v2 G.O.A.T Round 1 Group 7

First topic message reminder :

Monday’s group was a two horse race from the very start of the day with voting split between Basketball legend Michael Jordan and 18 time major title winner Jack Nicklaus. Jordan eventually progressed through in 1st place with 47% of the vote to Nicklaus's 28% who makes in to round 2 as group 6 runner up.

Today’s group sees Motor Racing, Football, Snooker and Boxing compete for your votes.

We have the three participants championed today with articles written by forum members, so please feel free to submit your own argument below for the one not championed.

Please vote for the competitor you believe has achieved the most in sport and should progress into the next round.

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Pele- Football- Championed by paperbag_puncher

Only when I sat down to write this article did the sheer scale of what I was attempting to do hit me. This article should really write itself, yet there are no words that can accurately describe the greatness of 'The King of Football' There are few human beings throughout history in any walk of life who have reached the iconic status of Pele.
“My name is Ronald Reagan, I’m the President of the United States of America. But you don’t need to introduce yourself, because everyone knows who Pele is.”
Ronald Reagan

Like most young boys I grew up hearing stories of this mythical man from Brazil who could create magic with his feet. I’d always been told of his greatness and happily accepted it but I was doing the man a great disservice by simply accepting it. Only as I got older and researched further did I realise how great he actually was. I am genuinely grateful that I have agreed to write this piece as it has given me the opportunity to revisit and explore the career of arguably the greatest sports person to have graced this earth.

There is no doubt in my mind that Pele was the most complete player of those who are generally mentioned in the greatest ever debates. Blessed with an unbelievable combination of pace, power, balance and close control he beat defenders at will making everything look effortless. Capable of the unpredictable and the sublime he was very much ahead of his time. Two footed and lethal in the air he was the ultimate goal scorer. The famous stat of 1281 goals in 1363 games is testament to this.

Pele said in 2006: "For 20 years they have asked me the same question, who is the greatest? Pele or Maradona? I reply that all you have to do is look at the facts - how many goals did he score with his right foot or with his head?"

Pele made his debut for Santos at the tender age of 15 scoring on his debut in 1956. By the time the 1957 season came around he was a first team regular and finished as the league’s top scorer. Just 10 months later he was called up to the Brazilian national team scoring in a 2-1 defeat to Argentina making him the youngest ever international scorer at 16 years and 9 months. He would go on to become and still is Brazil’s top goal scorer with a remarkable 77 goals in 92 games.

1958 was Pele’s breakout year and he announced himself to the world in style. He won his first major title the Campeonato Paulista with Santos scoring a record 58 goals along the way (a record that still stands) He was selected for the 1958 World Cup at the insistence of of his team mates despite being injured, which shows the regard the 17 year old was already held in. He played a pivotal role scoring the winner against Wales in the quarters, a hat-trick against France and another brace Vs Sweden in the final on his way to becoming the youngest ever World Cup Winner.

Brazil repeated the trick in 1962 but did it without Pele who injured himself in the second game having looked ominously bright in the opening game. The 1966 was even worse for him. Pele was ruthlessly and cynically targeted by opposing defences meaning he missed the loss to Hungary and was never at his best for the two games he did play. Without their talisman the defending champions were eliminated in the first round.
He got his redemption in 1970 inspiring perhaps the greatest team of all time to a third world cup success. Pele at the peak of his powers won the player of the tournament and provided us with two of his most iconic moments. Had his lob from the half way line against the Czechs or his audacious dummy to round the Uruguayan goalie resulted in goals they surely would have been 2 of the greatest in World Cup history.

At one stage it was universally accepted that Pele was the greatest footballer of all time. In recent years it has almost become fashionable to dismiss his claim and achievements in favour of two little Argies. There are two sticks that are usually used to beat him which are contradictory for me. True he never tested himself in Europe. Having been named a ‘national treasure’ by the Brazilian Government and not being allowed to be ‘exported’ he spent his best years in his native land. However, we do have some clues as to how he would have fared had he moved to a big European club. His goals record and performances at international level leave me unequivocally convinced that he would have burned it up in any league. Also Santos (mainly to be able to afford his wages) regularly toured and faced the biggest clubs in Europe where Pele showed he was still on another level. The other criticism is that he was part of the greatest international team ever and had world class team mates around him which somehow should dilute his success. Many of these same team mates also predominantly played in Brazil yet this isn’t held against the likes of Garrincha, Rivelino, Tostao or Jairzinho who regularly had to play second fiddle to Pele and his Santos team. Nor is it held against one Lionel Messi who is a part of the greatest team I have ever seen. Like Messi now, Pele was the undoubted jewel in a beautiful crown.

For me, to be worthy of being called the greatest sports person of all time you need to tick several boxes. You must be supremely talented and have a strong argument to be the GOAT in your own sport. In my opinion you also have to have transcended your own sport and have made a widespread universal and lasting impact. With all due respect to the big hitters who have been voted through so far, most people have no idea who Bradman, Merckx etc are. While this may not be a popularity contest Pele’s notoriety and worldwide acclaim stemmed solely from his prodigious talent and countless achievements. He wasn’t a character, he wasn’t a loveable rogue. He did all his talking with his feet and his reputation is a product of his talent alone.

