Ireland's 6N training squad announcement (this wednesday)

First topic message reminder :

This Wednesday see's Declan Kidney announce possibly his final training squad for a competition as Ireland Head Coach. Indeed within the next 5 months or so Kidney's contract will expire and he may very well find himself looking for another job. Is this reason to throw caution to the wind? Many of us certainly hope so although some young and/or exciting players are now injured it looks like it will have less of a bang than it could have had if it had been announced 2 weeks ago.

Injuries rule out O'Connell which is a huge loss, as well as Marshall and Bowe who would have been hoping to be involved. Ferris is another who is out for what would appear most of the tournament if not the whole thing.

This time last year Kidney announced a 30 man training squad and a 23 man squad for the Wolfhounds game.

Ireland Training Squad (39):

Ireland Squad (club/province/international caps):
Michael Bent (Unattached/Leinster/2)
Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster/62)
Isaac Boss (Terenure College/Leinster/15)
Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster/3)
Tom Court (Malone/Ulster/29)
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster/23)
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster/71)
Keith Earls (Thomond/Munster/34)
Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College/Leinster/23)
Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon /Ulster/2)
Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster/1)
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster/35)
Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster/52) Captain
Iain Henderson (Queens University/Ulster/2)
Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster/4)
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)*
Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)*
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster/41)
David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster/2)
Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)*
Paul Marshall (Ballymena/Ulster/)*
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster/14)
Mike McCarthy (Buccaneers/Connacht/6)
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster/16)
Dave McSharry (Galwegians/Connacht/)*
Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster/22)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster/91)
Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster/120)
Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster/126)
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster/9)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster/47)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster/24)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster/23)
Jonathan Sexton (St.Mary's College/Leinster/34)
Lewis Stevenson (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster/)*
Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster/2)
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster/3)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster/49)
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster/3)

valjester wrote:

profitius wrote:On the flip side you could argue that Court won't win too many penalties against Adam Jones and all Healy have to do is hold his own there which he is capable of doing.

Exactly, Healy is the superior player. Personally Notch, I think you are overrating Court, to call him destructive is slightly hyperbolic.

Not on form he isn't. Some posters have called for fewer automatic selections yet here we have a perfect example of where arguably the form LH in European rugby (the opinion of not just Ulster fans but has been plastered all over the British press, although naturally enough not in the south it seems) should be cast aside because Healy is the incumbent. Listen, since Ferris is injured Healy is my favourite Irish player. You can look back and I argued strongly that he should be next Irish captain instead of Heaslip. But Court is the form Irish LH and arguably by a distance at present. It doesn't mean he is a better player, but he is playing better than any of his competitors and he won't even make the bench for the opening Six Nations match. But ho hum, I guess if you are an Ulsterman with an Australian accent your face just doesn't fit. In comparison when Sean O'Brien was playing out of his skin struggling to get into the Irish side a couple of seasons ago this board was up in arms.

Court has been consistently good against decent THs like Castro, Cole, Zirakashvili and Mujati, but the Irish scrum can never be an offensive weapon because Ross can't go 80 minutes. Indeed if MR gets injured and can't play, the scrum is a point of weakness for Ireland so basing any kind of strategy on scrum domination is far too risky. Therefore the strategy should be to get by in the scrum but exploit the advantage in the loose.

So I have to agree with Kidney in his choice of Healy, his scrummaging is fine but he is the best ball carrying LH around and Ireland really need that if they are to play a more open ball handling game. Kilcoyne is a closer like for like replacement for Healy than Court, so should get all the experience he can off the bench.

Well he destroyed Michael Bent a few weeks ago anyways ......

valjester wrote:

profitius wrote:On the flip side you could argue that Court won't win too many penalties against Adam Jones and all Healy have to do is hold his own there which he is capable of doing.

Exactly, Healy is the superior player. Personally Notch, I think you are overrating Court, to call him destructive is slightly hyperbolic.

Well what do you call a loosehead who is winning penalties and forcing opposition tightheads backwards? I mean its stupid to overrate a player and its stupid to underrate a player. Truth is, Tom Court is looking better in the scrum than any other loosehead out there in the Heineken Cup. He's in the form of his life. If he gets called upon, he will do very well indeed. I have no idea why people can't see this.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I would say I am being realistic. People seemed happy enough for him to be dropped for Bent during the Autumn internationals don't forget.

