How do you turn around a losing team? (Edinburgh example)

First topic message reminder :

How do you turn around a team that has hit rock bottom? How does the coach of Edinburgh or Sale for example convert a team of losers who have no confidence to one that somehow grinds out wins? This is obviously more of a pressing concern for Sale who are odds on for relegation, whereas Edinburgh only have to contend with being known as the team that finished the season below the Zebras (although I don’t think even that will happen to be fair).

I’m going to talk from an Edinburgh point of view – because that is what I know – but am happy for the thread to be a range of specific discussion about teams like Edinburgh and Sale, but also more general points on how to turn around losing teams.

Let’s not sugar coat anything here – Edinburgh have so far had probably the worst ever season of a Scottish pro team since the game turned professional. Now someone might come on and say that there has been a worst season from a team 10 years ago or something like that, but it is not just the results, it’s the fact that an extra £1million has been pumped into this team this year.

So let’s look at the facts.

Rabbo form:

Won 4, lost 9 (30% win rate)

Points for - 272 (3rd best in league)

Points against - 318 (2nd worst behind the Zebras)

Tries for - 27 (joint 4th best)

Tries against - 34 (3rd worst)

Try bonus - 1

Losing bonus - 5 (joint highest with Zebras)



Heineken form:

Won - 0

Points - 0

Points for – 36 (lowest EVER in the history of the HK)

Points against – 178 (average of 30 per game)

Tries for – 3 (lowest EVER in the history of the HK)

Tries against – 18 (average of 3 per game)

Season

Season average win rate - 21% (1 in 5 games)

Average points for per game – 16

Average points against per game – 26

Average tries for per game – 1.6

Average tries against per game – 2.7


Now that makes soul destroying reading.

The less that is said about the Heineken the better. Now in Scottish rugby we’re used to teams doing badly in the HK, indeed not winning any games isn’t a rarity; it is that fact that we have barely been competitive in any games. To go from Semi-finalists to not even close to being competitive in one season – with essentially the same team – has got to be one of the biggest falls from graces ever.

Rabbo form is a win rate of 30%, including losses at home to Munster 2’s at the start of the season, Treviso and the Scarlets (in which we lost 3 tries in the opening 30 minutes). Our victories are against the Blues away, the mighty Zebras at home, the Ospreys at home and Connacht away. I didn’t realise we had 5 LBP – suggesting that we weren’t too far away in those game. Even still – they are fairly depressing stats.

What to do?

Now from an Edinburgh perspective the problem is fairly clear – our defence is abysmal. How our defence coach – Billy McGinty (who??) – hasn’t walked away in shame is beyond me. To have a season average of 26 points per game against and 2.7 tries is just unthinkable. That suggests that, on average, we’re having to score 3 tries and 27 points just to win games. I know these are fairly convoluted ways of thinking of the stats, but the point is valid – our defence is shocking.

So does that suggest all we need to do is shore up our defence? Simple?

I think it goes deeper than that. Our defence is shocking not just because the players can’t tackle (which they can’t), or because the defencive system is bad (which it is), or because the other team have played very well (which is quite often the case) – but psychological. The players have no confidence in themselves, they have no confidence in their game plan, and ultimately I think they have no confidence in their coach.

So to me the solution is fairly clear – sack the head coach and sack the defence coach, rip it up and start again. I would keep Back for another season – I genuinely think he is a decent coach and is worth more time – but the rest have to go.

Now obviously sacking the coaches won’t have an immediate affect on our defencive abilities – might even make it worse – but this season is a write off anyway. The coaches aren’t working, the players aren’t responding to them, the coaches have to go.

The players have to shoulder a large proportion of the blame too – it’s not the coaches fault they throw a squint lineout, knock the ball on or miss an easy tackle – and they really need to have a good long look at themselves in the mirror and decide what they want from their rugby careers, and whether they have been good enough this season.



Apologies for the massive amount of text, but there is nothing worse than your team being so appallingly bad and it is pretty frustrating for the fans.

So how do you turn teams around? Are Sale’s stats any better?

Cheers RDW, I clearly missed your article.

It was 18 months ago so I'll let you off!

