v2 G.O.A.T Round 1 Group 7

Monday’s group was a two horse race from the very start of the day with voting split between Basketball legend Michael Jordan and 18 time major title winner Jack Nicklaus. Jordan eventually progressed through in 1st place with 47% of the vote to Nicklaus's 28% who makes in to round 2 as group 6 runner up.

Today’s group sees Motor Racing, Football, Snooker and Boxing compete for your votes.

We have the three participants championed today with articles written by forum members, so please feel free to submit your own argument below for the one not championed.

Please vote for the competitor you believe has achieved the most in sport and should progress into the next round.

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Pele- Football- Championed by paperbag_puncher

Only when I sat down to write this article did the sheer scale of what I was attempting to do hit me. This article should really write itself, yet there are no words that can accurately describe the greatness of 'The King of Football' There are few human beings throughout history in any walk of life who have reached the iconic status of Pele.
“My name is Ronald Reagan, I’m the President of the United States of America. But you don’t need to introduce yourself, because everyone knows who Pele is.”
Ronald Reagan

Like most young boys I grew up hearing stories of this mythical man from Brazil who could create magic with his feet. I’d always been told of his greatness and happily accepted it but I was doing the man a great disservice by simply accepting it. Only as I got older and researched further did I realise how great he actually was. I am genuinely grateful that I have agreed to write this piece as it has given me the opportunity to revisit and explore the career of arguably the greatest sports person to have graced this earth.

There is no doubt in my mind that Pele was the most complete player of those who are generally mentioned in the greatest ever debates. Blessed with an unbelievable combination of pace, power, balance and close control he beat defenders at will making everything look effortless. Capable of the unpredictable and the sublime he was very much ahead of his time. Two footed and lethal in the air he was the ultimate goal scorer. The famous stat of 1281 goals in 1363 games is testament to this.

Pele said in 2006: "For 20 years they have asked me the same question, who is the greatest? Pele or Maradona? I reply that all you have to do is look at the facts - how many goals did he score with his right foot or with his head?"

Pele made his debut for Santos at the tender age of 15 scoring on his debut in 1956. By the time the 1957 season came around he was a first team regular and finished as the league’s top scorer. Just 10 months later he was called up to the Brazilian national team scoring in a 2-1 defeat to Argentina making him the youngest ever international scorer at 16 years and 9 months. He would go on to become and still is Brazil’s top goal scorer with a remarkable 77 goals in 92 games.

1958 was Pele’s breakout year and he announced himself to the world in style. He won his first major title the Campeonato Paulista with Santos scoring a record 58 goals along the way (a record that still stands) He was selected for the 1958 World Cup at the insistence of of his team mates despite being injured, which shows the regard the 17 year old was already held in. He played a pivotal role scoring the winner against Wales in the quarters, a hat-trick against France and another brace Vs Sweden in the final on his way to becoming the youngest ever World Cup Winner.

Brazil repeated the trick in 1962 but did it without Pele who injured himself in the second game having looked ominously bright in the opening game. The 1966 was even worse for him. Pele was ruthlessly and cynically targeted by opposing defences meaning he missed the loss to Hungary and was never at his best for the two games he did play. Without their talisman the defending champions were eliminated in the first round.
He got his redemption in 1970 inspiring perhaps the greatest team of all time to a third world cup success. Pele at the peak of his powers won the player of the tournament and provided us with two of his most iconic moments. Had his lob from the half way line against the Czechs or his audacious dummy to round the Uruguayan goalie resulted in goals they surely would have been 2 of the greatest in World Cup history.

At one stage it was universally accepted that Pele was the greatest footballer of all time. In recent years it has almost become fashionable to dismiss his claim and achievements in favour of two little Argies. There are two sticks that are usually used to beat him which are contradictory for me. True he never tested himself in Europe. Having been named a ‘national treasure’ by the Brazilian Government and not being allowed to be ‘exported’ he spent his best years in his native land. However, we do have some clues as to how he would have fared had he moved to a big European club. His goals record and performances at international level leave me unequivocally convinced that he would have burned it up in any league. Also Santos (mainly to be able to afford his wages) regularly toured and faced the biggest clubs in Europe where Pele showed he was still on another level. The other criticism is that he was part of the greatest international team ever and had world class team mates around him which somehow should dilute his success. Many of these same team mates also predominantly played in Brazil yet this isn’t held against the likes of Garrincha, Rivelino, Tostao or Jairzinho who regularly had to play second fiddle to Pele and his Santos team. Nor is it held against one Lionel Messi who is a part of the greatest team I have ever seen. Like Messi now, Pele was the undoubted jewel in a beautiful crown.

For me, to be worthy of being called the greatest sports person of all time you need to tick several boxes. You must be supremely talented and have a strong argument to be the GOAT in your own sport. In my opinion you also have to have transcended your own sport and have made a widespread universal and lasting impact. With all due respect to the big hitters who have been voted through so far, most people have no idea who Bradman, Merckx etc are. While this may not be a popularity contest Pele’s notoriety and worldwide acclaim stemmed solely from his prodigious talent and countless achievements. He wasn’t a character, he wasn’t a loveable rogue. He did all his talking with his feet and his reputation is a product of his talent alone.

I have used a lot of words despite originally stating words could not do the great man justice. Still for me Pele is a treat best enjoyed visually. Watching him nutmeg two defenders and rounding the keeper or seeing him effortlessly flicking the ball over a defender’s head and volleying home is still jaw dropping even today. I will leave you with some quotes from his peers and contemporaries who say it a lot better than I ever could.