I doubt many people are calling for that now. I know that no Leinster fans are. Bent has been dissapointing since his cameos in the AI's. He's been struggling a bit against Rabo opposition. Im sure he will improve a lot over the next year though.

rodders wrote:Well he destroyed Michael Bent a few weeks ago anyways ......

Not really much of an achievement as Bent struggled against the Zebre scrum not to long ago. He beeds time with Greg Feek to improve.

Yes there does need to be fewer automatic selections but we need to be thoughtful about it. As far as I could tell notch wasn't calling for Healy to be dropped either.

Despite Courts form Healy has still a massive amount of credit and has been playing well himself. That has to be married with Courts resurgence. Kilcoyne in fairness is playing well too and is younger which I think should be weighed up ( others will disagree)

I have no issue with working towards a new generation of guys who will be around in 2015 and beyond. What frustrates is that thatlogic isn't equally applied. According to the head cheerleader Thornley, Henderson is being considered as a backrow only which means that O'Callaghan is safely ensconced in the squad again.

There's no point talking about ROG again because 90% all feel the same way. D'arcy was similar in the autumn but that has eased unless McSharry tears it up for the wolfhounds (and good luck to him).

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

rodders wrote:Well he destroyed Michael Bent a few weeks ago anyways ......

Not really much of an achievement as Bent struggled against the Zebre scrum not to long ago. He beeds time with Greg Feek to improve.

Maybe he's just not that good, maybe he's just bedding in. Give him some time. Feek is the guy that scouted him anyway.

On Court, let him come on and have a crack at Adam Jones. He may well do better than you expect (though Adam Jones is one of my favourite tightheads, outstanding 3). We've got Healy and Court so use them for 50/30 split depending on the strategy.

Court minus Afoa = Northerner with a funny accent who flops around a bit. Starting him would be almost as funny as making Jamie and his hair captain.....

DOD wrote:Court minus Afoa = Northerner with a funny accent who flops around a bit. Starting him would be almost as funny as making Jamie and his hair captain.....

Really do you watch much rugby, I don't think Healy should be dropped for Court but to say without Afoa he is no good is just

Why don't you watch the video on the this page there are several scrums in it. The front row in them are Court, Herring and Macklin thats Herring not Best and Macklin who is just about our 3rd choice tighthead and only because we don't have another option, watch it then tell me he can't scrum
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20876816

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
Not on form he isn't. Some posters have called for fewer automatic selections yet here we have a perfect example of where arguably the form LH in European rugby (the opinion of not just Ulster fans but has been plastered all over the British press, although naturally enough not in the south it seems) should be cast aside because Healy is the incumbent. Listen, since Ferris is injured Healy is my favourite Irish player. You can look back and I argued strongly that he should be next Irish captain instead of Heaslip. But Court is the form Irish LH and arguably by a distance at present. It doesn't mean he is a better player, but he is playing better than any of his competitors and he won't even make the bench for the opening Six Nations match. But ho hum, I guess if you are an Ulsterman with an Australian accent your face just doesn't fit. In comparison when Sean O'Brien was playing out of his skin struggling to get into the Irish side a couple of seasons ago this board was up in arms.

International rugby is played at a faster pace and Ireland are trying (I hope) to play a fast paced game. They need mobile players and all teams need as many ball carriers as possible.

I wouldn't mind seeing Court on the bench ahead of Kilcoyne, just to have a different type. Court is playing very well in fairness and if there is bad conditions in any match then I'd play Court.

If we are selecting a purely mobile pack then....

Healy, Cronin, Bent, Henderson, McCarthy, O'Brien, O'Donnell, Diack

....Would be your goal. It doesn't work like that though. I also have seen little evidence of a fast paced game other than against a tired and bedraggled Argentina.

Yes, we generate quick ball at times but we don't really do anything with it. Our angles of running are (by and large) very poor as is our support play. Hopefully with more time kiss can get something going.

I don't see the point in a fast paced game if your centres pose little or no breaking threat. That's not a criticism of D'arcy and BOD but rather an acknowledgement that neither of them has a break anymore. In the same way we criticised ROG for posing no threat to the gainline and allowing a drift defence to reap rewards our centres have been somewhat similar. There is no ideal answer to that though. Earls is a breaking that but lacks the awareness and distributing ability. Cave has the nous to play the position but lacks top end speed. Neither are in sparkling form.

