v2 G.O.A.T Round 1 Group 7

First topic message reminder :

Monday’s group was a two horse race from the very start of the day with voting split between Basketball legend Michael Jordan and 18 time major title winner Jack Nicklaus. Jordan eventually progressed through in 1st place with 47% of the vote to Nicklaus's 28% who makes in to round 2 as group 6 runner up.

Today’s group sees Motor Racing, Football, Snooker and Boxing compete for your votes.

We have the three participants championed today with articles written by forum members, so please feel free to submit your own argument below for the one not championed.

Please vote for the competitor you believe has achieved the most in sport and should progress into the next round.

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Pele- Football- Championed by paperbag_puncher

Only when I sat down to write this article did the sheer scale of what I was attempting to do hit me. This article should really write itself, yet there are no words that can accurately describe the greatness of 'The King of Football' There are few human beings throughout history in any walk of life who have reached the iconic status of Pele.
“My name is Ronald Reagan, I’m the President of the United States of America. But you don’t need to introduce yourself, because everyone knows who Pele is.”
Ronald Reagan

Like most young boys I grew up hearing stories of this mythical man from Brazil who could create magic with his feet. I’d always been told of his greatness and happily accepted it but I was doing the man a great disservice by simply accepting it. Only as I got older and researched further did I realise how great he actually was. I am genuinely grateful that I have agreed to write this piece as it has given me the opportunity to revisit and explore the career of arguably the greatest sports person to have graced this earth.

There is no doubt in my mind that Pele was the most complete player of those who are generally mentioned in the greatest ever debates. Blessed with an unbelievable combination of pace, power, balance and close control he beat defenders at will making everything look effortless. Capable of the unpredictable and the sublime he was very much ahead of his time. Two footed and lethal in the air he was the ultimate goal scorer. The famous stat of 1281 goals in 1363 games is testament to this.

Pele said in 2006: "For 20 years they have asked me the same question, who is the greatest? Pele or Maradona? I reply that all you have to do is look at the facts - how many goals did he score with his right foot or with his head?"

Pele made his debut for Santos at the tender age of 15 scoring on his debut in 1956. By the time the 1957 season came around he was a first team regular and finished as the league’s top scorer. Just 10 months later he was called up to the Brazilian national team scoring in a 2-1 defeat to Argentina making him the youngest ever international scorer at 16 years and 9 months. He would go on to become and still is Brazil’s top goal scorer with a remarkable 77 goals in 92 games.

1958 was Pele’s breakout year and he announced himself to the world in style. He won his first major title the Campeonato Paulista with Santos scoring a record 58 goals along the way (a record that still stands) He was selected for the 1958 World Cup at the insistence of of his team mates despite being injured, which shows the regard the 17 year old was already held in. He played a pivotal role scoring the winner against Wales in the quarters, a hat-trick against France and another brace Vs Sweden in the final on his way to becoming the youngest ever World Cup Winner.

Brazil repeated the trick in 1962 but did it without Pele who injured himself in the second game having looked ominously bright in the opening game. The 1966 was even worse for him. Pele was ruthlessly and cynically targeted by opposing defences meaning he missed the loss to Hungary and was never at his best for the two games he did play. Without their talisman the defending champions were eliminated in the first round.
He got his redemption in 1970 inspiring perhaps the greatest team of all time to a third world cup success. Pele at the peak of his powers won the player of the tournament and provided us with two of his most iconic moments. Had his lob from the half way line against the Czechs or his audacious dummy to round the Uruguayan goalie resulted in goals they surely would have been 2 of the greatest in World Cup history.

