v2 G.O.A.T. Round 1 Group 13

Yesterday saw a close run battle in the 12th Group between Messi and Owen for first place with Messi shading it in the end.

Please feel free to submit your own argument below for the ones not championed.


Please vote for the competitor you believe has achieved the most in sport and should progress into the next round.

Please leave a comment as to why you voted.

Garfield Sobers – Championed by GuilfordBat

Before anyone exclaims ''Not another cricketer!'', let me begin with a few words from Harold Pinter, Nobel Prize winning playwright, dramatist and actor. Pinter said, ''I tend to think that cricket is the greatest thing that God ever created on earth - certainly greater than sex, although sex isn'too bad either.''

Now I don't set myself the near impossible task of convincing you of that but I do hope to show you that Garry Sobers was a great cricketing all rounder and sportsman who deserves your vote today. The cricket writer Lawrence Booth described him as ''a master of all trades and jack of none''. In my view, Sobers certainly merits at the least a place at the business end of this contest. Assuming he gets that far, one of his rivals will undoubtedly be Sir Donad Bradman. I make no claim either way today as to whom was the greatest cricketer - that hopefully will be a challenge to come that both will relish. Bradman himself referred to Sobers as ''the five in one cricketer''.

The Don's description referred to Sobers' prowess in batting, fielding and bowling in three distinct styles. This was further explained by the much respected writer, commentator and former Australian captain Richie Benaud: ''Sobers was a brilliant batsman, splendid fielder, particularly close to the wicket, and a bowler of extraordinary skill, whether bowling with the new ball, providing left-arm spin or over-the-wrist spin.'' Benaud added that Sobers was the greatest all-round cricketer the world has seen.''

Garry Sobers was born in Barbados in July 1936. There was perhaps a hint then that there was to be something unusual about him; at birth he had an extra finger on each hand, subsequently removed in early childhood. When Sobers was only five, his father died at sea in WWII when his ship was torpedoed by a U-boat. Despite this tragedy and little money, Sobers generally enjoyed his formative years and excelled in ball sports - football, basketball and especially cricket. At the age of just sixteen he was selected to play for Barbados against the touring India team as a spin bowler and took seven match wickets.

Just one year later Sobers made his Test debut at seventeen. It was the beginning of a Test career that was to last twenty years and bring him 8,032 runs, 235 wickets and 109 catches from 93 matches. With so much Test cricket played today, those stats do not reflect how far ahead of his peers Sobers was. To some extent, I will try and show that. However, it needs to be noted that personal averages were never of concern to Sobers. In the words of the late Tony Greig, ''In my experience, every single thing he did, he did in the interests of the game .... he never thought about averages in any aspect of his game.''

I do not have the time and you do not have the patience for me to list all Sobers' cricketing accomplishments, so just a few to give a flavour of his all round abilities:

* In 1958, he not only scored his maiden Test century against Pakistan in Kingston but went on to amass an undefeated 365 in an innings that lasted over ten hours. It broke the world record Test score of 364 set by England's Len Hutton in 1938. At 21 years and 216 days, he is the youngest player to break the individual scoring record in Tests and remains the youngest triple-centurion. When Sobers' highest individual Test score was finally broken thirty-six years later by Brian Lara, Sobers was at the ground in Antingua to witnesss it and was one of the first to congratulate him.

* Sobers scored another twenty-five centuries in his Test career. Three of these came in the Test series in England in 1966 where he enjoyed spectacular success and was dubbed ''King Cricket''. As the late Christopher Martin Jenkins confirmed, ''he dominated the '66 series''. In the five Tests Sobers scored 722 runs at an average in excess of 103. For me, his greatest batting display that summer was an uncharacteristic innings at Manchester where he reined in his natural attacking instincts to rescue his side from a perilous situation. It has been said on this thread that a true GOAT for all his artistry needs at times to ''guts it out''; this was when Sobers did just that. In their second innings, the West Indies were in desperate trouble at 95-5, leading by just 9 runs. With Sobers at the crease was his young and nervous cousin David Holford in only his second Test. After Holford had played and missed at his first two balls, Sobers went down the pitch and said words to him along the lines of, ''Relax, it's just a game. Now think of how we used to play back home ...''. From there, the tide started to turn. The partnership between Sobers and Holford remained unbroken with the West Indies being able to eventually declare and snatch a draw from the proverbial jaws of defeat. Sobers scored an undefeated 163. Whilst he clearly deserves credit for that, he deserves even greater praise for having coaxed and encouraged his partner to an undefeated maiden Test century of 105 not out. It was the only Test century of Holford's career and would not have possible without Sobers' calming presence.