It's imperfect but mobility and fast pace isn't something I associate with Deccies coaching style. The grand slam wasn't won that way and in truth the only gamei can recall where we have played exceptionally well and won in that manner was against England at the Aviva in 2011 (I think)

Court is one of the fastest props around, and Ulster are playing a much higher tempo game than Ireland, so mobility isn't an issue.

Healy would be the first name on the Irish teamsheet for me but I'm disappointed that Courts form isn't being acknowledged more by the selectors,fans and media outside Ulster. For sure one of the European players of the season this year.

Irrespective of who's got the edge in the front row it will unfortunately come down to how this area is reffed. It remains a mystery to me and a great source of frustration when I see teams penalised when it seems like the other prop has gone down or dropped his bind or just accidentally slipped. Here's hoping

....Here's hoping Adam jones slips his bind and gets penalised......

Seriously though, good point actually. Healy tends to struggle badly against Jones so is their a case that Court should actually start?

Rodders sorry it will be Kilcoyne. Tom Court (aka the Mick O'Driscoll of propping) has done ok but we have a promising young prop doing well. In he comes. Tom, take it easy. Throw another few shrimp on the barbie and put your feet up.

rodders wrote:Court is one of the fattest props around.

Amen brother.

red_stag wrote:

rodders wrote:Court is one of the fattest props around.

Amen brother.

p.s. Mick O'Driscoll was awesome .

That he was Rodders.

An awesome rugby man not appreciated in his own time. An apt way to describe Court.

Good comparision Stag....a bit like Leo Cullen, Paddy Wallace and Willie Falloon. One's for the purists, not yer fairweather type fans.... .

Falloon is a strange one. I assumed he was a youngster who just never lived up to the hype.

Cullen, Wallace, Jennings, Mick O'Driscoll, Court etc are at least established Heineken Cup players who have their big admirers and critics over a long long time.

red_stag wrote:Rodders sorry it will be Kilcoyne. Tom Court (aka the Mick O'Driscoll of propping) has done ok but we have a promising young prop doing well. In he comes. Tom, take it easy. Throw another few shrimp on the barbie and put your feet up.

If only we applied that logic across the rest of the team I would be a lot more positive.

Could there be a pro-munster bias in selection? Young Munster lads seem to be promoted quicker to Ireland squads; Kilcoyne, Zebo and POM; than players from other provinces (Gilroy, Cave, Madigan, P Marshall, Touhy). And don't seem to be dropped out of the squad either ROG, DOC, Earls?
There are of course exceptions.

I'm not saying Deccie is biaist, but perhaps he tends to go with what he knows when the pressure is on (needs results- keep the old heads; calls for more younger players- picks guys he has worked with before i.e. under-age at Munster), he know Munster up and down. The same cannot be said for the other provinces.

This isn't an accusation but a discussion point. Is there a trend there or not?

Yup your right. Kidney is extremely biased. He loves guys like Zebo and Murray and Kilcoyne that were kids when he left Munster 5 years ago. He hates everyone else. Good shout.

red_stag wrote:Rodders sorry it will be Kilcoyne. Tom Court (aka the Mick O'Driscoll of propping) has done ok but we have a promising young prop doing well. In he comes. Tom, take it easy. Throw another few shrimp on the barbie and put your feet up.

Exactly the problem with the Irish rugby and many Irish fans in general. Arguably the form prop in the northern hemisphere (that doesn't mean he's the best, just in the best form) doesn't even get a spot on the bench. But sure, at least he's from Munster right. Gotta keep that head in the sand set of fans and media happy. The same people who say there's no point having inexperienced players on the bench for a 10 minute runout to justify ROG's selection also want Kilcoyne in there 'for experience bejaysus'. Utter joke.

Hooky - Im clearly being tongue in cheek re: Court.

red_stag wrote:Hooky - Im clearly being tongue in cheek re: Court.

Stag I know you are. I meant to say that first line in but forgot, cause you know, I was having a rant.

Unfortunately it seems to be the rather prevalent opinion expressed by many fans, but especially in the Irish media. It's a really sad fact that if you want even half decent rugby analysis the first point of call is WhiffofCordite or Demented Mole and not the Irish press. There really is a dreadful partitionist attitude still which is sad when we finally have three strong provinces and one where finally their players are also being recognised in extended squads.

red_stag wrote:Yup your right. Kidney is extremely biased. He loves guys like Zebo and Murray and Kilcoyne that were kids when he left Munster 5 years ago. He hates everyone else. Good shout.