On a side note was quite fun reading through my earlier posts. Some favourites while moaning about Edinburgh signings:

'Who is this Matt Scott guy anyway? Never heard of him and he isn't even listed on the Edinbrugh website! We're going to struggle in the centres'

'We desperately need a new 2nd row - all we've signed is some English guy who failed in the English premiership' - that was when talking about Sean Cox!

Shows you can't always be right!

I also started a debate on whether Laidlaw or Mossy should play at 10 for Scotland if Jackson got injured - that was in the early days of Laidlaw's switch to stand off

Very kind. Interesting chat, along with some of the subsequent comments.

I was looking above and someone mentioned EOS as a possible coach to replace Bradley. To be honest, i think that would be an excellent decision. EOS has a point to prove and needs a job to do it, so he can't and won't phone it in and more importantly, while he is sh!te at man management (and here is where another coach or manager deals more day to day (hour to hour if needs be) with the players and EOS sorts the game plan and strategies etc. He is an excellent coach is respect of getting the best out of players when he is working with a confident group. Even the likes of Geordeon Murphy who didn't exactly have a stellar relationship with EOS, wouldnt doubt his coaching skills. Tactics occasionally but then what flair players don't?!

Now, as mentioned repeatedly above, a defesive coach and system that is much much more effective needs to be implemented and the players have to take responsibility for missed tackles. So whether they aren't fdoing enough in training or are too wedded to a system and do not know what to do after the 2nd or third reset/shift in point of attack, I simply havent seen enough of their games to comment of exact failures.

I was, incidently, shocked to find out that they are the 3rd highest scoring team and joint 4th for tries in the league. Watching them going 180+ minutes without scoring a point was difficult to watch and undid so much of their good work last season. So it isn't all bad i asure you. Scoring freely enough is a harder thing to fix than getting a more effective defence in place, imho. It will not happen over night though. Also, I'd like to see their penalties conceeded and YC stats. I ask this as I have a slight suspiciion that Edinburgh are being on occasion too honest. Not suggesting large scale cynical play, but if they are below they average and conceeding that many points/tries, then they need to get a harder edge. Kill the ball cynically 15 metres from the line, not 5. The penalty is the same but there is a reduced risk oa a yellow and you buy time. Being smarter basically. Release when the ref says it twice (or ruck formed etc), not the first time, as most say it twice (which they shouldn't by the way) Oh, and get in EVERY single 9 & 10's face. Passivity kills any team and Munster were awful for large stretches of both their games with Edinburgh but were never really in doubt of losing either all the same. Murray and ROG had time they simply should not have had. Though, in fairness to Murray he is coming back to form and made time for himself.

Anyway, that my 2 cents. Whatever happens though, I'd wait til May to do the sacking.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Wait, we gave Atiga a 2 year deal?? There's other worrying ones in there too - Alex Black til 2014, Chris Leck til 2014, John Houston a 4 year deal??

So looks like the following will be out of contract this summer:

Sepp Visser
Mike Penn
Ben Cairns
James King
Roddy Grant (potentially)
Talei
Sean Cox
Ross Ford
Chunk
Titterell

That's quite a lot of players!

Out of all of them the ones I definitely want renewed would be Cairns, Grant, Talei and Cox

I wouldn't overly mind if King and Titerell re-signed

I think it is time to say bye bye to Ford, Chunk, Penn and Sep Visser, although granted that is a lot of experience taken away from our pack.

Leck signed for 2 yrs in 2011.
He might be off to join his father the coach at Hawick.

EoS is maybe a good shout, but I still haven't forgiven him for basically accusing Hines of attempted murder on RoG! Yes he backed down but never publicly apologised to Hines for such accusations.

Put it this way - if he did become coach I would give him my support, but he'd have to go a long way to convince me he isn't a bit of a scumbag!

What's his club coaching credentials anyway? International management is very different from being head coach of a club with day to day coaching.

...but ROG cudda doide!

RDW_Scotland wrote:EoS is maybe a good shout, but I still haven't forgiven him for basically accusing Hines of attempted murder on RoG! Yes he backed down but never publicly apologised to Hines for such accusations.

