6N reflected in the euro cup

close to 6N time and we have the 1/4 final teams drawn up
Harlequins v Munster
Clermont Auvergne v Montpellier
Toulon v Leicester
Saracens v Ulster

3 English
3 French
2 Irish

My question here is do we think that the 6N table will be reflected in the teams that have got through?

It would suggest
England/France champs
Ireland Runners up
Wales
Scotland
Italy

Running off the back of the Autumn internationals I would suggest that would not be far wrong, with France winning the 6N. Wales had an injury crisis and England have more false dawns at the moment then anybody.
Other considerations into answering this question would include the number of foreign players in club sides. Toulon for instance. I can only really speak of the English clubs but in all fairness to the sides that have qualified whilst there is certainly a large number of overseas players, the bulk of the england squad does come from the 3 tams who have qualified.

so...

will the 1/4 draw reflect the 6N final table?

Apparently the English and French teams are at a disadvantage so need to reduce the amount of celtic teams that get to play in the HC

TJ, whilst I agree the group stage does damage some of the French and English clubs arguments about the contest please can we stay on topic?

cheers dude!

I think we won another Grand Slam last year and were shoite in the HC - No correlation whatsoever there I'm afraid

TJ wrote:Apparently the English and French teams are at a disadvantage so need to reduce the amount of celtic teams that get to play in the HC

Its not that the English and French teams believe themselves to be at a disadvantage, its got more to do with the automatic qualification that some Celtic league teams enjoy. This is a discussion thats been done to death, and there's no easy or probably even workable solution.

RubyGuby wrote:I think we won another Grand Slam last year and were shoite in the HC - No correlation whatsoever there I'm afraid

To be fair, Welsh international form since the 6 Nations has mirrored the Heineken Cup form showed by the regions. Whether that follows into this year's 6Ns is another matter.

Not sure it will go that way because of the EuroCup though.

Wales' regional teams have underperformed over the past couple of years and yet it didn't stop their national team.

Same often happens in the super XV as well.

Although this year might work that way it could be seen more of a coincidence than by design.

TJ wrote:Apparently the English and French teams are at a disadvantage so need to reduce the amount of celtic teams that get to play in the HC

Agreed.

GunsGerms wrote:

TJ wrote:Apparently the English and French teams are at a disadvantage so need to reduce the amount of celtic teams that get to play in the HC

Agreed.

Yeah, let's derail the thread.

Yes overall I think it will be reflected but it helps that England,France and Ireland have been doing better than Wales,Scotland and Italy recently internationally too.

It should help England though that the vast bulk of the English team will come from Sarries,Quins and Tigers. Certainly helps player confidence to perform in winning teams.

Sarcasm too subtle for you guys? Sorry for the derail tho.

TJ wrote:Sarcasm too subtle for you guys? Sorry for the derail tho.

TJ wrote:Sarcasm too subtle for you guys? Sorry for the derail tho.

No I understood that you were being sacristic. I agree that the 1/4 final lineup puts a dent in the APLs proposals. Not that they were ever going to have much sucess with their proposals anyway.

I knew this topic would come up soon but lets be honest our Regions have been pretty dire in Europe most seasons really yet we have still managed to win 3 slams.

What does worry me more and has nothing to do with the HC in Howley being in charge.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I knew this topic would come up soon but lets be honest our Regions have been pretty dire in Europe most seasons really yet we have still managed to win 3 slams.

What does worry me more and has nothing to do with the HC in Howley being in charge.

True. Howley doesn't seem to have done a good job.

More worryingly he's in the Lion's coaching team!

It does seem that alot of welsh internationals are moving to france for their club rugby so the improvement in the french clubs might show in fact a strength in welsh rugby?

It seems that alot of the english players that go to france are in the later stages of their careers so it might be less impactive on the national side

Not sure its so easy to say that the 6 Nations will reflect the HEC.

It rarely does. Wales have three 6 Nations titles in last decade. They have no Heineken Cups in the that time.

How many French guys are in the Toulon or Clermont squads?

Ruan Pienaar and Doug Howlett and Johann Muller are not eligable for Ireland in the 6 Nations.

They are very different competitions.