I have used a lot of words despite originally stating words could not do the great man justice. Still for me Pele is a treat best enjoyed visually. Watching him nutmeg two defenders and rounding the keeper or seeing him effortlessly flicking the ball over a defender’s head and volleying home is still jaw dropping even today. I will leave you with some quotes from his peers and contemporaries who say it a lot better than I ever could.

"I told myself before the game, 'he's made of skin and bones just like everyone else'. But I was wrong.”
Tarcisio Burgnich, the Italy defender who marked Pele in the Mexico 1970 Final

“The difficulty, the extraordinary, is not to score 1,000 goals like Pele – it’s to score one goal like Pele.”
Carlos Drummond de Andrade, Brazilian poet

“The greatest player in history was Di Stefano. I refuse to classify Pele as a player. He was above that.”
Ferenc Puskas

“After the fifth goal, even I wanted to cheer for him.”
Sigge Parling of Sweden on a 5-2 defeat by Brazil in the 1958 FIFA World Cup Final

“I arrived hoping to stop a great man, but I went away convinced I had been undone by someone who was not born on the same planet as the rest of us.”
Costa Pereira on Benfica’s 5-2 loss to Santos in the 1962 Intercontinental Cup in Lisbon

"Pele was the greatest – he was simply flawless. And off the pitch he is always smiling and upbeat. You never see him bad-tempered. He loves being Pele.” Tostao

“When I saw Pele play, it made me feel I should hang up my boots.”
Just Fontaine

“Pele was one of the few who contradicted my theory: instead of 15 minutes of fame, he will have 15 centuries.”
Andy Warhol

“Pele was the only footballer who surpassed the boundaries of logic.”
Johan Cruyff

“His great secret was improvisation. Those things he did were in one moment. He had an extraordinary perception of the game.”
Carlos Alberto Torres

“I sometimes feel as though football was invented for this magical player.”
Sir Bobby Charlton

"Pele played football for 22 years, and in that time he did more to promote world friendship and fraternity than any other ambassador anywhere.”
J.B. Pinheiro, the Brazilian ambassador to the United Nations

Malcolm Allison: “How do you spell Pele?”
Pat Crerand: “Easy: G-O-D.”
British television commentators during Mexico 1970

Pelé is the greatest player of all time. He reigned supreme for 20 years. All the others – Diego Maradona, Johan Cruyff, Michel Platini – rank beneath him. There's no one to compare with Pelé.
—West Germany's 1974 FIFA World Cup-winning captain Franz Beckenbauer

The best player ever? Pelé. Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo are both great players with specific qualities, but Pelé was better.
—Real Madrid legend Alfredo Di Stéfano

Stephen Hendry- Snooker- Championed by The Special Juan

The Early Years

“I wanted to be the best and, for a short while, I was.”

This quote, from an interview with Stephen Hendry shortly after he retired, sums up what type of person he was. Hendry was a winner; someone who put in the hours of practice required to compete and dominate at the very top of any sport and expected nothing less than victory at each tournament. Some may say Ronnie O’Sullivan is the most naturally talented snooker player of all time and whilst that may be true, Hendry is not far behind.

Hendry first picked up a cue when he was 12 and merely 4 years later he was competing at the Crucible in the World Championships; an astounding achievement (he was the youngest player ever to play at the Crucible, a record which stood until very recently at the 2012 World Championships). The sign of what was to come in his career was evident almost immediately. Two weeks after he started playing he made a break of 52 and two years later he was winning tournaments.

His first of 36 ranking titles came in the 1987/88 Grand Prix where he defeated the former World Champion Dennis Taylor in the final. He also defeated the then greatest player in the world Steve Davis in the last sixteen.

The Peak Years

As the years progressed, the titles racked up for Hendry. His third ranking title was the UK Championship, snooker’s second most prestigious prize, in 1988 and he did not have to wait long until he landed the first of seven World Championships (a record in the Crucible era).

In 1990 Stephen Hendry faced Jimmy White, in the first of four finals between the two players (they subsequently met in three consecutive finals from 1992-1994), in the World Championship final. Although the tournament perhaps is most remembered for Alex Higgins punching an official in the stomach and then threatening to have Dennis Taylor shot, Hendry lifted the trophy after triumphing 18-12 in the final and became the youngest ever World Champion aged 21 years old, a record which still stands. By winning the World Championship, he also became the second player to win all three events in snooker’s Triple Crown (the World, UK and Masters titles) in the same season.

Continuing into the next season, Hendry defended both his UK and Masters titles, with the only shock in an otherwise successful season (he won 5 ranking titles in total + the Masters) being that he did not manage to defend his Crucible crown. This made him angry and for the next six seasons he would go on one of sport’s great winning runs by winning 29 consecutive Crucible matches. This included winning five consecutive titles and reaching six consecutive finals; his magnificent run coming to an end after losing to Ken Doherty in the 1997 final. This run also saw one of the Crucible’s greatest comebacks when, in the 1992 final, Hendry rallied from 14-8 down against Jimmy White to rattle off 10 consecutive frames and win the match 18-14, thus breaking the hearts of audience and Jimmy alike.

The 1995/96 season proved fruitful for Hendry when he again won the Triple Crown, becoming the first player to win the Triple Crown twice in their career. Unfortunately for Hendry, this proved to be his last great season due to a combination of factors, but there was still life in the old dog yet.