"I told myself before the game, 'he's made of skin and bones just like everyone else'. But I was wrong.”
Tarcisio Burgnich, the Italy defender who marked Pele in the Mexico 1970 Final

“The difficulty, the extraordinary, is not to score 1,000 goals like Pele – it’s to score one goal like Pele.”
Carlos Drummond de Andrade, Brazilian poet

“The greatest player in history was Di Stefano. I refuse to classify Pele as a player. He was above that.”
Ferenc Puskas

“After the fifth goal, even I wanted to cheer for him.”
Sigge Parling of Sweden on a 5-2 defeat by Brazil in the 1958 FIFA World Cup Final

“I arrived hoping to stop a great man, but I went away convinced I had been undone by someone who was not born on the same planet as the rest of us.”
Costa Pereira on Benfica’s 5-2 loss to Santos in the 1962 Intercontinental Cup in Lisbon

"Pele was the greatest – he was simply flawless. And off the pitch he is always smiling and upbeat. You never see him bad-tempered. He loves being Pele.” Tostao

“When I saw Pele play, it made me feel I should hang up my boots.”
Just Fontaine

“Pele was one of the few who contradicted my theory: instead of 15 minutes of fame, he will have 15 centuries.”
Andy Warhol

“Pele was the only footballer who surpassed the boundaries of logic.”
Johan Cruyff

“His great secret was improvisation. Those things he did were in one moment. He had an extraordinary perception of the game.”
Carlos Alberto Torres

“I sometimes feel as though football was invented for this magical player.”
Sir Bobby Charlton

"Pele played football for 22 years, and in that time he did more to promote world friendship and fraternity than any other ambassador anywhere.”
J.B. Pinheiro, the Brazilian ambassador to the United Nations

Malcolm Allison: “How do you spell Pele?”
Pat Crerand: “Easy: G-O-D.”
British television commentators during Mexico 1970

Pelé is the greatest player of all time. He reigned supreme for 20 years. All the others – Diego Maradona, Johan Cruyff, Michel Platini – rank beneath him. There's no one to compare with Pelé.
—West Germany's 1974 FIFA World Cup-winning captain Franz Beckenbauer

The best player ever? Pelé. Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo are both great players with specific qualities, but Pelé was better.
—Real Madrid legend Alfredo Di Stéfano

Stephen Hendry- Snooker- Championed by The Special Juan

The Early Years

“I wanted to be the best and, for a short while, I was.”

This quote, from an interview with Stephen Hendry shortly after he retired, sums up what type of person he was. Hendry was a winner; someone who put in the hours of practice required to compete and dominate at the very top of any sport and expected nothing less than victory at each tournament. Some may say Ronnie O’Sullivan is the most naturally talented snooker player of all time and whilst that may be true, Hendry is not far behind.

Hendry first picked up a cue when he was 12 and merely 4 years later he was competing at the Crucible in the World Championships; an astounding achievement (he was the youngest player ever to play at the Crucible, a record which stood until very recently at the 2012 World Championships). The sign of what was to come in his career was evident almost immediately. Two weeks after he started playing he made a break of 52 and two years later he was winning tournaments.

His first of 36 ranking titles came in the 1987/88 Grand Prix where he defeated the former World Champion Dennis Taylor in the final. He also defeated the then greatest player in the world Steve Davis in the last sixteen.

The Peak Years

As the years progressed, the titles racked up for Hendry. His third ranking title was the UK Championship, snooker’s second most prestigious prize, in 1988 and he did not have to wait long until he landed the first of seven World Championships (a record in the Crucible era).

In 1990 Stephen Hendry faced Jimmy White, in the first of four finals between the two players (they subsequently met in three consecutive finals from 1992-1994), in the World Championship final. Although the tournament perhaps is most remembered for Alex Higgins punching an official in the stomach and then threatening to have Dennis Taylor shot, Hendry lifted the trophy after triumphing 18-12 in the final and became the youngest ever World Champion aged 21 years old, a record which still stands. By winning the World Championship, he also became the second player to win all three events in snooker’s Triple Crown (the World, UK and Masters titles) in the same season.

Continuing into the next season, Hendry defended both his UK and Masters titles, with the only shock in an otherwise successful season (he won 5 ranking titles in total + the Masters) being that he did not manage to defend his Crucible crown. This made him angry and for the next six seasons he would go on one of sport’s great winning runs by winning 29 consecutive Crucible matches. This included winning five consecutive titles and reaching six consecutive finals; his magnificent run coming to an end after losing to Ken Doherty in the 1997 final. This run also saw one of the Crucible’s greatest comebacks when, in the 1992 final, Hendry rallied from 14-8 down against Jimmy White to rattle off 10 consecutive frames and win the match 18-14, thus breaking the hearts of audience and Jimmy alike.

The 1995/96 season proved fruitful for Hendry when he again won the Triple Crown, becoming the first player to win the Triple Crown twice in their career. Unfortunately for Hendry, this proved to be his last great season due to a combination of factors, but there was still life in the old dog yet.

