v2 G.O.A.T. Round 1 Group 13

First topic message reminder :

Yesterday saw a close run battle in the 12th Group between Messi and Owen for first place with Messi shading it in the end.

Please feel free to submit your own argument below for the ones not championed.


Please vote for the competitor you believe has achieved the most in sport and should progress into the next round.

Please leave a comment as to why you voted.

Garfield Sobers – Championed by GuilfordBat

Before anyone exclaims ''Not another cricketer!'', let me begin with a few words from Harold Pinter, Nobel Prize winning playwright, dramatist and actor. Pinter said, ''I tend to think that cricket is the greatest thing that God ever created on earth - certainly greater than sex, although sex isn'too bad either.''

Now I don't set myself the near impossible task of convincing you of that but I do hope to show you that Garry Sobers was a great cricketing all rounder and sportsman who deserves your vote today. The cricket writer Lawrence Booth described him as ''a master of all trades and jack of none''. In my view, Sobers certainly merits at the least a place at the business end of this contest. Assuming he gets that far, one of his rivals will undoubtedly be Sir Donad Bradman. I make no claim either way today as to whom was the greatest cricketer - that hopefully will be a challenge to come that both will relish. Bradman himself referred to Sobers as ''the five in one cricketer''.

The Don's description referred to Sobers' prowess in batting, fielding and bowling in three distinct styles. This was further explained by the much respected writer, commentator and former Australian captain Richie Benaud: ''Sobers was a brilliant batsman, splendid fielder, particularly close to the wicket, and a bowler of extraordinary skill, whether bowling with the new ball, providing left-arm spin or over-the-wrist spin.'' Benaud added that Sobers was the greatest all-round cricketer the world has seen.''

Garry Sobers was born in Barbados in July 1936. There was perhaps a hint then that there was to be something unusual about him; at birth he had an extra finger on each hand, subsequently removed in early childhood. When Sobers was only five, his father died at sea in WWII when his ship was torpedoed by a U-boat. Despite this tragedy and little money, Sobers generally enjoyed his formative years and excelled in ball sports - football, basketball and especially cricket. At the age of just sixteen he was selected to play for Barbados against the touring India team as a spin bowler and took seven match wickets.

Just one year later Sobers made his Test debut at seventeen. It was the beginning of a Test career that was to last twenty years and bring him 8,032 runs, 235 wickets and 109 catches from 93 matches. With so much Test cricket played today, those stats do not reflect how far ahead of his peers Sobers was. To some extent, I will try and show that. However, it needs to be noted that personal averages were never of concern to Sobers. In the words of the late Tony Greig, ''In my experience, every single thing he did, he did in the interests of the game .... he never thought about averages in any aspect of his game.''

I do not have the time and you do not have the patience for me to list all Sobers' cricketing accomplishments, so just a few to give a flavour of his all round abilities:

* In 1958, he not only scored his maiden Test century against Pakistan in Kingston but went on to amass an undefeated 365 in an innings that lasted over ten hours. It broke the world record Test score of 364 set by England's Len Hutton in 1938. At 21 years and 216 days, he is the youngest player to break the individual scoring record in Tests and remains the youngest triple-centurion. When Sobers' highest individual Test score was finally broken thirty-six years later by Brian Lara, Sobers was at the ground in Antingua to witnesss it and was one of the first to congratulate him.

* Sobers scored another twenty-five centuries in his Test career. Three of these came in the Test series in England in 1966 where he enjoyed spectacular success and was dubbed ''King Cricket''. As the late Christopher Martin Jenkins confirmed, ''he dominated the '66 series''. In the five Tests Sobers scored 722 runs at an average in excess of 103. For me, his greatest batting display that summer was an uncharacteristic innings at Manchester where he reined in his natural attacking instincts to rescue his side from a perilous situation. It has been said on this thread that a true GOAT for all his artistry needs at times to ''guts it out''; this was when Sobers did just that. In their second innings, the West Indies were in desperate trouble at 95-5, leading by just 9 runs. With Sobers at the crease was his young and nervous cousin David Holford in only his second Test. After Holford had played and missed at his first two balls, Sobers went down the pitch and said words to him along the lines of, ''Relax, it's just a game. Now think of how we used to play back home ...''. From there, the tide started to turn. The partnership between Sobers and Holford remained unbroken with the West Indies being able to eventually declare and snatch a draw from the proverbial jaws of defeat. Sobers scored an undefeated 163. Whilst he clearly deserves credit for that, he deserves even greater praise for having coaxed and encouraged his partner to an undefeated maiden Test century of 105 not out. It was the only Test century of Holford's career and would not have possible without Sobers' calming presence.