Lets face it all of us at some point have wanted to be the guy to give ROG a good rake at the bottom of a ruck. He is a total bawbag.

Bit of a left-field suggestion but how about Dean Ryan? I know he says he wants to keep the easy life as a Sky pundit but you never know - coaching Scotland might renew his enthusiasm for coaching!

I love it how we are discussing coaching options when Bradley hasn't even been sacked yet!

Cushy job at Sky flapping my lips or becoming the coach of arguably the worst team in Europe???

decisions decisions.....

Well think it's fair to say Edinburgh's terrible season has had an affect on the players being picked for Scotland, with high profile benchings of Ford and Denton, although in Denton's case that is maybe more to do with strong competition. Sounds like Horne was meant to start over Scott at 12 as well, but is injured.

I think the message is clear to the Edinburgh players though - if they don't perform for club, they won't get picked for country!

Hopefully they will remember that next season.

Hopefully it'll encourage the Edinburgh players to quickly identify the problem as well, whether it's Bradley, the players, the other coaches, team selection, pre-season, or a combination of all of the above.

Something needs to change in the summer. We need a complete overhaul of the coaches and strategy. Clearly we can't again sign 4/5 new players, but perhaps two or three well chosen signings this time around, plus letting go of some of the dead wood, would be the way forward.

I'd pair together Steve Meehan (failing which Craig Chalmers) and Peter Wright. I'd give them two years. I'd sign Tom Heathcote, Mitch Eadie and Grant Shiells. I'd ditch Penn, Talei (I don't think his contribution matches his salary) and Sepp Visser from the players listed above as out of contract, and invite Leck to go as well. Hopefully that would help balance the books.

My Edinburgh 23 for next season would be:

1.Yapp 2.Ford 3.Nel 4.Gilchrist 5.Cox 6.Basilia 7.Rennie 8.Denton 9.Laidlaw 10.Heathcote 11.Visser 12.Scott 13.NDL 14.Fife 15.Tonks

16.Cross 17.Lawrie 18.Sheills 19.VdW 20.McInally 21.Rees 22.Hunter 23.Brown

Squad players: Niven, Hislop, Titterall, Parker, Turnbull, Eadie, Grant, Black, Leonard, Atiga, King, Houston, Cairns, Jones and Farndale.

Reckon the Sarries guy in the A team could be persuaded to come up? Big, strong running 13 or winger would go down nicely I think, plus he's closer to Scotland selection up here

Maybe one for the season after, to replace Ben Atiga. With Cairns back and no doubt NDL coming back to fitness, plus having Houston and King in the squad, he wouldn't be a priority for me this year.

Will be keeping a firm eye on the Sevens and U20 games. It's pointless having Leck, Sepp Visser and Penn in the squad as mediocre NSQs, when we could have young Scots players getting exposure to pro rugby.

If there's a decent young hooker on the way up I'd be happy for Titterall to go as well. Lawrie and Walker are ready for more action in my view, particularly Lawrie.

Do you guys reckon Jones will find some form/ability again? He was decent - good last season and looked like he could have some promise. This year is clearly different. If this is a good as he's going to get then we may have to look to strengthen there, we have Fife and Brown who can play on the wing, but probably could do with a bit more depth.

I'm not ready to give up on him yet. He's got good pace and acceleration plus good footwork, and we saw him last season and on the Sevens circuit really shine, and we don't have many players in Scotland able to stand up their opposite man and go round.

Like all green and young wingers, his basics need work, and his confidence is shot to pieces this season. I'd be tempted to take Mark Robertson back from the Sevens circuit and send Lee Jones away to build his confidence, whether in the amateur set-up (like Fife did this season) or with the Sevens (which worked for Jones previously).

The other I'd like to see in an Edinburgh jersey next season is young Farndale, who broke his leg in the summer and has been out this season. I see serious potential there, and looks a bit more robust than the other options. Clearly Visser and Fife ought to be first choice (and I'm very keen to see the progress with the latter this season and next), and I'd like Farndale and possibly Jones or Robertson as the other options next season on the wing. As you say, Brown is an option, although I'd rather he focus on the fullback skillset, as back-up to Tonks.