At one stage it was universally accepted that Pele was the greatest footballer of all time. In recent years it has almost become fashionable to dismiss his claim and achievements in favour of two little Argies. There are two sticks that are usually used to beat him which are contradictory for me. True he never tested himself in Europe. Having been named a ‘national treasure’ by the Brazilian Government and not being allowed to be ‘exported’ he spent his best years in his native land. However, we do have some clues as to how he would have fared had he moved to a big European club. His goals record and performances at international level leave me unequivocally convinced that he would have burned it up in any league. Also Santos (mainly to be able to afford his wages) regularly toured and faced the biggest clubs in Europe where Pele showed he was still on another level. The other criticism is that he was part of the greatest international team ever and had world class team mates around him which somehow should dilute his success. Many of these same team mates also predominantly played in Brazil yet this isn’t held against the likes of Garrincha, Rivelino, Tostao or Jairzinho who regularly had to play second fiddle to Pele and his Santos team. Nor is it held against one Lionel Messi who is a part of the greatest team I have ever seen. Like Messi now, Pele was the undoubted jewel in a beautiful crown.

For me, to be worthy of being called the greatest sports person of all time you need to tick several boxes. You must be supremely talented and have a strong argument to be the GOAT in your own sport. In my opinion you also have to have transcended your own sport and have made a widespread universal and lasting impact. With all due respect to the big hitters who have been voted through so far, most people have no idea who Bradman, Merckx etc are. While this may not be a popularity contest Pele’s notoriety and worldwide acclaim stemmed solely from his prodigious talent and countless achievements. He wasn’t a character, he wasn’t a loveable rogue. He did all his talking with his feet and his reputation is a product of his talent alone.

I have used a lot of words despite originally stating words could not do the great man justice. Still for me Pele is a treat best enjoyed visually. Watching him nutmeg two defenders and rounding the keeper or seeing him effortlessly flicking the ball over a defender’s head and volleying home is still jaw dropping even today. I will leave you with some quotes from his peers and contemporaries who say it a lot better than I ever could.

"I told myself before the game, 'he's made of skin and bones just like everyone else'. But I was wrong.”
Tarcisio Burgnich, the Italy defender who marked Pele in the Mexico 1970 Final

“The difficulty, the extraordinary, is not to score 1,000 goals like Pele – it’s to score one goal like Pele.”
Carlos Drummond de Andrade, Brazilian poet

“The greatest player in history was Di Stefano. I refuse to classify Pele as a player. He was above that.”
Ferenc Puskas

“After the fifth goal, even I wanted to cheer for him.”
Sigge Parling of Sweden on a 5-2 defeat by Brazil in the 1958 FIFA World Cup Final

“I arrived hoping to stop a great man, but I went away convinced I had been undone by someone who was not born on the same planet as the rest of us.”
Costa Pereira on Benfica’s 5-2 loss to Santos in the 1962 Intercontinental Cup in Lisbon

"Pele was the greatest – he was simply flawless. And off the pitch he is always smiling and upbeat. You never see him bad-tempered. He loves being Pele.” Tostao

“When I saw Pele play, it made me feel I should hang up my boots.”
Just Fontaine

“Pele was one of the few who contradicted my theory: instead of 15 minutes of fame, he will have 15 centuries.”
Andy Warhol

“Pele was the only footballer who surpassed the boundaries of logic.”
Johan Cruyff

“His great secret was improvisation. Those things he did were in one moment. He had an extraordinary perception of the game.”
Carlos Alberto Torres

“I sometimes feel as though football was invented for this magical player.”
Sir Bobby Charlton

"Pele played football for 22 years, and in that time he did more to promote world friendship and fraternity than any other ambassador anywhere.”
J.B. Pinheiro, the Brazilian ambassador to the United Nations

Malcolm Allison: “How do you spell Pele?”
Pat Crerand: “Easy: G-O-D.”
British television commentators during Mexico 1970

Pelé is the greatest player of all time. He reigned supreme for 20 years. All the others – Diego Maradona, Johan Cruyff, Michel Platini – rank beneath him. There's no one to compare with Pelé.
—West Germany's 1974 FIFA World Cup-winning captain Franz Beckenbauer

The best player ever? Pelé. Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo are both great players with specific qualities, but Pelé was better.
—Real Madrid legend Alfredo Di Stéfano

Stephen Hendry- Snooker- Championed by The Special Juan

The Early Years

“I wanted to be the best and, for a short while, I was.”