* Due to the apartheid regime, South Africa were banned from Test cricket at the start of the 1970s. In place of the proposed tour to their country of South Africa in '71/'72, Australia played a Rest of the World side captained by Sobers. In the Third (unofficial) Test at Melbourne, Sobers played an innings of 254 which was described by Bradman as ''probably the greatest exhibition of batting ever seen in Australia''.

* Sobers will probably be best remembered for being the first batsman to hit six sixes in a over in first class cricket. This was achieved in August 1968 when he was captaining Nottinghamshire against Glamorgan in Swansea. The unfortunate bowler was Malcolm Nash. Typically of Sobers when interviewed by cricket writer Grahame Lloyd about the day, he did not criticise Nash's bowling nor talk of his own exploits but spoke of what was really important to him - the game: ''Malcolm tried to do the right thing - he was trying to get me out.'' This tally of 36 runs in an over broke a record of 34 runs that had stood for fifty-seven years and its impact at the time cannot be overestimated. I was on holiday then in the Scilly Isles. In this pre internet age, we had to rely far more on newpaper reports and I still recall one cricket fixated holidaymaker at our guest house going early to the quay to wait for the boat that brought the papers. Ok, the guy was probably a bit of a nutter but it was nonetheless definitely a national talking point. This world record was equalled in 1985 by Ravi Shastri playing for Bombay. However, in the words of Grahame Lloyd, ''It would be 17 years before another batsman would be similarly blessed by the cricketing gods but no subsequent hitting of six sixes in an over would ever be able to match the first one.''

* Sobers' Test average was a mighty impressive 57.78. As a bowler, his stats are not so stunning although in the words of Cricinfo ''he was more than handy with his ability to bowl various styles''. Whilst never taking 10 wickets in a Test match, he took 5 wickets in an innings on six occasions. Particular bowling highlights were at Headingley in 1966 when he returned figures of 5-41 and 3-39 to take West Indies to victory over England by an innings and at the Gabba two years later where his orthodox left-arm spin gave him a second innings haul of 6-73 and the West Indies victory over Australia by 125 runs.

* During his peak as a Test match bowler between January 1961 and December 1968, Sobers took 125 wickets in 33 Tests at an average just under 28. His overall Test bowling average was a shade above 34, still almost 24 less than his batting average. That is bordering statistical freakery. The only past or present player I'm aware of who is on a par is Jacques Kallis of South Africa. For all his strengths of dependability and determination, I don't place Kallis on such a high pedestal as Sobers. For me, Kallis has less of the natural match winning talent and entertaining flair that characterised so much of Sobers' game.

* Far more than Kallis and any other cricketers, Sobers was able to deliver his excellence with bat and ball in the same series. Scoring 300 runs and taking 20 wickets in a Test series is a very considerable achievement. It has only been achieved fifteen times in the entire history of Test cricket. Sobers managed it on three of those occasions, twice against England and once against India. The Australian all rounder Keith Miller did it twice but no one else has achieved it more than once. Ian Botham, Kapil Dev, Richard Hadlee and Shaun Pollock were among those who did it once each. The mighty Imran Khan never managed it and the same still applies to Jacques Kallis.

* As a close to the wicket fielder, Sobers made fielding an artform. For several years, Lance Gibbs was the world's leading Test match wicket taker. A fair number of those wickets were attributable to catches by Sobers. Gibbs readily acknowledged the part played by Sobers, ''His anticipation was incredible.'' In the words, somewhat over ridden with awe, of former West Indies Test batsman Charlie Davis, ''Garry could catch a blur you know. He used to be close at leg slip, at the back pocket of the batsmen, and catch blurs. Once a batsman flicked hard off Lance and Sobers just plucks his hand out and takes it so easily. The batsman couldn't believe it ... He could catch a bur. He is not normal. He is definitely not normal.''