* Due to the apartheid regime, South Africa were banned from Test cricket at the start of the 1970s. In place of the proposed tour to their country of South Africa in '71/'72, Australia played a Rest of the World side captained by Sobers. In the Third (unofficial) Test at Melbourne, Sobers played an innings of 254 which was described by Bradman as ''probably the greatest exhibition of batting ever seen in Australia''.

* Sobers will probably be best remembered for being the first batsman to hit six sixes in a over in first class cricket. This was achieved in August 1968 when he was captaining Nottinghamshire against Glamorgan in Swansea. The unfortunate bowler was Malcolm Nash. Typically of Sobers when interviewed by cricket writer Grahame Lloyd about the day, he did not criticise Nash's bowling nor talk of his own exploits but spoke of what was really important to him - the game: ''Malcolm tried to do the right thing - he was trying to get me out.'' This tally of 36 runs in an over broke a record of 34 runs that had stood for fifty-seven years and its impact at the time cannot be overestimated. I was on holiday then in the Scilly Isles. In this pre internet age, we had to rely far more on newpaper reports and I still recall one cricket fixated holidaymaker at our guest house going early to the quay to wait for the boat that brought the papers. Ok, the guy was probably a bit of a nutter but it was nonetheless definitely a national talking point. This world record was equalled in 1985 by Ravi Shastri playing for Bombay. However, in the words of Grahame Lloyd, ''It would be 17 years before another batsman would be similarly blessed by the cricketing gods but no subsequent hitting of six sixes in an over would ever be able to match the first one.''

* Sobers' Test average was a mighty impressive 57.78. As a bowler, his stats are not so stunning although in the words of Cricinfo ''he was more than handy with his ability to bowl various styles''. Whilst never taking 10 wickets in a Test match, he took 5 wickets in an innings on six occasions. Particular bowling highlights were at Headingley in 1966 when he returned figures of 5-41 and 3-39 to take West Indies to victory over England by an innings and at the Gabba two years later where his orthodox left-arm spin gave him a second innings haul of 6-73 and the West Indies victory over Australia by 125 runs.

* During his peak as a Test match bowler between January 1961 and December 1968, Sobers took 125 wickets in 33 Tests at an average just under 28. His overall Test bowling average was a shade above 34, still almost 24 less than his batting average. That is bordering statistical freakery. The only past or present player I'm aware of who is on a par is Jacques Kallis of South Africa. For all his strengths of dependability and determination, I don't place Kallis on such a high pedestal as Sobers. For me, Kallis has less of the natural match winning talent and entertaining flair that characterised so much of Sobers' game.

* Far more than Kallis and any other cricketers, Sobers was able to deliver his excellence with bat and ball in the same series. Scoring 300 runs and taking 20 wickets in a Test series is a very considerable achievement. It has only been achieved fifteen times in the entire history of Test cricket. Sobers managed it on three of those occasions, twice against England and once against India. The Australian all rounder Keith Miller did it twice but no one else has achieved it more than once. Ian Botham, Kapil Dev, Richard Hadlee and Shaun Pollock were among those who did it once each. The mighty Imran Khan never managed it and the same still applies to Jacques Kallis.

* As a close to the wicket fielder, Sobers made fielding an artform. For several years, Lance Gibbs was the world's leading Test match wicket taker. A fair number of those wickets were attributable to catches by Sobers. Gibbs readily acknowledged the part played by Sobers, ''His anticipation was incredible.'' In the words, somewhat over ridden with awe, of former West Indies Test batsman Charlie Davis, ''Garry could catch a blur you know. He used to be close at leg slip, at the back pocket of the batsmen, and catch blurs. Once a batsman flicked hard off Lance and Sobers just plucks his hand out and takes it so easily. The batsman couldn't believe it ... He could catch a bur. He is not normal. He is definitely not normal.''

* ''As a captain, Sobers was a mixed bag'' - Cricinfo. I think that is definitely true although I wouldn't condem him too heavily for this. Following initial captaincy success, he was roundly criticised for a declaration against England at Port-of-Spain which resulted in defeat for the West Indies. Whilst Sobers' declaration was overly generous to the away team, he was keen to keep the match alive and believed that gave his own side the best chance of victory. The former West Indies paceman Michael Holding has suggested that Sobers was too respectful towards the abilities of others in his team, ''Perhaps Sir Garfield Sobers thought others within the team had the ability of Sir Garfield Sobers.'' This is rather echoed by Charlie Davis, ''Garry was too modest. He didn't know how special he was. He expected us to bat like him. And catch like him. He thought all of us were like him you know.''

Anyway, that's more than enough from me. Just to finish off with a few comments from others who know much more.

''His stroke range was phenomenal. He had an array of shots and incredible energy. '' - Alan Davidson, Australia Test seam bowler.