Baggy,

None of the Welsh players that have gone to France could really be considered first choice (Phiilips aside) but thats out of neccesity as he is best of current bad bunch selected.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Baggy,

None of the Welsh players that have gone to France could really be considered first choice (Phiilips aside) but thats out of neccesity as he is best of current bad bunch selected.

I agree, Charteris has been very good but is injured and so has Hook, but Biggar is better at the moment. Won't be upset if Hook is picked.

Byrne was a good call up. Pre injury he was in great form for Clermont.

Maes,

Hook as never convinced me jack of all master of none so to speak. I have always said that Charteris and Evans would be my 2nd row combo but the management don't think that and like said Luke is out for entire tournament.

Think most were puzzled by Byrnes exclusion but again don't think he would be classed as first choice at the moment.

RubyGuby wrote:I think we won another Grand Slam last year and were shoite in the HC - No correlation whatsoever there I'm afraid

Thank god, otherwise the Italians would be planning an upset!

If you look at the Blues side that was put out against Sale too, then a side with 6 or 7 current Wales internationals plus a couple of other "contenders" for this 6N only beat the bottom of the Aviva by a couple of scores and that worries me! Ospreys and Treviso...same worry to be fair.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Maes,

Hook as never convinced me jack of all master of none so to speak. I have always said that Charteris and Evans would be my 2nd row combo but the management don't think that and like said Luke is out for entire tournament.

Think most were puzzled by Byrnes exclusion but again don't think he would be classed as first choice at the moment.

I've been watching the top 14 all season and he looked good all season so far.

Charteris was great until injury Byrne has been great.

I think it could be the most open 6Ns in a long time, maybe France are the nearest to the complete article but as they are "The French"you never know what can happen between now and the 6Ns; of the rest, Ireland are in transition, Scotland may surprise with a new coaching team - or could be having another false dawn, Wales can't play as badly as they did in the AI's but with no Gatland and injuries aplenty, Italy might spring a surprise again this time and England are so hot and cold they could either Grand Slam the thing or come nowhere...

France have to play in Twickenham. Although I have been there to witness a French victory (some while ago) we English must fancy our chances for this one. I do not think England are any longer hot/ cold based the last few meetings with SH oppos. Hot and getting hotter. Will finish 'somewhere' i.e. top the 6n, maybe the slam.

This point is interesting, last Jan I was asked by a current pro if I thought Ireland would sweep all before them inc Wales first up, the provinces were destroying people for fun, Leinster were walking games and the national players were looking top notch!

My reply was simple, if Ireland go into the first game beleiving that theyre in trouble, they never, and they were the better side but the wind was knocked clean out of them with that 1/2p penalty. IMHO had Ireland won that game they wouldve won the championship, and I think the exact same applies this year.

Ireland need a good performance, to win and win well, against a team struggling for results, lost 5 key players inc all their lock options, and who's clubs are being beaten like they did something wrong.

If Ireland turn up and play the way their clubs can Wales will be hammered and the green truck will well and truly be on it's way to a championship, but lets hope I'm wrong!!!

TJ wrote:Apparently the English and French teams are at a disadvantage so need to reduce the amount of celtic teams that get to play in the HC

No, they just don't want the more rubbish PRO12 sides cluttering up the pools, denigrating what should be Europe's elite competition and making the group stages uneven. They recognise that those sides are better suited to the level of the Amlin group stages with the lower tier French & English sides.

It has been said before on these threads that Wales only win a Grand Slam straight after a rugby world cup. When other teams are rebuilding, players leaving the squad(Retiring) from the international game. Whether this is true or not i would not like to say.

But i cannot remember a Welsh team with so many injured players going in to 6ns. How much will this effect Wales is the big question.

England has far as i can remember have never gone in to the 6ns on the back of beating the All Blacks in the Ais.
Will this win against the All Blacks be a spring board for England in this years 6ns? Or will it be seen as a blip if they dont at least win the 6ns?

The pressure is on England more than other team in this years 6ns, because of that win against the All Blacks.

majesticimperialman wrote:It has been said before on these threads that Wales only win a Grand Slam straight after a rugby world cup. When other teams are rebuilding, players leaving the squad(Retiring) from the international game. Whether this is true or not i would not like to say.