King Hendry

Hendry arrived at the Crucible in 1999 having lost his World Number 1 ranking which he had held for eight years and having suffered first round exits in both the Masters and UK Championship that season. There, he recorded probably his single greatest accomplishment, winning a seventh World Championship (a new record) and beating top quality players along the way; Paul Hunter, James Wattana, Matthew Stevens, Ronnie O’Sullivan and Mark J Williams in the final. This was to be Hendry’s last hoorah as he was unceremoniously dumped out in the first round the next year. He continued to pick up the odd ranking title and reach a few more major finals but after victory in the 2005 Malta Cup there were to be no more ranking titles for the great man and, after making a 147 break in his first round victory against Stuart Bingham and producing a demolition job against defending champion John Higgins in the 2012 World Championship, Hendry suffered a hammering from fellow Scot Stephen Maguire. Enough was enough and in the press conference afterwards, Hendry announced his immediate retirement from the sport. Some put his rather sudden downward spiral down to age, others to the emergence of Williams, Higgins and O’Sullivan but perhaps the one event that signalled the end was nigh was when the cue Hendry had used throughout his career was snapped when travelling.

Key to Hendry’s domination of the sport was his break building. Never one for extended safety battles, Hendry would use his deadly long potting to sink a red and get in prime position around the black ball. This, along with his incredible middle pocket potting, allowed him to rack up the most century breaks in snooker; 775 including 11 maximums. This video sums up Hendry’s career (and the first pot was no fluke either). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBIslTfHpnM

As mentioned, Hendry won a total of 36 ranking events which included a further 21 major finals. He also won another 32 non-ranking finals, making a combined total of 68 tournament wins during his career. Career highlights included:

Seven World Championships (a record) including five consecutive titles
Five UK Championships including three consecutive titles
Six Masters including five consecutive titles
An MBE in 1994
Being World Number 1 for nine years in total

Other records Hendry holds included:
Most centuries in one tournament
Most centuries compiled in one match
Highest prize money won
Oldest player ever to compile a 147 in competitive play

So after so many titles, century breaks and domination in his sport, he is certainly a contender for the greatest sportsman of all time; not just for what he achieved in his sport but for the person he was; hard-working, ruthless and successful.

Sugar Ray Robinson- Boxing- Championed by superflyweight

Let’s start at the beginning for the man almost universally recognised as pound for pound, the greatest boxer who ever lived. Walker Smith Junior was born 3rd May 1921 and following his family's move to New York, started boxing in a local Harlem gym. At 14 he wanted to enter a tournament and in order to circumvent the age restrictions (the minimum age was 16) he borrowed his older friend's Amateur Athletic Union card. His friend's name was Ray Robinson. The "Sugar" (a reference to his "sweet style") came later but from the moment he borrowed his friend's identity, a legend was born.

Robinson quickly went about putting together an outstanding amateur C.V. eventually racking up a record of 85 wins with no defeats. 69 of those wins were via knockout and 40 of those came in the first round. He was Golden Gloves featherweight champion in 1939 and then lightweight champion in 1940.

Turning pro in 1940 at the age of just 19, Robinson quickly went about making a name for himself, comprehensively beating current lightweight champion, Sammy Angott (who had refused to put his belt on the line) in just his 21st fight and then twice defeating (the second via a stoppage) the experienced master of the dark arts and former welterweight champion, Fritzie Zivic. A few fights later he won an unanimous decision against future middleweight great, Jake La Motta who outweighed Sugar that night by almost 13lbs (two whole weight classes in today's fight scene). Robinson was no protected fighter and fights against Angott, Zivic and La Motta as well as other tough, experienced opponents (including an ageing Henry Armstrong who is often regarded as the second greatest boxer who ever lived), represents a tough induction for a young fighter who was a relative novice. Despite this tough induction, it wasn't until his 40th fight that Robinson tasted defeat, losing a decision in his second fight against La Motta who outweighed him by 16lbs that night.

How did Robinson react to that defeat? He went unbeaten for the next 8 years winning 91 fights in the process defeating La Motta another 4 times along the way. Across their 6 fights, La Motta (who was a top drawer and very tough middleweight who would go on to win the middleweight title from the great Marcel Cerdan) outweighed Robinson by an average of 12lbs.

During that run of 91 victories, Robinson eventually won the welterweight title in 1946 at the age of 25 (boxing politics (in the form of the notorious Mob run, International Boxing Club) had kept him away from the title). Having amassed a record of 75 wins, 1 draw and 1 defeat, Robinson was allowed to compete for the vacant welterweight world title, triumphing with a unanimous decision over Tommy Bell. Finally, the man everyone knew was the best welterweight on the planet, had the belt that was rightfully his. Robinson remained undefeated as welterweight champion until he vacated the belt in 1950. During his reign he notched up wins against fellow welterweight great and future champion, Kid Gavilan before increasing problems making the 147lbs weight limit had Sugar setting his sights on the middleweight division.

Robinson won the middleweight title from La Motta in the infamous Valentine's Day Massacre which features prominently in the film Raging Bull. La Motta was stopped in brutal fashion in the 13th (the only legitimate stoppage of the legendary granite chinned, La Motta in 95 fights) and Robinson was champion at a second weight. Robinson subsequently went on a valedictory tour of Europe (fighting in various European cities against European opponents) which by all accounts was little more than one long party. Robinson turned up in the UK slightly worse for wear and somewhat undercooked and lost his title to Britain's own Randy Turpin having been outpointed over 15 rounds. Robinson immediately won the title back from Turpin, stopping him in the 10th round when behind on the cards. Robinson then defended the title a further twice against future champion, Bobo Olsen and former champion Rocky Graziano.