''The best ever. You were in awe of him.'' - Cive Lloyd, West Indies batsman and captain.

''The complete all rounder''- Ian Botham, England all rounder and captain.

''The greatest born cricketer probably of them all.'' - Christopher Marin Jenkins, cricket writer.

''Whatever the level, he played it as it was just a game. He was relaxed in everything he did, whatever the situation.'' - Tony Cozier, West Indian cricket broadcaster and writer.

''Forget about all the other things, a great batsman and a great human being.'' - Ian Chappell, Australia batsman and captain.

''A genius. He could do everything. The complete cricketer.'' - Sunil Gavaskar, India captain and opening batsman.

A final comment from Tony Cozier which I consider particularly apt as we seek the ultimate GOAT: ''I have a firm belief that people are put here to do certain things. Like Pele to play football and Ali to box, Sobers was put here to play cricket and he played it magnificently.''

Wayne Gretzky – Championed by Azzy Mahmood

If you’re looking for a G.O.A.T., then look no further than Wayne Gretzky, or as he is more commonly known, ‘The Great One’. Gretzky is the best ice hockey player of all-time, by some considerable distance, with an incredible number of records set during his 20-year NHL career that will never, ever be broken.

In ice hockey there are a wide variety of stats. To make this brief, I’ll only talk about the three main stats – points, goals and assists. Points = goals + assists in case you’re unfamiliar with ice hockey (please do ask questions in the thread, I’m happy to answer them).

Points: Gretzky is the leading point-scorer in NHL history, with 2,857 points. Second-placed Mark Messier has 1,887 points. Only one player in NHL history has scored over 200 points in a single season – which Gretzky did four times. And only Gretzky and Mario Lemieux have ever scored more than 155 points in a season. Points-wise, Gretzky was the greatest player by far.

Goals: Gretzky scored 894 goals in his career, 93 more than second-placed Gordie Howe. He took the 5th most number of shots in history. A devastating stat is that he leads all players in short-handed goals – with 73 – showing that, even playing with the equivalent of 9 men, he was still head and shoulders above the rest. The most number of goals in one season is 92 – by Gretzky. He also has the most number of hat-tricks – 50 in total. As the stats show, Gretzky was the best goal scorer in hockey history.

Assists: Gretzky provided 1,963 assists which, you may notice, is more than any other player has even when combining goals and assists. Even if he had never scored a goal in his career, he’d still lead the points table. That is a measure of just how great Gretzky was.

When Gretzky retired in 1999, he held 40 regular-season records, 15 playoff records, and six All-Star game records. Most of these will never be beaten. He was immediately inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame, waiving the normal 3-year waiting period. The NHL retired his jersey number 99 league-wide, the only player to have had this recognition. If you see a sports player with ‘99’ on his shirt, it is almost certainly a tribute to The Great One.
In terms of peer recognition, Gretzky captured nine Hart Trophies as the league’s MVP, five Lester B. Pearson Awards as the players’ MVP, five Lady Byng Trophies for sportsmanship and performance, and two Conn Smythe Trophies as playoff MVP. During his career he also won four Stanley Cups with the Edmonton Oilers –the ultimate trophy in ice hockey - and led the Los Angeles Kings to the Stanley Cup Finals as well. Following his playing career, he became Executive Director of the Canadian men’s ice hockey team, leading them to Olympic Gold at the 2002 Winter Olympics.
In all of sporting history, no transfer, draft pick or trade has ever caused as much emotional outpouring as ‘The Trade’. On 9 August 1988 Canada was in uproar as Edmonton traded Gretzky to Los Angeles for $15m (at that time, a hefty sum), plus an exchange of other players back-and-forth. Canadian politicians demanded that the Canadian government block the trade, and the owner of Edmonton was vilified to such an extent that his own fans burned effigies of him outside their arena. Gretzky himself was unable to talk at the press conference, such was his love for his team, as he cried in front of hundreds of journalists. The Trade has been referenced in films and on TV ever since.

‘The Trade’ did have one very positive effect. It made California, previously oblivious to ice hockey, stand up and take notice of the sport – Gretzky is often credited with being single-handedly responsible for popularizing the sport in California.

In addition to all this, Gretzky was chosen to be the final torch-bearer at the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver, lighting the cauldron. Nickelback had Gretzky in their video for ‘Rock Star’, and reportedly wouldn’t make the video if they couldn’t get him in it. Gretzky also appears in all the TV adverts for Visit California – a measure of how much he is loved there, that a Canadian sportsman could be an ambassador for their state.