This quote, from an interview with Stephen Hendry shortly after he retired, sums up what type of person he was. Hendry was a winner; someone who put in the hours of practice required to compete and dominate at the very top of any sport and expected nothing less than victory at each tournament. Some may say Ronnie O’Sullivan is the most naturally talented snooker player of all time and whilst that may be true, Hendry is not far behind.

Hendry first picked up a cue when he was 12 and merely 4 years later he was competing at the Crucible in the World Championships; an astounding achievement (he was the youngest player ever to play at the Crucible, a record which stood until very recently at the 2012 World Championships). The sign of what was to come in his career was evident almost immediately. Two weeks after he started playing he made a break of 52 and two years later he was winning tournaments.

His first of 36 ranking titles came in the 1987/88 Grand Prix where he defeated the former World Champion Dennis Taylor in the final. He also defeated the then greatest player in the world Steve Davis in the last sixteen.

The Peak Years

As the years progressed, the titles racked up for Hendry. His third ranking title was the UK Championship, snooker’s second most prestigious prize, in 1988 and he did not have to wait long until he landed the first of seven World Championships (a record in the Crucible era).

In 1990 Stephen Hendry faced Jimmy White, in the first of four finals between the two players (they subsequently met in three consecutive finals from 1992-1994), in the World Championship final. Although the tournament perhaps is most remembered for Alex Higgins punching an official in the stomach and then threatening to have Dennis Taylor shot, Hendry lifted the trophy after triumphing 18-12 in the final and became the youngest ever World Champion aged 21 years old, a record which still stands. By winning the World Championship, he also became the second player to win all three events in snooker’s Triple Crown (the World, UK and Masters titles) in the same season.

Continuing into the next season, Hendry defended both his UK and Masters titles, with the only shock in an otherwise successful season (he won 5 ranking titles in total + the Masters) being that he did not manage to defend his Crucible crown. This made him angry and for the next six seasons he would go on one of sport’s great winning runs by winning 29 consecutive Crucible matches. This included winning five consecutive titles and reaching six consecutive finals; his magnificent run coming to an end after losing to Ken Doherty in the 1997 final. This run also saw one of the Crucible’s greatest comebacks when, in the 1992 final, Hendry rallied from 14-8 down against Jimmy White to rattle off 10 consecutive frames and win the match 18-14, thus breaking the hearts of audience and Jimmy alike.

The 1995/96 season proved fruitful for Hendry when he again won the Triple Crown, becoming the first player to win the Triple Crown twice in their career. Unfortunately for Hendry, this proved to be his last great season due to a combination of factors, but there was still life in the old dog yet.

King Hendry

Hendry arrived at the Crucible in 1999 having lost his World Number 1 ranking which he had held for eight years and having suffered first round exits in both the Masters and UK Championship that season. There, he recorded probably his single greatest accomplishment, winning a seventh World Championship (a new record) and beating top quality players along the way; Paul Hunter, James Wattana, Matthew Stevens, Ronnie O’Sullivan and Mark J Williams in the final. This was to be Hendry’s last hoorah as he was unceremoniously dumped out in the first round the next year. He continued to pick up the odd ranking title and reach a few more major finals but after victory in the 2005 Malta Cup there were to be no more ranking titles for the great man and, after making a 147 break in his first round victory against Stuart Bingham and producing a demolition job against defending champion John Higgins in the 2012 World Championship, Hendry suffered a hammering from fellow Scot Stephen Maguire. Enough was enough and in the press conference afterwards, Hendry announced his immediate retirement from the sport. Some put his rather sudden downward spiral down to age, others to the emergence of Williams, Higgins and O’Sullivan but perhaps the one event that signalled the end was nigh was when the cue Hendry had used throughout his career was snapped when travelling.