King Hendry

Hendry arrived at the Crucible in 1999 having lost his World Number 1 ranking which he had held for eight years and having suffered first round exits in both the Masters and UK Championship that season. There, he recorded probably his single greatest accomplishment, winning a seventh World Championship (a new record) and beating top quality players along the way; Paul Hunter, James Wattana, Matthew Stevens, Ronnie O’Sullivan and Mark J Williams in the final. This was to be Hendry’s last hoorah as he was unceremoniously dumped out in the first round the next year. He continued to pick up the odd ranking title and reach a few more major finals but after victory in the 2005 Malta Cup there were to be no more ranking titles for the great man and, after making a 147 break in his first round victory against Stuart Bingham and producing a demolition job against defending champion John Higgins in the 2012 World Championship, Hendry suffered a hammering from fellow Scot Stephen Maguire. Enough was enough and in the press conference afterwards, Hendry announced his immediate retirement from the sport. Some put his rather sudden downward spiral down to age, others to the emergence of Williams, Higgins and O’Sullivan but perhaps the one event that signalled the end was nigh was when the cue Hendry had used throughout his career was snapped when travelling.

Key to Hendry’s domination of the sport was his break building. Never one for extended safety battles, Hendry would use his deadly long potting to sink a red and get in prime position around the black ball. This, along with his incredible middle pocket potting, allowed him to rack up the most century breaks in snooker; 775 including 11 maximums. This video sums up Hendry’s career (and the first pot was no fluke either). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBIslTfHpnM

As mentioned, Hendry won a total of 36 ranking events which included a further 21 major finals. He also won another 32 non-ranking finals, making a combined total of 68 tournament wins during his career. Career highlights included:

Seven World Championships (a record) including five consecutive titles
Five UK Championships including three consecutive titles
Six Masters including five consecutive titles
An MBE in 1994
Being World Number 1 for nine years in total

Other records Hendry holds included:
Most centuries in one tournament
Most centuries compiled in one match
Highest prize money won
Oldest player ever to compile a 147 in competitive play

So after so many titles, century breaks and domination in his sport, he is certainly a contender for the greatest sportsman of all time; not just for what he achieved in his sport but for the person he was; hard-working, ruthless and successful.

Sugar Ray Robinson- Boxing- Championed by superflyweight

Let’s start at the beginning for the man almost universally recognised as pound for pound, the greatest boxer who ever lived. Walker Smith Junior was born 3rd May 1921 and following his family's move to New York, started boxing in a local Harlem gym. At 14 he wanted to enter a tournament and in order to circumvent the age restrictions (the minimum age was 16) he borrowed his older friend's Amateur Athletic Union card. His friend's name was Ray Robinson. The "Sugar" (a reference to his "sweet style") came later but from the moment he borrowed his friend's identity, a legend was born.

Robinson quickly went about putting together an outstanding amateur C.V. eventually racking up a record of 85 wins with no defeats. 69 of those wins were via knockout and 40 of those came in the first round. He was Golden Gloves featherweight champion in 1939 and then lightweight champion in 1940.

Turning pro in 1940 at the age of just 19, Robinson quickly went about making a name for himself, comprehensively beating current lightweight champion, Sammy Angott (who had refused to put his belt on the line) in just his 21st fight and then twice defeating (the second via a stoppage) the experienced master of the dark arts and former welterweight champion, Fritzie Zivic. A few fights later he won an unanimous decision against future middleweight great, Jake La Motta who outweighed Sugar that night by almost 13lbs (two whole weight classes in today's fight scene). Robinson was no protected fighter and fights against Angott, Zivic and La Motta as well as other tough, experienced opponents (including an ageing Henry Armstrong who is often regarded as the second greatest boxer who ever lived), represents a tough induction for a young fighter who was a relative novice. Despite this tough induction, it wasn't until his 40th fight that Robinson tasted defeat, losing a decision in his second fight against La Motta who outweighed him by 16lbs that night.

How did Robinson react to that defeat? He went unbeaten for the next 8 years winning 91 fights in the process defeating La Motta another 4 times along the way. Across their 6 fights, La Motta (who was a top drawer and very tough middleweight who would go on to win the middleweight title from the great Marcel Cerdan) outweighed Robinson by an average of 12lbs.

During that run of 91 victories, Robinson eventually won the welterweight title in 1946 at the age of 25 (boxing politics (in the form of the notorious Mob run, International Boxing Club) had kept him away from the title). Having amassed a record of 75 wins, 1 draw and 1 defeat, Robinson was allowed to compete for the vacant welterweight world title, triumphing with a unanimous decision over Tommy Bell. Finally, the man everyone knew was the best welterweight on the planet, had the belt that was rightfully his. Robinson remained undefeated as welterweight champion until he vacated the belt in 1950. During his reign he notched up wins against fellow welterweight great and future champion, Kid Gavilan before increasing problems making the 147lbs weight limit had Sugar setting his sights on the middleweight division.