So there it is. I hope this has opened a few people’s eyes to the greatness of Wayne Gretzky, a man who I believe truly is the Greatest Of All Time. He won everything there was to win, he broke every record there was to break, and he made the sport what it is today. There will never be another like Wayne Gretzky.

More bloody cucumber sandwich munchers. Told you this field was too big.

Azzy, that is a fantastic write up for The Great One. He would have had my vote in pretty much any group, but hopefully that will sing it for many people who may not realise just how far above everyone else he was.

I don't even yet know what SR's field would consist of!
Pre 1960's - not competitive enough
Team sport - not individual based
Golf/cricket/darts/snoooker - not athletic enough
Regionalised sports - not global enough

SR I saw you posting first and i new what you were gonna say!!- lol

Good group again..


Gretsky clear goat of his game.. But how global is it.

Franz- one of the best ever football players. But is he the goat of his field.

Sobers top cricketer-and top all rounder- which gives him a massive plus..But i think i would have to pick kallis over him- just- due to his truely impressive bolwing as well as batting.

Bekele holds the 5k and 10k WR's so a goat of his field no doubt..


Going with gretsky this time..

Hero wrote:I don't even yet know what SR's field would consist of!
Pre 1960's - not competitive enough
Team sport - not individual based
Golf/cricket/darts/snoooker - not athletic enough
Regionalised sports - not global enough

dont forget judged sports....

I have never heard of Kenenisa Bekele and I don't know nuffink about footy so can't comment on Mr Beckenbauer. So that leaves Sobers and Gretzky. Great write ups from both posters but Sobers isn't even the best cricketer we have voted on so far. Terrific player but no-where near the GOAT.

That leaves Gretzky as the winner for me quite comfortably. He is a legend in Canada and the greatest in his field. He is a true pioneer in technique as well. Not sure whether Ice Hockey is global enough for the harsher critics on here but, out of this batch, he is the greatest for me.

And as the husband of a Canadian, I have to vote for him. Mrs Windows would leave me in a second if Gretzky hit on her, no matter how old or ugly he became.

His restaurant in Toronto is vastly overrated though.

Seriously though, there are 64 people in this and there have been loads of cricketers, I think that represents the number of cricket devotees on this forum rather than their merit as sport GOATs, surely that so many have been nominated means that most of them can instantly be excluded as a GOAT.

Really well balanced group here. All genuine greats in their field, Gretzky the only undoubted goat of his sport, but the least global of the sports. The others are the best of their disciplines - best cricket all rounder, the best football defender, and probably the greatest distance runner. Tough call, and I can feel splinters.

I'm going for Gretsky. A true unofficial great in his sport.

In terms of the global following of ice hockey, I can say that there are major leagues in Canada/USA, Russia, Germany and Sweden. Then there are lesser calibre leagues in Switzerland, Czech Republic, Italy, the UK, France and Japan.

Aside from those, almost all European countries play ice hockey to some extent (internationally as well as domestically). Mexico, Turkey, Kazakhstan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand, China, South Africa and Mongolia all play the game too. It's not as North America-oriented as American Football, Baseball or Basketball even. It's probably the most global of the four.

super_realist wrote:Seriously though, there are 64 people in this and there have been loads of cricketers, I think that represents the number of cricket devotees on this forum rather than their merit as sport GOATs, surely that so many have been nominated means that most of them can instantly be excluded as a GOAT.

well yeah it does sr..

Bradman is the clear popular choice.

But its still good discussing them- The point of this excercise!!

Tina, never heard of bekele? I feel embarrassed for you!

There have been a few too many Cricketers compared to say Rugby players. Although Gavin Hastings?

Fair point azzy, but am I right that its only really Canada, where its the national sport? Think its a great game myself... Just wish I could see the puck.

Great write up from Guildford on Sir Garfield St. Aubrun Sobers (to play a card often drawn in the Hall of Fame).

A few other things to add:

- He was not the first great West Indian cricketer (that was George Headley, and we also have the '3 Ws'), but he was probably the first great West Indian to become a global star (in Headley's day WI didn't play that often, and weren't considered to be on the same level as England and Australia).
- As Guildford has made clear there have been very few cricketers who have been world class as both batsmen and bowlers. Sobers in one of them. I would rank him amongst the top 10 batsmen of all time, and, as one of very few (Greig was another) to be able to bowl both pace and spin could well make the Hall of Fame purely as a bowler. It should also be noted that his spin consisted of both SLA (orthodox) and chinaman (highly unusual).
- Curiously his worst average as a batsman was against New Zealand (then very weak - the equivalent of Zimbabwe or Bangladesh now). Had he averaged anything like his career average in the 12 Tests he played v NZ he could well have recorded the next best batting average after Bradman in the history of the game.
- He was picked very early, and struggled a bit in his first handful of Tests until the breakthrough world record. If we look only at the 10 or so years making up his peak, his record improves even further. I think this is relevant to this process because we don't judge footballers or tennis players on what they did at the start of their careers. As an example, the fact that Federer didn't get to a Grand Slam semi in his first four years, or has never had much success at a particular tournament isn't taken into account. It seems unfair that with cricketers the temptation is to look at an average including their entire career.