Key to Hendry’s domination of the sport was his break building. Never one for extended safety battles, Hendry would use his deadly long potting to sink a red and get in prime position around the black ball. This, along with his incredible middle pocket potting, allowed him to rack up the most century breaks in snooker; 775 including 11 maximums. This video sums up Hendry’s career (and the first pot was no fluke either). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBIslTfHpnM

As mentioned, Hendry won a total of 36 ranking events which included a further 21 major finals. He also won another 32 non-ranking finals, making a combined total of 68 tournament wins during his career. Career highlights included:

Seven World Championships (a record) including five consecutive titles
Five UK Championships including three consecutive titles
Six Masters including five consecutive titles
An MBE in 1994
Being World Number 1 for nine years in total

Other records Hendry holds included:
Most centuries in one tournament
Most centuries compiled in one match
Highest prize money won
Oldest player ever to compile a 147 in competitive play

So after so many titles, century breaks and domination in his sport, he is certainly a contender for the greatest sportsman of all time; not just for what he achieved in his sport but for the person he was; hard-working, ruthless and successful.

Sugar Ray Robinson- Boxing- Championed by superflyweight

Let’s start at the beginning for the man almost universally recognised as pound for pound, the greatest boxer who ever lived. Walker Smith Junior was born 3rd May 1921 and following his family's move to New York, started boxing in a local Harlem gym. At 14 he wanted to enter a tournament and in order to circumvent the age restrictions (the minimum age was 16) he borrowed his older friend's Amateur Athletic Union card. His friend's name was Ray Robinson. The "Sugar" (a reference to his "sweet style") came later but from the moment he borrowed his friend's identity, a legend was born.

Robinson quickly went about putting together an outstanding amateur C.V. eventually racking up a record of 85 wins with no defeats. 69 of those wins were via knockout and 40 of those came in the first round. He was Golden Gloves featherweight champion in 1939 and then lightweight champion in 1940.

Turning pro in 1940 at the age of just 19, Robinson quickly went about making a name for himself, comprehensively beating current lightweight champion, Sammy Angott (who had refused to put his belt on the line) in just his 21st fight and then twice defeating (the second via a stoppage) the experienced master of the dark arts and former welterweight champion, Fritzie Zivic. A few fights later he won an unanimous decision against future middleweight great, Jake La Motta who outweighed Sugar that night by almost 13lbs (two whole weight classes in today's fight scene). Robinson was no protected fighter and fights against Angott, Zivic and La Motta as well as other tough, experienced opponents (including an ageing Henry Armstrong who is often regarded as the second greatest boxer who ever lived), represents a tough induction for a young fighter who was a relative novice. Despite this tough induction, it wasn't until his 40th fight that Robinson tasted defeat, losing a decision in his second fight against La Motta who outweighed him by 16lbs that night.

How did Robinson react to that defeat? He went unbeaten for the next 8 years winning 91 fights in the process defeating La Motta another 4 times along the way. Across their 6 fights, La Motta (who was a top drawer and very tough middleweight who would go on to win the middleweight title from the great Marcel Cerdan) outweighed Robinson by an average of 12lbs.

During that run of 91 victories, Robinson eventually won the welterweight title in 1946 at the age of 25 (boxing politics (in the form of the notorious Mob run, International Boxing Club) had kept him away from the title). Having amassed a record of 75 wins, 1 draw and 1 defeat, Robinson was allowed to compete for the vacant welterweight world title, triumphing with a unanimous decision over Tommy Bell. Finally, the man everyone knew was the best welterweight on the planet, had the belt that was rightfully his. Robinson remained undefeated as welterweight champion until he vacated the belt in 1950. During his reign he notched up wins against fellow welterweight great and future champion, Kid Gavilan before increasing problems making the 147lbs weight limit had Sugar setting his sights on the middleweight division.

Robinson won the middleweight title from La Motta in the infamous Valentine's Day Massacre which features prominently in the film Raging Bull. La Motta was stopped in brutal fashion in the 13th (the only legitimate stoppage of the legendary granite chinned, La Motta in 95 fights) and Robinson was champion at a second weight. Robinson subsequently went on a valedictory tour of Europe (fighting in various European cities against European opponents) which by all accounts was little more than one long party. Robinson turned up in the UK slightly worse for wear and somewhat undercooked and lost his title to Britain's own Randy Turpin having been outpointed over 15 rounds. Robinson immediately won the title back from Turpin, stopping him in the 10th round when behind on the cards. Robinson then defended the title a further twice against future champion, Bobo Olsen and former champion Rocky Graziano.