* ''As a captain, Sobers was a mixed bag'' - Cricinfo. I think that is definitely true although I wouldn't condem him too heavily for this. Following initial captaincy success, he was roundly criticised for a declaration against England at Port-of-Spain which resulted in defeat for the West Indies. Whilst Sobers' declaration was overly generous to the away team, he was keen to keep the match alive and believed that gave his own side the best chance of victory. The former West Indies paceman Michael Holding has suggested that Sobers was too respectful towards the abilities of others in his team, ''Perhaps Sir Garfield Sobers thought others within the team had the ability of Sir Garfield Sobers.'' This is rather echoed by Charlie Davis, ''Garry was too modest. He didn't know how special he was. He expected us to bat like him. And catch like him. He thought all of us were like him you know.''

Anyway, that's more than enough from me. Just to finish off with a few comments from others who know much more.

''His stroke range was phenomenal. He had an array of shots and incredible energy. '' - Alan Davidson, Australia Test seam bowler.

''The best ever. You were in awe of him.'' - Cive Lloyd, West Indies batsman and captain.

''The complete all rounder''- Ian Botham, England all rounder and captain.

''The greatest born cricketer probably of them all.'' - Christopher Marin Jenkins, cricket writer.

''Whatever the level, he played it as it was just a game. He was relaxed in everything he did, whatever the situation.'' - Tony Cozier, West Indian cricket broadcaster and writer.

''Forget about all the other things, a great batsman and a great human being.'' - Ian Chappell, Australia batsman and captain.

''A genius. He could do everything. The complete cricketer.'' - Sunil Gavaskar, India captain and opening batsman.

A final comment from Tony Cozier which I consider particularly apt as we seek the ultimate GOAT: ''I have a firm belief that people are put here to do certain things. Like Pele to play football and Ali to box, Sobers was put here to play cricket and he played it magnificently.''

Wayne Gretzky – Championed by Azzy Mahmood

If you’re looking for a G.O.A.T., then look no further than Wayne Gretzky, or as he is more commonly known, ‘The Great One’. Gretzky is the best ice hockey player of all-time, by some considerable distance, with an incredible number of records set during his 20-year NHL career that will never, ever be broken.

In ice hockey there are a wide variety of stats. To make this brief, I’ll only talk about the three main stats – points, goals and assists. Points = goals + assists in case you’re unfamiliar with ice hockey (please do ask questions in the thread, I’m happy to answer them).

Points: Gretzky is the leading point-scorer in NHL history, with 2,857 points. Second-placed Mark Messier has 1,887 points. Only one player in NHL history has scored over 200 points in a single season – which Gretzky did four times. And only Gretzky and Mario Lemieux have ever scored more than 155 points in a season. Points-wise, Gretzky was the greatest player by far.

Goals: Gretzky scored 894 goals in his career, 93 more than second-placed Gordie Howe. He took the 5th most number of shots in history. A devastating stat is that he leads all players in short-handed goals – with 73 – showing that, even playing with the equivalent of 9 men, he was still head and shoulders above the rest. The most number of goals in one season is 92 – by Gretzky. He also has the most number of hat-tricks – 50 in total. As the stats show, Gretzky was the best goal scorer in hockey history.

Assists: Gretzky provided 1,963 assists which, you may notice, is more than any other player has even when combining goals and assists. Even if he had never scored a goal in his career, he’d still lead the points table. That is a measure of just how great Gretzky was.

When Gretzky retired in 1999, he held 40 regular-season records, 15 playoff records, and six All-Star game records. Most of these will never be beaten. He was immediately inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame, waiving the normal 3-year waiting period. The NHL retired his jersey number 99 league-wide, the only player to have had this recognition. If you see a sports player with ‘99’ on his shirt, it is almost certainly a tribute to The Great One.
In terms of peer recognition, Gretzky captured nine Hart Trophies as the league’s MVP, five Lester B. Pearson Awards as the players’ MVP, five Lady Byng Trophies for sportsmanship and performance, and two Conn Smythe Trophies as playoff MVP. During his career he also won four Stanley Cups with the Edmonton Oilers –the ultimate trophy in ice hockey - and led the Los Angeles Kings to the Stanley Cup Finals as well. Following his playing career, he became Executive Director of the Canadian men’s ice hockey team, leading them to Olympic Gold at the 2002 Winter Olympics.
In all of sporting history, no transfer, draft pick or trade has ever caused as much emotional outpouring as ‘The Trade’. On 9 August 1988 Canada was in uproar as Edmonton traded Gretzky to Los Angeles for $15m (at that time, a hefty sum), plus an exchange of other players back-and-forth. Canadian politicians demanded that the Canadian government block the trade, and the owner of Edmonton was vilified to such an extent that his own fans burned effigies of him outside their arena. Gretzky himself was unable to talk at the press conference, such was his love for his team, as he cried in front of hundreds of journalists. The Trade has been referenced in films and on TV ever since.