I can't help but think this competition would have been better off with indivdual sports finding their G.O.A.T before different sports going against each other. Therefore when it came to this stage no one could argue about any of the competitors as they would all be the number one in their field, according to the forum of course.

Not knocking the competition as its still great especially for a good debate, just thinking out loud.

I don't really know much about this group, I know Beckenbauer fairly well but he isn't the G.O.A.T footballer. Going from the write ups I might vote for Gretzky.

This one must lie between Gretzky and Sobers. Bekele is an all-time great distance runner, but possibly short of Gebrselassie's longevity, although there wouldn't be much between them. He's one of the elite distance runners, but not clearly the best of them, so I'll pass on him here. Beckenbauer - marvellous sweeper, elegant, successful manager to boot, but far from the dominant figure even of his own era, which featured men such as Pele, Cruyff, Charlton et al. Noteworthy that Beckenbauer and Charlton blotted each other out of the game in the 66 WC final - I find it hard to separate their achievements or impact as players, but neither would seriously enter my calculations for the greatest sportsman.

So, Gretzky or Sobers? Before we hear too much of the old canard about ice-hockey being less than global sport, we can't really claim much more for cricket. The very narrow gap between these two seems to boil down to this - although Kallis is building a statistical case to be ranked the equal of Sobers as an all-round cricketer, no serious authority, to my knowledge, has ever placed him there. Sobers is the non-pareil all-rounder, one of Wisden's 5 cricketers of the 20th century, a match-winner in every department. Gretzky has a huge statistical lead in every ice-hockey category, and yet I have met a number of Canadians who swear blind that he wasn't a greater player than Gordie Howe - that's obviously a matter of taste, but I have heard it often enough from hockey fanatics to give the opinion serious credence.

That's all I have to separate them, really. Gretzky is either 1 or 2 in ice hockey history. Sobers is basically the undisputed number one cricketer of all time. Thin margin, I know, but Sobers for me this time.

milkyboy wrote:Fair point azzy, but am I right that its only really Canada, where its the national sport? Think its a great game myself... Just wish I could see the puck.

It took me a while to follow the play, but once you've got it, there's no game quite like it. I lost my obsessive interest in football the day I watched my first ice hockey game, it cannot compare in any way to the speed, technical ability, and sheer excitement of each and every game. Blows my mind.

I think that countries like Czech Republic, Latvia, Russia, Slovakia, Sweden, Finland and Switzerland consider it as being very close to an official national sport, but they do have sports that vie for that crown. Canada IS ice hockey, like no other country.

QUick thoughts:

Bekele - our 3rd nominated 5k and 10k runner, and I'd put him marginally behind both Zatopek and Gebreselassie in terms of impact on the sport.

Beckenbauer - Maybe the finest all round midfielder and / or sweeper ever. An incredibly cultured player who always looked to have time and space. However, where does he rate overall for footballers - 3rd or 4th for me (Pele, Maradona, arguably Cruyff).

Sobers - Of all cricketers, there has never been anyone with as diverse a skillset. Arguably the finest left handed batsman ever (some would argue for Graeme Pollock), and in his prime a good enough bowler of both seam and spin to justify his selection in the West Indies team in either capacity. In terms of batting all-rounders, only Kallis can even be mentioned in the same paragraph. Would for sure have got my vote in a few groups, although I think in the overall GOAT ratings Bradman's extraordinary career stats make him the cricket GOAT (unless Joe Root continues his rather promising start for England )

Which leaves Gretsky - I don't know all that much about ice hockey (although have been to an NHL game in Calgary), but I know the name Gretsky in the same way as I knew the name Michael Jordan (other than having never owned a pair of Nike Air Gretsky's). Azzy's right-up shows just how extraordinary Gretsky was - his career scoring records are on a different planet from all other NHL players in much the same way as Bradman's batting records or Merckx's cycling ones. Based on this, not only is he easily the GOAT out of this group, for me he should be still in contention when wer are down to the last 8 (maybe 4) candidates.

Ice hockey at NHL level is a fairly strong international sport (played pretty much everywhere there is cold-enough weather), especially since the collapse of Communism (previously the best Russians played as 'amateurs' for the Olympic side), and Gretsky's records shine through.

mystiroakey wrote:

super_realist wrote:Seriously though, there are 64 people in this and there have been loads of cricketers, I think that represents the number of cricket devotees on this forum rather than their merit as sport GOATs, surely that so many have been nominated means that most of them can instantly be excluded as a GOAT.

well yeah it does sr..