I have high hopes that we'll see Lee Jones back to his best next season. He's one of the more elusive runners we have.

Any idea when Farndale is back? I didn't include him in the options as I didn't know when he was due back and figured he would need some time to get back to his best.

Let's hope the new coach (please) can help rebuild Jone's confidence as I agree last season he looked a good player.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Hopefully it'll encourage the Edinburgh players to quickly identify the problem as well, whether it's Bradley, the players, the other coaches, team selection, pre-season, or a combination of all of the above.

Something needs to change in the summer. We need a complete overhaul of the coaches and strategy. Clearly we can't again sign 4/5 new players, but perhaps two or three well chosen signings this time around, plus letting go of some of the dead wood, would be the way forward.

I'd pair together Steve Meehan (failing which Craig Chalmers) and Peter Wright. I'd give them two years. I'd sign Tom Heathcote, Mitch Eadie and Grant Shiells. I'd ditch Penn, Talei (I don't think his contribution matches his salary) and Sepp Visser from the players listed above as out of contract, and invite Leck to go as well. Hopefully that would help balance the books.

My Edinburgh 23 for next season would be:

1.Yapp 2.Ford 3.Nel 4.Gilchrist 5.Cox 6.Basilia 7.Rennie 8.Denton 9.Laidlaw 10.Heathcote 11.Visser 12.Scott 13.NDL 14.Fife 15.Tonks

16.Cross 17.Lawrie 18.Sheills 19.VdW 20.McInally 21.Rees 22.Hunter 23.Brown

Squad players: Niven, Hislop, Titterall, Parker, Turnbull, Eadie, Grant, Black, Leonard, Atiga, King, Houston, Cairns, Jones and Farndale.

1.Sheills/Hislop 2.Ford/Lawrie 3.Nel/Cross 4.Gilchrist/? 5.Cox/? 6.McInally/Eadie 7.Rennie/Grant 8.Netani/Dents 9.Laidlaw/Kennedy 10.?/? 11.Visser/Farndale 12.Scott/King 13.NDL/Taylor 14.Fife/Jones 15.Tonks/Brown

If we signed sheills then I wouldn't keep Yapp I'd let Sheills/Hislop battle it out, would only keep Ford or Titteral not both I would rather stick with Ford, still haven't seen enough from Parker/VdW and Turnbulls injury prone it seems, Basilia hasn't impressed me so if we signed Eadie (which wouldn't cost a lot seeing as he's on a development contract at Bristol bus fares I'm guessing) I'd release Basilia, Atiga (just go now!!!), wouldn't keep Rees or Leck being non scottish qualified is causing problems for the national team would let Laidlaw/Kennedy maybe another fight it out, Fife and Farndale should have got a full contract well before we signed Penn.

Cairns, give him plenty time to get back to fitness to important not to have in the squad
Houston, would probably put him on a sevens contract
Taylor, YES PLEASE!!! more competition on the wings and center but not a priority
Number 10 god knows, Leonard looks shell shocked whenever he takes to the field, Hunter has a decent boot but doesn't boss the game and I prefer Laidlaw at 9, Possibles Heathcote/Robbie Robinson/Lee Millar/Tommy Allan/Scott Wight/Ruaridh Jackson or bring back Godman

No idea on Farndale, I presume he'll come back towards the end of this season, and that the next pre-season will be really key for him.

Quite a powerful finisher from what I saw at the last JWC, and not afraid of the contact area. I think he could be really useful to Edinburgh next season provided the new coach has his head screwed on.

allyt2k

Re:scrum half - happy to let go of Leck, but we need established back-up for Laidlaw, and Rees hasn't played badly at all this season (in fact he's probably been the best 9 in the squad). Kennedy is all good and well, but he plays for Glasgow.

Similarly I think Yapp has been our best loosehead. Hislop is still learning and is only a back-up option at this stage. I'd be signing Shiells mainly to transition out Chunk.

Disagree completely on Basilia. In the last few Edinburgh games he's been the best backrow forward on the pitch - utterly committed. I think he'll make a fine 6, in the Lydiate mould, with Rennie and 7 and Denton at 8. I see that as our first choice back row next season, with McInally covering from the bench.

