Ireland's 6N training squad announcement (this wednesday)

First topic message reminder :

This Wednesday see's Declan Kidney announce possibly his final training squad for a competition as Ireland Head Coach. Indeed within the next 5 months or so Kidney's contract will expire and he may very well find himself looking for another job. Is this reason to throw caution to the wind? Many of us certainly hope so although some young and/or exciting players are now injured it looks like it will have less of a bang than it could have had if it had been announced 2 weeks ago.

Injuries rule out O'Connell which is a huge loss, as well as Marshall and Bowe who would have been hoping to be involved. Ferris is another who is out for what would appear most of the tournament if not the whole thing.

This time last year Kidney announced a 30 man training squad and a 23 man squad for the Wolfhounds game.

Ireland Training Squad (39):

Ireland Squad (club/province/international caps):
Michael Bent (Unattached/Leinster/2)
Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster/62)
Isaac Boss (Terenure College/Leinster/15)
Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster/3)
Tom Court (Malone/Ulster/29)
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster/23)
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster/71)
Keith Earls (Thomond/Munster/34)
Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College/Leinster/23)
Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon /Ulster/2)
Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster/1)
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster/35)
Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster/52) Captain
Iain Henderson (Queens University/Ulster/2)
Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster/4)
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)*
Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)*
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster/41)
David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster/2)
Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)*
Paul Marshall (Ballymena/Ulster/)*
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster/14)
Mike McCarthy (Buccaneers/Connacht/6)
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster/16)
Dave McSharry (Galwegians/Connacht/)*
Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster/22)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster/91)
Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster/120)
Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster/126)
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster/9)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster/47)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster/24)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster/23)
Jonathan Sexton (St.Mary's College/Leinster/34)
Lewis Stevenson (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster/)*
Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster/2)
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster/3)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster/49)
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster/3)

Ulster do indeed although it is frequently just a kind of injury update in negative.

Just seemed weird when there's only the 23 on it.

Irish Boys - Afternoon - Just wondering how you think your boys are going to do against us welsh rabble in Feb - Cheers lads

RubyGuby wrote:Irish Boys - Afternoon - Just wondering how you think your boys are going to do against us welsh rabble in Feb - Cheers lads

24-19 to Wales ....

Many of out team are just Amlin Cup rabble. Shouldn't give you too much trouble

...and I'm never wrong Ruby .....

Feck you Rodders - I know what your up to - Now tell me how you really really think you'll get on against Howleys Howlers

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Many of out team are just Amlin Cup rabble. Shouldn't give you too much trouble

We can only dream of the Amlin Cup

...hard to say Ruby. Fixtues look good for Ireland if we can get a win in this one.

Wales start as favourites for me.... a lot at stake for both sides in this one... Wales will have the edge in the scrum if Adam Jones is available and that could be key....wouldn't read much into the regions form....

Scrum- Wales by a bit
Lineout- Ireland by a bit
Attack- Wales by a lot
Defence- Ireland by a bit

I'd say on paper Wales should win this one. Home advantage helps too although you guys are really struggling for halfbacks it seems which are obviously key positions

Appreciate your views Pete - Its a tough one to call - I actually think Phillips at 9 and Biggar at 10 is a very good partnership - we'll have to wait and see - You have a decent coach in Deccie and we have no one and that could be a key factor.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:In terms of lads with 0 caps getting any game time (a question asked earlier) I can't see many getting in on the act.

Possibly Marshall if someone gets injured well in to the tournament.

Maybe Keatley or Jackson if someone gets injured.

Can't see anyone else bustling in but we have a load of guys on <10 caps

Hate to be pedantic but Keatley has been capped.

RubyGuby wrote:Appreciate your views Pete - Its a tough one to call - I actually think Phillips at 9 and Biggar at 10 is a very good partnership - we'll have to wait and see - You have a decent coach in Deccie and we have no one and that could be a key factor.

Your welcome to him Ruby

Golden wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Appreciate your views Pete - Its a tough one to call - I actually think Phillips at 9 and Biggar at 10 is a very good partnership - we'll have to wait and see - You have a decent coach in Deccie and we have no one and that could be a key factor.

Your welcome to him Ruby

Breaking exclusive: Jamie Heaslip comes out of the closet and reveals his homosexual tendencies towards Declan Kidney

"I nearly had to stop myself jumping across the table to kiss him, which would have made it really awkward in a room with just two guys"

"I've been feeling really giddy and haven't stopped smiling. There were all sorts of emotions flying around. I made the obligatory call to the parents."