Bradman is the clear popular choice.

But its still good discussing them- The point of this excercise!!

Nail hit on head! The field could have been much smaller, but whilst we are going to (hopefully) name a worthy v2 GOAT, the main point of the exercise is to encourage cross-sport debate.

Have seen quite a few people on here argue that various people should not go through as they are not the greatest in their respective sport. Am not too sure I agree with this line of thinking, certain sports have different disciplines within their field such as cricket so is not unreasonable for both a bowler and batsman to make it through. Also don’t see it is unreasonable that a sport with 100’s of years of history and global appeal should end up with more folk through than a fairly localized or niche sport.

That said onto today’s guys and it has to be Gretzky for me, am by no means an ice hockey fan or expert but the very fact I have heard of him suggests he is something special and the write up confirms this. I think there are very few sportsmen who can claim almost universally to be the best in their respective discipline ever with virtually no arguments Wayne appears to be just such a guy and as such deserves to make the cut.

Incidentally, was it not Owens who shaded round 12? It says 25-23 on my screen for voting in Round 12.

Good write ups today. And to praise this process once more, I would have voted Sobers but thanks to the write up have had to go with Gretzky. I knew the name, and I now see why he is so well known.

Ouch. Difficult choice. Sobers or Gretsky? Heart (and a bit of head) says Sobers and in other rounds I think he'd win it but for me, it has to be Gretsky. Probably the one ice hockey player anyone could name.

Gretzky all the way from this lot.

Unfortunately I have no real backing up argument. My view of the top 2 here, his stats in his field versus my opinion that the Kaiser is a long way off best footballer.

Sir G S doesn't cut it IMO either as a GOAT. Perhaps unfairly though due to the proliferation of cricketers in this.

Apologies to athletics fans. Rather embarassingly I had to utilise the worlds most used search engine (the name of which is not a bl00dy verb!) to see who Kenenisa Bekele was. Yes, my fault, but I am using this lack of knowledge to back up my opinion that he isn't GOAT either.

Excellent write-ups today, but Azzy's write up affirmed my original inclination to vote for Gretzky. A close run thing between him and Sobers but I can't ignore Gretzky's stats - just incredible!

Captain, think its hard to make a goat case for a guy who was essentially a stopper, but if charlton and beckenbauer cancelled each other out then it was surely beckenbauer who had done his job. Beckenbauer one of the greats and in the class above charlton for me.

Bekele getting short shrift here I think, his 5k, 10k and cross country record is something else. Gold medals and world records. Unbeaten over 10k for 8 years. His smile isnt as good as gabrselassie's and Sprinters get all the glory, but he's up there with the very best. If he was British, people might have heard of him.

Looks like a Gretzky, sobers battle regardless, Gretzky was to ice hockey what Jordan was to basketball and it wasnt just the goals, even the uneducated like me could see the class of the guy. So I'm removing splinters and going for gretzky

"5k, 10k and cross country record is something else. Gold medals and world records. Unbeaten over 10k for 8 years. His smile isnt as good as gabrselassie's and Sprinters get all the glory, but he's up there with the very best. If he was British, people might have heard of him."


but he isnt MO!!!!!! MO is the man!

In 66, Beckenbauer played as a much more orthodox midfielder, lying perhaps just a bit deeper than Charlton, milky. Hence their battle was waged in the middle third of the pitch for the most part. Their stalemate nullified the creative fulcrums of each side, allowing the contest to be decided, basically, by fitness. England ran harder, for longer, that day.

allowing the contest to be decided, basically, by fitness

... and shoddy officiating.

superflyweight wrote:

allowing the contest to be decided, basically, by fitness

... and shoddy officiating.

Nothing shoddy about a two goal hat trick

Are you referring to that free-kick that shouldn't have been awarded against Jack Charlton in the last minute of normal time, super?!

captain carrantuohil wrote:Are you referring to that free-kick that shouldn't have been awarded against Jack Charlton in the last minute of normal time, super?!

Of course. Scandalous!

CC makes a good point about Beckenbauer - although he is best known for playing as a sweeper in the 1974 West Germany side that won the WC, in 66 and 70 he was a deep-lying midfielder - closest modern equivalent would be Pirlo for Italy: someone who could just knock a simple ball sideways but could also pick a long attacking pass from the deep position or carry the ball forward himself.

