts). O'Gara got injured in the first HCup, so Keatley got to play at least 50 mins with Munster's first choice team and we know how that ended. A few first teams have been missing for both O'Gara & Keatley, so that isn't an argument.

The reason Peter Stringer was brought up is because you claimed that O'Gara isn't dropped because Penney is pandering to the fans. I pointed out that Stringer & Axel Foley were dropped for important games and the fans took it in their stride, you claimed he was already dropped from the Ireland squad (why that would be relevant as to why a Munster fan would accept the decision to drop Stringer for Munster, I don't know, but hey!) but in fact he had started one 6 Nations game and benched for the rest 2 weeks previous to him being dropped for the Gloucester game for Tomas O'Leary who wasn't in the Ireland squad at the time and he was the one that broke with the ball off the back of a lineout and fed it to Heaslip to score a try against Scotland in the 2009 grand slam winning year - a year after Tomas O'Leary had been dropped as first choice for Munster.

If you compare the provinces at the moment - Ulster have a dominating pack with a controlling scrumhalf. Leinster have a dominating pack with a controlling outhalf. Munster don't have a dominating pack (yet - it will take another 2/3 years to develop them) and Keatley isn't a controlling outhalf (but Murray is being given more responsibility in that area).

There is a Q&A session with Rob Penney up on the Munster website where he is asked about JJ Hanranhan. Penney said that the plan for JJ was to develop him at 12 mentored by ROG (the same way Dan Carter was developed).

You can dress it up anyway you want but at the end of the day the brighest young player in the country isn't able to get into a very poor Munster team.

Not sure what I'm meant to be dressing up, but if you are referring to JJ, he is on the bench this weekend (and would be starting the B+I cup game if he wasn't).

Sin é wrote:
Keatley has had two starts in the HCup this season and I havn't seen anything better. Timewise he has got 181 minutes to O'Gara's 257mins. Overall he has got more gametime than O'Gara, certainly enough to know that there was no great improvement with him at outhalf. I haven't checked them myself, but on Munster fans, someone posted that Munster have scored more tries with O'Gara at outhalf which is damning of Keatley considering that his gametime this year is 964 minutes to O'Gara's 737 minutes.

Over the christmas period Keatley and ROG got roughly the same amount of gametime at outhalf. Here are the stats:

130min with Keatley at 10 Munster 40 - 13 Opposition.
110min with ROG at 10 Munster 6 - 24 Opposition.

I think that sums up how things are going.

profitius wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Keatley has had two starts in the HCup this season and I havn't seen anything better. Timewise he has got 181 minutes to O'Gara's 257mins. Overall he has got more gametime than O'Gara, certainly enough to know that there was no great improvement with him at outhalf. I haven't checked them myself, but on Munster fans, someone posted that Munster have scored more tries with O'Gara at outhalf which is damning of Keatley considering that his gametime this year is 964 minutes to O'Gara's 737 minutes.

Over the christmas period Keatley and ROG got roughly the same amount of gametime at outhalf. Here are the stats:

130min with Keatley at 10 Munster 40 - 13 Opposition.
110min with ROG at 10 Munster 6 - 24 Opposition.

I think that sums up how things are going.

?

The score was 3-26 when O'Gara went off last weekend against Edinburgh (at 64 mins) and Keatly came on.

The final score was 17-26 (i.e., Munster scored 17pts when O'Gara was outhalf, and 0 when Keatley was and Munster conceeded two tries).

Have to say, sin made a point about Fitz that can't be denied. How many test tries does he have from the wing for Ireland in all his caps? Is it around 3? He's not a prolific try scorer at all. I think he's a class player, but I don't think the wing is for him. He doesn't have the raw pace of a top class finisher. personally I see him as a player who could thrive in the center. Earls on the other hand, I've always rated as a deadly winger.

Seems the coaches in Ireland see it the other way around. Of course they must know better than me, but am I way off in my opinions on these two?

Feckless Rogue wrote:Have to say, sin made a point about Fitz that can't be denied. How many test tries does he have from the wing for Ireland in all his caps? Is it around 3? He's not a prolific try scorer at all. I think he's a class player, but I don't think the wing is for him. He doesn't have the raw pace of a top class finisher. personally I see him as a player who could thrive in the center. Earls on the other hand, I've always rated as a deadly winger.

Seems the coaches in Ireland see it the other way around. Of course they must know better than me, but am I way off in my opinions on these two?

Would have agreed with you completely on that 2 years ago but I feel Fitz has improved hugely since those days,he's just been unlucky that injury has meant nobody has got to see the new and improved Luke Fitz.I was so excited by his form before he got injured and it looks like he is coming back with no ill effects.I have nothing to back this up with but I feel that his try scoring rate will rise exponentially if he gets back in the Ireland team.

Earls on the other hand wants to be a centre and hasn't really played on the wing much this season,Zebo has that spot ahead of him imo but who knows what Deccie thinks.

Old Ireland with ROG standing deep and the wingers hardly seeing the ball suits a player like Earls. Even if he gets slow ball he can jink space for himself and has a nose for the line.

Old Ireland doesn't suit a player like Fitzgerald because he relies on running lines to exploit gaps immediately they appear and that means quick ball and slick passes across the backline.

New Ireland with Sexton standing flat and the ball moving quickly where the defence is weakest suits both Earls and Fitz on the wing (don't think either are suited to that game at centre).

It is completely futile to draw any conclusions from scoring statistics out of the context they occurred.

ausker - Fitz is hardly a prolific try scorer at club either - 26 tries in 101 games for Leinster (about 1 in every 4 games) isn't great for a test winger at club level. (Denis Hickie was about 1 in 2.5/3). Fitz's problem is that he continually over runs passes.

red_stag wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Earls has done very little to warrant being in the 23 IMO

Yup Luke Fitz's lengthy injury has been just the ticket for his inclusion.