Having successfully defended his middleweight title, Robinson immediately turned his attention to Joey Maxim’s light heavyweight title. Against a very fine light heavyweight in Maxim and operating in a division way above his welterweight peak, Robinson was well ahead on all of the cards when he failed to emerge for the 14th round due to heat exhaustion. The fight had been held outdoors at Yankee Stadium in New York in sweltering heat and humidity and in the end it proved too much for Sugar. Following that defeat, Robinson immediately announced his first retirement from the sport.

Robinson stayed retired for 2 and a ½ years before returning at middleweight to take the title back from Bobo Olsen (via a 2nd round knockout) at the age of 34. His form on his return was patchy – he would lose the title three times (regaining it twice) but it was in this run of fights that contained Robinson’s greatest and perhaps most famous moment in the ring. At the age of 35 and up against the formidable champion Gene Fullmer (a man who had already beaten Robinson convincingly in their previous fight), Robinson was just about holding his own and then in the 5th round unleashed what many consider to be the greatest knockout punch of all time. Robinson hit Fullmer with a lightning quick left hook to the jaw which sent Gene plummeting to the floor. The fight was over in an instant and Robinson was middleweight champion for the fourth time. How good was the punch? Judge for yourself in the video below and consider that Fullmer had never been off his feet in any fight until that point and was considered iron jawed. Here’s what Fullmer had to say about it – “I still don’t know anything about the punch except I watched it on movies a number of times. The first thing I knew, I was standing up. I asked my manager, ‘What happened?’ and he said, ‘They counted ten.’”

Robinson would lose and win back the title once more and then would fail in a couple of more title challenges. However, he was long past his best by this point and pushing 40. Unfortunately Robinson (driven by a need to keep earning money) would fight on for many more years and would tarnish his record by losing to men who would not have been fit to get in the ring with him at his peak. This should not detract from how good he was. If we consider him only at his peak (generally recognised as being everything up to , but not including the Joey Maxim fight), he amassed a record of 128 wins, 1 draw and 2 defeats. Just incredible numbers made more incredible by the names on his record. Robinson defeated 10 Hall of Famer’s in his career; Jake Lamotta, Sammy Angott, Fritzie Zivic, Henry Armstrong, Kid Gavilan, Rocky Graziano, Randy Turpin, Gene Fullmer and Carmen Basilio.

The following description of Robinson is by Monte Cox and is taken from the excellent website “Cox’s Corner” and it describes Robinson better than I ever could:

“What other fighter could beat you more ways than could Sugar Ray Robinson? Ray could out box boxers and out punch punchers. He could do it inside or outside, going forward or backward. Ray could do it with his powerful left hook as he did against Gene Fullmer or with his perfect straight right as he did against Rocky Graziano. Joe Louis could throw triple left hooks with speed, power and accuracy that could destroy a man. Robinson could throw triple left hooks and triple right hooks that could do the same. Who else could do that and maintain frightening power?... Ray Robinson was the archetype of a complete fighter. If one combines his polished, grand boxing style with his powerful punching and cast iron chin with a will to win unsurpassed in the annals of boxing one has a perfect fighter.

“To sum it up, Robinson was the consummate professional fighter who possessed every physical asset; speed, agility, mobility, and tremendous punching power. He rates among a select few of the all time greats who could defeat fighters using their own best assets against them. Robinson, a true sharpshooter, easily rates among the best pound for pound punchers in history. Robinson is possibly the greatest combination puncher of all time. His quality of opposition is among the top five. Ray’s peak won-loss record is among the top three. Ray’s overall ring record and accomplishments also rate among the top three. Robinson is among the top five of all time in the category of longevity. Ray had all the intangibles, great experience, killer instinct, a tremendous chin and heart.”

Let’s finish by looking at what his fellow greats had to say about him:

“Someone once said there was a comparison between Sugar Ray Leonard and Sugar Ray Robinson. Believe me, there's no comparison. Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest."
Sugar Ray Leonard

“The king, the master, my idol.”
“That man was beautiful. Timing, speed, reflexes, rhythm, his body, everything was beautiful. And to me, still, I would say pound for pound...I'd say I'm the greatest heavyweight of all time, but pound for pound, I still say Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest of all time.”
Muhammad Ali

Quite simply, Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest boxer who ever lived and operated the peak of one of the toughest sports for a period of more than 20 years. He is regarded as far and away the greatest welterweight who ever lived (ahead of men like Armstrong, Sugar Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns and Jose Naploles) and most observers have him in their top 5 middleweights. He had great talent, he faced and beat the best and he reigned at the top for an incredible period of time. In short, he was the complete sportsman!

That's an incredibly tough group. Have obviously voted for Sugar Ray but given that you have four men who are generally recognised as the greatest of all time in their individual disciplines - it really id the group of death.

What a four.

I THINK Sugar Ray Robinson is heralded as the best P4P boxer of all time.

Hendry IMO is the best Snooker player ever.

Pele is one of the best three players ever, in the most played sport in the world.

And Schumaker has more world titles than any other racing driver.

Pele will be moy vote ahead of Sugar Ray, unless I can be convinced otherwise.

Yep. Tough choice, but I think it's got to be Pele (though I hope Robinson goes through as well)

Top write up guys. Really. Makes the choice very difficult.

Superflyweight
That was an excellant clip you chose, Sugar ray gets my vote, he was in a much more competitive environment then Pele.

I read and read the write ups.

I went with Pele.

I so wanted to go with Hendry as I have never seen such a winning machine in the world of sport.