England's tactics in the 66 and 70 World Cups were essentially the same - stick Bobby Charlton in the same part of the pitch and let them shadow each other, largely negating the influence of either of them. Unfortunately, in 1970, Ramsey decided to sub Charlton with about 15 minutes to go, releasing Beckenbauer from his defensive duties. The result (allied with Banks's absence through food poisoning and Peter Bonetti forgetting how to catch a cross) was WG coming from behind and winning the QF.

The problem for Beckenbauer in any discussion like this is that he was not even the best player of his generation - doubt many would rate him on a level with Pele, and many will have him behind Cruyff.

milkyboy wrote:Unbeaten over 10k for 8 years.

Just wanted to highlight this in particular. He didn't lose over a specific distance for 8 years, which is virtually the entire prime of a distance athlete. I'm no fan of his, but Bekele is arguably the rival of Gebrselassie and deserves a lot of respect.

A decent group, I confess to knowing virtually nothing of Beckenbauer other than his standing in the game. Sobers is always up there in the cricketing discussions and is yet to be displaced by Kallis or anyone else as the greatest cricketing all-rounder, a position which seems to be a rather dying art these days in the sport. Bekele is clearly a phenomenal runner, cast-iron top five in his sport and at his peak was almost untouchable. He still holds five world records, including 5,000m (indoors and outdoors) and 10,000 (outdoors) - these three have lasted for eight years, and I expect the 10k in particular to hold fast for quite some time to come.

But Gretzky's records are utterly peerless, and he's also generally known as the man who defines his sport. It's notable also that he's considered to be an artist of his sport, with ludicrous agility, speed, tactical nous and puck control - quite similar to Messi's qualities in football, and Gretzky was a similarly marked man in a very tough sport. I can't not vote for the guy, he is a once in a lifetime sportsman. In terms of stats and dominance within his sport, he should probably go a long way in these polls!

milkyboy wrote:Tina, never heard of bekele? I feel embarrassed for you!

Yep, sorry milky I had to google the chap. Says more about my failings than his though, pal. Glad I did though as I now at least have some appreciation of him.

Still nowhere near Gretzky though.

I find some comments on these threads puzzling: people saying "I don't know anything about sport X so won't vote for Y", or "I haven't heard of Z" or even "too many representatives from sport T, so I'm ruling A out". Surely each candidate should be judged purely on merit, not on how many candidates from his sport have been included/made it through. And surely if you've never heard of someone the write-ups give you a fair idea (similarly if you're unsure about a sport they're usually people on here knowledgeable enough to help you out).

mini-rant over, as I'm actually really enjoying these threads.

Onto today's set of candidates.

Bekele: tremendous distance runner, but to my mind behind Zatopek (slightly) in the all-time stakes. I'm not sure how much importance I attach to his world records (distance running records are rarely attempted and depend a huge amount on the pace-setting being right), but unbeaten over his preferred distance for 8 years is some achievement. I would however point out that in the 2004 Olympics he got his tactics badly wrong in the 5000m, choosing to take on El-Guerrouj at the finish rather than give it the long acceleration (El-Guerrouj was always going to have the faster finish of the two).

Beckenbauer: fine footballer though he was, he wouldn't be in my top 5 footballers of all time, so comes some way behind the other three in this debate for me.

Sobers: a tremendous cricketer. The greatest all-round cricketer of all time. The fact we've had a lot of cricketers so far shouldn't deter us from voting for him (personally I don't think Lara or Tendulkar should have been in the list of 64, but hey). Probably the second greatest cricketer behind Bradman.

That leaves Gretsky, and on the strength of his record he seems heads and shoulders above the rest of the ice hockey world (I personally think Ice hockey is a global enough sport for that particular chestnut not to be a concern to me). I do have one question: just how big a competition is the NHL (as that's where his records were set)? i assume they're international Ice hockey competitions (I literally have no idea about the sport), how did he fare in those?

Oh and a purely technical curiosity: what are "short-handed goals"?

MfC: In hockey when someone gets penalised for something, they either get 2 mins or 5 mins in the penalty box depending on infringement, so they're off the ice and their team obviously goes down a man (5 vs 4, 4 vs 3, or even 5 vs 3). It's a huge advantage for the other side, but if the team that's missing a player scores, then it's called a shorthanded goal. The reverse (team with the extra man scores) is a powerplay goal, and as you'd expect is far more common.

That's from memory but I don't think the rules have changed in recent years! Penalties get called a fair bit; things like tripping and cross-checking are reasonably common and get you sent to the box.

I wasn't sure who to choose today. For me it was a choice between either Sobers & Gretzky.

I'd only really heard about them being greats within their sports, without ever seeing stats/records on either of them to back it up.

After seeing the write ups, i'm going to vote for Gretzky. I had no idea he was so far ahead of everyone else to ever have played the sport. His records are unbelievable and probably unsurpassable.