Having successfully defended his middleweight title, Robinson immediately turned his attention to Joey Maxim’s light heavyweight title. Against a very fine light heavyweight in Maxim and operating in a division way above his welterweight peak, Robinson was well ahead on all of the cards when he failed to emerge for the 14th round due to heat exhaustion. The fight had been held outdoors at Yankee Stadium in New York in sweltering heat and humidity and in the end it proved too much for Sugar. Following that defeat, Robinson immediately announced his first retirement from the sport.

Robinson stayed retired for 2 and a ½ years before returning at middleweight to take the title back from Bobo Olsen (via a 2nd round knockout) at the age of 34. His form on his return was patchy – he would lose the title three times (regaining it twice) but it was in this run of fights that contained Robinson’s greatest and perhaps most famous moment in the ring. At the age of 35 and up against the formidable champion Gene Fullmer (a man who had already beaten Robinson convincingly in their previous fight), Robinson was just about holding his own and then in the 5th round unleashed what many consider to be the greatest knockout punch of all time. Robinson hit Fullmer with a lightning quick left hook to the jaw which sent Gene plummeting to the floor. The fight was over in an instant and Robinson was middleweight champion for the fourth time. How good was the punch? Judge for yourself in the video below and consider that Fullmer had never been off his feet in any fight until that point and was considered iron jawed. Here’s what Fullmer had to say about it – “I still don’t know anything about the punch except I watched it on movies a number of times. The first thing I knew, I was standing up. I asked my manager, ‘What happened?’ and he said, ‘They counted ten.’”

Robinson would lose and win back the title once more and then would fail in a couple of more title challenges. However, he was long past his best by this point and pushing 40. Unfortunately Robinson (driven by a need to keep earning money) would fight on for many more years and would tarnish his record by losing to men who would not have been fit to get in the ring with him at his peak. This should not detract from how good he was. If we consider him only at his peak (generally recognised as being everything up to , but not including the Joey Maxim fight), he amassed a record of 128 wins, 1 draw and 2 defeats. Just incredible numbers made more incredible by the names on his record. Robinson defeated 10 Hall of Famer’s in his career; Jake Lamotta, Sammy Angott, Fritzie Zivic, Henry Armstrong, Kid Gavilan, Rocky Graziano, Randy Turpin, Gene Fullmer and Carmen Basilio.

The following description of Robinson is by Monte Cox and is taken from the excellent website “Cox’s Corner” and it describes Robinson better than I ever could:

“What other fighter could beat you more ways than could Sugar Ray Robinson? Ray could out box boxers and out punch punchers. He could do it inside or outside, going forward or backward. Ray could do it with his powerful left hook as he did against Gene Fullmer or with his perfect straight right as he did against Rocky Graziano. Joe Louis could throw triple left hooks with speed, power and accuracy that could destroy a man. Robinson could throw triple left hooks and triple right hooks that could do the same. Who else could do that and maintain frightening power?... Ray Robinson was the archetype of a complete fighter. If one combines his polished, grand boxing style with his powerful punching and cast iron chin with a will to win unsurpassed in the annals of boxing one has a perfect fighter.

“To sum it up, Robinson was the consummate professional fighter who possessed every physical asset; speed, agility, mobility, and tremendous punching power. He rates among a select few of the all time greats who could defeat fighters using their own best assets against them. Robinson, a true sharpshooter, easily rates among the best pound for pound punchers in history. Robinson is possibly the greatest combination puncher of all time. His quality of opposition is among the top five. Ray’s peak won-loss record is among the top three. Ray’s overall ring record and accomplishments also rate among the top three. Robinson is among the top five of all time in the category of longevity. Ray had all the intangibles, great experience, killer instinct, a tremendous chin and heart.”