+1

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

red_stag wrote:Hooky - Im clearly being tongue in cheek re: Court.

Stag I know you are. I meant to say that first line in but forgot, cause you know, I was having a rant.

Unfortunately it seems to be the rather prevalent opinion expressed by many fans, but especially in the Irish media. It's a really sad fact that if you want even half decent rugby analysis the first point of call is WhiffofCordite or Demented Mole and not the Irish press. There really is a dreadful partitionist attitude still which is sad when we finally have three strong provinces and one where finally their players are also being recognised in extended squads.

Hook, what you are saying is so true. It used to be that we would look to see what Gerry or any of the other notables in Irish Rugby journalism had to say about the team, but they're just mouthpieces for the IRFU or their own biases. The Mole and Egg/Palla on WOC are the closest thing we have to real commentators on the state of Irish rugby as it stands, bar Quinlan, who's column is probably the best of a bad bunch!

The fact is that all four provinces are stronger as a collective than they have been ever. Yes Munster are rebuilding, yes Leinster are out of the HC, but that doesn't take away from the fact that the likely Lions captain will be Irish, there's a good chance that there could be a pair of Irish teams in the two European finals this year, there's 3 Irish teams in the top 6 for the Rabo12, and finally we have a crop of young, skillful players coming through who have the ability to play the style of rugby that might see us through the next decade as one of the top teams in the world...

As Gibson would say, "BELIEVE!"

To give a serious answer to The Goon it is just the way the cycles go.

Initially we saw a raft of young Leinster players really getting their chances for Ireland under Kidney - Sexton, Healy, McLaughlin, Toner, O'Brien, Ruddock, Fitzgerald, Kearney, McFadden etc.

Since then most of Munsters old boys team have retired. This has meant Murray, Zebo, O'Mahony, Kilcoyne, Ryan etc have all emerged as starting first team players.

At Ulster the same can't really be said. Where are the young Irish players? They are still breaking through by and large. Gilroy, P.Marshall, Henderson, L.Marshall are not starters yet.

I think its really only Cave who could feel aggrieved.

Ah stag. Henderson, Luke Marshall and Gilroy could all be considered starters. Sure they are rotated but they start enough games, in Hendersons case maybe too many given this is his first season.

Sadly not much can be done a regards Luke as he is injured. Gilroy seems to be in the mix and Henderson will drop down I think. Jackson is a starter and while his form has dipped a little he is still light years ahead of ROG.

Stag are you telling me that Court, Diack and Payne aren't young Irish talent?

Standulstermen wrote:Ah stag. Henderson, Luke Marshall and Gilroy could all be considered starters.

Paddy Wallace starts ahead of Luke Marshall
Andrew Trimble starts ahead of Craig Gilroy
Stephen Ferris starts ahead of Iain Henderson

Agree that Jackson is much better option than ROG.

There will always be 1-2 selections we dont agree with. I see mass exaggeration of how conservative we are in selection.

Marshall was starting ahead of Paddy before he got injured?

Stevie Ferris is back?? Great news Stag! Must have missed that one!

Seriously though, as with all top sides we now have a squad rotation policy so it is inaccurate to say player x starts ahead of player y. When you are going for a league-Heino double you have to shuffle the cards a bit from week to week.

red_stag wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Ah stag. Henderson, Luke Marshall and Gilroy could all be considered starters.

Paddy Wallace starts ahead of Luke Marshall
Andrew Trimble starts ahead of Craig Gilroy
Stephen Ferris starts ahead of Iain Henderson

Agree that Jackson is much better option than ROG.

There will always be 1-2 selections we dont agree with. I see mass exaggeration of how conservative we are in selection.

Totally agree.
I think it is our tactics that are the conservative issues. We are playing to a game plan that has not been effective since early 2010

Also the not having a back up kicker or feeling we can give the kicking duties to someone outside of OH. Things like that show us as very backward.

Pete no one outside the 10's place kick at provincial level so you can't blame Kidney for that.

Outside ROG I'm not sure we have a top class place kicker anyways. Sexton and Jackson are hot and cold and Madigan is just...er cold. Keatley would be the best of the rest.