But i cannot remember a Welsh team with so many injured players going in to 6ns. How much will this effect Wales is the big question.

England has far as i can remember have never gone in to the 6ns on the back of beating the All Blacks in the Ais.
Will this win against the All Blacks be a spring board for England in this years 6ns? Or will it be seen as a blip if they

Hi Madge.

Clearly the Welsh Grand Slam thing isn't true.

Secondly, check the results from November 2002. You know when people take the mick saying you didn't know of England pre 2003? Just doing you a favour, me old mucker.

Risca Rev wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:It has been said before on these threads that Wales only win a Grand Slam straight after a rugby world cup. When other teams are rebuilding, players leaving the squad(Retiring) from the international game. Whether this is true or not i would not like to say.

But i cannot remember a Welsh team with so many injured players going in to 6ns. How much will this effect Wales is the big question.

England has far as i can remember have never gone in to the 6ns on the back of beating the All Blacks in the Ais.
Will this win against the All Blacks be a spring board for England in this years 6ns? Or will it be seen as a blip if they

Hi Madge.

Clearly the Welsh Grand Slam thing isn't true.

Secondly, check the results from November 2002. You know when people take the mick saying you didn't know of England pre 2003? Just doing you a favour, me old mucker.

Cheers for that.

I think England have gone into a 5/6 nations on the back of an victory over NZ 4 times. Pretty sure the winners of the tournaments were wales, Scotland, Wales and England respectively.

blackcanelion wrote:I think England have gone into a 5/6 nations on the back of an victory over NZ 4 times. Pretty sure the winners of the tournaments were wales, Scotland, Wales and England respectively.

Ah good, a bit of a straw to clutch at. I was worried that the last time England did beat NZ, they Grand Slammed in the next tournament.

I don't think it will particularly because look at the last few seasons Ireland haven't been great yet provinces been awesome. Wales regions haven't been good but national team up until Autumn have been good. There's a lot of things that are different, level of opposition is stepped up for everyone, there's no 'weak' groups or anything as now everyone has to play each other. Home advantage can make a big difference especially when playing the French. National teams don't play the way the club sides do so players don't feel as comfortable and don't play as well (see Ireland for illustration) a lot can also be about how quickly players bond etc and also you can have foreign players in vital positions that you don't have on the International stage so no I don't think it is a reflection. Also lets not forget these are one off games and anyone can beat anyone in one off games a bad match cannot be ironed out the way it can in Heineken or leagues.

TJ wrote:Apparently the English and French teams are at a disadvantage so need to reduce the amount of celtic teams that get to play in the HC

Makes a change to the celts saying the English and French were trying to change the HC as those teams couldn't compete..... Of course now we have 3 teams in the quarters the story has changed....

majesticimperialman wrote:It has been said before on these threads that Wales only win a Grand Slam straight after a rugby world cup. When other teams are rebuilding, players leaving the squad(Retiring) from the international game. Whether this is true or not i would not like to say.

But i cannot remember a Welsh team with so many injured players going in to 6ns. How much will this effect Wales is the big question.

It is not the amount of injuries, we had eight missing last year at the start of the six nations, it is the fact that they are all of the same position.

Wales won eight Grandslams before the RWc was even invented.

Risca Rev wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:It has been said before on these threads that Wales only win a Grand Slam straight after a rugby world cup. When other teams are rebuilding, players leaving the squad(Retiring) from the international game. Whether this is true or not i would not like to say.

But i cannot remember a Welsh team with so many injured players going in to 6ns. How much will this effect Wales is the big question.

England has far as i can remember have never gone in to the 6ns on the back of beating the All Blacks in the Ais.
Will this win against the All Blacks be a spring board for England in this years 6ns? Or will it be seen as a blip if they

Hi Madge.

Clearly the Welsh Grand Slam thing isn't true.

Secondly, check the results from November 2002. You know when people take the mick saying you didn't know of England pre 2003? Just doing you a favour, me old mucker.

To be fair to maj, we English fans get moaned at for living on past successes for mentioning anything around that era so we tend to wipe it from our minds.

maestegmafia wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:It has been said before on these threads that Wales only win a Grand Slam straight after a rugby world cup. When other teams are rebuilding, players leaving the squad(Retiring) from the international game. Whether this is true or not i would not like to say.