However, Pele just transcended and changed football. I can recall myself as a young budding football enthusiast wanting to do a 'Pele' and score an overhead kick. His performance at the 1958 World Cup Final was just stunning. Even when you watch footage of it you forget he was just 17. He literally lit up the game. There is no doubt that there has been many others who have come through and made an impact on the game, though not sure many would have the legacy Pele has.

Some will argue that Pele scored a lot of his goals in an inferior league to some of the European ones, which even then, were of a higher standard.

That said, three world cup winner medals, goals galore and some great ones, make him a serious GOAT contender.

aucklandlaurie wrote: Superflyweight
That was an excellant clip you chose, Sugar ray gets my vote, he was in a much more competitive environment then Pele.

Thanks - it's such a beautifully executed punch and sums up Robinson almost perfectly.

Wow, this is what you call a tough group!

Pélé: arguably the greatest in the most widely played sport.

Hendry: undoubtedly (IMO, although old Mr Davis may have a claim as well) the greatest but given snooker's rather limited expansion I can't see him getting a look-in here (in a weaker group he'd have had a very good chance).

Schumacher: the most successful, but doubts over character (which makes a difference for me) and how dependent he was on his car mean he falls short in this high company.

Robinson: I'm not a boxing fan, but from what I gather he is pretty much universally recognised as the best pound-for-pound. In a sport with so many different categories, and such a wide appeal, that is quite an achievement.

For me, it's between Pélé and Robinson. My only concern with Robinson is impact: I guess your average lay-person would quote Ali and Tyson (the latter not necessarily for the right reasons) as the two most recognisable names in boxing. Is it fair to say that Robinson's achievements, whilst extraordinary, haven't breached the barrier to the general person (as opposed to the boxing fan) in a way which Pélé's undoubtedly have?

Pele all the way for me. Boxing is really a minority sport in terms of participation, the talent pools arent really comparable. SRR second, Schumacher third and Hendry fourth.

Have gone for Robinson, as a boxing fan I had little choice. Superfly has already done a sterling job of making the case for Robbo. However the one thing I would add based on the comments that the thread has garnered thus far is people should not confuse boxing now with the era Robinson operated in. Would not be an exaggeration to state that boxing was rivalled in popularity only by baseball in the states between the 30s and 50s. The story was similar in Europe with most countries having a thriving scene and reglular shows. With this came inevitably increased participation and competition.

The phrase golden era is over used and is frequently a lazy replacement for dewy eyed nostalgia, but in this case to describe Robinson's era as a golden age would be more than accurate and appropriate. That Robinson was considered a country mile in front of his rivals in evewn that era tells you plenty about just how good he was.

Great group, great write ups.

I respect the accomplishments of Schumacher but, no matter how hard I try, I can't shake the feeling that it's so hard to evaluate Formula One drivers properly due to the extent to which their success hangs on the quality of the team they have around them and the car they drive. Even I, with my limited (at best) knowledge of the sport, can appreciate that Schumacher was the most skilled driver of his time with or without all of that, but for those above reasons and the fact that Formula One is a sport open to a relatively small percentage of the population, I can't have him as a contender here.

Love Stephen Hendry to death; revolutionised snooker and is responsible more than any other man for helping to usher in the ultra-aggressive generation of players such as O'Sullivan, Trump and Robertson which we see today rather than the more measured types like Davis, Thorburn and Griffiths who went before.

Remarkably consistent and driven, too - what O'Sullivan manages to do for one-off tournaments here and there, Hendry was doing tournament after tournament, season after season in his nineties pomp. Of all the most coveted records in snooker, it's unbelievable how many of them he owns. The way he valiantly held off the charge of O'Sullivans, Higgins, Williams et al while past his best was supremely admirable; his semi-final victories over O'Sullivan in the 1999 and 2002 World Championship tournaments showed Hendry at his very best, in all senses. On top of that, I had the pleasure of meeting him once and he was what I'd want a sportsman to be; humble, approachable and self-deprecating.

He also never used gamesmanship or underhand tactics when he played (see the 1994 World Championship final when, with the match nearing its end and at a crucial stage, Hendry refused a free ball opportunity which the referee had given him, asking the referee to take another look at which point he realised his mistake). This was with the match at 17-16 to Hendry, just one frame away from victory.

But, as much as I love the bloke, snooker just doesn't have the global appeal as of yet to make him a contender for this.

So, we're left with Pelé and Robinson. Pelé often cited as the best player in the history of the most popular and widely-played sport in the world, and he's rightly still spoken of in reverent tones the world over. Perhaps the only player to have been the stand out man of two separate World Cups (1958, as a mere seventeen year old, and again in 1970, although Fontaine and Jairzinho might have something to say about that respectively!), the Brazilian was as close to being the perfect forward as anyone has come; quick, could dribble, had two good feet, was good in the air, had a great temperament and was a truly clinical finisher.

He single-handedly destroyed a very good England side in1964 just two years before they won the World Cup, and some of the goals he scored in Swededn '58 and Chile '62 were seemingly touched by the Gods.

That said, he did have the luxury of playing in perhaps the two greatest World Cup winning sides of all time, Brazil's 1958 and 1970 classes being to this day the pick of all the teams who have lifted the trophy. It's a testament to his phenomenal abilities that he was able to emerge as the standout performer in those teams even with all of that talent around him, but while I'm happy to sy that Pelé was a better player than maradona, Puskas, Di Stefano, Garrincha, Platini, Cruyff, Zidane etc, by how much of a margin was he? Always difficult to get to the bottom of that in a team sport.