Robinson won the middleweight title from La Motta in the infamous Valentine's Day Massacre which features prominently in the film Raging Bull. La Motta was stopped in brutal fashion in the 13th (the only legitimate stoppage of the legendary granite chinned, La Motta in 95 fights) and Robinson was champion at a second weight. Robinson subsequently went on a valedictory tour of Europe (fighting in various European cities against European opponents) which by all accounts was little more than one long party. Robinson turned up in the UK slightly worse for wear and somewhat undercooked and lost his title to Britain's own Randy Turpin having been outpointed over 15 rounds. Robinson immediately won the title back from Turpin, stopping him in the 10th round when behind on the cards. Robinson then defended the title a further twice against future champion, Bobo Olsen and former champion Rocky Graziano.

Having successfully defended his middleweight title, Robinson immediately turned his attention to Joey Maxim’s light heavyweight title. Against a very fine light heavyweight in Maxim and operating in a division way above his welterweight peak, Robinson was well ahead on all of the cards when he failed to emerge for the 14th round due to heat exhaustion. The fight had been held outdoors at Yankee Stadium in New York in sweltering heat and humidity and in the end it proved too much for Sugar. Following that defeat, Robinson immediately announced his first retirement from the sport.

Robinson stayed retired for 2 and a ½ years before returning at middleweight to take the title back from Bobo Olsen (via a 2nd round knockout) at the age of 34. His form on his return was patchy – he would lose the title three times (regaining it twice) but it was in this run of fights that contained Robinson’s greatest and perhaps most famous moment in the ring. At the age of 35 and up against the formidable champion Gene Fullmer (a man who had already beaten Robinson convincingly in their previous fight), Robinson was just about holding his own and then in the 5th round unleashed what many consider to be the greatest knockout punch of all time. Robinson hit Fullmer with a lightning quick left hook to the jaw which sent Gene plummeting to the floor. The fight was over in an instant and Robinson was middleweight champion for the fourth time. How good was the punch? Judge for yourself in the video below and consider that Fullmer had never been off his feet in any fight until that point and was considered iron jawed. Here’s what Fullmer had to say about it – “I still don’t know anything about the punch except I watched it on movies a number of times. The first thing I knew, I was standing up. I asked my manager, ‘What happened?’ and he said, ‘They counted ten.’”

Robinson would lose and win back the title once more and then would fail in a couple of more title challenges. However, he was long past his best by this point and pushing 40. Unfortunately Robinson (driven by a need to keep earning money) would fight on for many more years and would tarnish his record by losing to men who would not have been fit to get in the ring with him at his peak. This should not detract from how good he was. If we consider him only at his peak (generally recognised as being everything up to , but not including the Joey Maxim fight), he amassed a record of 128 wins, 1 draw and 2 defeats. Just incredible numbers made more incredible by the names on his record. Robinson defeated 10 Hall of Famer’s in his career; Jake Lamotta, Sammy Angott, Fritzie Zivic, Henry Armstrong, Kid Gavilan, Rocky Graziano, Randy Turpin, Gene Fullmer and Carmen Basilio.

The following description of Robinson is by Monte Cox and is taken from the excellent website “Cox’s Corner” and it describes Robinson better than I ever could:

“What other fighter could beat you more ways than could Sugar Ray Robinson? Ray could out box boxers and out punch punchers. He could do it inside or outside, going forward or backward. Ray could do it with his powerful left hook as he did against Gene Fullmer or with his perfect straight right as he did against Rocky Graziano. Joe Louis could throw triple left hooks with speed, power and accuracy that could destroy a man. Robinson could throw triple left hooks and triple right hooks that could do the same. Who else could do that and maintain frightening power?... Ray Robinson was the archetype of a complete fighter. If one combines his polished, grand boxing style with his powerful punching and cast iron chin with a will to win unsurpassed in the annals of boxing one has a perfect fighter.

“To sum it up, Robinson was the consummate professional fighter who possessed every physical asset; speed, agility, mobility, and tremendous punching power. He rates among a select few of the all time greats who could defeat fighters using their own best assets against them. Robinson, a true sharpshooter, easily rates among the best pound for pound punchers in history. Robinson is possibly the greatest combination puncher of all time. His quality of opposition is among the top five. Ray’s peak won-loss record is among the top three. Ray’s overall ring record and accomplishments also rate among the top three. Robinson is among the top five of all time in the category of longevity. Ray had all the intangibles, great experience, killer instinct, a tremendous chin and heart.”

Let’s finish by looking at what his fellow greats had to say about him:

“Someone once said there was a comparison between Sugar Ray Leonard and Sugar Ray Robinson. Believe me, there's no comparison. Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest."
Sugar Ray Leonard

“The king, the master, my idol.”
“That man was beautiful. Timing, speed, reflexes, rhythm, his body, everything was beautiful. And to me, still, I would say pound for pound...I'd say I'm the greatest heavyweight of all time, but pound for pound, I still say Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest of all time.”
Muhammad Ali

Quite simply, Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest boxer who ever lived and operated the peak of one of the toughest sports for a period of more than 20 years. He is regarded as far and away the greatest welterweight who ever lived (ahead of men like Armstrong, Sugar Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns and Jose Naploles) and most observers have him in their top 5 middleweights. He had great talent, he faced and beat the best and he reigned at the top for an incredible period of time. In short, he was the complete sportsman!

I suppose if we had a big american community we might have a 10 pin bolwer on here.

I will never forget hearing a 10 pin boilwing champ saying it was tougher and more skillfull than golf..