But i cannot remember a Welsh team with so many injured players going in to 6ns. How much will this effect Wales is the big question.

It is not the amount of injuries, we had eight missing last year at the start of the six nations, it is the fact that they are all of the same position.

Wales won eight Grandslams before the RWc was even invented.

mastemafia. I am well aware that Wales have Grand Slams before rugby world cups was invented.

I was talking about since the rugby world cup 2003.

Or put it another way since (Warren Gatland ) took charge of Wales.

majesticimperialman wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:It has been said before on these threads that Wales only win a Grand Slam straight after a rugby world cup. When other teams are rebuilding, players leaving the squad(Retiring) from the international game. Whether this is true or not i would not like to say.

But i cannot remember a Welsh team with so many injured players going in to 6ns. How much will this effect Wales is the big question.

It is not the amount of injuries, we had eight missing last year at the start of the six nations, it is the fact that they are all of the same position.

Wales won eight Grandslams before the RWc was even invented.

mastemafia. I am well aware that Wales have Grand Slams before rugby world cups was invented.

I was talking about since the rugby world cup 2003.

Or put it another way since (Warren Gatland ) took charge of Wales.

Why 2003?

Gatland took charge five years after 2003.

Jimpy wrote:

TJ wrote:Apparently the English and French teams are at a disadvantage so need to reduce the amount of celtic teams that get to play in the HC

Its not that the English and French teams believe themselves to be at a disadvantage, its got more to do with the automatic qualification that some Celtic league teams enjoy. This is a discussion thats been done to death, and there's no easy or probably even workable solution.

English teams would automatically qualify too if they formed regions. It is all about greed.

Scrumdown wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

TJ wrote:Apparently the English and French teams are at a disadvantage so need to reduce the amount of celtic teams that get to play in the HC

Its not that the English and French teams believe themselves to be at a disadvantage, its got more to do with the automatic qualification that some Celtic league teams enjoy. This is a discussion thats been done to death, and there's no easy or probably even workable solution.

English teams would automatically qualify too if they formed regions. It is all about greed.

That wouldn't solve the problem of the weak PRO12 sides reducing the quality of the competition and making the pools uneven, it would make it more distinct. Three tiers of European rugby are what is needed, fewer teams in each from all leagues, with sides more accurately pitched at their level.

Besides, England doesn't think European rugby is worth debasing its clubs and their supporters for. The clubs have been around since the codification of the game, are part of the bedrock of our rugby communities and must be put before something as new and relatively meaningless as a European wide competition. If the right deal can't be struck with the other participants, leaving them to it is a far better option than ruining our own club system.

The 6N has obviously nothing to do with how a country's teams perform in the HEC, as there is no correlation in results.

Scrumdown wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

TJ wrote:Apparently the English and French teams are at a disadvantage so need to reduce the amount of celtic teams that get to play in the HC

Its not that the English and French teams believe themselves to be at a disadvantage, its got more to do with the automatic qualification that some Celtic league teams enjoy. This is a discussion thats been done to death, and there's no easy or probably even workable solution.

English teams would automatically qualify too if they formed regions. It is all about greed.

Its probably more to do with not wanting or needing to lose club identity, heritage and support, much of it as old as the game itself, in order to get a leg up in European and International competition. Because, as we can all see, regionalisation hasn't worked.

No thanks, English clubs don't need a sympathy screw to get on.

Scrumdown wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

TJ wrote:Apparently the English and French teams are at a disadvantage so need to reduce the amount of celtic teams that get to play in the HC

Its not that the English and French teams believe themselves to be at a disadvantage, its got more to do with the automatic qualification that some Celtic league teams enjoy. This is a discussion thats been done to death, and there's no easy or probably even workable solution.

English teams would automatically qualify too if they formed regions. It is all about greed.

oh yeah, look at how wonderful the Welsh regions has worked. let's all follow there example...

Scrumdown wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

TJ wrote:Apparently the English and French teams are at a disadvantage so need to reduce the amount of celtic teams that get to play in the HC

Its not that the English and French teams believe themselves to be at a disadvantage, its got more to do with the automatic qualification that some Celtic league teams enjoy. This is a discussion thats been done to death, and there's no easy or probably even workable solution.