No such issues for Robinson on the whole, however, who is probably more readily accepted as being the king of his sport than Pelé is in his own. As good ol' Randall 'Tex' Cob said (boxing fans will know who he is!), "If you screw up in tennis, it's 15-0. If you screw up in boxing, it's your ass." Robinson emerged as the utterly dominant pound foir pound number one in what ESPN called in 2004 ' The world's hardest sport' and, what's more, he did this in what is often cited as boxing's golden era, the forties and fifties. Back then, boxing was America's greatest and biggest sport and had benefitted from the boom of television like no other.

In these days, world championships actually meant something, which isn't always the case today. It's commonplace for rookie professionals to pad their early records with a series of soft fights, but within one year of turning professional as a nineteen year old, Robinson had already beaten three legitimate, bona fide world champions. It was also the norm for fighters who boxed with such frequency to ship a fair number of losses - yet Robinson's record over the first eleven years of his career consisted of 128 wins, 2 draws and one, single defeat. A defeat which came against Jake LaMotta, himself one of the prominent fighters of his time, in a bout in which LaMotta outweighed Ray by about a stone (LaMotta was a genuine Middleweight, whereas Robinson had not long left the Lightweight division). Moreover, this was the only time that LaMotta beat Robinson in six attempts.

Robinson gets the edge here for me, marginally ahead of Pelé. The Brazilian had the lot, but Robinson set new standards yet to be matched in an era where he was not only competing with the best fighters of his time and when participation in the sport was at its highest, but also in a time where the influence of the Mob and, to a lesser extent, racial prejudice were a severe handicap to the careers of many black fighters, the importance of which can't be overstated.

Even if there was more participation in boxing back in the day, the fact that this has dropped off massively in the past say 40 years makes it very hard to really do any comparisions. For instance we say does Bradmans record count as it may not have happened in the modern day, same with Court and numerous others, but we are meant to hold up boxers from that era as being superior to modern day fighters ?

Boxing is really a minority sport in terms of participation, the talent pools arent really comparable.

Is certainly the case now but less true when Robinson boxed. I don't have the information to hand, but I'm sure that I read somwhere that in the 1920's that boxing was in the top 2 in the US in terms of particpation. Robinson turned pro in the early 40's when participation was still very high in the US and also throughout other parts of the world (Britain certainly had much higher rates of participation throughout the first half of the last century than it did in the latter half). At that time, football had not broken into certain markets (Africa, Asia, and USA) and participation levels were much lower than we see now.

superflyweight wrote:

Boxing is really a minority sport in terms of participation, the talent pools arent really comparable.

Is certainly the case now but less true when Robinson boxed. I don't have the information to hand, but I'm sure that I read somwhere that in the 1920's that boxing was in the top 2 in the US in terms of particpation. Robinson turned pro in the early 40's when participation was still very high in the US and also throughout other parts of the world (Britain certainly had much higher rates of participation throughout the first half of the last century than it did in the latter half). At that time, football had not broken into certain markets (Africa, Asia, and USA) and participation levels were much lower than we see now.

But we are talking about an all time GOAT. Football participation has increased beyond belief as boxing has declined. Even at its peak boxing participation in terms of numbers wouldn't be more than a small percentage of what football participation has been for the past 40-50 years. And yet most still regard Pele ast he best despitet he millions and millions of people who have played the game.
Far, far more people in the 20th and 21st century will have played football at both amateur and professional level than have boxed, of that Im sure.

Diggers
I've never played soccer or even been to a soccer game in my life but I've pulled on the gloves. but surely my opinion carries as much franchise as a soccer fan? Especially when it takes into consideration the pre requisites of boxing.

Boxing in New Zealand now forms a major basis of training for both the rugby codes.

Easy for me, Sugar Ray Robinson takes this.

The greatest boxer of all time, undisputedly so really. In such a global sport, particularly at the time Robinson was operating, that has to take it. The very best in the toughest sport of the lot.

Excellent work,. superfly.

Will probably go with Pele today - his was a name which has gained a certain mythology about it, and his stats show up well.

Robinson - As with a number of other boxers that have come up he's tough for me to judge because its not a sport I follow particularly. But he probably falls just short here. I do wonder if the over-representation of Boxing on the forum has led to so many being considered (and we haven't even had Ali yet...). All of them would appear to have a decent claim, but as a sport it would be well down on the list of sports I'd be looking at for an all-time GOAT.

Hendry - Incredible record of winning world titles in the '90s, but its difficult to say that a Snooker player is the 'GOAT'.

Schumacher - His achievements are stunning, but he was always difficult to warm to. Partly because of his under-hand tactics used v Hill and Villeneuve in the '90s (which he suffered the consequences for, of course) and also because him winning so much made F1 really quite boring for a while. I'm a big fan of modern F1, but I'd be hard pressed to pick a modern driver over a pre-1994 driver who had to change gear themselves and had less driver aids. I think most F1 fans would put Senna at the top of the list of great F1 drivers partly for that reason.

Shelsey93 wrote:Schumacher - His achievements are stunning, but he was always difficult to warm to...because him winning so much made F1 really quite boring for a while.

Used to think much the same about Hendry and snooker.

The May bank holiday during the 90's had two things in common for me. Drinking and Hendry winning the world title.

BUT a Snooker player would have to win 20 world titles to even be considered the GOAT.