Just wait Rodders. Ulster will get 12 in the Ireland squad. THEN you will be sorry as you lose to Zebras during the 6N

rodders wrote:Pete no one outside the 10's place kick at provincial level so you can't blame Kidney for that.

Outside ROG I'm not sure we have a top class place kicker anyways. Sexton and Jackson are hot and cold and Madigan is just...er cold. Keatley would be the best of the rest.

Cough Cough. F McFadden. He even has an Ulster name ffs.

Hard to kick goals from the bench Jen ......

Kearney took a few shots at goal for the Lions I seem to remember.

Thomond has seen Murray kick and kick well.

McFadden is an excellent kicker.

Madigan is actually pretty alright his percentages ain't too shabby. I'd rate him above Jackson in goal kicking terms but he did get eased in to it last season

rodders wrote:Pete no one outside the 10's place kick at provincial level so you can't blame Kidney for that.

Outside ROG I'm not sure we have a top class place kicker anyways. Sexton and Jackson are hot and cold and Madigan is just...er cold. Keatley would be the best of the rest.

Keatley, ROG, Madigan and Sexton all over 80% in the league this year.

Mickado wrote:

rodders wrote:Pete no one outside the 10's place kick at provincial level so you can't blame Kidney for that.

Outside ROG I'm not sure we have a top class place kicker anyways. Sexton and Jackson are hot and cold and Madigan is just...er cold. Keatley would be the best of the rest.

Keatley, ROG, Madigan and Sexton all over 80% in the league this year.

Any idea what their kicking percentages are in the Heineken Cup. Keatley has been excellent this year in the Rabo, but he goes to pieces in the Heineken Cup (40% last weekend).

red_stag wrote:To give a serious answer to The Goon it is just the way the cycles go.

Initially we saw a raft of young Leinster players really getting their chances for Ireland under Kidney - Sexton, Healy, McLaughlin, Toner, O'Brien, Ruddock, Fitzgerald, Kearney, McFadden etc.

Since then most of Munsters old boys team have retired. This has meant Murray, Zebo, O'Mahony, Kilcoyne, Ryan etc have all emerged as starting first team players.

At Ulster the same can't really be said. Where are the young Irish players? They are still breaking through by and large. Gilroy, P.Marshall, Henderson, L.Marshall are not starters yet.

I think its really only Cave who could feel aggrieved.

Yeah, fair enough. The young Munster lads deserve their place and have all stepped up when asked so no complaints. I just look at how well Ulster are playing but don't see that reflected in the XV or XXIII as much. I defo think Cave has been shafted, is he good enough? We don't know, he never got a real shot.
I just wish there was a clear strategy. Develop the younger players or pick the best regardless of age. Pick one and put that in place across the board.

I mean you are looking at maybe 3 Ulster starters and maybe another 2 on the bench. Not a great return for the form team in Europe. This is just looking at the likely team sheet without going further in depth. 5 of 23 isn't a lot.

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:

rodders wrote:Pete no one outside the 10's place kick at provincial level so you can't blame Kidney for that.

Outside ROG I'm not sure we have a top class place kicker anyways. Sexton and Jackson are hot and cold and Madigan is just...er cold. Keatley would be the best of the rest.

Keatley, ROG, Madigan and Sexton all over 80% in the league this year.

Any idea what their kicking percentages are in the Heineken Cup. Keatley has been excellent this year in the Rabo, but he goes to pieces in the Heineken Cup (40% last weekend).

Exactly sinbo ... its not all about percentages, its about nailing those pressure and difficult kicks in big games. ROG is the only one you'd bet your house on.

If only there was some other way to score points in rugby, they could call it an 'attempt' and it could be worth even more points! By Jove I think I'm onto something!

Wolfhounds team posted on other thread for those interested....

Anyone see that Guscott is predicting Zebo and Trimble to be the Irish wingers for the 6N? Is this madness or has Jerry actually been watching some rugby!?!

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:Anyone see that Guscott is predicting Zebo and Trimble to be the Irish wingers for the 6N? Is this madness or has Jerry actually been watching some rugby!?!

Gilroy and McFadden it is.

red_stag wrote:

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:Anyone see that Guscott is predicting Zebo and Trimble to be the Irish wingers for the 6N? Is this madness or has Jerry actually been watching some rugby!?!

Gilroy and McFadden it is.

I was going to say Earls and McFadden, but that works too Stag!

Gusgott