Lol i would love to let SR on him!!

"Mysti, fair enough, I know a lot of the best snooker players try and play pool....but do you have any examples of pools equivalent talents to Davis trying their hand at snooker ? As far as I know it doesnt happen so we dont have a like for like comparison but happy to be proved wrong"

TBH you only need to understand the mechanics of the cue/baize games to work it out diggs..

Btw they dont just try and play pool- they play pool and win more than they lose.

This is coming form a 9 ball player btw - I prefer the game and think the game is ubber skillfull and the most exiting form of the cue ball games..

I have played both games an awful lot Mysti so fully aware of how they work...and you never answered my question.

mystiroakey wrote:I suppose if we had a big american community we might have a 10 pin bolwer on here.

I will never forget hearing a 10 pin boilwing champ saying it was tougher and more skillfull than golf..

Lol i would love to let SR on him!!

Ha ha, nothing more boring than bowling.

Reminds me of a commentator who described the repulsive Ray Floyd as an athlete.

You mean what pool players have gone into snooker.. well many have but they have had to practise very hard at snooker first to become competitive, or they have played both games alot to start with..

Americans havent on the whole(the place were 9 ball is big) . But snooker just isnt big enough a game over there for it to be inviting enough i suppose. I suppose its why not many NfL players switch codes to rugby..

I dont think Id watch bowling on the TV but its ag reat night out with a few beers.

Diggers wrote:I dont think Id watch bowling on the TV but its ag reat night out with a few beers.

It is, minus the bowling

Latin Americans started to come into top-class boxing in the late 20s and early 30s, via men such as Sixto Escobar and Panama Al Brown. Asians had had the odd pre-war champion such as Ceferino Garcia and Pancho Villa, but again, really started to take off in the 50s. The same is also true of the Africans, who had Battling Siki (Senegalese) from the 20s, but really started to gather as a boxing power after the war.

Stella wrote:

Diggers wrote:I dont think Id watch bowling on the TV but its ag reat night out with a few beers.

It is, minus the bowling

Fair point, sometimes its nice to have something to do while you are having that beer though.

I really enjoy the game...

But we could certainly make the same arguments against 10 pin bolwing as people do for darts!!

An almost close fit for 9 ball compared to snooker would be t20 to test cricket.

Many Test players can play t20 straight of the hip..

No t20 specialist players could off the hip play test.

Eventually with alot of patience and practise and tecnique they could probally pass at test cricket.

Some excellent write ups and comments today.

Four worthy contenders although, for me, two are a fair way ahead.

Motor racing is not my bag which means Schumacher starts some way off pole position. Excellent driver though he undoubtedly was, I find it too difficult to distinguish between the strengths of the driver, his car and his team. For a motor racing GOAT, I would hark back to an earlier less technically sophisticated age and plump for Fangio.

Hendry was a very fine snooker player and for a time combined the placement of Steve Davies with the excitement of Alex Higgins. However, his time was but a moment when compared to the legendary (and I use the term with thought) Joe Davis. Davis was undefeated world snooker champion on 15 occassions spanning 20 years (WWII accounted for 5 years) and also 4 times world billiards championwhen that sport was on a par with snooker. In addition, Davis scored the first ever official century break and the first ever official 147 maximum. I don't state this to denigrate Hendry but to show why he can never be my snooker GOAT. [With such an outstanding foursome, candidates need to be their sport's GOAT - or incredibly close to it - to get my vote today. Where is Gavin Hastings when you need him? ]

A superb case made by Superfly for Robinson with a very fitting clip. Impressed by his record and even more so by the testimonies of boxing's great and good. On almost any other day, he would get my vote. Such a dreadful shame that his life ended with him being an impoverished and washed up figure. I do wonder - and I stand ready to be slaughtered by the boxing board here if I'm out of order - if he brought some of that on himself and could have done more to prevent that happening, not only to him but others like him. Again, apologies if this is incorrect, but I believe the boxing entourage and the worst excesses of it arose - or at least, substantially developed - from Robinson. Easier said than done, I appreciate, but when Robinson retired, how good it would have been if he had sought to use his position of influence for the good of the sport and its competitors. I appreciate this is a long way removed from Superfly's stunning case; I'm just trying to show - in almost certainly a cackhanded way - that for me a boxing GOAT needs to demonstrate superiority both in and outside the ring. No prizes for guessing my boxing GOAT.

That leaves my vote now going to Pele. A super write up from Paperbag. Loved the quote from Warhol which I hadn't heard before. I had the great pleasure - one of the few current advantages of late middle age! - of being able to watch on tv almost all of the 1970 World Cup tournament and sat in awe at the beauty of the game as played by Brazil. They were probably the greatest team I have ever seen in any sport (and, yes, fellow cucumber sandwich munchers that includes the West Indian cricketers of the 1980s!). In my view but far, far more importantly that of his team mates, Pele stood head and shoulders above the rest of that wonderful side.

guildford,
One of the advantages of impending old age is that I saw Pele! At Villa Park in 1972.
One of only a very small handful of sportsmen who should be in GOAT contention.

Edit: Just found this account:

http://www.avfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10265~2618402,00.html

Difficult to believe they were a Third Division club with some of those players. They had a Director called Harry Cressman who was the guy behind the Bristol Street Motors Group where I worked for for a while. He had a special RPQ with IBM etc demanding that every computer mainframe and peripherals were painted claret and blue!