Group of Death for sure.

Voted Sugar Ray.

So tough again.. arrggg.

I actually know all very well and rate all on this..All legends, but not super ubber legends.

Gonna have to think

I voted for Hendry, but all four of these are in the top three GOATS of their sport. Toughest choice to date.

Schumi was a cheat, but was incredible. Pele was quite a player, but from what I've seen, I rate Cruyff higher. And Sugar Ray was unbelievable, behind only Ali to my mind.

Whoever decided these groups must have known that today would be the group of death!

Hoggy_Bear wrote:

Shelsey93 wrote:Schumacher - His achievements are stunning, but he was always difficult to warm to...because him winning so much made F1 really quite boring for a while.

Used to think much the same about Hendry and snooker.

very similar to what woods did for goilf.

I stopped watching f1 and golf religiously during there spells at the top. Kinda ironic really and maybe a true definition of a GOAT. Someoine who is so good it becomes boring them winning all the time!!

But another pilot spoortsman. Cant vote for him due to the reliance of the car..

SRR is supposedly awesome. Reading abiut of the boxing forum has told me about him..

Snooker is one of my fav sports and although Hendry is not as skillfull as ronnie- he is clearly the GOAT of snooker in the modern era!- but then its snooker!! not a massively global sport -0 especially in his time(these days china is getting involved)

pele is probally my clear choice to be honest- gonna go for him..

Without wishing to undermine Pele's obvious merits - it should be pointed out that he played a very minor part in Brazil's 1962 World Cup win. He scored an incredible goal in their opening game but was injured and missed the rest of the tournament.

Like Jordan to a lesser extent, and certainly like Bradman, Hendry probably suffers because he played a sport that was in no way global when he was at his peak. Even today, only three players from outside the UK (Thorburn, Doherty and Robertson) have ever won the world title in snooker. For sheer consistency over a decade, Hendry would win the argument as the best ever in his sport, but in that department, his edge over someone like Davis can only be a narrow one. In terms of pure genius, or who would win a match assuming all players were at their best, there must be a huge doubt that one could rank Hendry over O'Sullivan. He therefore can't receive my vote.

Schumacher is closer. I can't really accept the argument about superior machinery; most of the best drivers of all time have ended up in the best cars by virtue of their superior skills. However, if such was also the case for Schumacher, it was equally so for Fangio, Clark and Senna, who were just as dominant over their peers. Schumacher won more titles and more races, but he competed for longer in an era where there are at least twice as many races as there were forty years ago and more. I don't regard Schumacher's case as the finest of all F1 drivers to be conclusively proved, and therefore I can't vote for him here.

After Ali, Pele is probably the best known sportsman of all time, and his name dominated the world's most popular sport for the best part of 15 years. How does one compare him with Cruyff, Maradona, Messi, Zidane, Di Stefano et al, though? Was he so much better than them? This is the great difficulty with team sports - establishing one great as definitively superior to another from a different era, playing in a different position, is nigh on impossible. One can certainly say that Pele never had to lift an inferior team to a World Cup final, which Maradona, solely by dint of his genius, certainly did in 1986. Pele would be my second choice of this great quartet, but for me, has to give best to....

Sugar Ray Robinson. The case has been admirably made by some of my chums from the boxing board for SRR. Suffice to say that his record just before he fought Randy Turpin in London in the summer of 1951 at the age of 30 is something absurd. All-comers (with the exception of Charley Burley, whom he probably should have fought) were ultimately conclusively vanquished. In an era when at least the odd loss was an occupational hazard, even a badge of honour, Robinson just didn't do it. He was still highly competitive at global level 15 years after winning his first world title; he is still regarded as the finest welterweight in history and remains the standard by which all boxers are measured more than half a century after his last world title fight. In a sport with truly global appeal and participation, that is extraordinary.

Robinson for me.

tbh i am voting pele because he seems to have tranceded his sport more. however i cant pick between the other 3- all so similar, so its almost by default..The other 3 would come about joint 15th in my all time goat list.

I personally wouldnt actually put pele in my top 3 footballers(4th on my list)- because he isnt in my era. However football is such a global sport that i feel all footballers gain a point or two due to the participation level..

I am not voting for Pele because I don't believe he is the greatest footballer of all time, thats Maradonna imo (based on ability).
I can't vote for Robinson because I am not enough of a boxing fan to have the knowledge to make that decision.
That leaves me with the most successful F1 driver and the most successful snooker player. The fact that Hendry was on a level playing field and Schumacher had the advantage of being in a superior Ferrari my vote goes to Hendry. I'm sure lots of people will completely disagree but hey, this is my vote.

MIG i think thats a good way to vote.. TBH.. hendry is the modern GOAT of snooker.

TBH watching ronnie is awesome and his overall skill level is beyond legendry. However the skill level of hendrys positional play in his peak has surpased anyone- He had that ball on a string like no one else has had even today.

I supoose one way of looking at this is that quite possibly the three who arent snooker players have/had quite possibly never heard of the game.

Diggs.. Another way of looking at it!

Well i am sure SRR didnt just know what pool is but also played it.

Should snooker players be judged on the game snooker - or as the peak Baize game..

Snooker players arnt just skillfull in there profession but they can also go and play 9 ball/8 ball pool to the same level pool players can..

Davies and other snooker players get into the mosconi cup(massive in the states!!) - its the ryder cup of 9 ball.

However a pool player could never ever compete at snooker without years of practise..