English teams would automatically qualify too if they formed regions. It is all about greed.

The word "greed" gets thrown around a lot in this sort of debate, but I am wondering if it means something different in Scotland, Ireland and Wales than it does in England.

The English professional clubs are largely owned by private individuals or companies who agreed with the members to buy out ownership of the clubs when the game went pro. In the intervening 20 years, these individuals have spent millions (literally) on keeping these clubs going. In the long term, of course they are looking to make money, but only 3 out of the current Premiership clubs make a profit with any regularity. Several others are close to breakeven at an operating level, but typically have big debts that they've acquired through developing their grounds and accumulated losses. Most of them have a view of how to get to profitability, but it's a very long term game. Mark Evans (former CEO of Quins) reckoned that you need a 15,000 seat ground and for that to be nearly full most of the time for a club to be self-sustaining. Given most clubs started with grounds and fanbases in the 3-5,000 range, it takes a lot of investment to get to that level.

[As an aside, you could argue that the RFU should have moved to regional rugby at the outset of professionalism but then you get into issues of a) it couldn't, then or now, afford to do something on that scale; b) as the Welsh and Scots have seen, the downside of regional rugby is that you get into serious issues about damaging your supporter base. In a market like Wales or Scotland that trade-off might just about have been acceptable - though it looks pretty shaky - but in England it's much shakier; c) ERC rugby is only part of the season. To be viable you need a league structure as well and the viable league size seems to be about 12-14 teams. So you end up with the same number you started with, unless you artificially combine with another country's league to make something like, erm, the Rabo]

English clubs get only a tiny amount of funding from the RFU, mainly in the form of payment for EQPs and EPS player release. Most of their funding comes from tickets, merchandise, television and sponsorship. It is similar for the Top 14 clubs, with the advantage for them that the majority of them don't have to pay for their grounds because there is municipal funding (but they have a higher salary cap).

One of the issues is that the English and French clubs have is that they effectively bring in most of the TV revenue to ERC (Sky - and Sky's advertisers - pay more to reach English subscribers, who would be much less interested in a competition with no English or French involvement), but 52% of that revenue goes to the 12 Rabo teams (4.3% per team), whereas the 26 English and French teams share 48% (1.8% per team).

The split looked fairer when it was originally agreed but the single Celtic league / regional model came in after the split was agreed, effectively manipulating both the qualification and financial arrangements to favour the Celtic nations (whether that was the original intent or not).

The PRL proposal is essentially saying "This model is no longer viable for us, and we are making losses because ERC are not maximising the value of the TV rights and not sharing them fairly. Since we got nowhere negotiating within the current framework, we've served notice (per the terms of the agreement) and would like to negotiate a new deal to replace the current one. We've also got a potential TV rights deal for our home games, which on its own is worth a lot more than the current one, and we are prepared to structure a deal that would give everyone more money, as long as the share per team is more balanced. We also think that all the sides entering the senior competition should have to qualify through their respective leagues, to avoid situations like this year where Leinster had to battle with Clermont and Tigers with Ospreys and Toulouse but Quins had an easy stroll against Zebre, Connacht and Biarritz; that said, we're also open to a situation that ensures at least one team from each nation is in the competition."

That doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Everyone gets more money, the competition gets more consistent. The difference to the English clubs from this proposal is likely to be, for most of them, the difference between making a profit and making a loss year-on-year. Again, in a professional game, that doesn't seem unreasonable.

However, it seems that the Rabo teams are unwilling even to negotiate on either the automatic qualification of their senior sides or the disproportionate share of the revenue that they get.

Who's greedy now?

prl's proposal is that:

6 teams automatically qualify from england
6 teams automatically qualify from france
0 teams automatically qualify from wales
0 teams automatically qualify from ireland
0 teams automatically qualify from scotland
0 teams automatically qualify from italy

What is fair about that?

Also,the majority of bt's money will end up in celtic hands anyway as no doubt the english teams will be using it to buy up the best irish, scottish and welsh talent (what is left).

Why have you guys all been dragged into the same old debate because of a wind up comment.

Just agree to disagree and get back to the thread!!