I imagine the effect he's had on the popularity of the sport is immeasureable too. In spite of him playing something of a "minority sport," he's one that will take alot of beating for me for the overall title.

Guildford, a wonderful write up on Sobers, and he sails through for me. Remains cricket's greatest all-rounder, despite a late challenge from Kallis.

Mad, the NHL is the hockey league of USA and Canada. It is by far the biggest league in the world and the standard is superior to international hockey on the whole. The benchmark for Ice Hockey is the NHL.

In ice hockey there are 2 minute 'sin bins' where the penalised team plays a man short. If the penalised team score in that time it is a Short Handed Goal. They are quite rare, but as you can probably imagine are very important momentum changers.

Silver wrote:MfC: In hockey when someone gets penalised for something, they either get 2 mins or 5 mins in the penalty box depending on infringement, so they're off the ice and their team obviously goes down a man (5 vs 4, 4 vs 3, or even 5 vs 3). It's a huge advantage for the other side, but if the team that's missing a player scores, then it's called a shorthanded goal. The reverse (team with the extra man scores) is a powerplay goal, and as you'd expect is far more common.

100% spot on - it's why I likened it to playing with 9 men in football, as being shorthanded means you're basically camped at your own end of the ice desperately trying to block shots. Gretzky scored so many of them - one of those records that will never be surpassed.

Fists of Fury wrote:Guildford, a wonderful write up on Sobers, and he sails through for me. Remains cricket's greatest all-rounder, despite a late challenge from Kallis.

Thanks, Fists.

Following up points made by Mad, I would just add that many of the regulars - myself included - from the cricket board have been slightly surprised to see so many cricketing names already on this thread. If we were to limit it to just two names from that sport (and I would be happy to do so), those names in my view would be Bradman and Sobers.

Enforcer wrote:Mad, the NHL is the hockey league of USA and Canada. It is by far the biggest league in the world and the standard is superior to international hockey on the whole. The benchmark for Ice Hockey is the NHL.

thanks. How about my question re international comps?

Gretzky for me. Struggle to see what Sobers had done that Kallis hasn't already bettered really. I'd probably have Bekele second, very special talent and a shame for him he has dropped off a bit in the past two years , mainly due to injury , but very glad for Mo Farah that he did.

guildfordbat wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Guildford, a wonderful write up on Sobers, and he sails through for me. Remains cricket's greatest all-rounder, despite a late challenge from Kallis.

Thanks, Fists.

Following up points made by Mad, I would just add that many of the regulars - myself included - from the cricket board have been slightly surprised to see so many cricketing names already on this thread. If we were to limit it to just two names from that sport (and I would be happy to do so), those names in my view would be Bradman and Sobers.

I think that'd be fair enough, too, though it is hard to deny the likes of Warne.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:I do have one question: just how big a competition is the NHL (as that's where his records were set)? i assume they're international Ice hockey competitions (I literally have no idea about the sport), how did he fare in those?

The NHL is the pinnacle of ice hockey, as the NFL is in American Football, and the NBA is in basketball. International hockey is played on a different sized rink (larger), which generally slows the game down as players have more ice to themselves and therefore more time to play / think. The NHL is played on smaller rinks, and it's end-to-end constantly. International hockey can get quite bogged down in the middle sometimes.

In terms of Gretzky's international career, it was also stellar. NHL players weren't allowed to participate in the Winter Olympics until 1998, by which time he was in the twilight of his career and Canada were beaten in the semi-final by the eventual winners, Czech Republic.

However that being said, Gretzky was a 3-time winner of the Canada Cup, a tournament held every 3/4 years where the best international teams would play each other. Gretzky led the scoring in all four Canada Cups he played in (81, 84, 87, 91), despite playing with some of the other all-time greats like the afore-mentioned Mark Messier and Mario Lemieux.

His international career wasn't very long - 63 games, 34 goals, 69 assists for a total of 103 points - but it was about as good as you could get in those days.

Before I vote in this can I just check if any of the nominees had any childhood illnesses and if so what procedures or medicines were used to address these ailments.

Fists of Fury wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Guildford, a wonderful write up on Sobers, and he sails through for me. Remains cricket's greatest all-rounder, despite a late challenge from Kallis.

Thanks, Fists.

Following up points made by Mad, I would just add that many of the regulars - myself included - from the cricket board have been slightly surprised to see so many cricketing names already on this thread. If we were to limit it to just two names from that sport (and I would be happy to do so), those names in my view would be Bradman and Sobers.

I think that'd be fair enough, too, though it is hard to deny the likes of Warne.

Personally don't think I've ever seen a guy cause as much havoc on a cricket pitch consistently as Malcolm Marshall did.