"I'm still wet behind the ears so it's great"

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/2013/0123/364118-major-delight-for-ireland-captain-heaslip/

Fair play to Jamie on getting such a heavy burden off his chest.

red_stag wrote:Breaking exclusive: Jamie Heaslip comes out of the closet and reveals his homosexual tendencies towards Declan Kidney

"I nearly had to stop myself jumping across the table to kiss him, which would have made it really awkward in a room with just two guys"

"I've been feeling really giddy and haven't stopped smiling. There were all sorts of emotions flying around. I made the obligatory call to the parents."

"I'm still wet behind the ears so it's great"

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/2013/0123/364118-major-delight-for-ireland-captain-heaslip/

Fair play to Jamie on getting such a heavy burden off his chest.

Haha! Very good Stag, very good!
I'm glad you made a joke of this otherwise Sin or DOD may have said something more serious on the matter!

[quote="Siné"]or all we know, Murray could be another option then. But to be reliable he would need to take kicks at international level and I can't see Sexton allowing that to happen.

Murray won't always be around/fit to take the kicks for Keatley. If someone like Warwick was around (like Nacewa for Madigan last year), maybe that would work. But Keatley will still need to work on his kicking out of hand etc. (and his decision making).
[quote]

Kearney should be a back up kicker. He has a monster book and his goal and drop kicking is excellent.

Golden wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:In terms of lads with 0 caps getting any game time (a question asked earlier) I can't see many getting in on the act.

Possibly Marshall if someone gets injured well in to the tournament.

Maybe Keatley or Jackson if someone gets injured.

Can't see anyone else bustling in but we have a load of guys on <10 caps

Hate to be pedantic but Keatley has been capped.

Ah yes he has those two games in America more a less 4 years ago, wow his career really has stalled along with another few guys!

This was the team that won 25-6 against Canada in 2009....

15 FB Gavin Duffy
14 W Barry Murphy
13 C Darren Cave
12 C Ian Whitten
11 W Ian Dowling
10 FH Ian Keatley
9 SH Peter Stringer
1 P Tom Court
2 H Rory Best (c)
3 P Tony Buckley
4 L Bob Casey
5 L Mick O'Driscoll
6 F John Muldoon
7 F Niall Ronan
8 N8 Denis Leamy
Replacements
16 Sean Cronin
17 P Mike Ross
18 L Ryan Caldwell
19 F Donnacha Ryan
20 SH Eoin Reddan
21 Niall O'Connor
22 Denis Hurley

Pretty much the same team bar John Muldoon played against the Eagles too and won 27-10.

Look at all those careers that never really got going fully though: Hurley, O'Connor, Leamy (after 2009), O'Driscoll, Casey, Buckley, Stringer (after 2009),
and the entire backline. Crazy amount of guys to get caps but never really kicked on

GunsGerms wrote:Kearney should be a back up kicker. He has a monster book and his goal and drop kicking is excellent.

Whats that based on?

red_stag wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Kearney should be a back up kicker. He has a monster book and his goal and drop kicking is excellent.

Whats that based on?

knowledge and good looks.

Seriously though he was goal kicker for his school team and has popped over a few DGs from near half way as a pro. He has a bomb of a left boot and Ireland really needs to have two kickers on every team like practically every other top nation.

GunsGerms wrote:Seriously though he was goal kicker for his school team and has popped over a few DGs from near half way as a pro. He has a bomb of a left boot and Ireland really needs to have two kickers on every team like practically every other top nation.

McFadden is a great kicker too. Remember at one point last season he actually couldn't miss.

He is but they never seem to let him kick plus his range isnt any bigger than Sexton. Kearneys is though.

GunsGerms wrote:He is but they never seem to let him kick plus his range isnt any bigger than Sexton. Kearneys is though.

I think thats because they are trying to let Madigan take more kicks and he has be kicking well this season to be fair to him.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Look at all those careers that never really got going fully though: Hurley, O'Connor, Leamy (after 2009), O'Driscoll, Casey, Buckley, Stringer (after 2009),
and the entire backline. Crazy amount of guys to get caps but never really kicked on

That was about fulfilling a fixture. A lot of players made the Lions and Leinster players were not available for that tour because they were involved in the Heineken Cup.

Then Ireland Ireland A were going to the Churchill Cup. Healy, McFadden & Sexton came to the fore there I think.

What! An anti Munster conspiracy!

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Scrum- Wales by a bit
Lineout- Ireland by a bit
Attack- Wales by a lot
Defence- Ireland by a bit

I'd say on paper Wales should win this one. Home advantage helps too although you guys are really struggling for halfbacks it seems which are obviously key positions

It's so sad, we just don't seem to care about this. We've got the form scrummaging loosehead in Europe to deal with Adam Jones and we've got him as third choice because we need two props to carry the ball. We'd have the makings of a good scrum if we prioritised it more.