Not sure that I said 'I think Luke should be' . I'd have Trimble, Zebo and McFadden

The form wingers in Ireland this season are Zebo and Trimble. Fitz and earls are some way behind those two. Where Gilroy is, is based on his age and also how much stock kidney puts in his international debut

Kidney is in the Sports Ground tonight Henshaw showing early on why he is in the Ireland squad with a lovely run

neilthom7 wrote:Kidney is in the Sports Ground tonight Henshaw showing early on why he is in the Ireland squad with a lovely run

He looks very good, very well balanced. He plays 13 too apparently.

Standulstermen wrote:The form wingers in Ireland this season are Zebo and Trimble. Fitz and earls are some way behind those two. Where Gilroy is, is based on his age and also how much stock kidney puts in his international debut

McFadden is in better form than Gilroy as a winger I think.

Henshaw is such a talent, his instincts and balance are out of this world good

O'Halloran is also having a very good game

neilthom7 wrote:Kidney is in the Sports Ground tonight Henshaw showing early on why he is in the Ireland squad with a lovely run

What has Eoin Griffin been like this season, he looked full of potential a year or so ago, but haven't seen/heard much this season

He has been injured a lot this season, and hasn't had too many chances to shine, although he has shown glimpses of what he can do. He needs to be more consistent though. He can be be anonymous for some portions of the game. Not entirely his fault though.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:The form wingers in Ireland this season are Zebo and Trimble. Fitz and earls are some way behind those two. Where Gilroy is, is based on his age and also how much stock kidney puts in his international debut

McFadden is in better form than Gilroy as a winger I think.

Henshaw is such a talent, his instincts and balance are out of this world good

Wouldn't disagree with your first point. McFadden will never hold down a spot internationally (dropped for leinsters big game this weekend) though and it doesn't change the fact the first two names should be head and shoulders above anyone else

Rory_Gallagher wrote:He has been injured a lot this season, and hasn't had too many chances to shine, although he has shown glimpses of what he can do. He needs to be more consistent though. He can be be anonymous for some portions of the game. Not entirely his fault though.

I agree. Griffin has underewhelmed me a bit and McSharry and henshaw have been their standouts. He is young though and his injury profile isnt good. Plenty of time for him

Personally I would have dropped Nacewa form wise. I get your point though he is just a step below that level.

God O'Halloran is having an UNREAL game

Standulstermen wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:The form wingers in Ireland this season are Zebo and Trimble. Fitz and earls are some way behind those two. Where Gilroy is, is based on his age and also how much stock kidney puts in his international debut

McFadden is in better form than Gilroy as a winger I think.

Henshaw is such a talent, his instincts and balance are out of this world good

Wouldn't disagree with your first point. McFadden will never hold down a spot internationally (dropped for leinsters big game this weekend) though and it doesn't change the fact the first two names should be head and shoulders above anyone else

I agree McFadden may never be a great international but a lot of that was down to his defense. But he looks to have really improved on that front. His defensive performance against Clermont away was outstanding. Lets not right him off just yet.

I would be righting him off LF4L purely because he is now 27 odd and can't get abregular spot for Leinster with everyone fit. Again I don't think it is his fault. I thinkj he has been shafted by different coaches and his versatility.

A big part of his problem is that he has never specialised in one position which is cruelly exposed at international level. If I were the new Ireland coach I would be looking at the younger lads thinking there is a lot more upside and ferg would need to be playing unreal stuff to feature.

Standulstermen wrote:The form wingers in Ireland this season are Zebo and Trimble. Fitz and earls are some way behind those two. Where Gilroy is, is based on his age and also how much stock kidney puts in his international debut

Em, both Luke & Earls have been injured (and apart from that Earls has played about 20 minutes on the wing in the last year, so its hard to know if he has any form or not there).

Well, the fact they have less gametime should count against them. Though Fitzgerald has looked good since he's been back and will get more gametime this weekend and in the Wolfhounds game. Feel like he could be a late bolter.

Earls is playing exclusively at 13, so I think either he starts there or he doesn't. We have enough guys playing well on the wing even with Bowe injured that it would be ridiculous to move him out when he hasn't been playing that position.

Notch wrote:Well, the fact they have less gametime should count against them. Though Fitzgerald has looked good since he's been back and will get more gametime this weekend and in the Wolfhounds game. Feel like he could be a late bolter.

Earls is playing exclusively at 13, so I think either he starts there or he doesn't. We have enough guys playing well on the wing even with Bowe injured that it would be ridiculous to move him out when he hasn't been playing that position.

Earls will be starting somewhere in the team, and he will perform well, like he generally does for Ireland. Fitzgerald has been back for two games, give him a bit more time before we start pushing for him to be straight back in, his last Ireland performances weren't exactly excellent. He needs time concentrating on getting back fully fit, and then he will be involved as he is an excellent player.

McFadden isn't going to make it, his defence may have improved but he is not the answer. There are younger, better players ahead of him.

I'm not advocating fitz's inclusion although if he has 2 more great games then he deserves it, but when you say earls will be starting somewhere...

A) is that a prediction of dk's selection?
B) is that what you want?
C) why should he start ahead of others who are playing better than him?

He starts ahead of O'Driscoll then? Or BOD moves to 12.

It's just stupid when you have Zebo, Gilroy, Trimble, McFadden and Fitzgerald all playing well on the wing. There's no rule that certain players have to be involved.