‘The Trade’ did have one very positive effect. It made California, previously oblivious to ice hockey, stand up and take notice of the sport – Gretzky is often credited with being single-handedly responsible for popularizing the sport in California.

In addition to all this, Gretzky was chosen to be the final torch-bearer at the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver, lighting the cauldron. Nickelback had Gretzky in their video for ‘Rock Star’, and reportedly wouldn’t make the video if they couldn’t get him in it. Gretzky also appears in all the TV adverts for Visit California – a measure of how much he is loved there, that a Canadian sportsman could be an ambassador for their state.

So there it is. I hope this has opened a few people’s eyes to the greatness of Wayne Gretzky, a man who I believe truly is the Greatest Of All Time. He won everything there was to win, he broke every record there was to break, and he made the sport what it is today. There will never be another like Wayne Gretzky.

Its all good Mystir, and your right I have learnt things about some other sports and other sportspeople, and on that I must recognise your own good tuterlage.

On Bradman, for some reason, I have always been indoctrinated with the belief that The don has always been the greatest cricketer and always will be.

I have my doubts that American footballers should be involved given that the entire sport was desgined to teach and replicate outdated American battlefield scenarios.

Until they update it to include touchdowns scored by drone strikes and misplaced field goal attempts that kill every child in a nearby infant school along with the guests at a Muslim wedding, I think it is has to be discounted on the basis of irrelevance.

As for basketball, I'm not voting for anyone unless they measure less than 5'5". Now that's talent. Otherwise you may as well judge a "putting things on high shelves" contest.

For those of you not familiar with boxing weight classes... A superflyweight isn't the biggest category. Not that that has any bearing on the above post. Just if you were wondering.

milkyboy wrote:For those of you not familiar with boxing weight classes... A superflyweight isn't the biggest category. Not that that has any bearing on the above post. Just if you were wondering.

Weighing in somewhere around cruiserweight at the moment, milky. None of it muscle. I would say that has a greater bearing when it comes to someone idly sitting around judging professional athletes.

... Amen to that my fellow keyboard warrior

Can't believe Bekele has been so under-rated here. In some ways he was the Usain Bolt of long distance.

He has 5K and 10K world records, won two consecutive 10K olympics, won 4 consecutive 10K world championships along with a smattering of 5K golds too and was undefeated over 10K for 8 years. He surpassed Gebreselassie in running terms, but not fame or ambassadorial terms.

Farah really can't be discussed in the same breath as Bekele.

Zatopek was great for his time, but things have moved on so much since then - e.g. Bekele would've lapped him twice comparing their best 5K runs and 3 or 4 times for 10K.

yellowgoatboy wrote:Can't believe Bekele has been so under-rated here. In some ways he was the Usain Bolt of long distance.

He has 5K and 10K world records, won two consecutive 10K olympics, won 4 consecutive 10K world championships along with a smattering of 5K golds too and was undefeated over 10K for 8 years. He surpassed Gebreselassie in running terms, but not fame or ambassadorial terms.

Farah really can't be discussed in the same breath as Bekele.

Zatopek was great for his time, but things have moved on so much since then - e.g. Bekele would've lapped him twice comparing their best 5K runs and 3 or 4 times for 10K.

Assuming said laps were between 40-50seconds for the 10k and sub 50 seconds for the 5k. Don't be coming on here with your poor statistical analysis goatboy. Not with Hibbz about.

Yawn hibbz- you are certainly no stat master.. Quick to jump on others for the odd mistake Yes..

Angus Loughran has nothing on me old fruit.

I prefered you when you stuck to my spelling tbh!

I apreciated your assistance!

I gave up on your spelling when you refused to spell Olympics correctly despite the fact the word was plastered on every billboard and in every newspaper the world over.

Be aware though every time you use your when you should use you're still grates.

Oh and just in case it's appreciated xx

Oylmpics isnt phonetically correct hibbz- therefore i have issues...

































yeah i spelt it wrong on purpose

For anyone who's interested, NHL.com is running some video clips of Wayne Gretzky (as they do every year for his birthday). Some amazing clips on there, especially the one of The Trade