- Pele': some say he's the greatest, but I have never seen any recorded evidence to back this claim.

- Snooker: a Mickey mouse sport that shouldn't even be considered for this competition.

- Shumacher: great driver, I could never warm at the guy though.

- My vote goes to SRR by default.

I dont think that any snooker player has threatened to be a really top drawer pool player Mysti, they have taken the odd scalp but I dont think there has been any great success at the very top of the sport.
We dont know how it works the other way as I dont think many players from a pool background try and play snooker though Id imagine Cliff Thorburn probably came from a pool background originally.
Im sure that if the yanks had played snooker instead of pool they would have produced some pretty special players,

Do you think it's a game that fits with the American sporting psyche? Too much patience involved I think.

My vote goes to SRR by default..

That's the spirit!

Selby was a top Pool player before taking up snooker. One thing is for sure. pool is a damn site easier to play than Snooker.

super_realist wrote:Do you think it's a game that fits with the American sporting psyche? Too much patience involved I think.

Have you ever watched any baseball ?

Stella wrote:Selby was a top Pool player before taking up snooker. One thing is for sure. pool is a damn site easier to play than Snooker.

Its a lot easier to play to a certain level.

There's an atmosphere though at baseball, snooker doesn't really fit in with the dynamic, high scoring demands of an American audience, plus they aren't good at keeping quiet. Perhaps a bit too tactical for them to embrace it too.
Too often it's a war of attrition.

Diggers wrote:

Stella wrote:Selby was a top Pool player before taking up snooker. One thing is for sure. pool is a damn site easier to play than Snooker.

Its a lot easier to play to a certain level.

Yep, that's what I meant, but didn't say.

Diggers gonna be honest i am a massive 9 ball fan and snooker fan. I played 9 ball semi pro at one stage., And yes many snooker players have great pool records yet hardly play the game.. They cant as there sceduling is to much. Pool players do not have the skill levels to play snooker from the off. All though i do admit that offcourse america would produce top snooker players if they played it more- as would any country with a big population, and there is no reason why pool players couldnt get good at snooker- but it truely would take years of practise

Mark selby has won the 8 ball champs. Many snooker players get into the top few in europe at pool.

"The tournament has featured some of the most famous players in cue sports, including Earl Strickland, Johnny Archer, Paul Gerni, Nick Varner, Lou Butera, Jim Rempe, Dallas West, Jimmy White, Alex Higgins, Ronnie O'Sullivan, Ralf Souquet, and Steve Davis."

, You really do need to up your skills to play snooker as a pool player only.Canada does play snooker quite alot by the way , so there is no reason to suggest thorburn was a pool player first- however thats immaterial many players are- however the practise they need to get to becoming a snooker player from a pool player takes years. whereas a snooker player can just jump in and compete at pool..

Dont really see your point, theres an atmosphere at a snooker match as well, especially at the Masters which is on now. The yanks love baseball and not much goes on for ages and its not like the crowd are baying away all day. Its their equivalent of cricket and shows thats its not all about instant gratification.

Baseball, like cricket (and I say this as a cricket fan) is a sport that benefits from the fact that spectators at the ground can drink alcohol in their seats. Otherwise, the lack of action at times would drive you to distraction. Exhibit A:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwGybS6TWEM

9 ball pool?

Diggers wrote:

super_realist wrote:Do you think it's a game that fits with the American sporting psyche? Too much patience involved I think.

Have you ever watched any baseball ?

Or indeed US football, which is moreover very tactical.

9 ball pool is the best pool game by a mile Stella.. I love it- the shots that can be played..

mystiroakey wrote:Diggers gonna be honest i am a massive 9 ball fan and snooker fan. I played 9 ball semi pro at one stage., And yes many snooker players have great pool records yet hardly play the game.. They cant as there sceduling is to much. Pool players do not have the skill levels to play snooker from the off. All though i do admit that offcourse america would produce top snooker players if they played it more- as would any country with a big population, and there is no reason why pool players couldnt get good at snooker- but it truely would take years of practise

Mark selby has won the 8 ball champs. Many snooker players get into the top few in europe at pool.

"The tournament has featured some of the most famous players in cue sports, including Earl Strickland, Johnny Archer, Paul Gerni, Nick Varner, Lou Butera, Jim Rempe, Dallas West, Jimmy White, Alex Higgins, Ronnie O'Sullivan, Ralf Souquet, and Steve Davis."

, You really do need to up your skills to play snooker as a pool player only.Canada does play snooker quite alot by the way , so there is no reason to suggest thorburn was a pool player first- however thats immaterial many players are- however the practise they need to get to becoming a snooker player from a pool player takes years. whereas a snooker player can just jump in and compete at pool..

Mysti, fair enough, I know a lot of the best snooker players try and play pool....but do you have any examples of pools equivalent talents to Davis trying their hand at snooker ? As far as I know it doesnt happen so we dont have a like for like comparison but happy to be proved wrong.

Quick question about SRR (genuine question, so excuse my ignorance):

how global was boxing in his day in terms of participating countries? I accept it was a big sport in the US and parts of Europe, but what about the likes of Latin America and Africa? How does it compare to football in the 60s?

mystiroakey wrote:9 ball pool is the best pool game by a mile Stella.. I love it- the shots that can be played..

But the pockets are about twice as big as the ball. At least, it looks like that. Prefer 8 ball. I was pretty decent a few years ago, although one bad break and you can get beaten even by an average player.

That doesn't happen in Snooker.