I'm one of the very few who went with Schumacher. I think he's getting a raw deal on here TBH, in terms of world titles, or races won, or indeed pole positions, he's miles ahead of the rest of his field. People say things like "only won in the best car", but forget that Schumacher after winning his first world title with Benneton (who had a very good car, if maybe not quite as good as the Williams), he left them for what was at the time a mediocre Ferrari outfit. That Ferrari turned themselves around to be the dominating car (in the end by a distance when McLaren faded) was in no small part due to Schumacher's input.

or anyone else pre 1970 kwini?

Mad for Chelsea wrote:I'm one of the very few who went with Schumacher. I think he's getting a raw deal on here TBH, in terms of world titles, or races won, or indeed pole positions, he's miles ahead of the rest of his field. People say things like "only won in the best car", but forget that Schumacher after winning his first world title with Benneton (who had a very good car, if maybe not quite as good as the Williams), he left them for what was at the time a mediocre Ferrari outfit. That Ferrari turned themselves around to be the dominating car (in the end by a distance when McLaren faded) was in no small part due to Schumacher's input.

allways question marks though.. and also remember that not only was he in a top car due to the team skills and his input- rememebr that especially back in that day ferrari had so much of an advantage over other teams..

ferrari get to see the the next seasons rule changes before any other team- if they dont like them they can vitto them(not sure if this still goes on or not to be honest)- but it definently did in that day.

they also get double the prize money if they win the constructers- 100 m rather than 50 million(what any other team gets)

Not saying that schumaker isnt deserving and it certainly isnt his fault he was at ferrari- But the sport has to many question marks over it for me..

mysti,
Don't get you . . . . . ?

Its a big if...but if Messi manages to lead Argentina to world cup glory in Brazil and at the same time stays at Barca who continue to win countless championships and champions leagues do we think he will leapfrog Pele and Maradona ?
Actually the only real if is the Argentina element, Id imagine bar injury that the rest of it will happen for another 5 or 6 years. Lots more Ballon D'Ors to come for the little man methinks.

kwinigolfer wrote:mysti,
Don't get you . . . . . ?

just your stance on nicklaus over woods, then pele..

mystiroakey wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:I'm one of the very few who went with Schumacher. I think he's getting a raw deal on here TBH, in terms of world titles, or races won, or indeed pole positions, he's miles ahead of the rest of his field. People say things like "only won in the best car", but forget that Schumacher after winning his first world title with Benneton (who had a very good car, if maybe not quite as good as the Williams), he left them for what was at the time a mediocre Ferrari outfit. That Ferrari turned themselves around to be the dominating car (in the end by a distance when McLaren faded) was in no small part due to Schumacher's input.

allways question marks though.. and also remember that not only was he in a top car due to the team skills and his input- rememebr that especially back in that day ferrari had so much of an advantage over other teams..

ferrari get to see the the next seasons rule changes before any other team- if they dont like them they can vitto them(not sure if this still goes on or not to be honest)- but it definently did in that day.

they also get double the prize money if they win the constructers- 100 m rather than 50 million(what any other team gets)

Not saying that schumaker isnt deserving and it certainly isnt his fault he was at ferrari- But the sport has to many question marks over it for me..

maybe, but the fact remains that when Schumacher joined them, they were a pretty mediocre outfit. He won six titles with them, eventually leading to rule changes which brought Renault to the front. Since Schumacher left Ferrari? Just one world title (Raikonnen), and over the last few seasons once again a pretty average outfit (despite Alonso's superb driving). That for me tells you enough about the influence Schumacher had...

Diggers wrote:Its a big if...but if Messi manages to lead Argentina to world cup glory in Brazil and at the same time stays at Barca who continue to win countless championships and champions leagues do we think he will leapfrog Pele and Maradona ?
Actually the only real if is the Argentina element, Id imagine bar injury that the rest of it will happen for another 5 or 6 years. Lots more Ballon D'Ors to come for the little man methinks.

yep , but i cant see that happening. Although i think talent wise he is the GOAT(messi) for me

I think inesta is possibly one of the best ever players if we talk about influence and wins(club and country)- he just isnt your typical dribbler that allways seems to win these things!

Id guess Spain will still be favourites Mysti but I cant see beyond them or Brazil or Argentina in 2014.
Messi definitely beginning to play more like himself for them now, 12 goals last year is a big improvement, conditions will suit them, I think they have a good shout.

Ah, Well!

Simple really.
I would say both changed the game, almost beyond recognition with standards of competence (Nicklaus - still four Majors ahead of Eldrick DuBois) and athleticism (Pele) that transcended their sport.

Football was very much a parochial European sport (notwithstanding '30's era World Cups) when Pele burst on to the Stockholm scene in 1958.
('Course, we'll never know if Duncan Edwards would have surpassed Pele's achievements, but sadly he never got the chance.)

And Nicklaus took what Palmer had brought to a whole new public and took the game to a whole new level, on the course and in the record book. Woods might surpass him but he hasn't so far and I, for one, doubt that he ever will.