Let’s finish by looking at what his fellow greats had to say about him:

“Someone once said there was a comparison between Sugar Ray Leonard and Sugar Ray Robinson. Believe me, there's no comparison. Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest."
Sugar Ray Leonard

“The king, the master, my idol.”
“That man was beautiful. Timing, speed, reflexes, rhythm, his body, everything was beautiful. And to me, still, I would say pound for pound...I'd say I'm the greatest heavyweight of all time, but pound for pound, I still say Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest of all time.”
Muhammad Ali

Quite simply, Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest boxer who ever lived and operated the peak of one of the toughest sports for a period of more than 20 years. He is regarded as far and away the greatest welterweight who ever lived (ahead of men like Armstrong, Sugar Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns and Jose Naploles) and most observers have him in their top 5 middleweights. He had great talent, he faced and beat the best and he reigned at the top for an incredible period of time. In short, he was the complete sportsman!

Vote Sugar Ray!!!!!!!!!

Great articles, I must say, but is this not a case of the winner will be whoever is the most popular on the forum, I.e. boxing has a fairly large following so will naturally get more votes...

I went for Schumacher, fantastic driver and his battles with a certain Fin were out if this world.

If that was the case LJ, Gavin Hastings might have won this thing!

Adam D wrote:If that was the case LJ, Gavin Hastings might have won this thing!

Can't say I know who he is, in guessing that is shameful!

Nice to know we are an impartial lot.

Jack, think Adam is saying the rugby board is the most popular and Hastings was a contentious rugby selection in one of the earlier rounds, which is something of an underststatement. There are people in his own family who haven't heard of him.

Thought Monday's was the group of death and then this lot crop up. I'm generally underwhelmed when I see clips of pele, but have to just assume they don't do him justice, as all his contempories consider him peerless. The biggest name in the world's biggest sport. Robinson tops most boxing fans' pound for pound goat lists but I think we know that another fighter will fair better in this. Sorry sugar but the head says pele.

Where is the board loyalty milky, of all the boxing lot I expected better from you.

I'll be very disappointed if Ali ends up doing better than Robinson in this but for the record I didn't vote for Louis despite being an avid boxing fan.

.... i Couldn't vote for the man that ducked burley

Likewise with Greb for me Ghosty, love the guy but he was up against Bradman, disrespectful to those that have put a lot of graft putting this together just to vote for the people who do the sport you like. You can genuinely justify voting for Robinson in this one, I could not make a case for having Greb over Bradman

milkyboy wrote:.... i Couldn't vote for the man that ducked burley

an eminently sensible position to take Milky, all is forgiven.

I did in fact vote for Greb over Bradman, despite his average I can't make a case for him being above the more recent batsmen who have had some fearsome attacks to contend with.

Sugar Ray Robinson was a better boxer than Ali but Ali was by far a greater man and hands down the greatest sportsman of all time. I would not vote for Robinson ahead of Ali. No chance.

Neither the time or the place for it but have to say the ongoing and continuing beatification of Ali is beginning to make me puke.

He's no Joe Louis when it comes to being a gentleman but will leave my criticism for when I do inevitably vote for him but a great man he was not.

Words , you never thought you'd say:
'A threesome with your sister? No thanks, beautiful Scandinavian goddess, I fancy a cup of cocoa and an early night'
'I agree with Gordy'

Never say never eh, I'm off now for my cocoa

Funnily enough program on Pele now on sky sports one.

Have to agree that it's not really in the spirit of things just to back people from a particualr sport. I went for Robinson yesterday ahead of Pele but it was onyl an easy decision because I was confident Pele would go through. I didn't vote for either Louis or Greb.

Diggers wrote:Funnily enough program on Pele now on sky sports one.

Schoolboy error from pele's pr team... They needed that programme out a day earlier to boost votes for this prestigious award. No doubt the schedular will get sacked and they'll get the re-run out ahead of the next round