Attack - Wales by a lot? Says who! They have been toothless for 7 tests!

Notch wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Scrum- Wales by a bit
Lineout- Ireland by a bit
Attack- Wales by a lot
Defence- Ireland by a bit

I'd say on paper Wales should win this one. Home advantage helps too although you guys are really struggling for halfbacks it seems which are obviously key positions

It's so sad, we just don't seem to care about this. We've got the form scrummaging loosehead in Europe to deal with Adam Jones and we've got him as third choice because we need two props to carry the ball. We'd have the makings of a good scrum if we prioritised it more.

Notch; the last reason in the world Ross is being included is because of his carrying. He is there because of his scrummaging, when he carries the ball he is never dynamic. Healy is a very good scrummager, he has come on so much since he was murdered in Toulouse in 2010, and I don't think Court is significantly better than him. Court has been absolutely superb through the Heineken Cup group stages, but Healy has been excellent in every game he has played for Ireland in the last year. He will hold his own in the scrum.

Adam Jones bent him in half in the World Cup.

Court is playing excellently but I would still start Healy because he is probably in the top 3 looseheads in the world currently

Hmmm, not sure he's top three in the 6 Nations*


*this is my opinion, feel free to disagree, but there's no need to be personal...

valjester wrote:

Notch wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Scrum- Wales by a bit
Lineout- Ireland by a bit
Attack- Wales by a lot
Defence- Ireland by a bit

I'd say on paper Wales should win this one. Home advantage helps too although you guys are really struggling for halfbacks it seems which are obviously key positions

It's so sad, we just don't seem to care about this. We've got the form scrummaging loosehead in Europe to deal with Adam Jones and we've got him as third choice because we need two props to carry the ball. We'd have the makings of a good scrum if we prioritised it more.

Notch; the last reason in the world Ross is being included is because of his carrying. He is there because of his scrummaging, when he carries the ball he is never dynamic. Healy is a very good scrummager, he has come on so much since he was murdered in Toulouse in 2010, and I don't think Court is significantly better than him. Court has been absolutely superb through the Heineken Cup group stages, but Healy has been excellent in every game he has played for Ireland in the last year. He will hold his own in the scrum.

I think Notch is talking about Healy and Kilcoyne being selected over Court for their superior carrying skills. I do think Healy should be first choice though, he is also a fantastic scrummager.

Right now, Court is scrummaging quite a lot better than Healy but Healy should be starting- but it's now rather close. Were we to put an emphasis on using our scrum as a weapon I would certainly put Court in.

I'm not so sure Notch - Court does have the benefit of scrummaging alongside Afoa, whereas Healy is alongside Ross. There is a huge drop in quality there.

No I don't agree. Obviously the front row is a unit that works together, but a lot of the penalties we've been winning have been on Courts side. His individual contribution to a good collective effort has been utterly massive. I also disagree on Ross, Ross is a highly accomplished scrummager for sure- a real scrum nerd. If he wasn't he wouldn't be kept around. Our best set piece front row is Court, Best, Ross. Best carrying is probably Healy, Cronin, Ross.

I think Ross is pretty overrated for his scrummaging ability.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think Ross is pretty overrated for his scrummaging ability.

He is still the best we have unless fitzpatrick can stay fit.

I think Ross is beginning to go on the wane for sure but he is still our only option. What I do believe is that we are in for a torrid time against Wales in this area. Healy has been playing really well of late but the scrum worries me. Afoa absolutely made mincemeat of him in ravenhill although to what extent Bent weakened the scrum I don't know.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think Ross is pretty overrated for his scrummaging ability.

He is still the best we have unless fitzpatrick can stay fit.

He's better than Fitzpatrick anyway, more consistent. His form hasn't been amazing but he has the goods. I believe in him!

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think Ross is pretty overrated for his scrummaging ability.

He is still the best we have unless fitzpatrick can stay fit.

He is yes, but that just shows how bad our options are.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think Ross is pretty overrated for his scrummaging ability.

He is still the best we have unless fitzpatrick can stay fit.

He is yes, but that just shows how bad our options are.

Thats a pretty negative view. he isn't a bad scrummager. He was apart of the scrum that dominated Argentina.

Standulstermen wrote:I think Ross is beginning to go on the wane for sure but he is still our only option. What I do believe is that we are in for a torrid time against Wales in this area. Healy has been playing really well of late but the scrum worries me. Afoa absolutely made mincemeat of him in ravenhill although to what extent Bent weakened the scrum I don't know.