PS: I voted for Jordan (ahead of Nicklaus), can't remember the rest!

yep good points MFC..
however we also need to understand that brawn was also at ferrari at that time. And we could say he was the defining factor.

To add he was also at beneton!

kwinigolfer wrote:Ah, Well!

Simple really.
I would say both changed the game, almost beyond recognition with standards of competence (Nicklaus - still four Majors ahead of Eldrick DuBois) and athleticism (Pele) that transcended their sport.

Football was very much a parochial European sport (notwithstanding '30's era World Cups) when Pele burst on to the Stockholm scene in 1958.
('Course, we'll never know if Duncan Edwards would have surpassed Pele's achievements, but sadly he never got the chance.)

And Nicklaus took what Palmer had brought to a whole new public and took the game to a whole new level, on the course and in the record book. Woods might surpass him but he hasn't so far and I, for one, doubt that he ever will.

PS: I voted for Jordan (ahead of Nicklaus), can't remember the rest!

two true goats.. i couldnt split them but went for nicklaus due to a bigger knowledge of golf

Went for Schumacher, not only winning his first two titles with the inferior Bennetton car but then completely reversing the fortunes of Ferrari to give them unparalleled domination of the sport after almost 20 years of nothing.

Pele one of the greatest footballers but only played in his homeland.

Robinson, amazing fighter but lost to quite a few poor fighters, then again if you fight as much as he did it's bound to happen.

Hendry utter domination similar to Schumacher or Woods at their peak but not the strongest competition.

Could make a good case for all 4 but i'll go for Schumacher.

monty junior:
"Pele only played in his homeland"

Cobblers. Don't World Cups count???????????????????????????

PS; If you scroll up a few posts you'll see a link to his appearance at Villa Park in 1972, past his best obviously, and not a competitive game, just fyi for true fans.

Kwini - we apparently have to accept that football didn't start until SKY and the Premier League appeared on the scene.

guildfordbat wrote:Kwini - we apparently have to accept that football didn't start until SKY and the Premier League appeared on the scene.

I hope not I'm a Villa fan we used to win stuff occasionally before that. (OK very occasionally)

i think the problem is guildford is that some cant accept that footballers are still good even now that overall levels have improved, participation has quadroupled and its shown on telly????

Emile Heskey played at Villa Park

Pele did score most of his goals in an inferior league(s) but IMO, his international record is second to none.

pele is only judged on his international performanceswhich is fair enough. Does any one take into account what he did on his domestic level.

Also we must realise back in that day international football was the pinnacle of the sport ,these days we could argue that the CL is..

88Chris05 wrote:Love Stephen Hendry to death; revolutionised snooker and is responsible more than any other man for helping to usher in the ultra-aggressive generation of players such as O'Sullivan, Trump and Robertson which we see today rather than the more measured types like Davis, Thorburn and Griffiths who went before.

Remarkably consistent and driven, too - what O'Sullivan manages to do for one-off tournaments here and there, Hendry was doing tournament after tournament, season after season in his nineties pomp. Of all the most coveted records in snooker, it's unbelievable how many of them he owns. The way he valiantly held off the charge of O'Sullivans, Higgins, Williams et al while past his best was supremely admirable; his semi-final victories over O'Sullivan in the 1999 and 2002 World Championship tournaments showed Hendry at his very best, in all senses. On top of that, I had the pleasure of meeting him once and he was what I'd want a sportsman to be; humble, approachable and self-deprecating.

He also never used gamesmanship or underhand tactics when he played (see the 1994 World Championship final when, with the match nearing its end and at a crucial stage, Hendry refused a free ball opportunity which the referee had given him, asking the referee to take another look at which point he realised his mistake). This was with the match at 17-16 to Hendry, just one frame away from victory.

I've gone for Hendry for the above reasons. Thank you Chris.

Ruled out the others for the following reasons :-
-Pele, not the best ever footballer in my opinion and once head butted an opponent during a match.
-Schumacher, not the best ever driver in my opinion and a face like Jimmy Hill's lovechild.
-SRR, don't know enough about him to vote for him.

[quote="Hibbz"]

88Chris05 wrote:
-SRR, don't know enough about him to vote for him.

I'll tell you what just take my word for it on this one and the next time I am unfamiliar with some of the nominees you can pick for me, I can't say fairer than that.

Ha ha too late, and I don't think Chris will be too impressed by what you've done by messing up the quote function!

mysti,
The only people who would say that the CL is bigger than the WC are those who make money out of the CL, to the detriment of the sport as a whole, I would say.

The fact that the sport, every sport, has improved is indisputable, but the guys and girls who are true greats are the ones that took their performance level so far ahead of their peers so as to open up wider horizons for the sport and future generations.

To be GOAT I think you have to extend the reach of your sport not just be the best within it. I think the influence of Pele not only transcends his sport, it transcends other sports and reaches beyond sport too. He gets my vote ahead of the others.

Yes - he was part of a team sport, but he shone out above all his different colleagues and opponents in many versions of the Brazil team containing many greats over an extended period.

For one of the 2 most powerful men on the planet in the early/mid 80's (or at least his speach writers!) to acknowledge that everyone knows who Pele is whilst fully introducing himself as the President of the USA (some years after Pele's "peak") just about sums my rationale up.