Aye, I figured beginning of next season before we saw him again, agreed in the JWC he looked pretty handy. Cheers.

Surely Kennedy has to come back to Edinburgh? There's no point having him there if they have 2 Scottish internationals and 1 Fijian (and fans favourite) ahead of him.

Edinburgh have one Scottish international and 2 NSQ players who, although decent squad players, aren't exactly anything to get majorly excited about.

Also, said it on here before but can't see Grant Sheil's coming. He's got another season left on his contract and can see him wanting to have a crack at the AP when Newcastle get promoted.

funnyExiledScot wrote:allyt2k

Re:scrum half - happy to let go of Leck, but we need established back-up for Laidlaw, and Rees hasn't played badly at all this season (in fact he's probably been the best 9 in the squad). Kennedy is all good and well, but he plays for Glasgow.

Similarly I think Yapp has been our best loosehead. Hislop is still learning and is only a back-up option at this stage. I'd be signing Shiells mainly to transition out Chunk.

Disagree completely on Basilia. In the last few Edinburgh games he's been the best backrow forward on the pitch - utterly committed. I think he'll make a fine 6, in the Lydiate mould, with Rennie and 7 and Denton at 8. I see that as our first choice back row next season, with McInally covering from the bench.

Do we not get Kennedy back after the season since he was on the Edinburgh EDP Players (2012/13) list and only loaned to glasgow to cover injuries?

If I was signing Shiells he'd be my first pick dont like Yapp's work rate around the field

we'll agree to disagree on Basilia

Not sure about whether we get Kennedy back or not.

Frankly I think Edinburgh and Glasgow need to get better at allocating resources. For example why have Cox, Parker and VdW at Edinburgh and Nick Campbell at Glasgow not getting a game? Why have Welsh, Reid and Grant at Glasgow, and sign Yapp for Edinburgh with Chunk retiring? Why have Cusiter, Pyrgos, Kennedy and McConnell all at Glasgow, all behind Matawalu in terms of ability, and have Rees and Leck at Edinburgh?

Why sign Francis at Edinburgh when you already have Hunter and Leonard?

Why did Maitland go to Glasgow when they already have DTH, Seymour, Sean Lamont and Rory Lamont in their squad? Meanwhile Edinburgh are stuck with Penn, Sepp Visser, Lee Jones and Dougie Fife as the alterntives to Tim Visser.

The signing policies and allocations have been a shambles.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

The signing policies and allocations have been a shambles.

With a Glasgow bias...

funnyExiledScot wrote:Not sure about whether we get Kennedy back or not.

Frankly I think Edinburgh and Glasgow need to get better at allocating resources. For example why have Cox, Parker and VdW at Edinburgh and Nick Campbell at Glasgow not getting a game? Why have Welsh, Reid and Grant at Glasgow, and sign Yapp for Edinburgh with Chunk retiring? Why have Cusiter, Pyrgos, Kennedy and McConnell all at Glasgow, all behind Matawalu in terms of ability, and have Rees and Leck at Edinburgh?

Why sign Francis at Edinburgh when you already have Hunter and Leonard?

Why did Maitland go to Glasgow when they already have DTH, Seymour, Sean Lamont and Rory Lamont in their squad? Meanwhile Edinburgh are stuck with Penn, Sepp Visser, Lee Jones and Dougie Fife as the alterntives to Tim Visser.

The signing policies and allocations have been a shambles.

There is the age-old argument though that the pro teams should be independent of each other and should be held accountable for their own signing policy.

I don’t necessarily subscribe to this view mind you, as I think with so few players available to Scotland the pro teams should be working together in some aspects to ensure that the SQ players we do have, are getting game time.

However, if we want to build support for the pro teams then they need to be seen as independent of each other and not just feeder clubs for the national team, which arguably they are.

As regards new signings, I have less issue with the head coaches of the pro teams being autonomous - however I have a hunch that the SRU meddle quite a bit here.

I'm more bothered about the Scots youngster. Developing these guys is crucial, and it's senseless having some crap NSQ player plodding along in one team when there's a better Scots youngster sitting on his hands at the other.