He did to be fair, they were under pressure across the board. Bent and Healy were both in all sorts of trouble, it was a massive effort from our pack. The penalty try is here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZzrE2Ko6j0

I wouldn't be too harsh on Healy, most props have days like that. I wrote off Kilcoyne after he got similar treatment at Ravenhill earlier in the season but he's learnt a lot since then and he'll be around for a long time. Truth is, we just have a very good scrum at Ravenhill these days. It bothers me that we can bemoan our scrummaging and yet completely ignore the personnel we have in the Provinces who are doing well there. Of course, we have no tighthead of the all-round quality of Afoa but it's not like Tom Court is living off his work. Tom Court has shown he's a very destructive scrummager in his own right and I think even if he doesn't start if the scrum is in trouble, he's going to do more to sort it out coming off then bench. It was a baffling call to drop him in the Autumn and to be fair, since then, he's been on some kind of Kill Bill scrummaging revenge mission. Ulster fans aren't complaining, what he's doing to opposition tightheads is a sight for sore eyes.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think Ross is pretty overrated for his scrummaging ability.

He is still the best we have unless fitzpatrick can stay fit.

He is yes, but that just shows how bad our options are.

Thats a pretty negative view. he isn't a bad scrummager. He was apart of the scrum that dominated Argentina.

Argentina's scrum has been on the wane for a number of years, further handicapped by refusing to move on from the legends still playing who are past their best. Ross is still by far our best scrummager at tighthead, pretty much our only option, but he has never been a destructive scrummager. I suppose the best Irish props normally hope for is gaining parity.

I would say I am being realistic. People seemed happy enough for him to be dropped for Bent during the Autumn internationals don't forget.

valjester wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think Ross is pretty overrated for his scrummaging ability.

He is still the best we have unless fitzpatrick can stay fit.

He is yes, but that just shows how bad our options are.

Thats a pretty negative view. he isn't a bad scrummager. He was apart of the scrum that dominated Argentina.

Argentina's scrum has been on the wane for a number of years, further handicapped by refusing to move on from the legends still playing who are past their best. Ross is still by far our best scrummager at tighthead, pretty much our only option, but he has never been a destructive scrummager. I suppose the best Irish props normally hope for is gaining parity.

Thats why its so frustrating when we do have a destructive scrummager! I wish it was a tighthead as opposed to a loosehead, sure, but there's a serious risk of looking a gift horse in the mouth.

I don't know what to think to be honest.

Afoa wasn't rated as a scrummager in NZ but comes over here and is destructive. Best is of course our best scrummaging hooker but what else is it that sets ulster aside. We have had Stevenson, Tuohy, Henderson, muller, McComb, Diack and even nick Williams in the 2nd row and still our scrum goes well.

Is it some coaching trick or is it personnel as notch mentions. I don't know. I can't even remember how the scrum went against SA? I just have worries regarding the welsh, English and french doing a number on us here

It's a pack and coaching staff making the scrum as a weapon a priority and working incredibly hard on it together. I do believe its careful analysis and hard graft as well as some measure of talent, but mainly an increased emphasis on scrummaging and some good coaching and good players working hard together. Not just the front row, the pack as an 8. I think also Court and Afoa are coming into the stage of their careers where they are pretty much at their peak as scrummagers. Younger men can match and probably surpass their stats in the gym, but experience is experience. Court being relieved of the utility prop tag is another factor, thats something which held him back big time. He'd start getting into form and he'd be asked to move across for an Ulster game or he'd go to an Ireland camp and he'd have to move across and that was disruptive for him and I think a burden psychologically. Must have been very dispiriting for the guy as a specialist loosehead to keep being asked to fill a role that didn't suit him.

Afoa has completely adapted his game to Northern Hemisphere rugby- still always a useful ball carrier who pops up around the pitch, but he is destructive in the scrum and maul. His tight work has improved a lot since he joined.

On the flip side you could argue that Court won't win too many penalties against Adam Jones and all Healy have to do is hold his own there which he is capable of doing.

profitius wrote:On the flip side you could argue that Court won't win too many penalties against Adam Jones and all Healy have to do is hold his own there which he is capable of doing.

Exactly, Healy is the superior player. Personally Notch, I think you are overrating Court, to call him destructive is slightly hyperbolic.

I'm not certain collectively we can hold our own but I'm not sure. Hard to know what shape we are in. Will be interesting but i wouldn't advocate dropping Healy unless our scrum was in a massive amount of trouble which I hope it isn't