IMO - Pele should top this group

pele head butt
zidane head butt
marradona cheat driggie
roanldo cocky
messi flake at international level(well he was)
so that leaves inesta- my pick as the best ever footballer.

Not that i would normally vote based on these silly reasons.. But anyway to justify the best in footy in this case. I hope inesta is in the top 64!!

Hibbz wrote:Ha ha too late, and I don't think Chris will be too impressed by what you've done by messing up the quote function!

Unfortunate with it coming out saying Chris doesn't know about SRR, he has forgotten more about boxing than most of us could ever hope to know.

Rowley wrote:

Hibbz wrote:Ha ha too late, and I don't think Chris will be too impressed by what you've done by messing up the quote function!

Unfortunate with it coming out saying Chris doesn't know about SRR, he has forgotten more about boxing than most of us could ever hope to know.

Which is simply shocking at his relatively young age!!

kwinigolfer wrote:mysti,
The only people who would say that the CL is bigger than the WC are those who make money out of the CL, to the detriment of the sport as a whole, I would say.

The fact that the sport, every sport, has improved is indisputable, but the guys and girls who are true greats are the ones that took their performance level so far ahead of their peers so as to open up wider horizons for the sport and future generations.

no I really dont think so and i certainly dont make money out of the CL. I would say that the CL is a higher quality tourny than the WC these days..

I have my opinions on who is the best and I really dig deep into it as well. It is just so much harder to shine in an era of bigger talent pools and more oppurtunities to excel for all.

I see Frankel has just made it to be ranked best flat horse since the rankings started back in 1977. Does that get him on the list along with Mick the Miller ?

Well I suggested that a few threads ago Diggs in all fairness.. when we had the debate involving Mccoy

Superb horse

I thought I saw Frankel in the crowd at the SPOTY show Mysti but it was actually Beth Tweddle.

Another fantastic group, but again I see two real GOAT contenders and two I rate just a smidge lower.

The lower two: Hendry and Schumacher. Both clearly the best at their sport in the modern era and using any objective statistical evidence.

Hendry I see as the great 'all rounder' in that he combined almost as much natural skill as O'Sullivan with the work ethic and drive of Steve Davies and so made himself for about a decade simply the sublime player - so good in his prime that it was boring watching him as you knew he just wouldn't make a mistake.

Schumacher was an awesome driver for the era - it's a shame that Senna's death meant their careers only overlapped by about a season, and so (as with Federer and Sampras), a potentially great rivalry didn't quite happen. I still think the Benetton car he won his first two titles in was better than many credit - maybe it lacked power compared to the Williams, but it had more torque and drivability, handled better and was more reliable, and so in the hands of the best driver on the track, it was more than a match for everyone else. As for the revival of Ferrari, it is difficult to ascertain how important Schumacher was relative to Brawn or Todt, but suffice to say that the three of them combined (perhaps with help from the FIA and definitely from Bridgestone) to make the most dominant force in Formula 1 probably ever.

There is still though the nagging doubt for both - Is snooker a big enough sport, and how much is the driver, how much the car? Both these doubts mean I have to look at the other two candidates for today's vote.

And now the problems really begin:
Pele, the greatest footballer ever and the player that transcended the sport like no other just at the time when TV coverage was raising the profile of sportsmen everywhere (it's interesting how many of the GOAT candidates come from the late 60s and early 70s)
v
Sugar Ray Robinson, the greatest boxer ever, from an era when boxing was a huge sport and where the best fought the best for the one world title (rather than today's alphabet soup of titles). Fantastic testimonial above, and what a punch that one was...

For today though, my vote goes to Pele, simply because to transcend THE global sport in the manner he did and still does 40 years after retiring, is staggering.

29 each at the moment, I voted for SRR, but it was soooo close.

"TV coverage was raising the profile of sportsmen everywhere (it's interesting how many of the GOAT candidates come from the late 60s and early 70s)"


Very good point..

the first truely global sportsmen are fondly remembered from exposure.. Borg, pele, them american football players, nicklaus, edwards,ali, etc

However I am sure this also had a knock on affect, money was brought in to sports in bucket loads and the true profesionals were born.. When money comes in to play, pressure on performance levels is also magnified.. But the later pros may not be as fondly remembered..

Myst

Add Merckx to your list of late 60s - early 70s superstars. Actually, it was probably less of an influence in the US, where TV sports started earlier and several of the baseball legends are players of the late 50s and early 60s (although of course Babe Ruth pre-dates all of those), but there does seem to be a big cluster of European or global stars that came from the 60s.

Good point regarding true professionalism, although in some sports this was occurring anyway before TV got involved (English football's abolishing the maximum wage in the early 60s for example). Increased coverage though did bring in commercial sponsors and so 'big money' into many sports during that period though.

True that some later (or modern) pro's may not be so fondly remembered, perhaps because when winning becomes overwhelmingly important, one of the first things to go from most sports is honesty, whether by cheating, gamesmanship or the use of performance-enhancing substances.

Pele and Sugar Ray Robinson in the same group is most unfortunate as both are clearly amongst the greatest of all time. Where is Gavin Hastings when you need him? Pele is probably the best ever footballer but what swings it for me is that Robinson is without question the best boxer. All experts agree Robinson was the best including Ali and Sugar Ray Leonard so my vote goes to Sugar Ray Robinson.